Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Dr Peepee]

wow

.....

I wrote the marth puff post and it was really long, and because I left partway through to hang out with someone, it got deleted by swf basically. that....sucks.

*SIGH*

okay I'll try to write a lot of it again and save it before attempting to post this time.

sorry guys

 

[Bones0]

Get in the habit of just hitting CTRL+A, CTRL+C after every decently long post. It's saved my *** plenty of times.

Dart understands what it means when Sakurai tells us "you must recover."

 

[Tee ay eye]

im taking a break from marth for a bit

never mind, fox is just as boring against noobs

 

[.Chipmunk.]

What's the earliest frame of dolphin slash that Marth can grab the stage?

 

[knightpraetor]

even ctrl+a, ctrl+c won't save you from a system crash though

but yeah that usually works. i just always save stuff in notepad

 

[Dr Peepee]

Marth vs Jigglypuff

okay once again lemme try this post lol.

2 rules to remember in this matchup:


1. Marth always outranges Puff, and he almost always can outmaneuver her.
Disjointed hitboxes>>>limbs. Marth's run/WD speed>>Puff's air speed and ground speed. Only when Marth and Puff are both in the air for an extended period of time is Marth in danger.

2. Puff wants to slow the pace of the match, or bait Marth often(Patience is a virtue, but don't overdo it).
This is because Puff can't directly challenge Marth and instead has to trick him into overextending. Just don't stand around in one place too much or Puff can weave and trick you into being too laggy. M2K stands in one place too much and then moves off of that one space and then attacks so don't do that. Just keep a solid DD/WD game going and change up your space/zoning often so Puff can't just space exactly how she wants to(the only way to counter Marth's spacing is if she gets time to set it up/tricks you).



Okay, so the first thing you wanna do in this matchup, every time, is GET THE MIDDLE OF THE STAGE. Both Marth and Puff heavily focus on zoning, and having more room to zone and bait any attempts to regain stage to zone can only be good for you.

When Marth has the middle of the stage, then he wants to observe which options and mixups the Puff uses and usually Fair(usually) her for them. Puff is most likely going to Bair in this situation to set up a zoning game and try to lull Marth into attacking/staying still so she can control him. If she doesn't Bair, she will most likely wait/shield or dash attack/Fair out desperately.

When Puff Bairs(rising), she is looking to make you frustrated and come in or move backward and give her space. If you hold your ground, Puff has to:

-Fall with another Bair. Resets the state of play and Puff either WDs out of this or Bairs again usually.

-Rise and do more Bairs. Stalls for time and tries to frustrate you while being safe. She has to stay pretty far from Marth though.

-Land and WD back. Usually to set up for a Hungrybox Nair(FH Nair that goes into the opponent after rising for a second) or aerials or a shield.


All of these things are basically baits(and 2 desperate measures) to force Marth to lose his favorable position in the middle of the stage for a rest or gimp. All you have to do is recognize the Puff players' intention and now you can get the upper hand/even hand in damage payout(depending on perspective).


Okay, so what do you do if Puff has you cornered? Well, most of the time Hbox will throw out a Bair so I'm just gonna go with that(even though Nair gets better here for combos offstage). Puff will again usually force Marth to try and freak out and move into him or swing out of fear and be punished but she gets more space to do so and Marth gets no space to retreat to. If it seems like you can't get through what Puff is doing, then let her push you onto the edge and allow your shield to regenerate.

Fair will be a great help in this situation, as will platforms. Look for Puff to go really high(2+ jumps) and get under her or get on a platform if she's staying low. In general, try to avoid shielding unless absolutely necessary here, as you're pretty locked down by Puff then.

Oh yeah, and it's okay to be on the edge, because Marth can either rising Fair onstage(do it late for best results) or DJ onto the very edge of the stage and do nothing(until you land anyway). Puff can't cover both of these options at the same time because she has to drift really far backward to beat Marth's Fair onto the stage or go close to Marth to cover his edge jump.



And now, edgeguarding.

I don't have much to say about when Marth is being edgeguarded because it's mostly Marth dying unless he's close enough to swat at Puff lol. Don't jump near Puff when she's invincible so you can't get drop aerial'd, and try not to land on the stage when Puff is invincible more than is necessary(unless you like being rested).

Edgeguarding Puff is more interesting and fun. She has 5 jumps I wanna say, but only the first 2 maybe 3 are useful. After that, they are bad jumps and most Puffs will panic to get back to the stage(especially since most people let them back for free). Puff usually spends her first jump pushing people away with an aerial and then another one to grab the edge. She can't sweetspot so you can always Dtilt(or Ftilt/Fsmash/jab I guess/Side B/Dsmash?/etc) her. Once you do that, then Puff will mix in pounds and more jumps to grab the edge. So long as you keep moving then multiple jumps won't be a problem(most of the time they are just used as a timing mixup and to keep you still and unable to really react). Pounds can also be reacted to/beaten out if you act quickly enough.

If Puff ever tries to come up from below, just SH Dair her. It hits through the stage and is a spike.


