Captain Falcon's MANLY Matchup Guide/Discussion Thread Week 16: Yoshi/Sonic

[Roager]

CF's recovery distance only slightly beats Mario's but Mario's recovery is far safer than CF's in every way.

Not EVERY way.

Falcon's can get out of FD's lip.

Falcon's can grab from a pretty good distance away (both ledge and opponent)

Falcon's is more maneuverable (DI does a grand total of 0 to Mario's upB, unless i'm mistaken)

If we include Falcon's side-b as recovery, then we have a new set of advantages/disadvantages for Falcon.

 

[Zeallyx]

Not EVERY way.

Falcon's can get out of FD's lip.

Falcon's can grab from a pretty good distance away (both ledge and opponent)

Falcon's is more maneuverable (DI does a grand total of 0 to Mario's upB, unless i'm mistaken)

If we include Falcon's side-b as recovery, then we have a new set of advantages/disadvantages for Falcon.

Only, using side b in this matchup is a very bad idea (due to mario's cape)

 

[Roager]

Only, using side b in this matchup is a very bad idea (due to mario's cape)

That's kinda beside the point. The point is that Mario's recovery isn't as hard-and-fast better as the Judge Judy said it was.

 

[Zeallyx]

That's kinda beside the point. The point is that Mario's recovery isn't as hard-and-fast better as the Judge Judy said it was.

It is not beside the point, as we are discussing the mario-falcon matchup.
But in the sense of beeing less gimpable, mario's does win by far.

 

[Ayaz18]

Cape.

The magnetic ledges in Brawl protect me from the Cape, maybe in melee when is was abuse-able

This would be true if his kill moves weren't so slow and preditable.

well Falcon's Dsmash get's in an out allowing for a REALLY good spacing tool that is a killer, Fsmash has ridiculous range, and Usmash covers about half of FD with canceled from a dash. There are ways to become non-predictable with Falcon, it's the same with M2 in melee.

Alright.

sweet.

Mario and MK are the only characters with something that even resembles a 'broad' range of combos in Brawl.

I smell a bias here. DK has Dtilt to anything combo's, Ness has PK fire to anything combo's, Falcon has Nair to KNEE combo's (on some characters). Please man, everyone has combo's, Mario is like Kirby, really combo-tastic with low % but can't combo at higher percentages (besides fireball)

You don't have to explain. This is true.

awesome.

70-30 Mario. Falcon loses. Badly. All Mario really has to do in this match-up is get Falcon off-stage, Nair/Uair/Bair his second jump, and then Falcon loses.

a shallow reading I think, You obviously haven't played a good Falcon. I don't blame you either, this post isn't offensive by any means it's just that I don't think you have the right to discuss a match-up without playing it at competitive play. When the R.O.B match-up was going on I totally mellowed away because of Holy being my only Rob practice.

60:40

 

[mario brawler]

anyone want to brawl for the sake of this discussion?
60-40 seems wrong to me, 70-30 looks a bit more right
maybe some of you Falcons have'nt played some decent mario's
or maybe I have'nt played a decent falcon...
anyone up for a couple matches?

 

[Zeallyx]

anyone want to brawl for the sake of this discussion?
60-40 seems wrong to me, 70-30 looks a bit more right
maybe some of you Falcons have'nt played some decent mario's
or maybe I have'nt played a decent falcon...
anyone up for a couple matches?

Comparing the ratio to other characters:
falcon-fox = 40-60
falcon-samus = 40-60
falcon-mario = 40-60

Something doesn't seem right..

 

[SkylerOcon]

a shallow reading I think, You obviously haven't played a good Falcon. I don't blame you either, this post isn't offensive by any means it's just that I don't think you have the right to discuss a match-up without playing it at competitive play. When the R.O.B match-up was going on I totally mellowed away because of Holy being my only Rob practice.

No, I have played a good Falcon. Also, don't respond to people in quotes -- it makes it hard for them to respond to you.

The magnetic ledges in Brawl protect me from the Cape, maybe in melee when is was abuse-able

Lol at this. Unless the Mario is ********, he won't be trying to cape the Falcon once he's in range for the magnet ledge. And if you're relying on the ledge, that means you get edgehogged.

well Falcon's Dsmash get's in an out allowing for a REALLY good spacing tool that is a killer, Fsmash has ridiculous range, and Usmash covers about half of FD with canceled from a dash. There are ways to become non-predictable with Falcon, it's the same with M2 in melee.

