D
Deleted member
Guest
beautiful play bobby. that might be the best i've ever seen from you, which says a lot.
-
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D
Deleted member
Guest
Wenbobular
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 26, 2006
- Messages
- 5,744
I was actually thinking about the first stock where Scar just doesn't edgehog haha
I guess the double jump was accidental <.<
I guess the double jump was accidental <.<
JonnyW
Smash Ace
He didn't grab the edge because edge hogging is gay in falcon dittos.
S l o X
Smash Champion
No it isn't. The only gay thing in falcon dittos is u-tilt.
Nakamaru
Smash Master
Just finished watching scar vs s2j. Damn does scar punish hard.
Year of the falcon indeed.
Edit: im an idiot. ^.^;
Year of the falcon indeed.
Edit: im an idiot. ^.^;
Tekk
Smash Lord
That set is basically a DBZ fight.
Scar with those goku combos, impressive stuff.
Scar with those goku combos, impressive stuff.
Niko45
Smash Master
scar is so siiiiiiick
Scar
#HarveyDent
@windrose the delayed aerials and slower approaches are definitely something that jeff does, so i totally see what you're saying. however i wouldn't say that i took it from him specifically, or that i studied his vids or anything. it'd be more accurate to say that i came to some of the same conclusions he did, albeit much, much later.
JPOBS
Smash Hero
so...how bout that discussion?
Nakamaru
Smash Master
Wait what? There is supposed to be a discussion here?
Nonsense.
Nonsense.
D
Deleted member
Guest
when the times right i will post
aka when laziness goes away
aka when laziness goes away
Jockmaster
Smash Ace
Hey s2j, I've been watching a few of your vids and I've noticed that when you're recovering, you'll use Falcon Dive (upB) really soon. Like almost immediately after the double jump. At first I didn't understand this at all, but is it so you can have more manueverability? Maybe to throw off the "from below" predictable edgeguard of falcon?
Wenbobular
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 26, 2006
- Messages
- 5,744
I think it's to stay out of easy edgeguarding range and also to put yourself in a better position to doublejump sweetspot the ledge
How high above the stage doesn't really matter as long as you can make it back using only your doublejump because that frees up options like DJ aerial to ward off overzealous edgeguarding and airdodge to be tricky
How high above the stage doesn't really matter as long as you can make it back using only your doublejump because that frees up options like DJ aerial to ward off overzealous edgeguarding and airdodge to be tricky
D
Deleted member
Guest
recoverying high is almost always better than low IMO
D
Deleted member
Guest
what i want to talk about is best timed with scar's lean guide IMO
=
not really laziness just don't think its the right time
=
not really laziness just don't think its the right time
Scar
#HarveyDent
TaFoKiNtS
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2005
- Messages
- 1,027
stabbedbyanipple
Smash Master
This is my favorite picture in the world
JonnyW
Smash Ace
Dont play sheik.
tarheeljks
Smash Lord
you played a lot more timidly during the last two stocks of match 1. didn't try to counterattack as much and reset even when he retreated, so he ran amok.
suicide game 2 was unlucky. looked like you panicked a bit when he grabbed/comboed you after you missed the edgeguard at 5:00-- don't remember seeing you jump out of shield at any other point. you broke free from the combo and even though you were backed up it wasn't a horrible position
overall, think you just lost your composure for spurts and johnny's punishes are so devastating that it cost you stocks, not just %. along those lines, you put him in a lot of bad situations too, but they didn't always end with him dying. you played really well though, margins are just stupid slim against someone of johnny's caliber
Wenbobular
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 26, 2006
- Messages
- 5,744
Do you get random urges to jump up at Falcon because I feel like it's almost always a bad idea haha sometimes I just wonder how you wind up getting hit by a Uair when you were standing on the ground last time I checked
Also hitting Falcon with a random laggy move when he's at like 10 is recipe for getting beat up (Nair OoS at low % sucks <_< Falcon just recovers first and hits you)
Also hitting Falcon with a random laggy move when he's at like 10 is recipe for getting beat up (Nair OoS at low % sucks <_< Falcon just recovers first and hits you)
Jockmaster
Smash Ace
Yeah I've been trying this a bit lately and it's actually helped. The guy I've been playing against is a Fox/Marth main, and a lot of times where I would've gone low (and gamble at being shinespiked/tipper pwned), I've instead gone high and it's increased my survival rate quite a bit.