If Puff goes really high you should Bair. Don't worry though, Puffs all get pretty frustrated when this happens so enjoy your free damage and easier character to edgeguard(she lost at least 2 jumps before swatting her don't forget).

A couple more things before I stop writing:


1. Dtilt Puff when she lands/is on the ground.
Puff can't really do anything about Dtilt on the ground, and she's awful in her shield, and Dtilt can't be crouched like grab. IASA on Dtilt leads into pressure or grabs depending on how you do it. It also keeps her from WD'ing away from Marth like she likes to do to reset her spacing as Marth moves in. Fair sometimes misses there because it's not quite fast enough at getting to Puff(or hitting crouching Puff).

2. Rising Fair is amazing. I'm mostly talking SH here.
Puff's Bair, and certainly any of her other moves, lose to Fair straight up because they are her limbs while your sword is, well, a sword. If you think Puff will jump or move close to you, then SH rising Fair. Pretty good for keeping her honest and even punishing her after she does her move.

2.5: Nair is great for beating her Nair and her grounded options and if you're closer than Fair range but don't feel safe grabbing or can't grab it's great. Also beats her aerials sometimes since you're aiming down at her as she's coming up. This is something you have to test to figure out when it works though.

Nair is also an awesome combo move too. Do it a ton below 40% when comboing and in rare situations above 40%(like a tech chase one or something).


2.75: Fsmash is awesome for hitting Puff's limbs too and catching her away DI as she tries to drift backward. Same for Ftilt(walk up Ftilt after she goes into the air is SICK).


If she lands in front of your shield, don't ever do the noob shield grab lol. Try Dair/Fair OOS or WD OOS or roll away lol. You can also Nair if you don't think Puff will Fsmash(beats your aerials when she's close which feels stupid when you get hit by it). Just don't always do the same stuff.

I don't know what everyone knows about Marth throw shenanigans vs Puff so I will leave those alone.



When juggling Puff, if on a platformed stage, USE PLATFORMS. They are amazing for juggling floaties. Floaties often like going for platforms with airdodges anyway so this helps cover that. Delayed aerial to tilt/aerial/WD into tilt or aerial are some great mixups platforms help you achieve. Remember, your sword is big and Puff is slow, so you get a lot of time to set these things up. As you juggle Puff, she has to become increasingly worried as she can't use jumps to trick you. Playing with confidence-

PLAYING WITH CONFIDENCE is really important for Marth to beat Puff. You know you outrange her and you know she can't do much about unless you let her do so. If you approach the matchup with eagerness instead of dread it will go a lot better for you.


Any and all questions are welcome! =)

 

[knightpraetor]

biggest question is when you prefer nair over fair. you didn't really specify whether you even use aerials to approach or just continue your dashdancing. I tend to approach a lot with nair on retreating jiggs because even if the jiggs chose not to retreat the nair is out and prevents you from getting ***** like you would if you were just shin forward planning to fair if she retreats. I just use fair for retreating because it seems to combo better at many percents. not sure whether fair or nair is better for guarding in place. though just dashdancing and using rising fair seems an easier way to dodge.

but yeah, falling fair. is there a place for it when approaching?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yeah sorry the re-write was pretty bad on that(but I didn't even include Nair in the first version LOL).

I hate approaching with Nair now even though it's super fun. I only approach with Nair on Puff if I don't think she'll jump right away or she'll land on the ground. It just doesn't get out fast enough or have the right angle for me.

Also Nair gets ***** by Fsmash, dash attack, and Puff getting out of it's range and then attacking/grabbing. Just too telepgraphed of a move imo.

Falling Fair is pretty bad because that's mad telegraphed too. It probably has a place once in a while but only as a really funny mixup on someone's visual cues(they were waiting for the rising Fair and didn't see it so they stand there and get hit by falling Fair).

 

[ShroudedOne]

Oh yeah, and it's okay to be on the edge, because Marth can either rising Fair onstage(do it late for best results) or DJ onto the very edge of the stage and do nothing(until you land anyway). Puff can't cover both of these options at the same time because she has to drift really far backward to beat Marth's Fair onto the stage or go close to Marth to cover his edge jump.

Can't her shielding at the edge cover both of these? If you rising fair her shield, she could grab/do some janky aerial out of shield/upsmash OoS, right?

I feel like there might be some spacing where she can bair on reaction and cover both, but I don't really know, so I'll leave that alone.

She can't sweetspot

I see people say this all the time, and perhaps I'm wrong, or it's not well known at all, but I'm almost positive Puff can sweetspot the ledge with her sing. She can grab the ledge a bit over her head when she does this (I don't see many Puffs do this).

But if this isn't the case, more power to you.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Can't her shielding at the edge cover both of these? If you rising fair her shield, she could grab/do some janky aerial out of shield/upsmash OoS, right?

I feel like there might be some spacing where she can bair on reaction and cover both, but I don't really know, so I'll leave that alone.



I see people say this all the time, and perhaps I'm wrong, or it's not well known at all, but I'm almost positive Puff can sweetspot the ledge with her sing. She can grab the ledge a bit over her head when she does this (I don't see many Puffs do this).

But if this isn't the case, more power to you.

