knightpraetor
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Oct 20, 2005
- Messages
- 2,321
oh wavedash counts? dang, i didn't think of that as airdodge. Dumb me. And since she can't waveland on she wasn't doing that. bingo thanks a lot mastershake
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- Thread starter Cactuar
- Start date
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Just practice being a homo and you'll be good. Hahah
Bones0
Smash Legend
Says the ICs main. 
D
Deleted member
Guest
yes bones, sacrifice yourself to the great fox god lmao
i also think that sheik vs marth is much closer than the marth mains would like to admit.
i also think that sheik vs marth is much closer than the marth mains would like to admit.
Beat!
Smash Master
Yeah, I also think it's pretty even. Possibly 50-50 in PAL.
SonuvaBeach
Smash Lord
It is easier to complain/john about a matchup when it isn't in your mains favor.
I agree, it is definitely winnable for marth and not that bad. PP's marth showed different ways that marth can be successful vs good sheik's. I wish he could have come to the TBH2 so I could have experienced it first hand.
Sheik does have an easier time killing marth, but if the marth doesn't approach wrecklessly and controls space well it is difficult for the sheik to get in. It's when marth's panic and throw out predictable f-smashes/dashattacks/grabs is when it gets easy for sheik.
EDIT: Exactly what is said above. If marth can corner sheik it is very difficult to get around his neutral game.
Beat!
Smash Master
Haven't played ntsc enough to properly judge the matchup, but I'm not ruling out the possibility.
Yeah Marth's pretty good at juggling.
Yeah Marth's pretty good at juggling.
Bones0
Smash Legend
I'm just gonna go YL and camp my *** off the next time I play ICs.
Beat!
Smash Master
Dtilt, fair, dtilt, don't dashdance all that much (at least not when Nana's still alive), dtilt, start using dash attacks and nairs when their shields are small, dtilt, be patient when edgeguarding and focus on getting them/Popo back off instead of going for 50/50 fsmashes, dtilt, get them up in the air and don't let them down, dtilt... and dtilt.
MasterShake
Smash Lord
Really though.
Dtilt.
Dtilt.
Tee ay eye
Smash Hero
if you think dtilt will solve the ICs matchup for you, you're not going to come close to beating wobbles
it's a great move vs them, but they can definitely work around it
it's a great move vs them, but they can definitely work around it
Tee ay eye
Smash Hero
you won't beat wobbles
....because he's not going to enter a tourney
....because he's not going to enter a tourney
D
Deleted member
Guest
kevin: see how they respect and fear you. you have done well, my son.
Bones0
Smash Legend
I'll be impressed when I see him beating M2K or KK's Sheik.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
He did beat my Sheik >.>
Friendlies but like still...
Friendlies but like still...
Beat!
Smash Master
The only time I've seen them (M2K and PP) play the matchup (at G6 2), PP got 2-stocked, high %.
Example set:
Group 1[Starters]: Final D, Battlefield, FoD
Group 2[Counters]: Yoshi's Story, Pokemon Stadium, Dreamland 64
Group 3[Moderate Counters]: Mute City, Brinstar, DK64
Group 4[Extreme Counters]: Corneria, Rainbow Cruise, Jungle Japes
Players pick a starter as normal ie 1-2-2-1.
Winner of round 1 strikes one group.
Loser picks one group, striking the rest of the groups.
Winner strikes one stage in group.
Loser picks a stage from the remaining stages.
Players play match. When finished, start the CP process over.
Additional/Optional Rule: Group DSR- You may not go back to a group you have already won on in the set unless agreed upon.
Uses the stage list from: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=89506
Initial impressions are nice, but what I would love are the thoughts of someone who would give it/gave it a shot.
We have only played once since I improved with Marth/in general and it was last stock both of us at 0 running towards each other on FD and then the person turned off his cube like a butthole LOLHe has already beaten m2kings sheik I believe.
1 game and then emo friendlies doesn't count for much XD
I also think I know the matchup better than you(or did anyway), but to be fair you've never really needed to know it. It'll be more interesting when we play again I'm pretty sure.
long time ago, I'm wayyyy better now. m2k and I friendlied at impulse and it was mad serious.
no time for this now, tomorrow/sunday I got you.