Dsmash takes just long enough to start-up for me to be able and shield/roll-dodge away.

Fsmash takes way to long to start up for this to ever be a thread. Mario's Stutter-stepped fsmash outranges your fsmash.

Usmash is his only smash I feels threatened by. Though any good player should be expecting a Usmash if the Falcon starts running towards you.

I smell a bias here. DK has Dtilt to anything combo's, Ness has PK fire to anything combo's, Falcon has Nair to KNEE combo's (on some characters). Please man, everyone has combo's, Mario is like Kirby, really combo-tastic with low % but can't combo at higher percentages (besides fireball)

Everybody else has about two or three combos! Watch out! Mario can just fireball to anything at higher percents. Falcon can... Neutral air us or something?! I think that Nair knocks us too far away for you to knee.

I have played a good Falcon. He doesn't main him, but uses him very well. I have trouble against his Falcon, and his GaW ***** me <_<

Match-up is 35-65 Mario at the very least.

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

i have more trouble with fox than i do with samus.
its a trap

 

[Zodac]

back air -> cape ->edgehog (if needed) -> dead.
I found falcon the 2nd easiest character to gimp with the cape after gannondorf, but gimping falcon is more fun 'cause he misses the edge by a mile XD.

fireballs cancel out a-lot of falcons moves.

mario can combo better.

Up-tilt juggle at low %? i suppose that would work cause falcons pretty heavy (sorry if this has been covered)

mario will kill horrizontally taking away falcons vertical resistance.

Maybe go yoshi island for walljumping might help, but mario can wall jump to.

horrible match-up, i'd say as bad as snake 30:70

 

[__V]

Mario: 60-40.

He can combo you into hell and you can't do anything. He can gimp you. He has priority and deceptive range.

 

[Zeallyx]

Mario: 60-40.

He can combo you into hell and you can't do anything. He can gimp you. He has priority and deceptive range.

sounds more like 65-35ish (mario's favor)

 

[Zodac]

oh, and if you don't sweespot the edge mario's throws can kill at high % or set up a cape gimp.

 

[Ayaz18]

yeah i'm agreeing with knee about our match-up numbers, really inconsistant. but all three characters have projectiles and similar properties I guess........

K because I lack quoting skillz i'm going to informally go over you arguments =D

Stutter Fsmash works for Falcon too, it rival's wolf's Fsmash in range....

about the ledges.........unless Mario is goingt o extremes to gimp a Falcon, Falcon can survive 99% of the time, Falcon dive has ridiculous height, try it in training, and when you try to recover from a failed gimp your going to get edge-hogged, ironic eh? And about the Nair knee combo's work TKONTK has avid about it, if the Knee doesn't connect Dsmash is an auto connect in pretty much every situation.

uhhhhhhh........I give up responding and debating

too much work, i'll just kick their ***'s at Genesis all at once when I get mah favorite placing 17!


and also someone who seconds Falcon isn't a good Falcon >_> Falcon requires A LOT of attention to become good (unless your Ally)

 

[Noodlehead]

Comparing the ratio to other characters:
falcon-fox = 40-60
falcon-samus = 40-60
falcon-mario = 40-60

Something doesn't seem right..

-original ratios
mk 20/80
snake 30/70
falco 25/75
ddd 35/65
gaw 30/70
marth 25/75
rob 40/60
luc 30/70
kirby 30/70
dk 30/70
peach 35/65
luigi 40/60
bowser 40/60
ike 35/65
samus 45/55
ganon 45/55
falcon 50/50

-my opinion
mk 20/80
snake 30/70
falco 30/70
ddd 35/65
gaw 35/65
marth 35/65
rob 40/60
luc 40/60
kirby 40/60
dk 40/60
peach 40/60
luigi 40/60
bowser 45/55
ike 45/55
samus 45/55
ganon 45/55
falcon 50/50
mario 40/60

edit: i'll probably come up with a more detailed one tomorrow(without rounding)

 

[Judge Judy]

Falcon's can get out of FD's lip..

It's not like Mario is automatically trapped if he's under FD's lip.

Falcon's can grab from a pretty good distance away (both ledge and opponent)

Mario can do the same thing, except grab an opponent obviously.