Well, it just depends on where she shields then. If she shields close to the edge, you Nair to get up(it ends as you land so you get frame advantage and can attack/grab/roll). If she shields far away just DJ on stage normally. If she's on the ground though, honestly, then I'd play around with DJ Fair/shield breaker regrab to keep her honest. Also, she has to be pretty close to the edge to cover everything, and that telegraphs the tactic in itself imo.

Bair'ing from the ground on reaction? Well Marth is invincible for a bit after he DJs so I'd seriously doubt that. Hbox didn't try that though so I couldn't tell you for sure. I'd bet Fair could handle that though. I'd bet quite a few dollars on that.



Oh, well if she goes towards the edge from below, then she'll just get Dair'd anyway. Also, Dtilt probably sticks far enough below the edge to catch Puff as she gets there to sing. I really really don't have much faith in that Sing recovery because of what I've seen it do(or should I say not do) but maybe I've never seen it fully implemented properly.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Yeah, now that I think about it, you'd have enough invincibility to not be in threat of her bair. But you do run some sort of risk, since fair starts from above, and a timed bair can sneak under it, but the ledge invincibility pretty much takes care of that.

Yeah, you can still dair her if she's that low, for sure. I believe it sticks out past the edge, and so even a sweetspot attempt will get stuffed.

 

[Mew2King]

@PP, im not as bad as u think in it. in winterfest dec 09 (which didn't pay out), i beat h-box solidly in crews (2 stock), ive done well vs mango when i play really well w/ confidence (superchampcombo), and ive 8-stocked sliq

Marth can down throw puff really fast or F throw really fast at low %, Short hop Nair, then do Full jump Double Fair

this is my low % combo that brings puff to about 50% damage

Marth has more range yes, but if Marth fairs, and misses, and puff bairs right after, marth gets hit

Reason: marth has his hands out into the air. Due to his HANDS being a hurbox, puff can either trade bairs with his fair or attack right after the sword swing misses

(this will never happen if marth overspaces fair at super big range obviously)

it's not that common, but it is something worth considering because it does happen sometimes.

best strat on a big stage is to double jump zone until you can Fair (I taught you this PP in the long FB messages I sent you recently). I call it "super-zoning", and I made it up in around 06 (no vids though or very few good examples of a vid), where I use marth's double jump to control aerial zoning well. It's similar concept to h-box's bair zoning except I made this up and used it for years before he started playing melee and i think marth does it better. There are many ways to do it. I mix it up so i don't get into an exploitable pattern, but still trying to make sure that if they approach they get hit, while as I am safe.

I also like SH Fair forwards into SH nair back. duno why it just fells good

mostly smart use of Fair is the key imo since u can't really combo her u might as well use mostly that move since damage is everything unless u randomly get a low % grab but idk how ur gonna get that w/out getting lucky randomly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNCPGgZ_3ak

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1pT_56wWyM

also back then I didn't know this but now I know: if you F throw or Down throw and you are not sure their DI, just short hop towards them and react with a Fair, Uair, or Nair. Something like that at least you get the idea (I did not know this back in 2007).

 

[knightpraetor]

yeah, well i only use fair and nair to approach when they are in the air. on the ground you can dtilt them. but now that i think about it rising fair is probably better in most of those cases.

falling fair may combo for one extra hit but it's probably not worth the extra risk i'm taking since jiggs doesn't get comboed very well by tipped fairs.

sing cancelling can definitely grab the ledge outside of dair range. jiggs just don't do it cause they are afraid of suiciding. I've grabbed it way out of range of anything but walk forward dtilt..but I also suicide occasionally trying to get that sing.

this nair from the ledge when jiggs is close...do you mean rising or falling nair? or something in betweeN? i assume landing in front or behind jiggs is less important. honestly i just invuln waveland and take center if they get that close usually.

yeah i like stalling a lot too..thoug if they telegraph pretty obviously, then i find it easier to sh invuln waveland on dash back and grab them. if you're lucky they don't DI^_^

in response to m2k..having watched pp play this matchup a bit. I would have to say he plays like a million times more grounded than m2k does. I honestly play more like m2k than PP, but with a good bit more dashdance like PP so the match goes faster (m2k vs mango on dreamland:\)

also, i really really really like walk in this matchup. Walk is too good. walk forward ftilts. walk back reactive fsmash...walk so broken.

also i don't think pp is really at any huge risk of getting hit after a fair as 70% + of his fairs are rising fairs out of a dashdance..he won't swing unless the jiggs cannot dodge. he's at higher risk of getting tagged/boxed out at the ledge if he runs out of space.


also, i've seen m2k do "super-zoning" vs ganon and other characters. I should probably learn how to do that with DJ and stuff. It's just not something that comes up against spacies and a match would take forever doing that against jiggs

 

[Dr Peepee]

@PP, im not as bad as u think in it. in winterfest dec 09 (which didn't pay out), i beat h-box solidly in crews (2 stock), ive done well vs mango when i play really well w/ confidence (superchampcombo), and ive 8-stocked sliq

