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Can Marth become top tier again?

Niko45

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 16, 2008
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Westchester, NY
Falco vs Falcon is awful. Sheik vs Marth is awful. Don't really care which is worse cause its not relevant. either way falco has way better MUs than Marth. It's not johns its just facts.

This thread is just built for people who dont play marth to come pop off about how good he should be or whatever cause they would know.

:phone:
 

Kal

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 21, 2004
Messages
2,973
Niko, in my opinion Sheik vs. Marth is 6-4 or 55-45 in Sheik's favor. What makes you think it's awful?
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
marth is fine vs sheik so long as you're on neutral stages.
 

Dart!

Smash Master
Joined
May 12, 2010
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East Peoria, IL
lol marth is a great character.....you're all basically attempting to john for the character. someone needs to step it up and utilize him at a top level( besides m2k).

btw I agree with everything reneblaster said
Ganon main. LOLOLOLOL
 

Kal

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 21, 2004
Messages
2,973
unless you main marth or falcon please don't comment on matchup difficulty.
How is this even remotely fair or reasonable? Don't be one of those people that *****es and moans about how other people can't "appreciate" how difficult match-ups are for him.
 

Palpi

Smash Hero
Joined
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Messages
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Yardley, Pennsylvania
Yeah seriously, you are an ignorant fool if you think Marth / sheik is worse than falcon/falco...and I play all of those characters..Cept sheik

:phone:
 

Roneblaster

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Marth vs sheik isnt that much worse than falcon vs falco. This guy(dart) would **** on 100% of you (cept maybe guini) and learned all problem MU's that has come his way.

I trust his judgement over players ive never seen play or even heard of.

:phone:
 

OverLord

Smash Ace
Joined
Aug 14, 2010
Messages
645
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Roma, Italy
You are right 'Blaster, but just always keep in mind to try not to fall in an "appeal to authority" argument.

Dart is utterly good, but if I keep his thoughts and arguments on account is because you can see by his post on the board that he is a reasonable person who surely knows what he's talkin' about, not just because he is good at this game.

I personally think, playing Marth/Falcon, that Falcon-Falco is worse than Marth-Sheik, but also Marth-Sheik is my favourite match-up, so I can be influenced by the fact that I don't feel it so bad 'cause I like to play against Sheik. Lots of Marths just feel very uncomfy and so feel the MU way worse than I do.

But, also, I think it's reasonable to say that Falcon-Falco is mostly worse even in theory, so I wouldn't free the comparison between this two match-ups lightly.
 

Roneblaster

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Its not that hes so good. Ive seen it. Ive watched him 3 stocks kel's fox, beat his falco with regularity and then just get danced around by kel's sheik.

Same for tink, except tinks marth instead of falco. Then tink goes sheik and wins.

Something doesnt add up.

:phone:
 

OverLord

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Ok but, you are assuming Dart is playing the MU the best way possible and still loses? Maybe he just have to get the MU down in every aspect. It wouldn't be the first time that spacies players switch to Sheik to beat a Marth, and surely not the last, but my opinion is mostly -learn really well the MU if you feel like, and **** those Sheiks, 'cause it's not impossible-.

I don't know how much Dart is good in the MU tho, so if he wants to tell us exactly what he thinks about his sets against Tink and Kels, we all can work it out.

As I said for me it's really fun to play Sheik, so it's easier for me to do that, so if other Marths are that lucky, then I recommend to try hard and play the MU, if others instead really hate the MU, then it'll be really tough, but I see it more as a personal feeling than an objective "really bad" MU (really bad as Falcon-Falco).

Aside form this, we all agree Sheik is stupid and it's easy for her to deal against Marth, but I don't feel like a non-Sheik main switching to Sheik should be able to beat a Marth who knows well the MU.


PS: Don't ever think that saying Falcon-Falco is worse than Marth-Sheik means Falcon has no tools. I do think it's pretty winnable too. But I feel a real bad time playing Falcon against Falco, even tho I like it.

And I also feel pretty ashamed to play Falco against Falcon.
 

Ryucloud

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 18, 2008
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A Place Where *****s Are Real=Rhode Island BABY!!!
I feel people play marth on how mew2king plays it now and kinda limit themselves beacuse of the lacks of marths on the scene. i still feel like marth needs to be pushed a little more because of his potential but nobody picking him up if people can push pikachu link mewtwo marth def has a chance they just need to change the way they approach the character like you can take so much from ken and azen from back in the day they just need to understand marth a little bit more like mew2king perfected marth but they need to look back at the people who wrote the book on marth KEN and AZEN to really understand . marth not dead yet just that people want to play falco fox falcon because they fun to play and people want to play sheik cause she easy to play marth takes hard work and precise spacing and patience which people now a days just dont have or dont want to do

Think about a marth that was combined with Azen patiences and precise spacing , defense mindgames , with Kens aggressive safe style and Reads, with mew2king execution and precise punish game that marth would change the meta game
 

Roneblaster

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#MangoNation
Mew2king doesnt play marth vs sheik. M2k barrly plays marth. And he certainly wont play marth in a bad MU.