D
Deleted member
Guest
Cactuar's Ruleset and Getting Better
tl;dr, cactuar's ruleset to me isn't good competitvely but its a great training ruleset that most people who care about getting better should use
Cactuar proposed a new competitive ruleset that he feels would be way better than our current one.
New ruleset aimed to address these points. THE PROBLEM OF 4 STOCKS (according to cactuar)
1) They further separate viable and non-viable characters.
2) They provide accident forgiveness for the stronger player.
3) They increase the importance of individual matches.
4) Individual matches take too long. (2-8 minutes)
5) Reduces combeback potential.
6) Reduces accessibility from other FGC players.
His reasons:
- Reduce the significance of individual match win importance.
- Reduce accident forgiveness.
- Increase comeback potential in a genuine manner rather than artificial. (x-factor >.>)
- Maintain consistency in set win outcome
- Increase the potential variety of skills, characters, strategies, and stages used in tournament settings.
- Make the game fast paced and fun again.
and the mechanisms:
Stock: Two
Timer: 3 Minutes
Recommended Tournament Set: Best of 7 at lowest level (up from Best of 3)
Stage List: TBD, but currently just the neutrals until we playtest. (But honestly, my stage list is every stage on except Big Blue and Brinstar Depths. Yes. I'm serious.)
# Bans per playeR: TBD
Items: You Wish (Still Off)
Feel free to correct me if any of the rules change
==
My belief is that Cactuar's Ruleset is not good for COMPETITIVE melee and here I shall explain why I hate or like each part of his ruleset
2 stocks: hurts melee in terms of epic matches IMO, it is very hard to get hype over matches that, due to 2 stocks, can last literally 30 seconds. More suicide kills also that even more quickly make 2 stock matches very very short.
No one will think PC Chris vs Ken on Mute city at MLG anaheim would be a memorable match if it was just 2 stocks. The back-and-forth nature of evenly matched players with 4 stocks was why it *****.
This is a similar tie-in, but 4 stocks I feel defined Melee. AND I definitely do not give a **** about the FGC and don't want Melee associated with a conglomerate group of mediocre **** tastic fighting games. This is just me though, and I understand if you want Melee to be associated with a utterly horrid community of sheep/ ******** people who like bad fighting games because maybe you want the sponsors or you want Melee to be recognized. Fair enough
My verdict on 2 stocks: i don't like it for COMPETITION
Timer: 3 minutes. I'm not sure how I feel about this. My matches with this ruleset are roughly 30 seconds- 1:30 at most. However, I do not play with chodsters who insist on camping for the win.
I can see it being a 'problem' especially if there are floaties/ homoe playstyle people involved, but will it be bad or good? Will it make 1 camper eventually approach or simply lose? Is it better for timeouts to happen in 3 minutes with 2 stocks or armada/hungrybox pushing the clock 8 minutes in grand finals in a nationals in front of thousands of viewers making Melee look like a completely horrible game?
Verdict: i'm iffy on the timer but with 2 stocks it normally should be ok unless there are some dbags playing
best of 7/ almost very stage usable: This is pretty interesting but I feel that even though the 2 stock rule aims to make low tiers more viable, it feels like opening every stage hurts them back
It is really interesting though and sounds like a lot of fun but that is probably because I am a falcon main and not a slower, mid-tier floaty or worse. Most of the stages taken away is because of fox, but then again, people nowadays are more equipped to deal with fox's infinite wall shine shenanigans or waveshines off-stage
Other problems: people who camp like *****s especially vs low tiers, absolutely dumb **** happening (flat zone --> 4 things falling from the sky hit you repeatedly killing you off the top from 0 -> 40%~ , pokefloats --> falling through seel)
I will admit that a lot of the hazards on the stage merely amplify you messing up, but I don't know how fine I am with that in a 2 stock setting. the Bo7 aspect might mediate that a bit but I personally don't like losing any matches in a bo7 to some n00b who I should crush because the stage ***** me. In our current ruleset, losing on Yoshi's because of the cloud is already pretty gay in itself (although I personally don't mind it that much).