Marth can down throw puff really fast or F throw really fast at low %, Short hop Nair, then do Full jump Double Fair

this is my low % combo that brings puff to about 50% damage

Marth has more range yes, but if Marth fairs, and misses, and puff bairs right after, marth gets hit

Reason: marth has his hands out into the air. Due to his HANDS being a hurbox, puff can either trade bairs with his fair or attack right after the sword swing misses

(this will never happen if marth overspaces fair at super big range obviously)

it's not that common, but it is something worth considering because it does happen sometimes.

best strat on a big stage is to double jump zone until you can Fair (I taught you this PP in the long FB messages I sent you recently). I call it "super-zoning", and I made it up in around 06 (no vids though or very few good examples of a vid), where I use marth's double jump to control aerial zoning well. It's similar concept to h-box's bair zoning except I made this up and used it for years before he started playing melee and i think marth does it better. There are many ways to do it. I mix it up so i don't get into an exploitable pattern, but still trying to make sure that if they approach they get hit, while as I am safe.

I also like SH Fair forwards into SH nair back. duno why it just fells good

mostly smart use of Fair is the key imo since u can't really combo her u might as well use mostly that move since damage is everything unless u randomly get a low % grab but idk how ur gonna get that w/out getting lucky randomly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNCPGgZ_3ak

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1pT_56wWyM

also back then I didn't know this but now I know: if you F throw or Down throw and you are not sure their DI, just short hop towards them and react with a Fair, Uair, or Nair. Something like that at least you get the idea (I did not know this back in 2007).

I don't think you're awful at it but you can't get momentum in it which you like.

That "hands hit by Puff Bair" thing should never happen because you should only swing on the outside of Puff's range to be safe or try to challenge her landing if you're closer. Swinging and guessing is dumb and of course gets you *****.

I don't like jumping vs Puff as Marth because that's a good way for her to get under you or for you to lose space in the matchup. Your DJ Fair strategy might be good if you have the vast majority of the stage/are playing on a really big one anyway(DL in particular since you can retreat to a platform and reset everything if needed).

Also it looked like Mango kinda figured you out by the end of game 2 in that set. Maybe you feel differently but that is my observation.

yeah, well i only use fair and nair to approach when they are in the air. on the ground you can dtilt them. but now that i think about it rising fair is probably better in most of those cases.

falling fair may combo for one extra hit but it's probably not worth the extra risk i'm taking since jiggs doesn't get comboed very well by tipped fairs.

sing cancelling can definitely grab the ledge outside of dair range. jiggs just don't do it cause they are afraid of suiciding. I've grabbed it way out of range of anything but walk forward dtilt..but I also suicide occasionally trying to get that sing.

this nair from the ledge when jiggs is close...do you mean rising or falling nair? or something in betweeN? i assume landing in front or behind jiggs is less important. honestly i just invuln waveland and take center if they get that close usually.

yeah i like stalling a lot too..thoug if they telegraph pretty obviously, then i find it easier to sh invuln waveland on dash back and grab them. if you're lucky they don't DI^_^

in response to m2k..having watched pp play this matchup a bit. I would have to say he plays like a million times more grounded than m2k does. I honestly play more like m2k than PP, but with a good bit more dashdance like PP so the match goes faster (m2k vs mango on dreamland:\)

also, i really really really like walk in this matchup. Walk is too good. walk forward ftilts. walk back reactive fsmash...walk so broken.

also i don't think pp is really at any huge risk of getting hit after a fair as 70% + of his fairs are rising fairs out of a dashdance..he won't swing unless the jiggs cannot dodge. he's at higher risk of getting tagged/boxed out at the ledge if he runs out of space.


also, i've seen m2k do "super-zoning" vs ganon and other characters. I should probably learn how to do that with DJ and stuff. It's just not something that comes up against spacies and a match would take forever doing that against jiggs

Do you have a video of Puff Sing recovering well anywhere? If not I'll test it out but I trust your Jiggz experience of course.

I advocate walk up Dtilt to edgeguard Puff too though. As she does that jump to save herself you can walk and attack before she starts to descend/sing.

Not really rising totally but if you hit your FF or do the move late enough you're totally safe. Like I said Nair lasts a while so it's pretty darn safe when the last part connects and you're close to the ground like that. WD onstage and rolling is tight too though. I forgot about that somehow haha. XD


SH WL dash back grab? What have you been able to get with that? I never even thought about that lol I'm curious.


Yo I'm trying to do more standing/walking to dash rising Fairs now. Junk's too good and goes with the flow of the match better sometimes. Also I don't HAVE to DD. Being at the edge as long as I have a platform or a little space I can keep Puff from hitting me(therefore my shield) directly and punish her for doing anything.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

What's the earliest frame of dolphin slash that Marth can grab the stage?

On frame 23 is the earliest he'll grab the ledge.

Now, to read this wall of text.

 

[Bones0]

Yo good ppl. Stop talking about Jiggs, no one cares cause there's ~3 good ones.

Talk about potential for fair wavelands and shield stop fade away fairs. The latter basically seems like it would counter any approach in the game if you can anticipate it properly. The most retardedly safe thing I've ever seen.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I never thought Fair waveland was that useful, and why is shield stop retreating Fair good?

