Captain Falcon's MANLY Matchup Guide/Discussion Thread Week 16: Yoshi/Sonic

[Matt07]

Problem is, fsmash is one of our best K.O moves, and most of us will want to keep that move fresh, so we can K.O you earlier.

 

[sMexy-Blu]

Mario's Fsmash is more stronger than I though it was... Ban it.

 

[Player-3]

Not really....

okay exaggeration.

but still, mario wins on the ground =\

i wouldnt be surprised if his utilt clanged with all of our ground moves

 

[mario brawler]

I'd go along with 65-45 mario adv maybe 7-3
I've played alot of Falcons and unfortunatly his recovery can't do much against the cape ( and fludd of course)
mario can control the ground with fireballs, his D-smash is also lightning fast, plus u-tilt chains and some more o.O
off-stage, the cape is the winner there
and in the air, Im not sure mario can combo Falcon relativlyey easily, but Falcon has better range and what not
you do have a decent chance at gimping us I'll give you that, the cape can save us sometimes ( both in flipping your attack around, and stalling to mess up your timing ), but your U-air is really good

btw, I respect all you determined C. Falcon mains, that takes real skill, go you! :D

 

[Darxmarth23]

AUGH!

Mario's fireballs are gonna make you jump places you don't want to be in. And he has decent combo ability.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Vs Mario:

The main thing Falcon has that is better than Mario's is probably his Jab, which has decent enough range to be annoying. Some of his other attacks also have better range, although they are usually slower and laggier.

Mario has projectile camping that Falcon has trouble stopping due to his limited approach and poor priority.

Mario has a number of good out of shield options like Up-smash, D-smash, and Up-B, which are all good at punishing Falcon for attacking Mario's shield.

Mario has better "combos". Up-tilt juggles on fastfallers, double U-air hits at low percents, D-throw puts you in a disadvantaged position that is good for regrabs or U-air juggles.

Falcon occasionally KOs at lower percents when he lands a Smash or a F-air, but all of Mario's KO moves like Up-smash, F-smash, etc are faster and usually less laggy.

Mario can edgeguard Falcon very effectively with FLUDD, Cape, and N-air, all of which set up for easy edgehogs. Falcon can try to gimp Mario with F-air if Mario has already used his midair jump, but that's pretty much it.

So yeah, at least 6/4 Mario. I personally think it's about 65/35.

 

[F5Hazardousdoc]

If neither character has anything game breaking on the other, then I usually just pin matches 60:40

But mario's got the cape, so I'd go 65:35, its quite effective on falcon.

 

[Player-3]

63:35 mario it is, if you wish to dispute, comment here quick.

fox is 6:4 i think we already decided, right?

 

[Darxmarth23]

63:35 mario it is, if you wish to dispute, comment here quick.

fox is 6:4 i think we already decided, right?

I'm good with both of those.

Anyone wants to beef with us?

 

[Matt07]

I honestly didn't know the match-up was that bad, poor Falcon .

 

[Player-3]

I honestly didn't know the match-up was that bad, poor Falcon .

im convinced you can beat a falcon doing nothing but cape a fludd.
soon as he FKs you cape him offstage... then hes ****ed

 

[Roager]

63:35 mario it is, if you wish to dispute, comment here quick.

fox is 6:4 i think we already decided, right?

I'm okay with that. But Fox wasn't very well discussed, so if anyone has anything to add, do so.

 

[Player-3]

I'm okay with that. But Fox wasn't very well discussed, so if anyone has anything to add, do so.

Hazard discussed with some fox mains and i trust his judgement

 

[Roager]

Hazard discussed with some fox mains and i trust his judgement

I mean it wasn't very well discussed here. If we wanna trust the previous judgement, fine. I just wanna make sure everything that people want to say has been said.

Same goes for Mario. If someone disagrees, speak up.

 

[Wogrim]

Mario isn't THAT hard....

His FSmash and cape are good, but his fireballs are not (although better than Luigi's, they're still slow and are easily outprioritized). Everything else has really poor range. He can gimp us pretty hard, but his recovery is really poor.

40-60, maybe 45-55

For Fox, I'm fine with 40-60 and don't want to type out a big post explaining why. His shine can gimp almost as well as cape so I don't see how you could consider Mario to be more difficult.

 

[Zeallyx]

Mario isn't THAT hard....

His FSmash and cape are good, but his fireballs are not (although better than Luigi's, they're still slow and are easily outprioritized). Everything else has really poor range. He can gimp us pretty hard, but his recovery is really poor.

40-60, maybe 45-55

For Fox, I'm fine with 40-60 and don't want to type out a big post explaining why. His shine can gimp almost as well as cape so I don't see how you could consider Mario to be more difficult.

