Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Dr Peepee]

yeah i agree with m2k; you can just l cancel and dash away..no need for the waveland..i like fair waveland vs jiggs and floaties occasionally to waveland to a new spacing and fsmash instantly...but I'm not 100% consistent with the waveland.

mango styles nonstop so i don't think that is a good judge..what was he covering with fair waveland that he couldn't do with a dash back. obviously the ability to fsmash/ftilt/do ground moves if they move towards him. So in that sense I guess it's ok..though with marth's grabgame you don't need it that often. maybe we should try to see if we can bait moves out and reactively fsmash (why i like it vs floaties)..but other than that usually a grab is as good as a ground move from marth in most matchups.

"SH WL dash back grab? What have you been able to get with that? I never even thought about that lol I'm curious."

pp, you need to watch more of m2k's old vids. there is a reason people don't just come up to the ledge point blank against him.

waveland on fox feels dumb and boxed out at the ledge, either fsmash pushing them off onto the ledge or just run up grab...how broken is that.

i should play around with nairing on vs jiggs sometime...i think i rarely do it cause mahone just spaces me out...I try to mix it up with DJ waveland down though..but since jiggs is in the air, maybe just double jump and land near the edge and fair if they come in is better..since unlike fox she can't come in quite as fast

i'm still not sure what the big deal is with shield stopped fair. you shield.. Everyone keeps trying to act as if shield stopped fair is any different than telling someone to just approach with shield. last i checked i've been able to fair out of shield for 2 years, and have been approaching with shield just as long. Not sure what all the hype is about to be honest. I do think I need to play around with it vs sheik as her dash attack is pretty scary on the ground.

also i don't have a sing videoa nd haven't tested it, so feel free to test it. I have played around with seeing max distance sing grab while trying out jiggs..and i am pretty sure it's out of dair range..however, that max distance one is dangerous as hell..i don't think jiggs will start doing that..the people i see try for sing cancel ledgegrab do it very close to the ledge where they could be spiked.

When do you like to Fair waveland vs floaties to Fsmash? I'd be so afraid to whiff on either of those characters I don't know when I'd even want to try it. <.<


Can you give me an example in an old video? Or at least explain to me what kind of things he stopped with that trick? I've watched some old M2K and didn't see that I think.

The range is still worth testing on sing grab, and eventually I could find a range that gets a free punish if they try to keep a safe spacing or do whatever as well. Marth's edgeguards on Puff are tight and should be exploited so much more than they are imo. Puffs get everything TOO easily right now.

I like the Jiggs talk. I have been seriously struggling with the matchup lately and would love to entertain any and all ideas haha.

PP what is your ideal spacing against Puff in the neutral game? I know it's always changing because of how Marth has to be DD/WDing to adjust spacing and Puff is going to be floating around, but I was wondering what you thought the ideal spacing is. I have some of my own thoughts but I want to know what you think first lol.

Just outside of Bair range. That range is the safest because Puff can't touch you then unless she wants to run into your sword lol. Eventually she's gotta run away or risk touching it as it comes out anyway.

I don't stay in that range long at all btw.

i want to talk about this one. ZOMG Puff's fair out of shield reaches tooo far. Just saying, i only want to comment on the spacing to give puff on the ground. my favorite spacing is like 1.5 X how much i would give a fox to be out of range of bair out of shield. puff has really good mobility. obviously moving inside this range to bait the puff is fine, but just don't try to dashdance too close. Most people who aren't familiar with the matchup underrate her aerial mobility.

also, i'm not really whining about puff's spacing...once she lands in this matchup she's at a disadvantage unless you are very close to the edge and can't get enough space to get out of range.

on a side note: M2k likes fair into retreating nair..and i love it too..but isn't it just strictly speaking slower at coming out than fair? despite that everyone i've met seems to like it more than retreating fair. I think it's cause CC is less of an issue, but also it's cause nair is easy to AC. WHy can't people just rising retreating fair AC run away...but they miss the fastfall timing and stuff like that..

