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Can Marth become top tier again?

safehaven

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Nov 7, 2010
Messages
479
since when does this forum necessitate anything factual at all

lololol look at everything youve posted in this thread

im serious about the money matches also
speaking of factual things, wheres the evidence for me bieng a troll
"your posting says your a troll" sorry noob, thats an opinion
"no its fact i just know-" no..

overlord you are some random, why do u even post. w/e, all these kids hating.

o ya and sveet you are like the epitome of the kid who thinks hes smart cause he plays video games and doesnt talk to girls. unfortunately the stereotype is bad, tv is lying to you, and youre not actually smart cause of these things, you just act like it. oh well
 

ZoSo

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 7, 2003
Messages
2,885
Location
Melee
he may be amazing and the best guy in the world but generating some false image of yourself on smashboards tends to make u look like a douche. just saying
brb head exploding b/c irony
i only mm people who insult me for no reason

also im not

but if i meet you ill **** u up noob
LOL Peter you're bad at this game, stop talking ****.

I'm really not sure what people mean by Sheik vs. Marth being "that bad."

Like how bad is "that bad?"

Personally, I don't think it's any worse than 6:4 in Sheik's favor. Like, that's considered pretty bad in Street Fighter terms; the absolute worst matchups in SSF4 are like 7:3, and people still learn and win those matchups with dedication. But considering we have matchups like Bowser vs. Falcon/Sheik in this game... I mean Sheik is bad for Marth but not THAT bad.

But whatever your frame of reference, the simple fact of the matter and the thing that makes the matchup so gay is that Sheik just has a way ****ing easier time killing Marth than vice versa. I honestly believe the matchup is 100% playable and winnable, but you just have to outplay them and take more risks, which is pretty much the basis of "bad" matchups in fighting games.

As for the OP: I think Marth can become top tier again (whatever that means), but it would take some crazy brilliant player with an unusual or maybe just more fundamental style. I think what people have been saying about Marth just constantly forcing his opponent to make bad decisions and keeping them zoned (which to me means putting them in a position where you can hit them but they can't hit you, usually above you) is sort of on the right track, but the problem with this is that it's almost impossible to do that against a really good player for an entire match, which is why Marth's matchups that used to be considered freebies (Peach, Puff) are looking considerably less free nowadays.

So against Puff (for example), if Marth's grab game and his edge game (two of his staples for a good while now) are basically sealed because Puff is Puff, and he can't really combo her or get easy consistent kills because he always has to take some absurd risk to do so, and he can't really stop her from getting in sooner or later, what is he supposed to do? I'm focusing on Puff, but only because she's an easy example. Space animals have gotten way better at dealing with Marth's edge shenanigans over the years. With all that Mango has done it blows me away that people still say Falco's recovery is "bad," that he's "easy to gimp."

So basically, I think it would take somebody perfect enough, or maybe just patient/smart enough to actually zone their opponent completely for an entire match and do it consistently. I'm not even sure if I believe it's possible or not, because there will always be some situations where you pretty much just have to guess right, and there's no sure way to guess right every time just by the nature of the thing. Anyway, that's my two cents, I wrote this **** at like 7 in the morning so it's probably all ******** anyway, my apologies to anybody who actually took the time to read it.
 

ArcNatural

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As for the OP: I think Marth can become top tier again (whatever that means), but it would take some crazy brilliant player with an unusual or maybe just more fundamental style. I think what people have been saying about Marth just constantly forcing his opponent to make bad decisions and keeping them zoned (which to me means putting them in a position where you can hit them but they can't hit you, usually above you) is sort of on the right track, but the problem with this is that it's almost impossible to do that against a really good player for an entire match, which is why Marth's matchups that used to be considered freebies (Peach, Puff) are looking considerably less free nowadays.

So against Puff (for example), if Marth's grab game and his edge game (two of his staples for a good while now) are basically sealed because Puff is Puff, and he can't really combo her or get easy consistent kills because he always has to take some absurd risk to do so, and he can't really stop her from getting in sooner or later, what is he supposed to do? I'm focusing on Puff, but only because she's an easy example.
It's really ironic you say this as this is exactly what Dr. PP was talking about doing when he played HungryBox in Marth v Jiggs dittos. He grabbed a ton with JC grabs through conditioning/grabbing Hbox's shield (ie not landing lag or not shielded maneuvers like fsmash). Also dtilts, and old school wavedash to Fsmash/Ftilt spacing.
 