Just to get this straight (not only directed at wogrim), fox is even with samus? (both 40-60)
Are you guys sure that is right?

 

[Wogrim]

Just to get this straight (not only directed at wogrim), fox is even with samus? (both 40-60)
Are you guys sure that is right?

No, Fox is harder. I never claimed 40-60 Samus.

Although to get our bearings straight I do agree that comparing the difficulties among different characters helps.

 

[Player-3]

i never said anything about marios fireballs, its more of the fact that a mario can pretty much kill you with 3 moves.
utilt
uair
side b

yeah...

 

[A2ZOMG]

His FSmash and cape are good, but his fireballs are not (although better than Luigi's, they're still slow and are easily outprioritized). Everything else has really poor range. He can gimp us pretty hard, but his recovery is really poor.

If you think Mario's recovery is bad, you haven't played a good Mario.

His recovery is gimpable if he does it wrong and always DIs badly, but he has a lot of options offstage and if he picks correctly, you're not gimping him anytime soon. His midair jump is very good. Much better than Falcon's by far, and when combined with smart use of the broken air dodge system, he can be very difficult to keep offstage. He can Cape stall not just to gain distance, but to wait out edgeguard attempts. He can control space offstage with fireball spam as he recovers, and he has a number of useful aerials that can be annoying to work around as he's recovering. He also ledgestalls very well, so once he makes it to the ledge, you're not punishing him at all, and Mario's options for actually getting back on the stage from the ledge are also good.

His recovery is no worse than someone like Marth's persay. They are punishable and gimpable if they do it wrong, but a smart player who knows their options should almost always make it back and only occasionally get punished on the way back.

Like, the only thing Falcon will be able to easily land on Mario's recovery is a sourspot F-air due to the lingering hitbox. Which only will gimp Mario either at really really really high percents, or if you somehow managed to get him out of the beginning of his midair jump.

Falcon on the other hand does not have many good options offstage. Due to his high fall speed, he has much more commitment to his recovery moves which can be easily punished by a good player, and he is absolutely terrible on the ledge. Sure, the distance on his recovery may look good, but he has by far much less safety on his recovery when compared to the vast majority of the cast.

 

[Noodlehead]

mario
he's he king of gimp in this game. he has fireball,cape,and flud. never recover with raptor boost, it will cause you a whole stock. look out for his utilt chain, it works until about 30%. mario's main aerial move is bair. his uair juggles falcon easily. when approaching a few fireballs may head your way, just powershield or hop over them. fireballs aren't really a big problem, their just there to annoy you and get in your way. watch out for dsmash out of shield, it comes out quickly. mario also has a jab lock, not really important but just something to keep in mind. mario can combo and build damage real good, but i think he lacks killing power. random info, his stutter step goes pretty far. overall hes not that hard, the biggest problem is his cape.

 

[F5Hazardousdoc]

Ehh, mario's recovery is pretty crappy though. I mean, its fast and has a hellza lots of priority, but whenever I play him or play against people who use mario, if they get knocked away too far, they can't recover if ya hog em.

I know the cape stall is good though, MINDGAMESZ SON!

 

[Wogrim]

If you think Mario's recovery is bad, you haven't played a good Mario.

His recovery is gimpable if he does it wrong and always DIs badly, but he has a lot of options offstage and if he picks correctly, you're not gimping him anytime soon. His midair jump is very good. Much better than Falcon's by far, and when combined with smart use of the broken air dodge system, he can be very difficult to keep offstage. He can Cape stall not just to gain distance, but to wait out edgeguard attempts. He can control space offstage with fireball spam as he recovers, and he has a number of useful aerials that can be annoying to work around as he's recovering. He also ledgestalls very well, so once he makes it to the ledge, you're not punishing him at all, and Mario's options for actually getting back on the stage from the ledge are also good.

His recovery is no worse than someone like Marth's persay. They are punishable and gimpable if they do it wrong, but a smart player who knows their options should almost always make it back and only occasionally get punished on the way back.

Like, the only thing Falcon will be able to easily land on Mario's recovery is a sourspot F-air due to the lingering hitbox. Which only will gimp Mario either at really really really high percents, or if you somehow managed to get him out of the beginning of his midair jump.

Falcon on the other hand does not have many good options offstage. Due to his high fall speed, he has much more commitment to his recovery moves which can be easily punished by a good player, and he is absolutely terrible on the ledge. Sure, the distance on his recovery may look good, but he has by far much less safety on his recovery when compared to the vast majority of the cast.