I guess another possible reason is nair has more stuff right? so since retreating moves can't combo properly.. you want to have as much stun as possible so you get frame advantage and pressure afterwards


also this line by PP keeps confusing me:
That "hands hit by Puff Bair" thing should never happen because you should only swing on the outside of Puff's range to be safe or try to challenge her landing if you're closer. Swinging and guessing is dumb and of course gets you *****.

When i swing I'm either in range in which case it is impossible to miss, or the jiggs hit me by approaching with an aerial before i swung. I'm wondering if maybe you are talking about rising fair just out of range so the jiggs runs into it. I haven't tried that, it seems easier to just dodge if you think they are coming in...throwing out a move in their path sounds like a peach strat

Yo Puff's Fair OOS is mad good. I dunno why more Puffs don't do that. All about shooting buttfeet at people now.

The thing about Puff's aerial mobility is it is attached to some crappy jumps first of all. More importantly, people only like going backwards with that character for the most part so they lose out on the going forward mixup that is hard to react to. That character plays at the perfect pace to lull someone into following her rhythm, and she just decides to run away with it instead of trick them into wondering when she will attack. I don't understand.

Nair also comes out at a great angle and is stronger than Fair I think? I don't know how to AC Fair and I'm not even sure how safe or laggy that is. Good idea though I keep thinking about it and never implement it. Maybe I'll do it now haha.

If Puff comes in then dodge/DD Nair. If she spaces then swing.

I asked about fair-waveland just to see what other people did with it. I've been wanting to experiment with it. Specifically I want to get a grab by the ledge and do uthrow -> reverse SH fair -> waveland off dair. :D

I asked about shieldstop fadeaway fair cause it just goes soooooooo far back. It just blows my mind every time I do it. OMG now I just thought about trying dash back shield stop bair (drifting towards them).


I think I focus way too much on tricks instead of getting good first.

Tricks and creativity are good, but if you don't also build your foundation first(and foremost) then the tricks are pretty useless.

That said, I doubt I'd think about stuff like shield stopped aerials if people like you(and Leffen iirc) didn't suggest them. It takes all kinds to make the world go round haha.

 

[knightpraetor]

"so if I DTilt, they can pop up and punish me."

this makes no sense..jigg's CC on dtilt is horrendously bad. even if you poorly space your dtilt you can often get off another before they do anything unless they are in grab range...and max range dtilt doesn't do that...if they pop up slightly i would fair them afterwards but they would have to smash DI up to do that.

what puffs are you playing anyway?? but regardless, PP even wrecked hbox, so probably if you just watched some decent marths play vs puff you'd realize camping doesn't do much.

"Most of the time, I'll try approaching them and they're in the air ready to BAir me."
throw a move in the way of their approach that has low lag or dodge and punish then? honestly most marths i see just run at the jiggs and sh fair at them while the jiggs jumps backwards and bairs them repeatedly. SH approaching falling fair isn't that bad, but it loses to retreating bair. if i'm going to use those i time them when the jiggs is airborne. a cute trick after you've hit them a few times with that is to just wait for their bair as they land and then run in and grab them afterwards.




@PP (btw is there a good way to quote multiple people?)
"When do you like to Fair waveland vs floaties to Fsmash? I'd be so afraid to whiff on either of those characters I don't know when I'd even want to try it. <.<


Can you give me an example in an old video? Or at least explain to me what kind of things he stopped with that trick? I've watched some old M2K and didn't see that I think.

The range is still worth testing on sing grab, and eventually I could find a range that gets a free punish if they try to keep a safe spacing or do whatever as well. Marth's edgeguards on Puff are tight and should be exploited so much more than they are imo. Puffs get everything TOO easily right now.
"

umm, i like fair waveland backwards when i really need a kill and am willing to risk losing stage to do it (think FD, dreamland, PS only). All you need is a prediction of jiggs coming in as you land (very common for them to want to pressure you after you whiff a fair[do you even whiff fairs pp lol]). you waveland back and reactively fsmash/ftilt as wanted. if they tend to play high this is very good. if they play low then probably they wavedashed in after the whiffed fair but you could still dtilt instead. from my testing waveland tricks selectively used seemed really strong..but missing the waveland....was prohibitively costly at times (marth keeps this matchup fair by prevening jiggs from hitting a super close spacing..whiffing a waveland is a very fast way to allow jiggs in range for upairs, uptilts and the accompanying rests)