No overlord i dont think dart is playing it perfectly, but i feel that if the MU "isnt that bad" "55/45" then he wouldnt be losing anymore.

:phone:
 

OverLord

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Roma, Italy
Falcon can kill everyone faster than Marth.

Marth ends the combo (maybe)>edgeguard

Falcon do something>to something>to something>to knee

Feel free to put "whatever" instead of "something".


@ Roneblaster: k got the point. I don't agree, but well, peace. : )
 

Roneblaster

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I aint mad, didnt intend to try to start anything, you were making logical points and i was just explaining what i saw.

<3

:phone:
 

Palpi

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I was trolling about mew2king, meaning just because he is good doesn't mean he is right, he says dumb **** all the time, so do many top players.

:phone:
 

Pi

Smash Hero
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Feb 5, 2008
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Lake Mary, Florida
right now, to my knowledge, i think there are only 2 to maybe 4 top level players who's opinions should be weighted much higher than the rest of us

and as for the rest of us, we may or may not have a strong enough grasp on what actually goes on in each match as to claim that we truly 'know' something about this game

so with that in mind, i think the best way to go about sharing knowledge is to both give and take it with an open mind
 

Niko45

Smash Master
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Westchester, NY
Just FYI I think Marth v Sheik is one of my top 3 strongest matchups. Doesn't matter tho, I can still recognize that it's undeniably bad for Marth.

The thing with Marth vs Sheik that I think misleads some people into feeling like it's "not that bad" is that Marth has solid tools to hit Sheik from neutral position. Sheik's punish also, while very solid, is not fox/falcon level on Marth.

So it's not really a matchup with strong extremes anywhere it's just that when you really look at it everything is breaking against Marth.

Marth has a great sword and when he swings it at the correct time he will hit sheik a lot. However, Sheik can CC **** him off of really *any* slight misspacing (even a tipper late fair can be cc dsmashed if you didn't space the tipper extra immaculately). So Marth is forced to swing the sword at the right time with very very good spacing all the time. Hard, but nothing really unreasonable yet.

Problem is Sheik's neutral game is not free. She's got jank hitboxes that honestly marth should probably not even challenge (sheik bair, for instance). She has needles and platforms give her solid quick waveland fair approaches. She has better defensive options for whiffing an approach (better sidestep, crazy CC game, amazing jab, amazing roll). Her neutral game is much safer even if it will lose if Marth is just that god damn good.

Marth also has what I would describe as a "below average" shield, and Sheik's got solid hitboxes for stabbing. I've seen dair stab Marth's shield like crazy. Bair/Fair/dtilt also get in there at times.

So like Marth vs Sheik neutral game is pretty back and forth. Marth definitely gets in there enough tho. Evenish battle there I'd say. I've always said Marth vs Sheik from 0-80% is a tight *** battle. It's after that that things get out of hand.

The edgeguarding game is a slaughter. Marth is probably one of the worst characters in the game at punishing Sheik's on stage up B, and honestly this isn't even a situation where if you do it right you will just kill her. You're rolling the dice here. There are certain up Bs that roll up from the ledge will not punish and certain ones that stand up from ledge won't punish or won't punish well/offstage so you're already looking for some luck there. Then on top of that you don't really have a great timing window to punish her up B because Marth is so laggy so he needs to get up there and also get some space between him and sheik to give his fsmash some power and then he needs to do the fsmash all before sheik buffers shield. Messing this up also = you getting *****.

Meanwhile Sheik punishes and edgeguards Marth pretty methodically once he gets to high percents. There are a lot of times where sheik fails to edgeguard Marth and I understand he has some trickyness with going really low and sliding past that ledgehop bair with up B. But typically Marth doesn't get too out of hand. She also has a lot of ways to setup KOs with up air at completely reasonable % which requires no edgeguard at all. But even just in the means of GETTING her off stage, Marth also is disadvantaged, because Sheik gets you off stage with grab guaranteed and Marth does not. Needs an extra read to setup that next read to....the bazillian edgeguarding reads to eventually kill her at 180, etc.

So you might not see Sheiks completely molesting Marths because the matchup doesn't play out that way. She dies eventually but it just takes so long and she consistently kills you at a steady, solid pace. Over the course of 4 stocks it's just very hard to keep up, it's Marth's worst attrition battle.