Example set:
Group 1[Starters]: Final D, Battlefield, FoD
Group 2[Counters]: Yoshi's Story, Pokemon Stadium, Dreamland 64
Group 3[Moderate Counters]: Mute City, Brinstar, DK64
Group 4[Extreme Counters]: Corneria, Rainbow Cruise, Jungle Japes
Players pick a starter as normal ie 1-2-2-1.
Winner of round 1 strikes one group.
Loser picks one group, striking the rest of the groups.
Winner strikes one stage in group.
Loser picks a stage from the remaining stages.
Players play match. When finished, start the CP process over.
Additional/Optional Rule: Group DSR- You may not go back to a group you have already won on in the set unless agreed upon.
Uses the stage list from: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=89506
Initial impressions are nice, but what I would love are the thoughts of someone who would give it/gave it a shot.
Mad serious.
Beat!
Smash Master
Yeah, I kinda figured.
MAD
F*** YOU GUYS WE WERE GONNA KILL EACH OTHER IRL
and neko sure if you want =)
and neko sure if you want =)
Beat!
Smash Master
holy **** 17 people viewing
SUP GUESTS
SUP GUESTS
my expectations are that an increased stage list breaths more life into the game through the essence of variety and also increases the potential amount of scenarios and situations in which challenging settings are introduced to either the winning player or both the losing and winning player. I'm also hoping that new tricks and strategies are realized and/or more commonly used as players master the reappearing stages. Tactics that were deemed too good back in the day become normalized or nullified or toned down due to the higher quality meta that exists today as well as the higher skill ceiling and skill floor that exists. I'm truly hoping that most imporantly, the CP advantage is toned down / normalized, and "skill" as a general term more fully encompassing of Smash Bros through the mastery and knowledge of more stages being legalized once again. So that the player with more skill isn't just the one with the better character and more match up knowledge, but with stage knowledge and higher levels of adaptation that are needed with the current system, and the ability to prevent bans and counters from truly affecting them so matches are more dependent on the player due to the intensity of the striking in this system.
Bones0
Smash Legend
1. For whatever reason, it introduces a bunch of bad stages that make it virtually impossible for some characters to win. Unless Ganon can ban all of the large stages, Fox is just going to time him out every time. Even if Ganon can ban all of the large stages, the fact that he is forced to use his ban the same way every time doesn't increase the depth of cps or the game at all. It makes the game MORE about how good your character is instead of how good the player is.
2. A ridiculous number of stages doesn't encourage knowing matchups. It encourages knowing gimmicks. With so many jank stages, players will be losing to dumb camping strategies well into the third round of pools because they've literally just never seen it before. It's hard enough for me to compete with limited human practice, but at least all of the neutrals are based around core concepts of spacing and stage control. No one can possibly prepare for every matchup on every stage, which just means the results will feel more random. You can just say that someone's cute little campy tactic on a certain stage is just part of the metagame, but that doesn't change the fact that everyone will just quit before they try to learn a million camping gimmicks so they can actually engage an opponent who has a deep strategy.
3. The stages are just too random and can easily influence who wins. Mute City car zooms by, hits you as you try to tech, you lose. Brinstar lava rises and saves your opponent and they come back and win. You can account to a certain extent for these random occurrences, but at some point you're just at the will of the stage. If you wanted to combo someone and a stage hazard got in the way, you can be smart enough to preemptively end your combo, but that doesn't change the fact that the stage just stole a would-be KO if it had come up a few seconds later.
4. It's a logistical nightmare. Project: M uses the same thing, and they have to have a sheet printed out with all of the cps or a mod on the screen that indicates which maps are which. Trying to introduce new players in this environment is nearly impossible, and that's not to mention those new players are going to be losing to boring, not fun, lame tactics for months on end before they can even begin to deal with them. Who's going to put in the time to play that kind of game?