fair waveland forward gets a lot more use I think. to get this one you first have to make jiggs really really dislike landing in front of you.. if they start dodging your fair ftilt or seem to think that you are going for fair fsmash they may try to give you even more range. For example, you whiff the fair, they dodge back with a sh but aren't in range of a bair.....come to think of it, rather than whiffing the fair i usually just fake a fair and just waveland..but whatever

but assuming they were fading out and in danger of ftilt/fsmash they may try to retreat with a second jump as opposed to landing and shielding...this is when waveland forward is good. if they just land...you already have the advantage and they will probably shield out of fear of an ftilt/fsmash at high percent. (i prefer ftilt to keep them honest as fsmash is risky....but this is when i've been practicing vs jiggs and can actually space ftilt properly..i'm not a pro so when i play other matchups i don't get enough ftilt practice and start to get bad at it. Ftilt needs more uses at neutral vs spacies so i stop getting rusty)

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Marth vs puff seems pretty even, if not slightly in marth's favor. Its a boring match-up, but not a bad one.

 

[knightpraetor]

a few random notes for any readers. obviously if you read my prior post on falling approaching fair and noted that pp doesn't really use it very much and that I don't use it except on airborne jiggs you are probably wondering. Why not just overshoot your falling aerials on grounded opponents? it's what lots of characters do in other matchups. The answer is the risk to reward is not good enough, you may get a combo for several hits if you do an overshot falling aerial, if you're wrong and the opponent attacked while you were trying to overshoot you could eat upair (upair leads to the dark syde).

also more importantly you can overshoot while moving on the ground and overshoot a rising fair instead. An overshot rising fair if punished in advance leaves you on the ground, with your option to CC, and almost no risk of upair

anyway i posted a lot more tips than i expected cause pp was already posting a lot of useful stuff and i wanted to contribute. in general i try not to make mahone's life harder, but i realized that 95 % of marths won't give him much trouble anyways..they are just too bad. He will just go beat nova again i bet..except this time with that mario he's been training

 

[Dr Peepee]

"so if I DTilt, they can pop up and punish me."

this makes no sense..jigg's CC on dtilt is horrendously bad. even if you poorly space your dtilt you can often get off another before they do anything unless they are in grab range...and max range dtilt doesn't do that...if they pop up slightly i would fair them afterwards but they would have to smash DI up to do that.

what puffs are you playing anyway?? but regardless, PP even wrecked hbox, so probably if you just watched some decent marths play vs puff you'd realize camping doesn't do much.

"Most of the time, I'll try approaching them and they're in the air ready to BAir me."
throw a move in the way of their approach that has low lag or dodge and punish then? honestly most marths i see just run at the jiggs and sh fair at them while the jiggs jumps backwards and bairs them repeatedly. SH approaching falling fair isn't that bad, but it loses to retreating bair. if i'm going to use those i time them when the jiggs is airborne. a cute trick after you've hit them a few times with that is to just wait for their bair as they land and then run in and grab them afterwards.




@PP (btw is there a good way to quote multiple people?)
"When do you like to Fair waveland vs floaties to Fsmash? I'd be so afraid to whiff on either of those characters I don't know when I'd even want to try it. <.<


Can you give me an example in an old video? Or at least explain to me what kind of things he stopped with that trick? I've watched some old M2K and didn't see that I think.

The range is still worth testing on sing grab, and eventually I could find a range that gets a free punish if they try to keep a safe spacing or do whatever as well. Marth's edgeguards on Puff are tight and should be exploited so much more than they are imo. Puffs get everything TOO easily right now.
"

umm, i like fair waveland backwards when i really need a kill and am willing to risk losing stage to do it (think FD, dreamland, PS only). All you need is a prediction of jiggs coming in as you land (very common for them to want to pressure you after you whiff a fair[do you even whiff fairs pp lol]). you waveland back and reactively fsmash/ftilt as wanted. if they tend to play high this is very good. if they play low then probably they wavedashed in after the whiffed fair but you could still dtilt instead. from my testing waveland tricks selectively used seemed really strong..but missing the waveland....was prohibitively costly at times (marth keeps this matchup fair by prevening jiggs from hitting a super close spacing..whiffing a waveland is a very fast way to allow jiggs in range for upairs, uptilts and the accompanying rests)