Falcon's is more maneuverable (DI does a grand total of 0 to Mario's upB, unless i'm mistaken).

You can change the trajectory of Mario's Up B during startup; basically you can trade some of Mario's horizontal distance with his Up B for additional vertical distance.

If we include Falcon's side-b as recovery, then we have a new set of advantages/disadvantages for Falcon.

Raptor boost is in no way a safe recovery move, especially in this match-up where Mario can easily just cape it.

 

[lordhelmet]

It sucks that ther nerfed Falcon so badly -.-

I can still get some crazy justice on people, but he was so much better in melee

 

[F5Hazardousdoc]

It sucks that ther nerfed Falcon so badly -.-

I can still get some crazy justice on people, but he was so much better in melee

Is this a discussion about falcon's MATCHUPS or the baw corner? Take it to someone who cares :|

Cape.



This would be true if his kill moves weren't so slow and preditable.



Alright.



Mario and MK are the only characters with something that even resembles a 'broad' range of combos in Brawl.



You don't have to explain. This is true.

70-30 Mario. Falcon loses. Badly. All Mario really has to do in this match-up is get Falcon off-stage, Nair/Uair/Bair his second jump, and then Falcon loses.

1. I wasn't aware cape gives you horizontal or vertical movement! I must have seriously understimated mari-...
Wait it DOESN'T. You don't have a better recovery, but cape adds SAFETY, not recovery. It kill horizontal movement, so its not a cure all answer too.

2. I loled. Dsmash isn't slow, fsmash is FASTER than dsmash and has alot of range, bair is fast, dair is fast, uair is VERY fast. Falcon has many kill options, and has 3 VERY early kill options, Nipple thrust *upwards hitbox of dair*, Falcon punch *LOL*, and then knee *KO's at 80%... ish* If you're playing a predictable falcon, then he sucks. XD

3. SKIP

4. What is this I don't even

5. Yep.

Its not a huge disadvantage, fireball doesn't create a wall of damage and force approach as much as other projectiles, because its very short ranged. 65:35, if only the match were so easy as landing a nair on falcon's second jump, eh? LOL
Snake would be easy, all we gotta do is KNEE HIM RIGHT?

CF's recovery distance only slightly beats Mario's but Mario's recovery is far safer than CF's in every way.

Uhh... no. CF's horizontal and vertical recovery far exceed mario's. FAR. Mario's has mega high priority and the cape adds stalling and defense to his recovery, but I wouldn't rate it better than falcon's by a long shot. And please don't argue DI, DI is universal :|

back air -> cape ->edgehog (if needed) -> dead.
I found falcon the 2nd easiest character to gimp with the cape after gannondorf, but gimping falcon is more fun 'cause he misses the edge by a mile XD.

fireballs cancel out a-lot of falcons moves.

mario can combo better.

Up-tilt juggle at low %? i suppose that would work cause falcons pretty heavy (sorry if this has been covered)

mario will kill horrizontally taking away falcons vertical resistance.

Maybe go yoshi island for walljumping might help, but mario can wall jump to.

horrible match-up, i'd say as bad as snake 30:70

I can see SOME gimping here, but nothing SERIOUS. Samus would have a better time of gimping falcon IMO. Besides, if you get falcon dived, mario will be hard pressed to recover.

Wait... what? Its a projectile, they cancel out ALOT OF MOVES. Good job realizing that? Falcon kick and raptor boost clash em, letting falcon smack em away while approaching simultaneously.

Ugh... I thought about all the ways I can type that their combo game is pretty identical but that'd be redundant.

Utilt juggle = nothing new. Next?

The rest is boring stuff that doesn't make a bit of difference.

This is nowhere as close as bad as snake... XD
SNAKE HAS MORE RANGE OMG. He can whack falcon out of practically every approach, while mario has to watch his spacing.

It's not like Mario is automatically trapped if he's under FD's lip.

Mario can do the same thing, except grab an opponent obviously.

You can change the trajectory of Mario's Up B during startup; basically you can trade some of Mario's horizontal distance with his Up B for additional vertical distance.

Raptor boost is in no way a safe recovery move, especially in this match-up where Mario can easily just cape it.