2. A ridiculous number of stages doesn't encourage knowing matchups. It encourages knowing gimmicks. With so many jank stages, players will be losing to dumb camping strategies well into the third round of pools because they've literally just never seen it before. It's hard enough for me to compete with limited human practice, but at least all of the neutrals are based around core concepts of spacing and stage control. No one can possibly prepare for every matchup on every stage, which just means the results will feel more random. You can just say that someone's cute little campy tactic on a certain stage is just part of the metagame, but that doesn't change the fact that everyone will just quit before they try to learn a million camping gimmicks so they can actually engage an opponent who has a deep strategy.
3. The stages are just too random and can easily influence who wins. Mute City car zooms by, hits you as you try to tech, you lose. Brinstar lava rises and saves your opponent and they come back and win. You can account to a certain extent for these random occurrences, but at some point you're just at the will of the stage. If you wanted to combo someone and a stage hazard got in the way, you can be smart enough to preemptively end your combo, but that doesn't change the fact that the stage just stole a would-be KO if it had come up a few seconds later.
4. It's a logistical nightmare. Project: M uses the same thing, and they have to have a sheet printed out with all of the cps or a mod on the screen that indicates which maps are which. Trying to introduce new players in this environment is nearly impossible, and that's not to mention those new players are going to be losing to boring, not fun, lame tactics for months on end before they can even begin to deal with them. Who's going to put in the time to play that kind of game?
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
PP is so gracious when he wrecks me. I remember ROM3 when he ***** me in LFs and then waited with me for the ambulance. Even held my hand and made sure my sheets were comfortable before going up to face M2K.
What a gentleman!
What a gentleman!
LOL not this again!
BBoyindo
Smash Ace
Sup guys. I have my first tournament ever tomorrow. Any tips?
@Bones: I have part of a response queued up, but I'll have to finish it later since i have had 2-3 hours of sleep in the past 40ish hours, so lol.
Some of your points only apply to the example set and some other ones can be allivated by slight tweaks tho. I'll get into that later.
Some of your points only apply to the example set and some other ones can be allivated by slight tweaks tho. I'll get into that later.
Bones0
Smash Legend
The best tip is to always tip.
666 posts. That's good luck!
@Neko
I didn't even look at the example set. lol I just know that any time you make bad stages an option in stage selection, you are compromising the integrity of the competition regardless of whether or not they get played on. Even if you do something like put all of the non-neutrals in a single group and let players ban them, you're still just forcing some characters to waste their ban. If you are insistent on redefining the way we look at stage selection (and I'd say I'm pretty open to new ideas), I suggest you do it with the 6-stage list because most people don't really "respect" anything other than that at this point in the game's timeline.
I also don't like the whole chunk-banning because it arbitrarily takes control away from the players. Striking out full from a list is always going to result in a more "fair" stage than having each player strike a chunk of stages that are arbitrarily grouped together. Even if you put all the large stages together and all the small stages together, you're just creating a player-controlled construct and forcing it into Melee's metagame. This leaves the game exposed for potential biases. People will be arguing about what stages should be in each chunk, and you'll have some chunks favoring certain characters. Then people will get upset that there is a chunk that gives one character super cps, and they'll try to balance the game.
666 posts. That's good luck!
@Neko
I didn't even look at the example set. lol I just know that any time you make bad stages an option in stage selection, you are compromising the integrity of the competition regardless of whether or not they get played on. Even if you do something like put all of the non-neutrals in a single group and let players ban them, you're still just forcing some characters to waste their ban. If you are insistent on redefining the way we look at stage selection (and I'd say I'm pretty open to new ideas), I suggest you do it with the 6-stage list because most people don't really "respect" anything other than that at this point in the game's timeline.
I also don't like the whole chunk-banning because it arbitrarily takes control away from the players. Striking out full from a list is always going to result in a more "fair" stage than having each player strike a chunk of stages that are arbitrarily grouped together. Even if you put all the large stages together and all the small stages together, you're just creating a player-controlled construct and forcing it into Melee's metagame. This leaves the game exposed for potential biases. People will be arguing about what stages should be in each chunk, and you'll have some chunks favoring certain characters. Then people will get upset that there is a chunk that gives one character super cps, and they'll try to balance the game.