fair waveland forward gets a lot more use I think. to get this one you first have to make jiggs really really dislike landing in front of you.. if they start dodging your fair ftilt or seem to think that you are going for fair fsmash they may try to give you even more range. For example, you whiff the fair, they dodge back with a sh but aren't in range of a bair.....come to think of it, rather than whiffing the fair i usually just fake a fair and just waveland..but whatever

but assuming they were fading out and in danger of ftilt/fsmash they may try to retreat with a second jump as opposed to landing and shielding...this is when waveland forward is good. if they just land...you already have the advantage and they will probably shield out of fear of an ftilt/fsmash at high percent. (i prefer ftilt to keep them honest as fsmash is risky....but this is when i've been practicing vs jiggs and can actually space ftilt properly..i'm not a pro so when i play other matchups i don't get enough ftilt practice and start to get bad at it. Ftilt needs more uses at neutral vs spacies so i stop getting rusty)

I don't know of a good way to do it, sorry!

As a kill setup? Seems dangerous and I'm rarely okay with giving up stage, but that seems like a nice mixup tactic once in a while, especially considering I don't really whiff Fairs so it could be seen as a weakness to pounce upon haha.

So Fair waveland forward Ftilt? I didn't even think that was a good idea, and I'd rather just observe and then take stage and attack but a trick like that probably is a tricky mixup I could afford to use instead haha.

I don't really like Ftilt vs Fox unless I'm WD'ing/sometimes walking into his DD or he's on a platform on certain stages but Falco gets the Ftilt a lot from me if I'm spacing properly(lasers become tough then).

 

[knightpraetor]

yeah i hate ftilt vs fox. i would like to see you use ftilt vs falco though..could always use a new trick.

also, don't think of waveland forward as being something you have to commit too in advance. just take note if they are retreating a lot with those extra jumps instead of landing in front of you and just react and waveland forward. obviously you could just land and dash forward, but now you have the option of tagging them with kill moves if they don't land quickly.. this promotes landing...grounded jiggs is a good thing

but again, this isn't necessary, if they don't land you can pressure them with fair like normal as well...it's just an extra option and a way to set up kills a little earlier

also none of this will work until they are running scared..i bet hbox would probably have to get punished by you for two or 3 sets before he started weaving out a second jump instead of landing..but i dunno i haven't watched him play vs marth much.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Mhhmm I feel skeptical about it at first but when I think about fighting Twitch he usually either jumps high over most approaches or at least DJs over them so this would be a cool way to slide into a move or suddenly pressure him.

why not use another movement trick? why not be harder to read? if I have advantage I should milk it in as many ways as possible, and this doesn't seem bad provided I have the appropriate read.

Edit: yeah I'm not sure if I'd use the forward version on Hbox(maybe back though) but it's still good information as a general matchup tip.

 

[knightpraetor]

yeah, correct me if i'm wrong but reverse waveland should have its places because landing lag is 4 frames, but when you waveland you don't have 4 frames of lag then the waveland..the waveland starts immediately..so there are definitely places you could dodge with waveland where you could not have dodged otherwise. (same with wavelanding out of falco's lasers to avoid getting daired).

that said the forward one is very situational..really just a good way to get better pressure if the jiggs tends to use multiple jumps a lot before landing and in particular doesn't like landing too close to you.

 

[Bob Money]

I WROTE THIS IN 2010-1 SO TAKE IT WITH A GRAIN OF SALT!

alright, having played King, for awhile I'll give my take on Jigglypuff. Feel free to disagree.

First of all. She is not top tier.

1. If you as a player have Better spacing skills than your Jigglypuff opponent 80 % of the time you will win if you don't make some bad choices with DI and laggy moves to rest.

