Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[OverLord]

Actually you can do whatever you want.

Stay always ready for a D-Tilt/Jab/F-Tilt if he recovers towards you, if he goes up for the platform, then U-tilt/U-Air/Jump-Fair/whateva

The point is that you have to guess/predict if he's going always that way. If he's gonna change angle you should always be ready, so I suggest just covering the ledge and stay ready for punishing the other angles.

You can also jump towards him with a Fair and go for a Ken-Combo, it works, or sometimes you can B-Air>D-air as M2K does.


Sometimes I just wavedash>fastfall to not grab the ledge>jump>Bair, it covers like every option, but you have to be quick and to expect he's going to Up-B and not side-B.

 

[stopNstart]

if they're starting high (above stage level), go out there and hit em

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Starting the firefox above the stage usually grants fox the most options for his recovery. The best way to solve this problem is to attack him before he starts moving. If he is too far for you to hit him before he starts moving, try experimenting with dtilt/ftilt (edge cover) into nair/uair/utilt (high cover).

edit- woah didnt see extra page. 2 day ninja lol

 

[Hellsinglover999]

lets talk about marth vs falcon now

 

[mers]

Marth vs. Falcon is hard...

Against high Firefox, jumping out, using a bair to turn around, then hitting with a bair or dair is super good. You can get incredibly far out there and still recover easily.

 

[Dart!]

lets talk about marth vs falcon now

Don't get grabbed, that's all you have to worry about.

 

[ChivalRuse]

What about nair? It leads into grab so ...

 

[Niko45]

I try to use shield pretty liberally against CF because yea it's mostly nair to grab that sucks and they're unlikely to just run up and try to grab you outright. Most of CFs attacks on your shield are punishable. Or at the very least you can WD out and maybe take some stage control.

Low % fthrow dthrow tech chase him around, try to force him off stage asap.

Mid % Up throw to fair/uair is good damage building.

Edgeguard aggressively. If he goes low don't just sit there and dtilt/fsmash. Take the ledge and drop down bair him to put him away. If he goes high try to get to him high before he has time to fully land and possibly edge cancel. Try to fair him out of high up B and potentially ken combo or fair again to send him back off further.

Stay on the ground. Don't get scooped by random up airs ever. That's giving it to him for free.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Or get him on a platform. The biggest problems always seem to be at low percents where you cannot really combo him very well and he has a lot of chances to get away, but the platforms can get him out of that low percent range fairly quickly without the chance to really get away.

 

[Dart!]

honestly, if he goes low drop down and force him to grab you with his up b aiming at the wall. Tech > punish the **** out of him.

 

[Bob Money]

Nair is amazing and horrible vs falcon at the same time. Good falcons will punish it from half screen if you "throw" it out. with a knee or something to make you block/stuff you etc. but at he same time he cant beat it with anything he has reliably with the exception of very well timed raptor boosts, but dont use nair as a primary spacing tool(it works on lower end falcons hella well. like way too well) but not against pretty good ones. its a decentish mixup but like niko said stay on the ground dont give him even the small chance of getting in. of course with marth anything spaced is good but anything is also bad if they know its coming.

oops misread chivs post, but yeah cfs nair is mad good but better falcons with soft knee/knee a little more in this match up IMO.as an approach.

 

[Niko45]

I find myself falling in and out of love with nair constantly cause when it's hitting CF it's stupidly lucrative but when it's not working Falcon will make you pay so fast.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Against Falcons who aren't heavily patient, I prefer wd -> u-tilt to counteract their shffls.

 

[Dart!]

jab is really useful in this matchup. also hitting the back of his shield > uptilt will stop all of his OoS garbage

 

[ChivalRuse]

Well, he can always just stay in shield and WD out of shield to punish the u-tilt. Actually, he might even have time to drop his shield and just turn around and grab you.

 

[Niko45]

jab is really useful in this matchup. also hitting the back of his shield > uptilt will stop all of his OoS garbage

Jab is definitely great here. One thing about CF players is they aren't naturally great CCers and you can really take advantage of this with moves like jab.

 

[makoforce]

IDK but i feel like im the only that feels marth ftilt vs CF is godsend it covers his whole SH height and has more range than every single one of his moves in general.
#inb4WDbackftilt

 

[Jun.]

camp fairs until falcon throws out a useless nair then grab him.

that's my *gay* way of playing against falcon.

 

[Cactuar]

Lol. Marth vs Falcon is all about that upsmash.

 

[Niko45]

Nah ftilt blows. Falcon will punish that hard OOS and it's not much of a combo starter even when it hits. If Falcon is just going to fly at me predictably with aerials I'll just up tilt.

Camp fair also blows as you're just throwing out predictable non threatening hitboxes with lag for him to time approaches around

Stay on the ground. DD camp hard. Shield a lot. Occasionally approach with dtilt/fsmash/nair.