Verdict: Not too good for competitive play
So, for competition's sake, I feel that it is really interesting but needs more tweaking. The current ruleset is fairly stagnant
===========
BUT I FEEL THAT (parts of) CACTUAR'S RULESET IS BY FAR THE BEST CURRENT TRAINING MODEL. WHY?
2 stocks: ability to remember more of the match, each mistake you make is more in your mind. You can readily see all the little things that mattered
So, easier to see/remember mistakes --> and try to fix them quickly in subsequent matches
Also, facing a n00b in a normal 4 stock match you can usually fart around and win. In a 2 stock match, you feel more tense in general because you can't be as lax and still win. In a 4 stock setting, you as the better player are more likely to have bad habits in certain spots but you simply DON'T CARE because your semi-sandbag mode will still win the match.
*See #2 in Cactuar's list of problems with the 4 stock ruleset*, it rings true to me.
Personally, just playing my n00b roommate for thirty 30second-45second matches, my edgeguarding has already improved just because I can see the situations easily in my head and work them out as I play. For my roommate himself, he sees that he recovers like a total idiot and improved as well.
It is also more entertaining to **** the **** out of someone in less than 30 seconds
3 minutes: time is irrelevant for me, but maybe its good TRAINING for others, not sure
stage list: I haven't tried it out yet but I already get good results just using our current stages. Perhaps it will train people to adapt better (?) but is that really even a good thing if we stick to the current stages we got? why not just get used to the 5~ stages we use?
===
So just from 2 stock perspective it is an extremely good training ruleset. I tried it and am completely sold. I feel like I am one of the most sloppiest players but I can more readily see my fatal flaws (EDGEGUARDING ) and fix it way easier
This is just my opinion, but I feel that it CAN succeed as a competitive ruleset as well if it had some tweaks. For now though, just using 2 stocks in practice is good
==
What do you falcon mains (and other dudes) think? I don't feel like reading through the 1000+ posts in the topic so I just wanted to know what you guys think here.
==
I'll analyze LEAN once Scar finishes talking about it
tl;dr, cactuar's ruleset to me isn't good competitvely but its a great training ruleset that most people who care about getting better should use
Cactuar proposed a new competitive ruleset that he feels would be way better than our current one.
New ruleset aimed to address these points. THE PROBLEM OF 4 STOCKS (according to cactuar)
1) They further separate viable and non-viable characters.
2) They provide accident forgiveness for the stronger player.
3) They increase the importance of individual matches.
4) Individual matches take too long. (2-8 minutes)
5) Reduces combeback potential.
6) Reduces accessibility from other FGC players.
His reasons:
- Reduce the significance of individual match win importance.
- Reduce accident forgiveness.
- Increase comeback potential in a genuine manner rather than artificial. (x-factor >.>)
- Maintain consistency in set win outcome
- Increase the potential variety of skills, characters, strategies, and stages used in tournament settings.
- Make the game fast paced and fun again.
and the mechanisms:
Stock: Two
Timer: 3 Minutes
Recommended Tournament Set: Best of 7 at lowest level (up from Best of 3)
Stage List: TBD, but currently just the neutrals until we playtest. (But honestly, my stage list is every stage on except Big Blue and Brinstar Depths. Yes. I'm serious.)
# Bans per playeR: TBD
Items: You Wish (Still Off)
Feel free to correct me if any of the rules change
==
My belief is that Cactuar's Ruleset is not good for COMPETITIVE melee and here I shall explain why I hate or like each part of his ruleset
2 stocks: hurts melee in terms of epic matches IMO, it is very hard to get hype over matches that, due to 2 stocks, can last literally 30 seconds. More suicide kills also that even more quickly make 2 stock matches very very short.