This first point is important.. Why do you loose to puff? Because your spacing sucks or isn;t as good as the puff players. If you get hit its your own ****ing fault, jiggly has no projectiles and her move set is very predictable. Now I'm not saying I'm god vs Puff but I notice how people space vs Puff and you can tell they will loose because the jiggs player is flat out better at spacing. The same is true for ANY matchup/match. If your a weaker player in the spacing dept. You should loose anyway. So before you complain about puff, ask yourself this.
''Is this player better at spacing than I am?'' For Hbox and Mango 9/10x They are better at spacing than their opponents.

azen is a prime example of a player in which his superior spacing game makes match ups look impossible or winnable.

Hbox/mango are simply better at spvcing than most smash players. IF you don't believe me look at tournament results.

2.Jiggly Puffs approach game is horrible

If you have a lead on jigglypuff she must go after you. So many players do not exploit jigglys slow movement speed. Jiggly wins by capitalizing off mistakes and poor decisions.
If you approach Puff the chances of you making a mistake rise considerably. I'm not saying Never approach Jiggs, but players need to exploit jiggs weak approach game.

The game changes vs Jiggs. you must learn how to zone vs this character. This goes to my first point. FOOTSIES.

3. Being impatient. PLaying vs Jiggs is an endurance race not a waveshine to 80 to upsmash race. Yes your jab will kill jigglypuff at 999 % . Basically as long as you have better spacing one of your moves will kill eventually.


Yeah dont be at back air range, be in Tip fair/ little closer than jab range and you want to mix up your timing alot/condition. Obviously WD out of shield is godlike in this matchup. WAVEDASH BACK FSMASH ***** When Jiggs shield is running lowish because the percentage of it hitting goes up alot! Its all about understanding when Jiggs "has" to do something. She HAS to approach if you have a lead, SHE has to wait for you to miss a laggy move if shes too high to trade., You gotta understand the other persons/characters mentality when they are at certain percents. This matchup is probably evenish on a big stage because eventually marth cant kill and gets hit. But jiggs within fair range is somewhat easy to deal with because you dont let her turn her back to you and if she does Understand what shes looking for. Matchup is basic spacing/lag management just in the air.

PP did Hbox ever use counter hit pounds on your marth? That really ****s up marth but its somewhat of a read and not guarenteed, so i doubt he did that.

 

[knightpraetor]

i will be embarrassed if you say yes, PP and it resulted in a gimp...I definitely die to those occasionally but every time it's cause i was playing aggressive against jiggs at the ledge. it's only really embarassing though if you took it airborne because that means you took an unnecessary risk. you should be grounded and only take the pound because you were choosing to attack right as the jiggs guessed and pounded and you should have time to get decent DI.


anyway, for PP/M2k or whoever. Does anyone know chaingrab percents on falcon. I'm so disappointed. I lost my list that had all the percents for upthrow on falcon (falcon can jump out though so it's of limited usefulness but in particular certain percents I think uptilt may be guaranteed on some DIs and maybe even regrab. I assume on neutral DI they can just always jump though..falcon isn't that good at getting down vs marth though. ah well, when i get back in fall i will just remake my list..but i've been working on techchasing falcon so much that i stopped playing around with upthrow. i couldn't even tell you how it compares to techchasing. I prefer techchasing falcon cause it sets up for offstage easier even though upthrow sets up for damage a lot easier. also falcon's tech moves aren't that great.

SO marth players: vote, vs falcon center stage...upthrow or others(fthrow/dthrow).

I'm just curious what marth players favor vs falcon.. it's probably the only matchup i am struggling to decide which throw to take in.

 

[Metal Reeper]

I was playing the other day and I did a SH fair>waveland back. As the fair hit Falco's shield he rolled into me and I wavelanded just behind him and i grabbed the **** out of him lol. Im doing this more often.

 

[Dr Peepee]

@Bob$: What is a counterhit pound? I may have gotten hit by one once but I don't think I did. Hbox rarely pounded against my Marth as it was.

@KP: I used to know the CG %s but don't now. I wanna say it's something in the neighborhood of late 30s to mid 40s, and then you can Upthrow Fair out of it(which is amazing and stupid). The Fair tippers if they DI much at all iirc and you can do the combo for quite a while(until Uthrow Fsmash %s anyway which I think is 75%+???).

I do Fthrow or Dthrow below 10%(depends on position relative to the edge and where I think their DI will go and conditioning etc). After 10% until the Upthrow Fair %, I like to Fthrow more because it's less lag for me to chase(unless I'm closer to the edge).