A basic rule for this matchup (and Marth in general) is to always stay level or below your opponent. If he's on the ground, you're on the ground. If he goes in the air you can follow him carefully but you're still staying below/not risking suddenly having him below you. It's more emphasized against Falcon cause he will pick you apart quickly if you aren't disciplined with this.

 

[mers]

Stay on the ground. DD camp hard. Shield a lot. Occasionally approach with dtilt/fsmash/nair.

I was with you on everything except fsmash approaching. That seems dumb as hell. Not the fastest move, doesn't lead to much except at high percentages, and has ridiculous lag. If he shields it he gets a free knee, if he avoids it he gets a free anything. Approaching with dtilt, nair, and even grab all seem more useful.

 

[Niko45]

No fsmash *****. It covers the Falcon trying to jump over your dtilt. Fsmash is a pretty advanced approach, honestly, but it's really viable. It basically takes really good timing and spacing along with good masking of the fact that you're approaching.

If you tipper a shield it's unpunishable. If you catch them shielding while dashing away it's going to be harder to punish. If they DJ over it you're going to get hurt tho. Like I said, you have to kinda have a feel for it and know if it's there or not. Works great against Fox too. Watch M2K vs Jman vids you'll see him fsmash approach occasionally because he knows Jman is too passive.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

^I approve. You have to pick your spots with fsmash but its a good approach. See: Azen.

If you predict a dash away, you can get a tipper. You have to be precise, but with practice, its very viable.

 

[Jun.]

or if they suspect a fsmash and they shield

you're gonna git knee'd

 

[Niko45]

But that just means you fsmashed too much and should have approached with shield and reacted with grab.

The point of approaching isnt to be safe. Shield and dtilt and nair are all punishable by proper responses from CF too. You approach to establish momentum or catch them napping while camping or simply for the sake of keeping them guessing so that your passive aggressive baits still work.

Sometimes you gotta just go for the ****. i think Marths too often try to "out-safe" people and they end up fighting losing battles to characters that are just inherently safer or are better equipped to win attrition battles.

 

[Jun.]

IMO the point of approaching isn't even to get a hit in. Its to force them in a corner where it is easier to get them off stage.

So in many cases I don't even think Marth needs ANY moves to approach.

 

[Cactuar]

Marth has moves?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Sometimes you gotta just go for the ****. i think Marths too often try to "out-safe" people and they end up fighting losing battles to characters that are just inherently safer or are better equipped to win attrition battles.

Plus it is less fun to keep dash dancing all the time if no one is going to be getting close to you. Keeping it aggro keeps it enjoyable.

So in many cases I don't even think Marth needs ANY moves to approach.

Space camping! Success!

Marth has moves?

Did the PP for the moves run out or something? Someone! Get a Max Elixer.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Did the PP for the moves run out or something? Someone! Get a Max Elixer.

No. We require more vespine gas.

 

[Juno McGrath]

No. We require more vespine gas.

in the rear, with the gear.

 

[Divinokage]

Marth has moves?

Aren't you supposed to help people here? lol.

 

[Tee ay eye]

no that's niko's job

 

[Sage Osaka]

Sometimes you gotta just go for the ****. i think Marths too often try to "out-safe" people and they end up fighting losing battles to characters that are just inherently safer or are better equipped to win attrition battles.

yeah i think thats one reason ken was so successful, because he was so aggressive (precise aggression)

 

[Tee ay eye]

yeah, i think a lot of marth players are too committed to the idea of not approaching

i mean, yeah, if your opponent is gonna throw their lives away at you, go ahead and do your thing like mew2king, but sometimes, you gotta just go in with the pressure. keep going in with good spacing/pressure until you get a response, until you find out what makes them tick... and at a certain point, if they don't respond, that means that you're safe to attack them.

 

[linkoninja]

What do you guys think about Marth vs Pikachu matchup? I was playing a friend who uses Pikachu the other day and I felt in this matchup that I could combo decently, but setting up combos was hard.
What can I do from grabs and how do you guys feel about Up-Tilt in this matchup?

 

[Tee ay eye]

What do you guys think about Marth vs Pikachu matchup? I was playing a friend who uses Pikachu the other day and I felt in this matchup that I could combo decently, but setting up combos was hard.
What can I do from grabs and how do you guys feel about Up-Tilt in this matchup?

OMG FINALLY

It's my time to SHINE!!!!!

 

[Tee ay eye]

Marth vs Pikachu is roughly even, imo. TAJ thinks so too, and Axe at least agrees that it's one of Pikachu's better matchups among the top/high tiers.