No one will think PC Chris vs Ken on Mute city at MLG anaheim would be a memorable match if it was just 2 stocks. The back-and-forth nature of evenly matched players with 4 stocks was why it *****.
This is a similar tie-in, but 4 stocks I feel defined Melee. AND I definitely do not give a **** about the FGC and don't want Melee associated with a conglomerate group of mediocre **** tastic fighting games. This is just me though, and I understand if you want Melee to be associated with a utterly horrid community of sheep/ ******** people who like bad fighting games because maybe you want the sponsors or you want Melee to be recognized. Fair enough
My verdict on 2 stocks: i don't like it for COMPETITION
Timer: 3 minutes. I'm not sure how I feel about this. My matches with this ruleset are roughly 30 seconds- 1:30 at most. However, I do not play with chodsters who insist on camping for the win.
I can see it being a 'problem' especially if there are floaties/ homoe playstyle people involved, but will it be bad or good? Will it make 1 camper eventually approach or simply lose? Is it better for timeouts to happen in 3 minutes with 2 stocks or armada/hungrybox pushing the clock 8 minutes in grand finals in a nationals in front of thousands of viewers making Melee look like a completely horrible game?
Verdict: i'm iffy on the timer but with 2 stocks it normally should be ok unless there are some dbags playing
best of 7/ almost very stage usable: This is pretty interesting but I feel that even though the 2 stock rule aims to make low tiers more viable, it feels like opening every stage hurts them back
It is really interesting though and sounds like a lot of fun but that is probably because I am a falcon main and not a slower, mid-tier floaty or worse. Most of the stages taken away is because of fox, but then again, people nowadays are more equipped to deal with fox's infinite wall shine shenanigans or waveshines off-stage
Other problems: people who camp like *****s especially vs low tiers, absolutely dumb **** happening (flat zone --> 4 things falling from the sky hit you repeatedly killing you off the top from 0 -> 40%~ , pokefloats --> falling through seel)
I will admit that a lot of the hazards on the stage merely amplify you messing up, but I don't know how fine I am with that in a 2 stock setting. the Bo7 aspect might mediate that a bit but I personally don't like losing any matches in a bo7 to some n00b who I should crush because the stage ***** me. In our current ruleset, losing on Yoshi's because of the cloud is already pretty gay in itself (although I personally don't mind it that much).
Verdict: Not too good for competitive play
So, for competition's sake, I feel that it is really interesting but needs more tweaking. The current ruleset is fairly stagnant
===========
BUT I FEEL THAT (parts of) CACTUAR'S RULESET IS BY FAR THE BEST CURRENT TRAINING MODEL. WHY?
2 stocks: ability to remember more of the match, each mistake you make is more in your mind. You can readily see all the little things that mattered
So, easier to see/remember mistakes --> and try to fix them quickly in subsequent matches
Also, facing a n00b in a normal 4 stock match you can usually fart around and win. In a 2 stock match, you feel more tense in general because you can't be as lax and still win. In a 4 stock setting, you as the better player are more likely to have bad habits in certain spots but you simply DON'T CARE because your semi-sandbag mode will still win the match.
*See #2 in Cactuar's list of problems with the 4 stock ruleset*, it rings true to me.
Personally, just playing my n00b roommate for thirty 30second-45second matches, my edgeguarding has already improved just because I can see the situations easily in my head and work them out as I play. For my roommate himself, he sees that he recovers like a total idiot and improved as well.
It is also more entertaining to **** the **** out of someone in less than 30 seconds
3 minutes: time is irrelevant for me, but maybe its good TRAINING for others, not sure
stage list: I haven't tried it out yet but I already get good results just using our current stages. Perhaps it will train people to adapt better (?) but is that really even a good thing if we stick to the current stages we got? why not just get used to the 5~ stages we use?