 

[Mew2King]

i think i choked end of the game and messed up and that's why he got in. watch it again and ull see.

wavelanding is good when they totally are expecting to shield grab a fair (since that's what most people do). It's good because it is not what people are used to (although if you have a good controller you can l-cancel on their shield and dash away just before you get shield grabbed anyway).

 

[Construct]

Mango does Fair waveland a TON with Marth in his matches vs Australia (largest and most recent collection of his marth afaik), just sayin. Like M2K said I think he does it to bait shieldgrabs but what the hell do i know lol

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

All I can ever see it being used for is baiting something out of shield. Waveland in place is stupid and FF l-cancel is faster anyway. Waveland towards a shield if you overshot their shield to begin with might get you something baited, but risky.

 

[knightpraetor]

yeah i agree with m2k; you can just l cancel and dash away..no need for the waveland..i like fair waveland vs jiggs and floaties occasionally to waveland to a new spacing and fsmash instantly...but I'm not 100% consistent with the waveland.

mango styles nonstop so i don't think that is a good judge..what was he covering with fair waveland that he couldn't do with a dash back. obviously the ability to fsmash/ftilt/do ground moves if they move towards him. So in that sense I guess it's ok..though with marth's grabgame you don't need it that often. maybe we should try to see if we can bait moves out and reactively fsmash (why i like it vs floaties)..but other than that usually a grab is as good as a ground move from marth in most matchups.

"SH WL dash back grab? What have you been able to get with that? I never even thought about that lol I'm curious."

pp, you need to watch more of m2k's old vids. there is a reason people don't just come up to the ledge point blank against him.

waveland on fox feels dumb and boxed out at the ledge, either fsmash pushing them off onto the ledge or just run up grab...how broken is that.

i should play around with nairing on vs jiggs sometime...i think i rarely do it cause mahone just spaces me out...I try to mix it up with DJ waveland down though..but since jiggs is in the air, maybe just double jump and land near the edge and fair if they come in is better..since unlike fox she can't come in quite as fast

i'm still not sure what the big deal is with shield stopped fair. you shield.. Everyone keeps trying to act as if shield stopped fair is any different than telling someone to just approach with shield. last i checked i've been able to fair out of shield for 2 years, and have been approaching with shield just as long. Not sure what all the hype is about to be honest. I do think I need to play around with it vs sheik as her dash attack is pretty scary on the ground.

also i don't have a sing videoa nd haven't tested it, so feel free to test it. I have played around with seeing max distance sing grab while trying out jiggs..and i am pretty sure it's out of dair range..however, that max distance one is dangerous as hell..i don't think jiggs will start doing that..the people i see try for sing cancel ledgegrab do it very close to the ledge where they could be spiked.

 

[MT_]

I like the Jiggs talk. I have been seriously struggling with the matchup lately and would love to entertain any and all ideas haha.

PP what is your ideal spacing against Puff in the neutral game? I know it's always changing because of how Marth has to be DD/WDing to adjust spacing and Puff is going to be floating around, but I was wondering what you thought the ideal spacing is. I have some of my own thoughts but I want to know what you think first lol.

 

[knightpraetor]

i want to talk about this one. ZOMG Puff's fair out of shield reaches tooo far. Just saying, i only want to comment on the spacing to give puff on the ground. my favorite spacing is like 1.5 X how much i would give a fox to be out of range of bair out of shield. puff has really good mobility. obviously moving inside this range to bait the puff is fine, but just don't try to dashdance too close. Most people who aren't familiar with the matchup underrate her aerial mobility.

also, i'm not really whining about puff's spacing...once she lands in this matchup she's at a disadvantage unless you are very close to the edge and can't get enough space to get out of range.

on a side note: M2k likes fair into retreating nair..and i love it too..but isn't it just strictly speaking slower at coming out than fair? despite that everyone i've met seems to like it more than retreating fair. I think it's cause CC is less of an issue, but also it's cause nair is easy to AC. WHy can't people just rising retreating fair AC run away...but they miss the fastfall timing and stuff like that..

I guess another possible reason is nair has more stuff right? so since retreating moves can't combo properly.. you want to have as much stun as possible so you get frame advantage and pressure afterwards


also this line by PP keeps confusing me:
That "hands hit by Puff Bair" thing should never happen because you should only swing on the outside of Puff's range to be safe or try to challenge her landing if you're closer. Swinging and guessing is dumb and of course gets you *****.

When i swing I'm either in range in which case it is impossible to miss, or the jiggs hit me by approaching with an aerial before i swung. I'm wondering if maybe you are talking about rising fair just out of range so the jiggs runs into it. I haven't tried that, it seems easier to just dodge if you think they are coming in...throwing out a move in their path sounds like a peach strat

 

[Bones0]

I asked about fair-waveland just to see what other people did with it. I've been wanting to experiment with it. Specifically I want to get a grab by the ledge and do uthrow -> reverse SH fair -> waveland off dair. :D

I asked about shieldstop fadeaway fair cause it just goes soooooooo far back. It just blows my mind every time I do it. OMG now I just thought about trying dash back shield stop bair (drifting towards them).


