Can Marth become top tier again?

[Kal]

Why do some people think Marth vs Sheik is even? Or even close? At it's very best for Marth, it's 40-60. I'll admit though that it's his only BAD matchup. But seriously, if you think it's even...play some better sheiks. It'll frustrate you to suicidal proportions. His only other sub .500 matchups are vs puff and falco, which I believe to be 45-55 so they're definitely winnable if you're the better player and know the matchup.

But to answer the question, there's really no way to tell if Marth will be top tier again. In 2009 we thought we had seen it all, and again in 2011 we have that same thought. If you read Kish's topic, you realize that all it takes is somebody to come along with the genius and work effort to revolutionize the character for us and show us something new.

I think most people agree that it's probably 6-4 or 55-45 in Sheik's favor when they say that it's almost even.

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

A lot of people see Marth as easy to play, but that's definitely not the case when it comes to playing him GOOD . Like CrimsonJelly said, it really helps to have that low tier mentality on, and being a person who plays low tiers myself, I can say that really helps out any character, except for maybe spacies and puff. Marth's edgegame is so great that it's like an automatic death to spacies once they get off the stage, and it's something that he should take advantage of, especially at lower percents.

 

[Kal]

I must admit, while I frequently advocate that Marth requires a certain finesse and effort that the remaining good characters do not, I've never seen it summarized so succinctly and well as "you must have the mentality of a low-tier."

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Yeah, the low tier thing has a second important caveat too: low tier players innovate.

They believe in their character so much (sometimes irrationally) that they go into training mode and try to find new **** that no one knows about. They study %s, situations, and edgeguards to a science and make their own gimmicky **** to trick people. This is the kind of practice that a Marth player constantly needs to do. We have to be continuously unsatisfied with how the Marth metagame is at the moment, and try to improve it.

Meanwhile, Foxes just brush up on their tech skill an hour before the tournament and Sheiks get some extra sleep and maybe a bagel for breakfast. lol

 

[Niko45]

Low tier mentality is definitely smart, but low tier mains tend to john a lot. Gotta be careful. Walk the line.

No excuses for losing. You know you can win, you know it's going to be hard, get it done.

Anyway I think a lot of people are confusing being viable with being a top tier. Marth has got a lot of work to do to re-establish himself as a top tier. Look how hesitant people were forever to give Jiggs top tier status. You couldn't dominate any harder than she did for 2+ years and it only moved her from 6th to 3rd.

From a tier perspective I agree with whoever said Marth will continue to trend downward. I think he will potentially be ranked below ICs eventually (by tournament results, he most certainly already is), but that's as far as he'll drop.

He's still completely capable of winning either way and that's all that really matters.

 

[Teczer0]

Meanwhile, Foxes just brush up on their tech skill an hour before the tournament and Sheiks get some extra sleep and maybe a bagel for breakfast. lol

I totally go ahead and eat a bagel before a tournament. :<

So mad

 

[Kal]

Low tier mentality is definitely smart, but low tier mains tend to john a lot. Gotta be careful. Walk the line.

No excuses for losing. You know you can win, you know it's going to be hard, get it done.

It was mentioned more as a way to improve skill. He wasn't saying that we should mimick the social behavior of low-tier mains.

I also disagree with the idea that low-tier mains tend to john. They don't make johns any more than anyone else, I think. The tendency for people to john seems more a character trait that arises from their personality (and in fact, the people who tend to john are the ones who tend to pick good characters only because they are good).

He's still completely capable of winning either way and that's all that really matters.

It's relevant, but that's not all that matters. This discussion is still worthwhile.

 

[ILM]

Marth does not have the raw potential that Fox and Falco have. He also doesn't have the stupid good range, high number of jumps, and ability to kill at most percents that Jiggs has, or the dumb combos and edgeguards that Sheik has. So, to be blunt, Marth will never be in the S Class again, imo.

However, in my opinion, Marth certainly has the potential to dominate the competitive scene again. I think it'll take a major overhaul of his game, however. The current Marth metagame, with its focus on 2007 era gimps and tricks, really doesn't cut it when Sheiks and Puffs and Spacies have stepped up their play to all new levels. We really need to cut out the gimmicks and try to formulate a playstyle that truly takes advantage of all the little things that are broken about Marth.

 

[-Sinister-]

Too many really bad matchups (1). Yes, 1 is too many for top tiers.

Too many even matchups or arguably slightly losing matchups.

Too many not free matchups (all of them among tourney viable characters all the way down to the mid tiers).

? sheik has bad mu's against puff, ic's and fox (not saying they're horrible, but just as bad as marth/sheik.)

 

[SnakeMan]

As someone stated earlier, unless there is some new ridiculous breakthrough in marths playstyle, I don't think he will ever be considered "top tier" again. With that said though, he def has all the tools to win tourneys, even with everyone else playing the "best" characters. If marth gets them off the edge, they shouldnt be coming back. In the middle of the stage, marth has superior range on everybody.
I wonder are marths not placing high or outright winning tourneys because he doesnt have what it takes, or because not enough people are playing him now?