Ryucloud

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 18, 2008
Messages
266
Location
A Place Where *****s Are Real=Rhode Island BABY!!!
You guys know that marth agressive and offensive game exist right ??? Dont just limit marth to a "Zoning character or a character that forces opponents to make bad decisions yea you gonna get far by that stylye but there is a whole aspect of marth game that ppl ignoring . Thats why the Metagame all ****ed up..... Smh
 

Toya

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 15, 2009
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80
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Crystal Lake, IL.
Dart, the first step to Marth becoming top tier is you avoiding the use of Fox when you beat Kels with Marth game 1.

Just sayin'.
 

Bing

Smash Master
Joined
Nov 8, 2010
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St.Catharines, Ontario, Canada
Puff is not top tier, just the people who play well with him are smart... Marth is better then puff, It really does come down the skill level of the play to determine that...
 

Ryucloud

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Oct 18, 2008
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A Place Where *****s Are Real=Rhode Island BABY!!!
mew2king plays so safe now its frustrating to watch needs to be more confident with his character . but to be honest marth can out space puff and apply pressure from it so i just dont get why marths feel like they cant beat puff marth can keep him out with his sword so now its the game to get the grab wavedash foward tilt, jab, and downtilt leads up to grabs or you can just mindgame them into a grab just be smarter but eaither way your not getting hit if your patient
 

JBM falcon08

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 24, 2006
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glenwood iowa
Marth can't be top tier anymore.

His hardest matchups in the game are all the higher tiers Falcon, Sheik, Fox, Falco, and Jiggs. To be top tier you have to be better than those characters, and Marth isn't. He's right on par or loses those matchups so it doesn't fit the name.
 

safehaven

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Nov 7, 2010
Messages
479
do u know what character meta means

u are arguing that his meta cant change

because in this meta his matchups are considered even or bad

therefore he cant be top tier, implying his meta wont change

yeah cause marth already fully discovered, nothing new to try lets all play fox
 

Niko45

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 16, 2008
Messages
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Westchester, NY
Marth can't be top tier anymore.

His hardest matchups in the game are all the higher tiers Falcon, Sheik, Fox, Falco, and Jiggs. To be top tier you have to be better than those characters, and Marth isn't. He's right on par or loses those matchups so it doesn't fit the name.
Yea I agree completely.

Losing/Equal with all top tiers = very good high tier character
 

KirbyKaze

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Nov 18, 2007
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safehaven baffles me because sometimes he makes alright posts but other times he makes posts that make me scratch my head, wondering how someone could think that. Oh well.

I'm not sure what Marth has to do to be useable again, but I think avoiding attacking from air to ground is a good place to start. I'm usually happy when Marths jump around.

I think conditioning is also something that Marth can take advantage of a lot more than other characters simply because of how his moves work and his design...
 

Ryucloud

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 18, 2008
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266
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A Place Where *****s Are Real=Rhode Island BABY!!!
That's why I don't jump. I just down tilt and wavedash.
i need to try this out for my self lol

MArth has alot of strategy to him because he has to play differently in all of his matchups with the high tiers but i assume the only time marth jump around to approach is probably against sheik and falco but its a good Zoning approach m2k back in the day use to do that alot
 

HomeStylePie

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 23, 2011
Messages
40
I don't think safehaven is an idiot, he just gets way too defensive when he thinks he's losing an argument. His fallbacks when people disagree with him are "you didn't read my original post" and "everyone else is an idiot."

Character metas definitely change and it'd be misguided to say Marth can never be a top tier again. It's all a matter of which characters the up-and-comers like to play, and which of those players reach the top- Marth still has a lot of draw as a character. A lot of the most epic sets throughout history are Marth-Falco. Sets like BS-Ken and PP-M2K will always be the videos you show your casual playing buddy to get him to come to a smashfest.
 

Teczer0

Research Assistant
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So, we really don't need to go and flaming other people.

There is a report button if you have issues with people's post. And you can ignore people if you think they are posting to troll/spam.

This isn't directed at anyone in particular and I've sorta been busy/lazy. But yea, knock it off.
 

Pogogo

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 16, 2010
Messages
321
is it to late to say ofc mango just needs to work on his marth more?
 
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