I think I focus way too much on tricks instead of getting good first.

 

[knightpraetor]

i think it's just that people who claw don't even know what you guys are talking about because it's so easy to retreating fair full distance. Tricks are fun....if you just focus on getting good without learning tricks you can't style. Also..if you find out what % that works on i will definitely insert it into my game as a lost stock suicide finish. wavelands after fairs aren't that hard to do..they just aren't exceptionally useful. I just have a feeling that upthrow sh reverse fair waveland off works at the same percent as walk forward tip fsmash..which makes it of questionable usefulness usually..but mad style points if you hit it.

mahone teases me every final stock if i drop an edgeguard at any point because i could have suicide daired..even if i kill him he still reminds me that that could have been a suicide dair..and that if he had smash DIed up he might have gotten an extra recovery attempt

mahone always compliments you because you actually use the tech skills that you rave about on the board, as opposed to every other fox falco who talk about all this theorycraft and then use none of it in matches and usually get ***** anyway:\

but still, in my opinion, good spacing comes first in this game in most matchups (spacie dittos excluded), then knowing your opponent/reading them, then edgeguarding, then technical consistency.

Comboing is the hardest to fit in there, it matters the least most of the time, but matters quite a bit in falco dittos. fox dittos i would say comboing is less important than proper application of pressure after they get "out" of the combo.

obviously pressure application is good with falco too..but when you watch pp they often just don't get a chance to move

speaking of knowing your opponent I still sucked against ICs the last time I played against one..but I hope secondarying ICs for a while has helped my marth game. I really do feel what other ICs said, which is that ICs cannot get in on marth without making him swing first. So I will definitely feel less rushed next time I play.

 

[MT_]

I'm just gonna say it.

I don't think the whole retreating raising fair thing isn't that useful (shield stop or not). It's an incredibly defensive move that will only ever hit if you call them out on an approach. And it has a number of issues IMO. If you do hit with the fair, you're not going to be able to follow up on it because you retreated it so far (especially if you shield stopped to do it). And if you were able to call their approach correctly, there's so many other things that you could do that are simply better. Like a stationary fair (or maybe SLIGHTLY retreating fair depending on spacing) which you can follow up on into grab or something. Furthermore, it's terrible as a zoning tool because you give up so much space whenever you use it or just simply call their approach incorrectly, and that's pretty bad for Marth who's game really relies on controlling space and having stage control.

IDK. I tried using it many times and have practiced it but it never did me any good. Can't follow up on it very well and it simply gives up way too much space for no reason. If you're scared of getting punished for not retreating the fair then you shouldn't be fairing there in the first place. Even dash forward to retreating fair doesn't feel useful really lol. Meh.

 

[Bones0]

mahone always compliments you because you actually use the tech skills that you rave about on the board, as opposed to every other fox falco who talk about all this theorycraft and then use none of it in matches and usually get ***** anyway:\

but still, in my opinion, good spacing comes first in this game in most matchups (spacie dittos excluded), then knowing your opponent/reading them, then edgeguarding, then technical consistency.

Comboing is the hardest to fit in there, it matters the least most of the time, but matters quite a bit in falco dittos. fox dittos i would say comboing is less important than proper application of pressure after they get "out" of the combo.

obviously pressure application is good with falco too..but when you watch pp they often just don't get a chance to move

speaking of knowing your opponent I still sucked against ICs the last time I played against one..but I hope secondarying ICs for a while has helped my marth game. I really do feel what other ICs said, which is that ICs cannot get in on marth without making him swing first. So I will definitely feel less rushed next time I play.

LOL That's funny, I never actually thought about it. I've sort of always thought it was weird how most people don't try tech **** in tourney, or even when they're actually playing somewhat serious friendlies. I guess I just assumed they weren't comfortable in the execution, but some stuff like double shines aren't even that difficult. I see some people double shine consistently between stocks and stuff, and then they literally don't use it at all during the actual fight. I think I have this weird belief that if I don't learn to play this game with all of the tricks, that they are just going to feel unnatural when I do get better. Like someone who learns to shield drop before learning to play will probably incorporate it more naturally/effectively down the road than a player who is already good and just learns to shield drop. I guess I really just can't tell if tricksies are slowing down my actual progress because I am in a sense learning more about the game at each skill level, or if they are slowing down my progress because I'm too focused on when to use tricks instead of using the simple options. Especially after doing so poor at Zenith, I kind of want to just hardcore focus on basics for a while, like you said. Just work on spacing, reading movements, edgeguarding, using stage positioning, maintaining simplicity/efficiency, etc.


@MT
Yeah, I guess I just love tricks so much that I want it to be good. Deep down I kind of know that it's just a weird little situational thing that has little to no impact. LOL

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I've sort of always thought it was weird how most people don't try tech **** in tourney. I guess I just assumed they weren't comfortable in the execution, but some stuff like double shines aren't even that difficult. I see some people double shine consistently between stocks and stuff, and then they literally don't use it at all during the actual fight. I think I have this weird belief that if I don't learn to play this game with all of the tricks, that they are just going to feel unnatural when I do get better. Like someone who learns to double shine before learning to play will probably incorporate it more naturally/effectively down the road than a player who is already good and just learns to multishine. I guess I really just can't tell if tricksies are slowing down my actual progress because I am in a sense learning more about the game at each skill level, or if they are slowing down my progress because I'm too focused on when to use tricks instead of using the simple options. Especially after doing so poor at Zenith, I kind of want to just hardcore focus on basics for a while, like you said. Just work on spacing, reading movements, edgeguarding, using stage positioning, maintaining simplicity/efficiency, etc.