 

[mers]

? sheik has bad mu's against puff, ic's and fox (not saying they're horrible, but just as bad as marth/sheik.)

Which is why Sheik probably shouldn't be top tier either.

My (admittedly very eccentric) tier list:

Top: Falco, Fox
Very High: Peach, Sheik, Falcon, Marth, Puff
High: Doc, Pika, Luigi, Samus, ICs, Ganon, Mario

Nobody else matters.

 

[JPOBS]

Too many really bad matchups (1). Yes, 1 is too many for top tiers.

Too many even matchups or arguably slightly losing matchups.

Too many not free matchups (all of them among tourney viable characters all the way down to the mid tiers).

To be fair, Falco has almost entirely even matchups throughout the entire cast (well atleast down to samus) and yet people consider him a powerhouse and top 2 char.

You don't need to dominate matchups to be a a top character, falco is an example of this.

 

[huMps]

Falco dominates everyone until he goes off the edge, and then he becomes **** tier.

I think marth can still win any size tournament. There are some really good up and coming marths out there and I think it's only a matter of time before more marths than just M2k's are placing well at nationals.

Although I do agree with Niko, it sucks having no really helpfull gimme match ups. And I don't think he should ever be top tier, I think high tier is an accurate placement.

 

[Niko45]

To be fair, Falco has almost entirely even matchups throughout the entire cast (well atleast down to samus) and yet people consider him a powerhouse and top 2 char.

You don't need to dominate matchups to be a a top character, falco is an example of this.

Excuse me, what?

 

[Archangel]

Which is why Sheik probably shouldn't be top tier either.

My (admittedly very eccentric) tier list:

Top: Falco, Fox
Very High: Peach, Sheik, Falcon, Marth, Puff
High: Doc, Pika, Luigi, Samus, ICs, Ganon, Mario

Nobody else matters.

TBH is almost identical to my personal list. I just have Puff on top but aside from that all the same.

 

[Tee ay eye]

agreed with kal and thecrimsonblur

sometimes i like to jokingly say that i'm a true arizonian because i main a low tier (marth)

 

[JPOBS]

Excuse me, what?

What matchups does falco dominate among characters that matter?

Fox, Marth, Sheik, Puff, are all almost indisputably even.
Peach might be barely falco advantage. PP will tell you falco loses against peach.
Many top players, including Hugs, say even samus is even.
In the top 10, Falco really only beats falcon and ganon.

Marth:
loses to sheik
even (or slight advantage*) with falcon, fox, falco, ganon*, puff, peach*, samus*

I left ics off of both lists because I'm not sure where the general consensus lies with ics. i think they both beat ics? maybe marth is even?

Feel free to express any differences you feel, but I think most people would agree that these are the general consensus regarding the matchups. maybe only slight variations (like 55-45 instead of even, some ppl think falcon > marth) some people might feel but overall I think this is pretty close.

Anyway, like I said, if I came in here saying "Falco is top 2 in the game" everyone would nod in agreement. But when you look at his matchups, he doesn't really win many of the important mathcups and yet people think he's a powerhouse. Although I will give it to you that he doesn't have a losing matchup like sheik>marth

 

[OverLord]

Falco isn't that great to lots of lower tiers too.

Sheik ***** 2/3 of the cast BAD, and loses to Puff and slightly to ICs. She goes mostly even against spacies and Peach, and wins slightly against Marth. Then she ***** Ganon, Falcon and Samus.

Falco goes mostly even against top 8, and good against lower tiers. Still, he's considered a better char overall. So it's not just a matter of match-ups, like JPOBS said.

 

[Niko45]

All Falco's "even" matchups are really "evenish" leaning towards Falco, and that goes for vs Marth too.

All of Marths even matchups are really leaning against him.

PP will tell you Falco loses to everyone.

 

[OverLord]

mmh.. in my view most of the "evenish" are leaning against Falco, so I guess we have to agree to disagree.

: /

 

[Dart!]

you play pal

 

[Niko45]

regardless of the debatable matchups, ****** falcon and going even with sheik is a big difference from going even with falcon and getting ***** by sheik.

 

[Beat!]

Marth vs Sheik can't be anywhere near Falco vs Falcon. That matchup is ridiculous.

 

[Dart!]

Marth vs Sheik can't be anywhere near Falco vs Falcon. That matchup is ridiculous.

falcon has hard punishes and tech chases that lead to pretty simple knees/kills
whereas marth has no guaranteed stuff.

 

[Kal]

You're oversimplifying the game greatly if you think that alone determines the matchups. And Marth does have plenty of guaranteed stuff against Sheik. It's absurd to say that Falcon does as well against Falco as Marth does against Sheik.

Also, if you're going to make judgments on character match-ups alone, you need to be careful. First, you should factor in every match-up, and not simply observe that Marth goes even with Falcon and loses slightly to Sheik, and that Falco ***** Falcon and goes even with Sheik, and conclude that Falco is better. A second, more difficult to address issue, is whether you should weight characters according to their popularity.