===
So just from 2 stock perspective it is an extremely good training ruleset. I tried it and am completely sold. I feel like I am one of the most sloppiest players but I can more readily see my fatal flaws (EDGEGUARDING ) and fix it way easier
This is just my opinion, but I feel that it CAN succeed as a competitive ruleset as well if it had some tweaks. For now though, just using 2 stocks in practice is good
==
What do you falcon mains (and other dudes) think? I don't feel like reading through the 1000+ posts in the topic so I just wanted to know what you guys think here.
==
I'll analyze LEAN once Scar finishes talking about it
Wenbobular
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 26, 2006
- Messages
- 5,744
Hyrule Temple is not a real stage
That's my impression of his ruleset <_<
I'm not sure what to think about it for training though, but that may be due to me usually using friendlies as a means to get better at something specific (getting used to ledgehop bair with control stick, ledgedashing, stuff like that)
I also personally find it already difficult to process how I'm getting hit while maintaining tech so I don't think shorter matches would be relevant because I don't think memory is the issue (more like, processing power)
Disclaimer - I haven't tried his ruleset yet so maybe it's super **** but these are just my initial thoughts
That's my impression of his ruleset <_<
I'm not sure what to think about it for training though, but that may be due to me usually using friendlies as a means to get better at something specific (getting used to ledgehop bair with control stick, ledgedashing, stuff like that)
I also personally find it already difficult to process how I'm getting hit while maintaining tech so I don't think shorter matches would be relevant because I don't think memory is the issue (more like, processing power)
Disclaimer - I haven't tried his ruleset yet so maybe it's super **** but these are just my initial thoughts
iRobinhoood
Smash Lord
I can't decide between using L or R for L canceling. Wow that sounded funny. I'm still in the early stages of advanced smash, but what would you guys suggest? I'm using R right now but I think L would levy some of the workload on the right side of the controller. Thoughts?
Wenbobular
Smash Hero
- Joined
- May 26, 2006
- Messages
- 5,744
Go with what's natural for you
My housemate Winston uses the control stick to jump and L for everything so all his right hand does is B moves and Cstick (and Nair I guess ~_~)
(I can't even tell you what I use without a controller haha ...)
Personally I use L to L cancel and shield and R for everything else
I think it's easier to wavedash OoS if you use different buttons for shielding and wavedashing but you can learn it even if you use the same button so just go with what's comfortable
There are times where you might have to learn a different button configuration to make things easier though
For example when I ledgehop Bair with Fox I had to relearn how to do it because using Y to ledgehop and control stick for Bair I couldn't DI back onto the stage well enough, so I learned how to ledgehop with control stick and Bair with Cstick
My housemate Winston uses the control stick to jump and L for everything so all his right hand does is B moves and Cstick (and Nair I guess ~_~)
(I can't even tell you what I use without a controller haha ...)
Personally I use L to L cancel and shield and R for everything else
I think it's easier to wavedash OoS if you use different buttons for shielding and wavedashing but you can learn it even if you use the same button so just go with what's comfortable
There are times where you might have to learn a different button configuration to make things easier though
For example when I ledgehop Bair with Fox I had to relearn how to do it because using Y to ledgehop and control stick for Bair I couldn't DI back onto the stage well enough, so I learned how to ledgehop with control stick and Bair with Cstick
FrootLoop
Smash Lord
Although I don't try it much, I actually like infinite stock infinite time for practicing. I stop looking at the number of stocks left and just play the situations. I found it much easier to identify similar/repeat situations and got a lot better at mixing them up. Also, There's no reason to do sandbag mode for 2 stocks because you're not keeping score. When we wanted to stop and test DI on falcos throws or something we just did it without wasting time restarting matches. It's a lot more condensed play than 2 stock where you're playing for 30 seconds then choosing character/stage for 10 seconds.
Fortress | Sveet
▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀▄▀
I agree with that frootloop. The only problem I have is when I play really boring players who I sandbag entirely against...
FrootLoop
Smash Lord
yeah I'm not sure how well it would work when the players aren't relatively close in skill level
Biglard
Smash Journeyman
Hey there.