 

[Winston]

vs. Falcon I uthrow them once they're in combo range. Before then I fthrow/dthrow techchase until they end up under a platform and I can throw them onto the platform and do up attacks >_> That might sound silly since fthrow/dthrow is supposed to be guaranteed-ish, but it works out better for me. Even when I'm on point its hard for me to get the reactions better than like 80%.

If it's FD and I'm not feeling confident in reactions and I can't combo off uthrow yet (like 20% or something), sometimes I try uthrow -> sh uair to try to catch their jump. Like if they DI forward (most common for some reason), uthrow -> dash forwards short hop uair catches their jump really well, and from there they should literally be dead since any move that sends them offstage, no matter how weak, kills them without their jump.

I was playing the other day and I did a SH fair>waveland back. As the fair hit Falco's shield he rolled into me and I wavelanded just behind him and i grabbed the **** out of him lol. Im doing this more often.

See the problem with that is... you did an early aerial on his shield... meaning he could have just hit you oos. (unless you were doing it retreating, but that just lets him out of the pressured situation.)

 

[Niko45]

all throw stuff is technically escapable at points where they can edge cancel on platforms or slide to edge on fthrow/dthrow which is a lot of the time. its really easy to do too so I wouldn't worry about whats more guaranteed or not but rather just get them off stage if ever possible honestly. I see too many up throws near ledges where a dthrow would ****.

altho up throw when facing outward is a good mixup cause if they DI out (which you can condition from fthrow dtilt which they will want to avoid) you can just jump up and dair them outright as an obnoxious KO combo.

 

[Winston]

I see too many up throws near ledges where a dthrow would ****.

How close to the edge do you mean for this? Do you mean when dthrow would literally send them offstage? Or do you mean normal dthrow techchasing situations, and you just let them slide off the edge if they want to because you're in a good position then

 

[Bob Money]

@Bob$: What is a counterhit pound? I may have gotten hit by one once but I don't think I did. Hbox rarely pounded against my Marth as it was.

@KP: I used to know the CG %s but don't now. I wanna say it's something in the neighborhood of late 30s to mid 40s, and then you can Upthrow Fair out of it(which is amazing and stupid). The Fair tippers if they DI much at all iirc and you can do the combo for quite a while(until Uthrow Fsmash %s anyway which I think is 75%+???).

I do Fthrow or Dthrow below 10%(depends on position relative to the edge and where I think their DI will go and conditioning etc). After 10% until the Upthrow Fair %, I like to Fthrow more because it's less lag for me to chase(unless I'm closer to the edge).

A counter hit pound is when the puff can space a pound to eat through one of your moves, or reads that you will do a move and pounds it to beat it. This can lead to some pretty nasty combos if esp cuz usually you're not ready to DI. This is not completely safe but at low mids percents if the puff misses its not a big deal cuz marth isnt going to kill her. Pound is a very under utilized move in this matchup and only king has used it on me. Even though I played HBOX awhile ago his style is not dynamic enough to consistently beat appropiate puff zoning, although he can make reads(like the end of one of your Zenith matches when he pounds your sh back air startup then rests you) he generally doesnt do it alot. But i encourage you to experiment with Twitch as there are many spots where puff can eat/trade through a move if you space use pound well.

 

[Dr Peepee]

good call, I'll look into that

yeah hbox never did that to me except in like desperation so he didn't really do it right

 

[knightpraetor]

hmm, now that i think about it..how come i don't upthrow falcons on platforms. i think it's cause it's hard to gimp them when they get on a platform..they tend to eat upairs and then have options..while on the ground even if i misread the tech..with them boxed out at the edge I often get nairs/dtilts to poke them offstage. Anyway I will definitely play around with it.

Btw, winston, i don't even know who your avatar is but you automatically sound smarter because your avatar looks smart...i've obviously watched too much anime in my life...or maybe not enough since i can't remember where he's from..probably haven't watched it

 

[Dr Peepee]

I don't like putting Falcons on platforms. I like him on the ground where I can regrab him guaranteed or where upthrow leads to guaranteed followups. Too many SDI/tech/CC/edgecancel shenanigans on platforms for me.