This is just theory that I haven't gotten to test, but why can't Falcon do something like drop off UAir or reverse Falcon Dive when Mario tries to use his cape to stall and outlast invincibility frames from edgehogging? People always assume we're just going to sit still while you stall, but do we have to?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ehh, mario's recovery is pretty crappy though. I mean, its fast and has a hellza lots of priority, but whenever I play him or play against people who use mario, if they get knocked away too far, they can't recover if ya hog em.

That is why you don't DI badly like a nub, or Up-B to land on stage in case they hog the ledge. As long as you aren't stupid with your midair jump you should make it back like 99% of the time, and only actually get gimped by something really ridiculous like G&W's D-smash, which not many people can survive anyway.

This is just theory that I haven't gotten to test, but why can't Falcon do something like drop off UAir or reverse Falcon Dive when Mario tries to use his cape to stall and outlast invincibility frames from edgehogging? People always assume we're just going to sit still while you stall, but do we have to?

That isn't the only thing Mario can do on the ledge. Mario's Up-B and fireballs are also good when edgestalling. Mario can do ledgedrop Cape -> B-air to get back on stage.

I've ledgeteched reverse Falcon Dive pretty consistently (well, a long time ago, so I might need practice as of now). Ledgetech jump = free N-air, U-air, or maybe F-air edgeguard on Falcon. U-air or B-air is a better option against edgestallers, but usually by the time you approach the ledge, most Mario mains should be smart enough to choose to just get back on stage instead.

 

[ThatGuy]

Hi guys, just my 2 cents. I always thought the Mario vs. Falcon matchup was laughable at best. Practically everything Mario has can destroy Falcon. However, I lost to Ally's Falcon in a friendly, so I guess it's possible, but you really have to outplay Mario here.

 

[F5Hazardousdoc]

Hi guys, just my 2 cents. I always thought the Mario vs. Falcon matchup was laughable at best. Practically everything Mario has can destroy Falcon. However, I lost to Ally's Falcon in a friendly, so I guess it's possible, but you really have to outplay Mario here.

Practically everything... what?

You DO realize falcon has longer range, RIGHT?

RIGHT?

Gawd, your fsmash is the only move the outranges falcon in this fight, otherwise falcon has the greater range. Lerntounderstimatelesskthnx

 

[Dxkid]

meh I would say Mario is 60-40 but Falcon can win this matchup it not hard the only thing that i say to worry about is Cape and Fludd but if im right(which im probly not) Mario has better air game than Falcon while Falcon has better ground game?

I need more matches with good Marios but thats just my 2 cents correct me if im wrong pl0x

as for Fox im happy with 40-60

 

[Judge Judy]

Just some pros and cons to throw out there.

Pros:

+CF is faster in terms of mobility

Cons:

-Mario has more priority

-Mario can more reliably gimp CF than vice-versa


I'd say this match-up is 60:40/65:35 in Mario's favor; Mario ***** CF in the air and off-stage, but CF's mobility helps him keep up with Mario and CF does decent against Mario on the ground.

 

[Wogrim]

That is why you don't DI badly like a nub, or Up-B to land on stage in case they hog the ledge. As long as you aren't stupid with your midair jump you should make it back like 99% of the time, and only actually get gimped by something really ridiculous like G&W's D-smash, which not many people can survive anyway.

That isn't the only thing Mario can do on the ledge. Mario's Up-B and fireballs are also good when edgestalling. Mario can do ledgedrop Cape -> B-air to get back on stage.

I've ledgeteched reverse Falcon Dive pretty consistently (well, a long time ago, so I might need practice as of now). Ledgetech jump = free N-air, U-air, or maybe F-air edgeguard on Falcon. U-air or B-air is a better option against edgestallers, but usually by the time you approach the ledge, most Mario mains should be smart enough to choose to just get back on stage instead.

No I wasn't talking about after Mario already gets to the stage, I was talking about when you try to edgehog Mario's up-B and he uses his cape to stall through the invincibility frames.

Just some pros and cons to throw out there.

Pros:

+CF is faster in terms of mobility

Cons:

-Mario has more priority

-Mario can more reliably gimp CF than vice-versa


I'd say this match-up is 60:40/65:35 in Mario's favor; Mario ***** CF in the air and off-stage, but CF's mobility helps him keep up with Mario and CF does decent against Mario on the ground.

Mario beats Falcon in the air only at close range. With decent spacing he can't '****' Falcon with anything except cape gimps.

 

[Judge Judy]

Mario beats Falcon in the air only at close range. With decent spacing he can't '****' Falcon with anything except cape gimps.

Mario's Bair has ≥ reach than any of CF's aerials and Mario's hitboxes expand during his atks.