-When Pikachu u-throws you, DON'T DI ALL THE WAY. Either don't DI, or just partial DI. If you DI all the way either way, he has a semi-guaranteed tail-spike to regrab/u-smash. DON'T LET HIM DO THIS TO YOU.
-If he crosses up your shield with a nair, you can either try to dair OOS immediately, or you can wait for the u-air and then punish him after that.
-I don't really use u-tilt very much as a spacing tool against Pikachu. Pikachu is small and fast, and he can punish your lag VERY VERY well. Also, u-tilt doesn't have as much of a reward since Pikachu can't be comboed off u-tilt like fastfallers can. I prefer jabs and d-tilts. Mix jabs and d-tilts to poke and prod at him and to stuff his approaches. I like to move around a lot right in and out of Pikachu's shffl n-air range, and if I see him try to approach, I usually shield or WD back and jab. If he's not doing anything, I just encroach a little bit further and start trying to harass him with jabs and d-tilts. ALSO, something to keep in mind is that you can crouch cancel his approaches pretty well if he gets around your ground moves. Sometimes when he doesn't approach, and he's not gonna do much to you, you can just run in for the grab.
-Your f-air and n-air are good, but I think they should be used sorta secondarily to your ground moves. I think this is true vs Pikachu and a lot of characters. They just change your rhythm and sorta just have a different effect on your opponent. I guess being at the air sorta just baits them into coming at you. The main problem with his aerials is that when Marth gets hit in the air, he is going to experience a LOT OF PAIN. But yeah, Marth's ground moves are amazing.
-Marth can't combo Pikachu especially well, but he's not helpless. Just u-throw and try to trap him in the air. Sometimes, you can get good tippers on him if he loses his jump.
-When edgeguarding Pikachu, with f-smash/d-tilt, go ALL THE WAY UP TO THE EDGE. If you space yourself so you're just hitting the edge with the tip of your sword, YOU WILL NOT HIT PIKACHU IF HE SWEETSPOTS. If you go all the way out, you'll hit Pikachu before he sweetspots. Something that was working really really well last night (I have to test it more, though) was walking all the way to the edge, turning around, and hitting him with the back of my SHFFL dair. It was working really well, but I only played 2 games against his Pika last night.

 

[linkoninja]

Marth vs Pikachu is roughly even, imo. TAJ thinks so too, and Axe at least agrees that it's one of Pikachu's better matchups among the top/high tiers.

-When Pikachu u-throws you, DON'T DI ALL THE WAY. Either don't DI, or just partial DI. If you DI all the way either way, he has a semi-guaranteed tail-spike to regrab/u-smash. DON'T LET HIM DO THIS TO YOU.
-If he crosses up your shield with a nair, you can either try to dair OOS immediately, or you can wait for the u-air and then punish him after that.
-I don't really use u-tilt very much as a spacing tool against Pikachu. Pikachu is small and fast, and he can punish your lag VERY VERY well. Also, u-tilt doesn't have as much of a reward since Pikachu can't be comboed off u-tilt like fastfallers can. I prefer jabs and d-tilts. Mix jabs and d-tilts to poke and prod at him and to stuff his approaches. I like to move around a lot right in and out of Pikachu's shffl n-air range, and if I see him try to approach, I usually shield or WD back and jab. If he's not doing anything, I just encroach a little bit further and start trying to harass him with jabs and d-tilts. ALSO, something to keep in mind is that you can crouch cancel his approaches pretty well if he gets around your ground moves. Sometimes when he doesn't approach, and he's not gonna do much to you, you can just run in for the grab.
-Your f-air and n-air are good, but I think they should be used sorta secondarily to your ground moves. I think this is true vs Pikachu and a lot of characters. They just change your rhythm and sorta just have a different effect on your opponent. I guess being at the air sorta just baits them into coming at you. The main problem with his aerials is that when Marth gets hit in the air, he is going to experience a LOT OF PAIN. But yeah, Marth's ground moves are amazing.
-Marth can't combo Pikachu especially well, but he's not helpless. Just u-throw and try to trap him in the air. Sometimes, you can get good tippers on him if he loses his jump.
-When edgeguarding Pikachu, with f-smash/d-tilt, go ALL THE WAY UP TO THE EDGE. If you space yourself so you're just hitting the edge with the tip of your sword, YOU WILL NOT HIT PIKACHU IF HE SWEETSPOTS. If you go all the way out, you'll hit Pikachu before he sweetspots. Something that was working really really well last night (I have to test it more, though) was walking all the way to the edge, turning around, and hitting him with the back of my SHFFL dair. It was working really well, but I only played 2 games against his Pika last night.

Haha it really is your time to shine >:D
thanks for the input! I always had trouble with edgeguarding him so now I got some new tricks to try out >:D

 

[Tee ay eye]

i've been waiting my entire marth career for someone to ask me about pikachu

 

[linkoninja]

i've been waiting my entire marth career for someone to ask me about pikachu

Well I'm glad I can help so when you get a grab you normally just throw upwards?