Building For Battle (Samus' Move Tier List & Discussion.)

[RaigothDagon]

Zair is the only aerial that anyone should even have considered S tier. This move alone could be S tier material among all characters. If there were any reason why it wouldn't be considered for S tier overall would be because it does 4% damage and doesn't deteriorate or refresh. This is of course under the assumption that you don't tip doing 7% with it.

This move is one of her best combo starters. Coming back to how it never deteriorates or refreshes, if you don't tip with it, knockback will be nearly the same at all percentages. That means a combo/chain that worked against a certain player/character will work at nearly all percentages. This is a move that allows a whole lot of creativity for Samus players, because just about anything can come out of this move when it is canceled on the ground. In fact, this move usually chains into itself in the air because the hitstun changes depending on if the opponent did something in between or not. Almost like a counter hit.

Some of the combos/chains I've seen are zair -> grab, uair -> zair, zair -> utilt, zair -> dtilt, zair -> ftilt, dthrow -> zair. It is a great damage racker and generally makes it safer to use other moves. It is also one of her kill moves. The tip of zair can kill MK at about 170% depending on what part of the stage you are on.

This is Samus' safest move. It has so much distance on other characters, it is ridiculous. It has so much priority, I don't think I have ever seen this move canceled out. I have only seen it interrupted. It makes such a good counter move, a move followup, combo starter, the versatility of this move is amazing. If it's usefulness for combat weren't enough, it also has awesome range for recovery as a tether.

Tether recoveries are amazingly safe too. While you can be hit out of a tether recovery before you snap to the ledge, once you grab the ledge you may do anything you want with zero lag. While invincibility doesn't last near as long, the usefulness of being able to do anything you want the instant you latch on is immeasurable. Recently discussed was the tether cancel, and such things as taking advantage of those invincibility frames to do other moves. Such things make Samus a beast on the ledge, and possibly is where Samus will progress in the future.

Gimping. This move is great off the stage, and because of Samus' great recovery, it allows her to punish characters that generally will go unpunished offstage. Adding in a great priority, this move is pretty unbeatable offstage. Pretty much the only option an enemy has offstage against Samus is to airdodge and come in at a safe angle. Most players get into the habit of DIing up because Samus has too many options to stop them from coming in below.

This move could possibly go in S+ considering how high other moves have rated so far, lol. But seriously, nothing below S.

 

[-Cross-]

There is too much to talk about when you talk about zair. Well basics, 7% tip, 4% everywhere else. Does NOT STALE so it will always do the same damage. Amazing range, although there are blind spots in there. Can be used out of air dodge which is a very nice ability, and allows for some immediate counterattacking abilities. Possibly the best tether grab range (not sure on this one, so somebody else confirm). Autocancels upon landing, so you have will always have 2 or 4 frames of landing lag (soft or hard landing), making it your best aerial if zair is considered as such.

This move combos into dash attack or dash grab (also jab and ftilt) at low %'s depending on where in your zair the opponent got hit. At higher %'s you could combo into charge shot or another zair. The long range zair is obviously used to keep your opponents out. Mixed with your camping game, you have the ability to cover and control an obscene amount of ground with this move. Abuse it. There is no way an opponent can punish this (Perfect Shield or not) if they are at a mid-long distance range. Now spamming it without reason will not get you wins, but just remember that this is the bread and butter of your camping game along with missiles.

SH immediate zair can be used to shut down opponents who have a tendency to try and jump over your projectiles, only use this when you anticipate the jump, because the opponent can just run up and punish you since Samus fall speed is slow. Otherwise you will mostly use zair as you are falling seeing as it is a lot safer because you will autocancel. SHFF zair is also possible, and it adds speed to your Samus. But it covers only mid range, and should be used to catch on coming opponents off guard, because they expect you to slow fall zair. There is also FH double zair, which can counter high up opponents, and usually you can catch them with the second zair if they don't have more than 2 jumps, even if you don't you are put into an advantageous position if they wasted their jump to get out.

You really can not go wrong with zair, just do not use it thoughtlessly.
I really do not know what tier to give this move
/sarcasm

Edit: Btw I was still writing my post when Raigoth posted, so if I repeated info sorry.
Anyway something in Raigoth's post:
The knockback tidbit is false. Knockback is not nearly the same at all %'s just because it does not stale/refresh. Not staling only means that the knockback will always increase at a consistent rate. So if you discover a combo, let's say zair>fully charged f-smash (this is fake btw) and it works at 90%. Then this combo will be guaranteed at 90% but not necessarily at higher or lower %'s. Just keep that in mind.