1. Ehh, pretty darned close to it though. I was under the influence FD wasn't a good stage for mario.

2. What? Who even BROUGHT UP GRAB RANGE? Gawd *pulls out machine gun*
Unless your grab range is ballz *ganon* or insane good *lolimar* it doesn't really matter :|

3. What? Lol, SUUUURE. So, instead of very crappy vertical recovery, you get mediocre vertical recovery. I always hated mario's recovery... it's... so out of place for the king of jumps.

4. TKONTK already covered that lol. NEVER RAPTOR BOOST RECOVERY WHEN FIGHTING MARIO JEEZ.

I hold my stand on 40-60 to 35-65. No worse, but its not any better either.

 

[F5Hazardousdoc]

Oopsie, missed one.

No, I have played a good Falcon. Also, don't respond to people in quotes -- it makes it hard for them to respond to you.



Lol at this. Unless the Mario is ********, he won't be trying to cape the Falcon once he's in range for the magnet ledge. And if you're relying on the ledge, that means you get edgehogged.



Dsmash takes just long enough to start-up for me to be able and shield/roll-dodge away.

Fsmash takes way to long to start up for this to ever be a thread. Mario's Stutter-stepped fsmash outranges your fsmash.

Usmash is his only smash I feels threatened by. Though any good player should be expecting a Usmash if the Falcon starts running towards you.

Everybody else has about two or three combos! Watch out! Mario can just fireball to anything at higher percents. Falcon can... Neutral air us or something?! I think that Nair knocks us too far away for you to knee.

I have played a good Falcon. He doesn't main him, but uses him very well. I have trouble against his Falcon, and his GaW ***** me <_<

Match-up is 35-65 Mario at the very least.

1. Who'd ya play? And yeah, answering people in quotes r bad dun do it.

2. Falcon's usually don't have to rely on the ledge to recover, but falcon can wait a fraction of a second longer to recover and falcon dive ledge guarders. Though I always forget to do that *bad habit from snake, RECOVER HIIIIIGH*

3. Shielding is your best bet, roll dodge doesn't allow for follow up. Spot dodgers take a foot through their skull from a mindgamed dsmash though. A pivot boosted fsmash however, can follow somebody who rolls though, ya gotta be careful. Which is why ROLLING IS BAD. You gotta watch out for dsmash for its RANGE though, it has some very nice range and it starts up with decent speed.

4. Fsmash pivot boosted outranges mario's fsmash. BUT, mario's fsmash outprioritzes it, so its a moot point. Big PH1R3 > Elbow of justice, sadly. Elbow comes out faster than dsmash though >_>

5. Good, so I can use a RARed bair, shield > grab, shflubbedknee, autocancelled dair, interrupt the dash with a raptor boost/falcon kick, jump over you and bair, dash attack, etc.
THEN use upsmash when you've totally forgotten that it exists when you see falcon has more than one approach option. :|

6. Oh gawd, don't even get me started on all the stuff falcon can cancel to other stuff. Flubbed knee, canceled nair, autocanceled dair, hell even bair at low percents. And thats just aerials.

Closing: Play a falcon here. I haven't played them though, so I dunno, but I can guess they are perty good. I have an OK falcon as well, perhaps we should have another topic where the falcons and marios can duke it out? Like how Dryn challenged falcons in his thread for the matchup topic? Ehh, thats something else though. I agree with your matchup ratio though, 35:65 sounds good.

 

[Judge Judy]

1. I wasn't aware cape gives you horizontal or vertical movement! I must have seriously understimated mari-...
Wait it DOESN'T. You don't have a better recovery, but cape adds SAFETY, not recovery. It kill horizontal movement, so its not a cure all answer too.

The cape does add a small amount of horizontal and vertical distance to Mario's recovery upon its first usage, but after the first cape the cape only stalls vertical height.

I can see SOME gimping here, but nothing SERIOUS. Samus would have a better time of gimping falcon IMO. Besides, if you get falcon dived, mario will be hard pressed to recover.

FLUDD and cape are pretty serious threats against CF's recovery.

Wait... what? Its a projectile, they cancel out ALOT OF MOVES. Good job realizing that? Falcon kick and raptor boost clash em, letting falcon smack em away while approaching simultaneously.

Having to clash with fireballs repeatedly just to approach is not a very good option.

I hold my stand on 40-60 to 35-65. No worse, but its not any better either.