It's kind of a very different bad matchup from Falcon vs Falco, since Falcon can kill Falco in a heartbeat if he actually *hits* Falco. He also gets punished and edgeguarded dumb hard but yea, Marth vs Sheik is a tried and true proven much slower paced uphill losing battle.
 

strawhats

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Mew2king doesnt play marth vs sheik. M2k barrly plays marth. And he certainly wont play marth in a bad MU.

No overlord i dont think dart is playing it perfectly, but i feel that if the MU "isnt that bad" "55/45" then he wouldnt be losing anymore.

:phone:
last time m2k went marth vs sheik in tournament (Over) he got 3 stocked. He also lost to KDJ's sheik with marth in his prime (2k7). Hence why he picked up sheik.
 

Palpi

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Falcons only chance is if the falco messes up, there is no neutral game with falco, he wins every neutral position with lasers.


Sheik is ghey though
:phone:
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
last time m2k went marth vs sheik in tournament (Over) he got 3 stocked. He also lost to KDJ's sheik with marth in his prime (2k7). Hence why he picked up sheik.
iirc, m2k hates marth vs sheik, and just hates sheik as a character in general.

but he's been playing sheik VERY well since early 2006 ish. he picked her up because he thought she was stupid (good).
 

Roneblaster

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He plays sheik and fox cause he wants to win. All matchups covered.

And id be willing to bet that he picked up sheik because he knew marth - sheik was dumb, but KDJ would whoop up on his fox with sheik too.

If u cant beat'em, join'em.
:phone:
 

Dart!

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East Peoria, IL
k dart whats the samus marth mm
name your price how much you're willing to lose. Samus gets ***** by marth.

Maybe Dart sucks against sheik?

I keed, I keed. Sheik vs marth is rough.
You're probably right.


Ok but, you are assuming Dart is playing the MU the best
way possible and still loses? .
I love reading your posts, you don't try to downgrade. you actually discuss things evenly. thank you.

Mew2king doesnt play marth vs sheik. M2k barrly plays marth. And he certainly wont play marth in a bad MU.

No overlord i dont think dart is playing it perfectly, but i feel that if the MU "isnt that bad" "55/45" then he wouldnt be losing anymore.

:phone:
i think instead of worrying about spacing tippered fsmashes everytime i'm going to force him offstage with a throw or put him into a techchase and then kill him off of that. i'll try something.
 

Niko45

Smash Master
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Westchester, NY
Just take the tippers when they come. When you're edgeguarding sheik all that matters is hitting her off again no matter how you do it.
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
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Spiral Mountain
How is Fox vs. Falco indisputably anything given that there are like three different ratios for it with large amounts of support? :glare:

If you guys are gonna sob and moan about Sheik why don't you just ditto the people that pull out pocket Sheik on you? If she's really that easy to play, then you should be able to take their space animal mains with her too, no problem :awesome:

Peepee says Falco loses to literally every character in the top 5. Including himself. Falco has no good matchups.

Dart starts out incredibly strong vs Sheik sometimes but then he can either not keep it up or drops the ball entirely (usually by F-smashing) and then lets Kels and Tink catch up (by F-smashing more). If you watched those sets and thought about what was going on, you would know that he can definitely beat these Sheiks...
 

OverLord

Smash Ace
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Aug 14, 2010
Messages
645
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Roma, Italy
I love reading your posts, you don't try to downgrade. you actually discuss things evenly. thank you.
I'm just trying to help <3


How is Fox vs. Falco indisputably anything given that there are like three different ratios for it with large amounts of support? :glare:
That just proves how even that MU is.


If you guys are gonna sob and moan about Sheik why don't you just ditto the people that pull out pocket Sheik on you? If she's really that easy to play, then you should be able to take their space animal mains with her too, no problem :awesome:
I think we can do it with Marth, but thanks for the support KK :awesome:

Dart starts out incredibly strong vs Sheik sometimes but then he can either not keep it up or drops the ball entirely (usually by F-smashing) and then lets Kels and Tink catch up (by F-smashing more). If you watched those sets and thought about what was going on, you would know that he can definitely beat these Sheiks >_>
That's what I thought.
 

Niko45

Smash Master
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Apr 16, 2008
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Westchester, NY
Pocket sheiks are free. You can't john about losing to somebody's secondary no matter what.

Sheik mains that know the matchup and are really gay and don't miss punishes/edgeguards/DI/mixup their up B locations are what is hard.

Btw, I beat a pretty good sheik main convincingly this weekend. I look like such a hypocrite.
 
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