Also despite zair's priority can not beat out MK's nado head on. You can if you get the zair to travel above the hitboxes on the side and get the tip to hit MK in the middle, which is ridiculously difficult. I do not know what other moves can beat zair out, but usually zair will win. And something I forgot to mention, this move can be used to cancel out most projectiles (expect translucent ones) which can shut down a lot of campers.

Btw if you do not get what I am rating this move: S tier

 

[DelxDoom]

There are enough times where SH zair is a terribly stupid thing to do, so that's just when you have to be careful.

 

[-Cross-]

There are enough times where SH zair is a terribly stupid thing to do, so that's just when you have to be careful.

Yeah which is why I said, only use if you anticipate it. It really helps destroy campers, that jump while they do their projectiles. Ex) I was playing against a Mario, and I would punish his SH fireballs with SH zair. Destroying his camping game made him approach me and gave me the advantage throughout the whole match.

 

[RaigothDagon]

The knockback tidbit is false. Knockback is not nearly the same at all %'s just because it does not stale/refresh. Not staling only means that the knockback will always increase at a consistent rate. So if you discover a combo, let's say zair>fully charged f-smash (this is fake btw) and it works at 90%. Then this combo will be guaranteed at 90% but not necessarily at higher or lower %'s. Just keep that in mind.

Lol, it looks like I overlooked that. The part included was it never stales along with the knockback part. Didn't mean it that way, sorry for being confusing. I've got to learn to be more clear I guess. But since it doesn't stale, it won't make a difference in knockback like other moves however many times you use it. While other moves stale and have less damage and knockback, zair will never do this.

So to be super clear, zair will change in knockback ONLY from percentage, never from usage. In general this means that a move you use as a followup from zair will work in the same situation versus the same character because of it not staling and because it has low knockback. As I mentioned before, tipper zair has more knockback and can kill at higher percentages.

Also something I was looking at... our tier list is way high up and we have no F tier moves. I thought people were being too optimistic about things considering our character. But I have decided this tier list shows something else. Samus has very good moves. The problem is that not a whole lot of them work together, and she lacks one essential type of move....



A kill move...

 

[DelxDoom]

It will also change in knockback due to DI!

Like just about every other move!


and Cross, well, any time you use zair can be vulnerable since you have to be in the air, is my general gist.

There are just times that you will eat something if you try to zair.

 

[RaigothDagon]

It will also change in knockback due to DI!

Like just about every other move!


and Cross, well, any time you use zair can be vulnerable since you have to be in the air, is my general gist.

There are just times that you will eat something if you try to zair.

Wow, I don't want to proofread everything I do THAT much. Now you are just picking on me.

 

[DelxDoom]

Of course I am, but I use exclamation marks when I'm kidding around.

(Don't worry about it o_O)

 

[KillerJawz]

Definitely C Tier.

Unsuccessful troll is Unsuccessful D:

YOU LIE ISMAR D:

 

[Karcist]

This move is pretty mediocre/below average. It only does 4 damage so it isn't much of a threat. It's hit box isn't very big vertically and it can be power shielded easily so it isn't that good for approaches or spacing. It's predictable since every samus main spams it. Worst of all, it is really difficult to hit the shorter characters when they are on the ground. I guess this move is alright in conjunction with missiles, but that's about it.

 

[KillerJawz]

This move is pretty mediocre/below average. It only does 4 damage so it isn't much of a threat. It's hit box isn't very big vertically and it can be power shielded easily so it isn't that good for approaches or spacing. It's predictable since every samus main spams it. Worst of all, it is really difficult to hit the shorter characters when they are on the ground. I guess this move is alright in conjunction with missiles, but that's about it.

Please please PLEASE tell me this sarcasm!!!!

 

[-Cross-]

This move is pretty mediocre/below average. It only does 4 damage so it isn't much of a threat. It's hit box isn't very big vertically and it can be power shielded easily so it isn't that good for approaches or spacing. It's predictable since every samus main spams it. Worst of all, it is really difficult to hit the shorter characters when they are on the ground. I guess this move is alright in conjunction with missiles, but that's about it.

lolwut?

10lol's

 

[Ravin]

I heard Metaknight is pretty hard.

 

[LanceStern]

Oh gosh I don't even know where to start with Z-air and how much it rocks.

 

[Karcist]

Please please PLEASE tell me this sarcasm!!!!

Yeah it was just a joke, hahah. I didn't quite get the epic reaction I was hoping for though.