I pretty much agree with you for the most part; Skyler, like I've said stated before, can come off kind of...blunt.

 

[Wogrim]

Was Mario's fireballs one of the things Falcon Kick goes through or do they clank?

I'm glad F5 took the time to respond to a lot of these posts.

 

[Judge Judy]

Was Mario's fireballs one of the things Falcon Kick goes through or do they clank?

I'm glad F5 took the time to respond to a lot of these posts.

They clank, same with raptor boost.

 

[mario brawler]

35-65
Mario combos better
Mario gimps better
Mario can kill easier
Mario has fireballs
Mario has great aerials
Mario can u-tilt chain
Mario has cape

 

[Noodlehead]

35-65
Mario combos better
Mario gimps better
Mario can kill easier
Mario has fireballs
Mario has great aerials
Mario can u-tilt chain
Mario has cape

40-60
it wouldnt match up with our other ratios...

 

[Zeallyx]

40-60
it wouldnt match up with our other ratios...

Even when falcon-mario is 40-60, it doesn't add up..

samus-falcon = 60-40
Fox-falcon = 60-40

 

[Player-3]

Even when falcon-mario is 40-60, it doesn't add up..

samus-falcon = 60-40
Fox-falcon = 60-40

why are you comparing ratios to other chars
=|

 

[Zeallyx]

why are you comparing ratios to other chars
=|

you dont understand.

samus vs falcon = said to be 40-60, samus' favor

mario vs falcon = said to be 40-60 mario's favor

fox vs falcon = said to be 40-60, fox's favor

just one example, vs fox is a harder matchup for falcon, than vs samus.

In short, something(s) is(/are) wrong with our ratio(s)

 

[Player-3]

How do you know that it's a harder matchup

 

[Zeallyx]

How do you know that it's a harder matchup

by having played both..
how else?

and also, if you dont believe me, ask the rest of the board.
Fox is harder than samus (for falcon)

the matchup ratios vs samus, mario and fox just aren't correct when you compare them.

 

[Player-3]

they seem right to me.. ive played all 3

 

[Zeallyx]

they seem right to me.. ive played all 3

How can you say mario, samus and fox are all equally as hard to beat..
The fact is, the ratios are incorrect.

 

[Player-3]

How can you say mario, samus and fox are all equally as hard to beat..
The fact is, the ratios are incorrect.

because they are...
fox is easy to gimp, but he kills easy
samus is hard to gimp, but cant kill
mario is easy to kill, and can gimp easily

 

[Zeallyx]

because they are...
fox is easy to gimp, but he kills easy
samus is hard to gimp, but cant kill
mario is easy to kill, and can gimp easily

Those things alone dont determine the ratio.
I am sorry, but you are incorrect. The ratios are incorrect.

 

[Player-3]

Those things alone dont determine the ratio.
I am sorry, but you are incorrect. The ratios are incorrect.

Jerkface
]:

thats how i view them.. theyll be 60:40 forever and ever and ever in my HART

 

[mario brawler]

Mario, is by no means easy to kill by Falcon, and when he does get killed, Falcon is already down a stock or two
Mario has much more advantages against Falcon than Fox or Samus

 

[Player-3]

Mario, is by no means easy to kill by Falcon, and when he does get killed, Falcon is already down a stock or two
Mario has much more advantages against Falcon than Fox or Samus

...
No...
just no...
if it was that bad the ratio would be 80:20

 

[Zeallyx]

Mario, is by no means easy to kill by Falcon, and when he does get killed, Falcon is already down a stock or two
Mario has much more advantages against Falcon than Fox or Samus

Not much, if any more than fox, but mario sure is harder than samus (for falcon).

and@ player-3:
Mario brawler is not far from the truth at all.

 

[Player-3]

Not much, if any more than fox, but mario sure is harder than samus (for falcon).

and@ player-3:
Mario brawler is not far from the truth at all.

then my falcon must be ****ing amazing because i usually get the first kill on marios

 

[Zeallyx]

then my falcon must be ****ing amazing because i usually get the first kill on marios

I hope you understand that doesn't contribute to this matchup discussion at all.

 

[Ayaz18]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6bd1MUDXfE

whew took a while to find it............well not really I was just lazy and finally decided to find it

THIS is the Mario I beat at LBT, no clue if he's considered good in your community but regardless there it is.