I've always felt that spamming shine junk during the middle of a stock would screw you up if you don't actually use it. The timing for hitting multishine on a shield/opponent is different than hitting nothing.

Having your little tricks I've felt is pretty important for tournament. Your going to run into people who are either better, at same level, or much worse than you. No need to get burnt out doing rather technical and on the spot movements when a few basic tricks can grant you easier rewards than doing it the more basic way. I could CG fox, Utilt/Uair him across the stage, then finish with edgeguarding, or I could go for a missed tech on a throw and get an easy fsmash into an immediate edgeguard.

 

[Bones0]

I guess I've just done it enough, but shining in between stocks doesn't mess me up at all really. I could see how it would mess up some people though.

As for your second point, that's the kind of stuff that makes me worried about using. I mean obviously it's a good trick if your opponent isn't ready for it, but when you get to the level where they won't miss that throw tech, then you basically have to backtrack and learn what you actually have to do. A LOT of less skilled Marth players I have played rely WAY to much on gimmicky throw stuff, and I have enough Marth experience that I just don't get hit by any of it, and they just seem confused how I'm beating them. Every other Falco their level gets hit by all the bthrow fsmash stuff, but just because I know to expect it, suddenly they're hopeless because they've built that matchup around stuff that doesn't truly work. I feel like if they would just practice the difficult but optimal option of chain grabbing, I feel like they'd struggle in the short run, but in the long run it'd pay off. Obviously there's varying level of consistency with certain mixups. Maybe top players will never fall for dthrow, missed tech, fsmash, but maybe Fox is light enough to make bthrow fast enough that it can sometimes be used. It's definitely iffy, so I'm not trying to tell others how to play. Just explaining my reasoning.

 

[.Ðempt]

Hmm, interesting. I've always thought "What's the point in learning the stuff if I'm never going to use it in tourney play?" lol

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I guess there might be the issue of once you start using the gimmicks, how easily can you revert back to playing more with the guaranteed things. I'm just thinking that having these gimmicks in your arsenal can help going through a tournament easier when you can get away with it. Or simply gauge your opponent and know gimmicks won't get you through the match.

Going for some gimmicky strategies is a decent way to open a set to get a feel for someone I never played before or simply seeing how well they are playing for the day. When I have played the same people over and over again, they have their good and bad days and some gimmicks can suddently start working. Also, its gets you some good information on how they will react and you get an idea for things to try out. After the first few attempts, you can gauge how successful things are going and change up how you play as the match goes on.

Maybe people take a more improvised way of handling matches, but this is sort of what I've been trying to achieve in sets. Go through a bit of a check list of gimmicky stuff to get an idea of how well they react to stuff and alter how you play depending upon how they respond.

 

[.Ðempt]

Stuff like that can get help you mess with someone's head too. I know if I got Double-Shined or some kind of Jesus combo my first stock, I'd be a little worried about the other three. >_>

 

[knightpraetor]

glad I'm not the only one MT. running around retreating aerialing with fair seems pretty horrendous..if you're going to do it just ac retreating nair you can just do it in place if you really call the approach..the only time it's really necessary is against fast characters that are overshooting aerials on you (read: fox) because a rising aerial might not get out in time. or trade or something stupid like that.

gimmicky stuff is not always bad. going for it when they are trying to DI upthrow to a platform or after repeatedly chaingrabbing them with upthrow really fast can screw with anyone's reactions (depending on whether they were actually trying for some special DI and had to react suddenly..if they are the player that just sits there and neutral DI's throws until you hit them with a move out of your chaingrab then it's less likely to work [except at 30-40% when they are trying to shine as you do it])

 

[Mew2King]

I'm just gonna say it.

I don't think the whole retreating raising fair thing isn't that useful (shield stop or not). It's an incredibly defensive move that will only ever hit if you call them out on an approach. And it has a number of issues IMO. If you do hit with the fair, you're not going to be able to follow up on it because you retreated it so far (especially if you shield stopped to do it). And if you were able to call their approach correctly, there's so many other things that you could do that are simply better. Like a stationary fair (or maybe SLIGHTLY retreating fair depending on spacing) which you can follow up on into grab or something. Furthermore, it's terrible as a zoning tool because you give up so much space whenever you use it or just simply call their approach incorrectly, and that's pretty bad for Marth who's game really relies on controlling space and having stage control.

IDK. I tried using it many times and have practiced it but it never did me any good. Can't follow up on it very well and it simply gives up way too much space for no reason. If you're scared of getting punished for not retreating the fair then you shouldn't be fairing there in the first place. Even dash forward to retreating fair doesn't feel useful really lol. Meh.

see orange: at mid and high %s, you won't combo puff anyway, so who cares?

this is good vs puff, since you only want to maximize chances of hitting her and getting her damage up, without getting hit yourself.

make sense?