In what situations do you decide to use uthrow instead of dthrow, and vice versa? I've never been really able to determine which one was more useful, especially against Fox/Falco/Falcon.
In what situations do you decide to use uthrow instead of dthrow, and vice versa? I've never been really able to determine which one was more useful, especially against Fox/Falco/Falcon.
shmeargle
Smash Apprentice
It's about percent man. Usually downthrow at lower percents and at higher uthrow. But you can always find something to do with either throw of you mix it up.
The problem I have with unlimited time limits is that there isn't reall any tension while you play. It's good if you just want to work on specific stuff. But if you're more pressured you have to think really fast to avoid certain situations. I feel you can try to apply certain things in certain desperate situations.
The problem I have with unlimited time limits is that there isn't reall any tension while you play. It's good if you just want to work on specific stuff. But if you're more pressured you have to think really fast to avoid certain situations. I feel you can try to apply certain things in certain desperate situations.
Biglard
Smash Journeyman
Thanks for the advice, I'll work on that.
Scar
#HarveyDent
my two cents on the ruleset, and johnny you actually have some great points in there:
2 stock does sound like it can be a sweet training regiment, and i see what you're saying about having it be stupid for tournament just because 4 stocks does allow for some truly epic moments and situations
as a compromise, why don't we play around with the timer? here's why:
sometimes vs tafokints especially, i'll be up on him a lot due to 3 quick falcon combos, and now i'm up like 3 stock to 1 and there's 6 minutes left. from my perspective, i can't camp him out for 6 minutes, that's so stupid and it would be tiresome for me. so for him, he just has to never approach ever again, and he has a huge advantage.
i think it would be awesome to see what a 6 minute timer would do for the game -- in a more sophisticated way, we could have a mulitplier to figure out the timer based on matchup.
fastfallers = 2
mid weight = 3
floaty = 4
so for 2 flaoties the timer is 8 minutes, for 2 fastfallers the timer is 4 minutes, and sheik vs falcon is 5 minutes. something like that.
i think there's actually a real problem with having a big lead and a lot of time left on the clock. camping is by far the best option, but it's tiresome and frustrating, especially for falcon, who has few moves that he can simply throw out safely
2 stock does sound like it can be a sweet training regiment, and i see what you're saying about having it be stupid for tournament just because 4 stocks does allow for some truly epic moments and situations
as a compromise, why don't we play around with the timer? here's why:
sometimes vs tafokints especially, i'll be up on him a lot due to 3 quick falcon combos, and now i'm up like 3 stock to 1 and there's 6 minutes left. from my perspective, i can't camp him out for 6 minutes, that's so stupid and it would be tiresome for me. so for him, he just has to never approach ever again, and he has a huge advantage.
i think it would be awesome to see what a 6 minute timer would do for the game -- in a more sophisticated way, we could have a mulitplier to figure out the timer based on matchup.
fastfallers = 2
mid weight = 3
floaty = 4
so for 2 flaoties the timer is 8 minutes, for 2 fastfallers the timer is 4 minutes, and sheik vs falcon is 5 minutes. something like that.
i think there's actually a real problem with having a big lead and a lot of time left on the clock. camping is by far the best option, but it's tiresome and frustrating, especially for falcon, who has few moves that he can simply throw out safely
Fortress | Sveet
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I kinda like the timer modification system, scar, but dynamic rules like that are strenuous on tournaments since it requires so much more knowledge from the players.
Ideally I think each character would have a timer modifier:
Fox- 2.5
Falco- 2
Sheik- 3
Puff- 4
Marth- 3
Peach- 4
Falcon- 2
ICs- 3.5
Ganon- 2.5
Doc- 3.5
Samus- 3.5
Ideally I think each character would have a timer modifier:
Fox- 2.5
Falco- 2
Sheik- 3
Puff- 4
Marth- 3
Peach- 4
Falcon- 2
ICs- 3.5
Ganon- 2.5
Doc- 3.5
Samus- 3.5