That said, it's not impossible for Marth to own in that scenario. I just feel it adds unnecessary risk and prefer to avoid it. Sometimes it's the better option. Also I may just be bad at capitalizing on the defensive techniques. I'm not totally sure.

 

[Winston]

Yea I'm sure you guys are right, I'm just not good enough at the tech chasing / exploiting cornered falcon game, and I find the "press up + a" technique to be much easier vs people who don't have good platform defense techniques. I'll try to get better with it though.

Btw, winston, i don't even know who your avatar is but you automatically sound smarter because your avatar looks smart...i've obviously watched too much anime in my life...or maybe not enough since i can't remember where he's from..probably haven't watched it

Hahaha... not the intention, the character is actually kind of an idiot. That's funny though. (It's from SZS if you're curious)

 

[knightpraetor]

ah ok..i've watched one episode of that; that's why it looked familiar but i couldn't place it

 

[Bones0]

Yea I'm sure you guys are right, I'm just not good enough at the tech chasing / exploiting cornered falcon game, and I find the "press up + a" technique to be much easier vs people who don't have good platform defense techniques. I'll try to get better with it though.

Shield drops, **** yeah.

 

[knightpraetor]

lol bones. shield drop too good, but only if the marth isn't the style that just spams IASA uptilts on your shield..seems risky to drop against that..but if they are spamming uptilts you should just wait for one shield/CC it and then leave the platform for free

 

[Bones0]

Yeah, I usually wait to see if they'll utilt before trying to shield drop, but if it's a top platform that's a non-issue. Leaving the platform for free is some 2011 ****. Getting my shield utilted is just an invitation to get combo'd, especially since I learned shield dropping almost exclusively by practicing when Marth utilts. lol

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Bthrow is amazing on floaties.

 

[Metal Reeper]

Bthrow is amazing on floaties.

This man is correct

 

[knightpraetor]

why did m2k drop his cg on pp at like 24%? can't you regrab falco till like 26% even without dashdance grabbing him? I thought you could just stnad in place and grab it...but I miss it occasionally and so do others it seems. can they shine out of it or not? against fox I know he can, but i thought i remembered reading that you don't have to worry about shines till later on falco.

 

[Bones0]

I can shine out at like 18% or something. It's only 1 or 2 throws more than Fox.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

no falco can't shine out until ~28%, fox can shine out slightly earlier i believe ~21%

 

[Ripple]

both wrong fox shines out at exactly 28%

 

[Bones0]

lol wut

Guess I'm just that good. I shine out below 20% all the time.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I thought it was falco that shined out later, due to his fall speed. This is all just guessing, tbh, i don't even know where to look it up and im busy enough without having to recreate the tests myself

 

[Bones0]

Yeah, Falco is definitely later. Marth can't regrab Falco if he DIs behind at 0%, but he can grab Fox.

 

[MT_]

I am pretty sure Sveet is correct here. Falco might be able to shine out at 26% (are we talking about percent before or after the grab?) but by that point I would start pivot grabbing anyways. The percent at which pivot grabbing works comes before the percent that you HAVE to pivot grab in order to refrain no-DI. I think so anyways.

 

[ViperGold42]

can you give me a definition of the word useage of "tipping". I don't quite understand it.

 

[Beat!]

Well, when you're satisfied with someone's service, you usually give them a little extra money to show your appreciation.

 

[Strong Badam]

the answer to whoever's question is that M2K messed up

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I thought SB was going to give some sort of lengthy frame data explanation or something. But this is better.

Do you need to pivot grab once or multiple times with falco then?

can you give me a definition of the word useage of "tipping". I don't quite understand it.

Imagine Marth and Luigi meet a cliff and Luigi steals Marth's one coin. Marth proceeds to tip him Luigi for being a stealing wart. Being the gentleman that Marth is he continues to tip Luigi to his doom.

 

[Bones0]

The tip of Marth's sword is stronger than the hilt, so for a lot of things tipping is necessary and/or optimal.

 

[knightpraetor]

so strong bad are you saying it's guaranteed to regrab without pivoting till 26% on neutral DI?