 

[Tee ay eye]

Yo good ppl. Stop talking about Jiggs, no one cares cause there's ~3 good ones.

nobody wants to lose to the bad ones

 

[.Ðempt]

see orange: at mid and high %s, you won't combo puff anyway, so who cares?

this is good vs puff, since you only want to maximize chances of hitting her and getting her damage up, without getting hit yourself.

make sense?

If only. *Le sigh*

It goes two ways: 1) The Puff is stupid early %'s and let's you rack up easy damage/grabs then stays defensive the rest of the time, or 2) The Puff is smart and is always defensive.

Overall: **** Puff.

 

[knightpraetor]

puff can't camp marth. ftilt out ranges camping, just get close enough to make him swing..or overshoot aerials...

you have like twenty billion options to hit a camping puff with...

bait out her moves.

they may fear the ftilt and try to stay grounded when you get near in which case you have dtilt and grab..

it's funny..i shake my head when someone suggests jiggs can outcamp marth but back when my whole marth - jiggs strategy revolved around camping a la m2k, i really hated campy jiggs

 

[.Ðempt]

You have a point regarding FTilt, but even with it, I really disagree.....

 

[knightpraetor]

see orange: at mid and high %s, you won't combo puff anyway, so who cares?

this is good vs puff, since you only want to maximize chances of hitting her and getting her damage up, without getting hit yourself.

make sense?

you yourself just said that you really like fair to retreating nair. why is that? because nair may knock them offstage..even puff has a harder time coming back down if she's offstage..a retreating fair does nothing. You gain one frame for an inferior move to retreating nair. I still say it's only worth it when you really need that one frame. extra stun and knockback on nair is worth one frame in so many situations. even if you're at the center of the stage..that 1 frame of time you lost becomes an extra half wavedash length of space you took from jiggs..so you have more stage to work with.

that said, when i watch your marth you randomly use retreating fair sometimes, but still favor retreating nair. i think pp uses retreating fair more so maybe he has reasons he prefers it in places. though when i watch pp he prefers dash motions to retreating aerials almost all of the time. if his opponents don't run into his aerials he just runs in and grabs them and ***** them cause his dashdance is like 10x better than the average marth player

oh, i guess i do like retreating fair in one spot, if you only retreat a little bit with it you can actually follow up if they approached grounded (works better if they are above CC percent or have bad options out of CC)

SCREW THIS!! AM I THE ONLY MARTH WHO HAS SPENT OVER 20HRS THINKING ABOUT FAIR VS NAIR IN VARIOUS MATCHUPS AND DEBATING THEIR USEFULNESS...yeah just thought of more places i like rising fair. it's not that bad vs jiggs at all, as jiggs can come in after the fair if you whiff and then nair will be in landing lag while the fair allows for a second fair. meanwhile if you whiff nair you still have uptilt..but they could bait that out after coming in range.

@ Dempt "You have a point regarding FTilt, but even with it, I really disagree....."

i don't understand how you expect jiggs to camp..so when you walk forward and stand outside of range of jiggs and she's at the ledge, is she just sitting there camping you? i would bet if you walk forward just a millimeter she either jumps, swings, or something once you get in range..if not..crouch and dtilt... honestly jiggs jump is not some 2 frame nonsense..you can react to her moving and dodge. if she refuses to dodge, a grounded jiggs cannot escaps a nair from point blank range because she can't get off the ground in time once you're close enough....if you have a slightly wider spacing you can do the same thing with fair...but i seriously seriously doubt any jiggs is really "camping" the ledge against you..most likely they are just camping till you get close enough and then swatting you in the face. But that's not them camping you...that's you failing to bait out approaches properly.

and if they are retreating aerialing across the stage i don't see why you can't just walk along after them and take all of the stage. if you space safe fairs/dashdances and they are just retreating the whole time..even if you miss you won't lose much..retreating bair is a problem if marth doesn't overshoot a rising fair,has bad dashdance control, falsely predicted the jiggs would land and went for a grab, well there are several other things it beats..but when you complain about something so generic as "camping", it doesn't really tell anyone what your real problem is.

but yeah, if you're getting camped by a char with less range than you, it's your fault. That said, pound camping near the ledge is pretty gay so don't get too aggressive...i tend to do that in friendlies a lot...but in tourney at least you should play patient, respecting jiggs ability to turn things around with a well read pound/ nair rest if you get predictable.

 

[.Ðempt]

Idk, usually most of the Puffs out here know the Marth matchup. If you know how to analyze your opponent correctly, matchups don't matter, so that may have a majority of how I feel about the matchup because the Puffs I play read a little harder. Most of the time, I'll try approaching them and they're in the air ready to BAir me. I usually get hit by it then combo'd continuously. If I do manage to get close, they CC, so if I DTilt, they can pop up and punish me. Same goes for grabbing, which I rarely do against Puff anymore because of her Rest.

I'd just like to see someone who really knows the matchup play it.