 

[Roneblaster]

I dont have anything that hasnt already been said about marth, so ill talk about other stuff.

Tier list:

Top tier:
Falco
Fox
Sheik
Puff

High tier:
Marth
Peach
Falcon

Doesnt matter after that. + its close and gets sticky between characters worse than falcon and bad chars.


From a pure theory bro standpoint marth should have a big "no johns" sign because he CAN be so ridiculously good. Probably never "top" tier again.

Of the characters i listed in my tier list the most difficult MU's are falcon vs falco, falcon vs fox, and sheik vs marth.

 

[Deleted member]

playing good marth is all about having guaranteed stuff.

 

[Dart!]

You're oversimplifying the game greatly if you think that alone determines the matchups. And Marth does have plenty of guaranteed stuff against Sheik. It's absurd to say that Falcon does as well against Falco as Marth does against Sheik.

Also, if you're going to make judgments on character match-ups alone, you need to be careful. First, you should factor in every match-up, and not simply observe that Marth goes even with Falcon and loses slightly to Sheik, and that Falco ***** Falcon and goes even with Sheik, and conclude that Falco is better. A second, more difficult to address issue, is whether you should weight characters according to their popularity.

falcon can outmaneuver falco easily. Marth cannot outmaneuver sheik. Falcon can dashdance CAMP. He's fast...unless i'm seeing things differently anyway.

 

[Roneblaster]

Falcon cannot dd camp Vs falco.
The reason falcon hates falco is because u cant move without getting hit. Play Dr. Pp with falcon instead of marth and see how well you move around.

 

[Beat!]

I'm not saying Falcon vs Falco is impossible for Falcon or anything, but it's still got to be worse than Marth vs Sheik by a pretty decent margin.

 

[Dart!]

Falcon cannot dd camp Vs falco.
The reason falcon hates falco is because u cant move without getting hit. Play Dr. Pp with falcon instead of marth and see how well you move around.

Done. i'll make sure to record it too. i'll specifically practice falcon for this matchup. i've seen plenty of falcons **** awesome falcos to know that the matchup has simple answers that denote to not ****ing up tech reads.

 

[Roneblaster]

i would enjoy seeing this.

be sure to DD camp alot.

 

[OverLord]

you play pal

Sheik, Marth and Fox are all MUCH more nerfed in PAL than Falco. So if I said that in my view "evenish" MUs are leaning against him, just think how would I think in a version where his "evenish" opponents are stronger.

Obviously I'm not syaing he loses, just that he has to know really well how to deal against them, and still play good to win. Falco is a great character but everyone knows how to exploit his weaknesses.



About Falcon vs PP: It's okay to be confident. But actually it's BIG deal to play Falcon against PP.

But if you feel so confident, let's just wait for the facts then, they speak much louder than words.

 

[Dart!]

Sheik, Marth and Fox are all MUCH more nerfed in PAL than Falco. So if I said that in my view "evenish" MUs are leaning against him, just think how would I think in a version where his "evenish" opponents are stronger.

Obviously I'm not syaing he loses, just that he has to know really well how to deal against them, and still play good to win. Falco is a great character but everyone knows how to exploit his weaknesses.



About Falcon vs PP: It's okay to be confident. But actually it's BIG deal to play Falcon against PP.

But if you feel so confident, let's just wait for the facts then, they speak much louder than words.

Well i like the matchup, that helps ME play personally. If i don't like the matchup it's really difficult for me. If i do bother to waste time hopefully i'll get results. But in the end will it be worth it? probably not.

 

[Linguini]

lol marth is a great character.....you're all basically attempting to john for the character. someone needs to step it up and utilize him at a top level( besides m2k).

btw I agree with everything reneblaster said

 

[Kal]

Falcon can outmaneuver Falco? Like the way his dash dance goes through lasers? Cut me a ****ing break. Falcon vs. Falco being terribly in Falco's favor is basically set in stone. Marth vs. Sheik being almost even is similarly, basically set in stone.

 

[Ripple]

Falco is a great character but everyone knows how to exploit his weaknesses.

Falco has weaknesses?

 

[Beat!]

lol marth is a great character.....you're all basically attempting to john for the character. someone needs to step it up and utilize him at a top level( besides m2k).

btw I agree with everything reneblaster said

PP's Marth is looking pretty dangerous. Maybe he can do it.

 

[huMps]

Can anyone DD through lasers? lol, no one maneuvers well vs falco. True Marth can move better than CF but it's still hard to maneuver.

 

[Roneblaster]

Falcos only weakness is his gimpability. He rapeeeeeeeeeeeees at everything else.

Hes kinda slow, but not really. Only compared to falcon and fox.

You can maybe kinda sorta out movement him on platforms, but it doesnt mean you can get it, it just means you maybe be able to move and breathe. A falco with a great laser game wont let u do platform movement either though.