 

[F5Hazardousdoc]

Mario's Bair has ≥ reach than any of CF's aerials and Mario's hitboxes expand during his atks.

falcon's bair still has insane priority at the sweetspot on the tip. Seriously. I almost outprioritized GaW's dsmash with it, I heard the *clink* sound effect, but i still got smacked :'(

Bair also has alot of range. Nair has quite a bit of range, beating most *if not all* sex kicks in range. Uair has mega awesome range and is uber fast too, meaning dropping aerials on falcon will be hard.

Mario's bair still has that long ranged thing that makes this a hard matchup, but falcon can still trade blows via shuair, utilt, shbair, and potentially angled up ftilt. While trading blows isn't recommended *its always better to just space and falcon kick if you bair*, falcon CAN trade blows since he has a faster KO speed here.

 

[Wogrim]

Hell, trade blows with the knee if you're gonna trade blows.

 

[Ayaz18]

you guys know that Mario who made "the Mario Combo video"? yeah well I played him and beat in the past. Since then i'v become way better and would like to say that the match-up isn't as hard as some make it out to be, his fireballs and cape and the only problem.

stop talking about spacing people! the argument that character A has more range than character B is not that important especially somebody like Mario who pretty much has the same range as C. Falcon. What you should be talking about is who has the batter approach options, recovery options, baiting options, comboability, etc.

 

[Player-3]

you guys know that Mario who made "the Mario Combo video"? yeah well I played him and beat in the past. Since then i'v become way better and would like to say that the match-up isn't as hard as some make it out to be, his fireballs and cape and the only problem.

stop talking about spacing people! the argument that character A has more range than character B is not that important especially somebody like Mario who pretty much has the same range as C. Falcon. What you should be talking about is who has the batter approach options, recovery options, baiting options, comboability, etc.

mario, mario, mario and mario

 

[Darxmarth23]

mario, mario, mario and mario

Its actually mario, mario, mario, mario ,and mario.

You highlighted 5 things yet only responded to 4. Don't forget the etc.

 

[A2ZOMG]

No I wasn't talking about after Mario already gets to the stage, I was talking about when you try to edgehog Mario's up-B and he uses his cape to stall through the invincibility frames.

I'm pretty sure Mario can B-air or U-air before you are allowed to leave the edge in that scenario. Then he still has midair jump and Up-B to make it back from there. Just sayin'.

 

[mario brawler]

you guys know that Mario who made "the Mario Combo video"? yeah well I played him and beat in the past. Since then i'v become way better and would like to say that the match-up isn't as hard as some make it out to be, his fireballs and cape and the only problem.

there are alot of mario combo videos, specify a bit more pls?
oh and, if you want to, do you want to brawl? I really would like to play a Falcon thats a bit better than just decent
not to be negative, but I do think the match up is that bad, I'd love to be proved wrong though, I feel sorry for Falcon D:

 

[ThatGuy]

Practically everything... what?

You DO realize falcon has longer range, RIGHT?

RIGHT?

Gawd, your fsmash is the only move the outranges falcon in this fight, otherwise falcon has the greater range. Lerntounderstimatelesskthnx

I'm pretty sure that doesn't matter. Falcon's attacks and lag make it very difficult for him to get a good timing assault on Mario, not to mention his priority is utter trash. Using Fsmash with Mario is a silly idea. Mario dominates this fight with Fireballs, Utilts, and Bairs.

Ayaz, if you're talking about the same combo video I'm thinking of, then I feel like hitting you . I'll rip your Falcon apart at OBscene or FFYF2 if you choose to attend either.

 

[Ayaz18]

yeah it was actually called "Mario combo Video" by some ikp......something dude.......he's on my friend list so if you really want to know just look him up (don't worry I don't have many friends ................ )

but for the questions I highlighted discuss them people, Mario has his fireball as an approach, pretty much better than all of our approaches. I think Falcon has a better recovery than Mario though...........iv honestly been able to recovery at ridiculous heights. Mario's fireball once again helps him in his baiting options as he has the option of CAMPING yaaaaaaaay. ****.

but here are Falcon's advantages in my opinion:

better recovery
more power
more mobility speed
a broader range of combo's (i'll explain later)
range (i'll explain later again)

 

[SkylerOcon]

better recovery

Cape.

more power

This would be true if his kill moves weren't so slow and preditable.

more mobility speed

Alright.

a broader range of combo's (i'll explain later)

Mario and MK are the only characters with something that even resembles a 'broad' range of combos in Brawl.

range (i'll explain later again)

You don't have to explain. This is true.

70-30 Mario. Falcon loses. Badly. All Mario really has to do in this match-up is get Falcon off-stage, Nair/Uair/Bair his second jump, and then Falcon loses.

 

[Judge Judy]

CF's recovery distance only slightly beats Mario's but Mario's recovery is far safer than CF's in every way.