 

[KillerJawz]

Yeah it was just a joke, hahah. I didn't quite get the epic reaction I was hoping for though.

Oh okay, Sorry D:

@Ravin, naw we totally 100-0 him.

 

[-Cross-]

KJ are you still waiting for more input?

 

[Crystanium]

Z-air has excellent range, doesn't stale, does 4% (7%) damage. The downside is that it does not refresh any of Samus' attacks.

 

[Muz]

Here are some other useful tidbits
# -Airdodge an attack into a zair to counter is so key, especially against other projectiles, but also works well against melee attacks. Learning to do this against Falco's laser makes the match somewhat bearable.
# -When recovering, this same idea works, airdodge a gimp attempt, then zair quickly to the ledge to turn the gimping around.
# -zair when you are hit by moves that hit you horizontally is sweet, as you can often hit the person before their move finished. This is great against forward/down throws usually. Here it is important to practice zairing with Airdodge->Zair because sometimes if you just hit Z, then you'll airdodge only, which is pretty annoying.
# -short hop into an immediate zair works great against olimar, mario, pikachu, peach, toon link and link, who like to jump and shoot projectiles. It'll destroy the projectile and also hit them, forcing them to change their approach
# -zair is great at poking shields, especially on large characters. If you can get a person to shield a smash missile, then zairing their head even when they shield is almost gauranteed.
# -Also on large characters (rob, snake, ddd, ganon, samus etc) you can do a rising short hop zair and hit them while they are still on the ground, especially if they just finished certain attacks which make their hurtboxes larger.
# -Retethering. Basically after you grab the ledge, press back, then z twice to quickly regrab it and refresh invincibility. This is so important for gimping, and if timed right, you can even retether in the middle of multihit moves like link's upB
# -zair is great for gimping recovering opponents, and with the tip can kill them directly if they are far enough out.
# -Reverse shot hop zair to quickly grab the ledge, faster than speed hugging.
# -full hop to ff zair works surpringly well, as opponents think they can dash under you, but the ff speed will catch them off gaurd. for added security, di away while you ff.
# -Zair are a great mixup in full hop double missles, for the same reason, people think they can run under both missles, but mixing a zair will catch them.
# -charge shot cancel into zair is awesome. While you are charging, must opponents will try to jump at you. But you can cancel the charge with shield, immediately jump and zair and hit them quick.
# -zair is awesome when people try to counterpick stages like luigi's mansion, brinstar, and castle seige, because they think they can avoid your projectiles behind the pillars. well they are in for a big surprise, heh
# -One mindgame i like to throw out occasionally is that I'll run at an opponent, quickly turn around a jump, still moving towards them, airdodge through their grab attempt, then zair the back of their head.
# -falling zair into a quick short hop rising zair combo's well against peach especially, who likes to float after the first zair. Also works against people who DI up alot.
# -Against characters that can reflect projectiles, shoot a seeking missle, and as they reflect it, zair the missle and them together. That always makes me smile

*Some things to be careful about*
>One thing that Raigoth mentioned that I think deserves to be mentioned again is that you shouldn't overuse zair. Especially if a person is on a platform, alot of times an F-air/Up-Air is a better option simply because they do more damage, but also because you can juggle.
>Also mix up uncharged shots with zairs when a person is returning to throw off their airdodging, plus it has less lag.
>Oh and be careful when mashing z to get out of grabs that can kill, because it may cause you to zair upon release, extending your hurtbox, and causing you to die faster.

ooh I forgot to give it a tier rating, of course its 'S'

 

[KillerJawz]

Sorry about the lack of me being on guys, I just got back from a 5 day smashfest, if your interested I got:

2nd in low tier [Samus]
3rd in normal [Samus]
5th in melee [Marth]

I'll add that sexy writeup of yours to the OP Muz and probably fap about it ten times over.

Should we discuss her get up attack or go back to some of her less discussed moves?

 

[Karcist]

What low tier defeated you in low tiers KJ?

 

[KillerJawz]

What low tier defeated you in low tiers KJ?

Link. I did however 3-1 the Link in Winners Finals, loosing 3-0 in Grand Finals, dunno what happened :/ The matches of me v:

UK's best Link (3-1 and 0-3)
UK's best Ness (2-1)
UK's best Snake(2-3)
and UK's best Diddy (2-1) will be up soon

 

[KillerJawz]

Okay guys, we are going to do a rediscussion now, and I'd like to start things off with....

Forward Tilt

DISCUSS

 

[KillerJawz]

Guys you were the ones that wanted to rediscuss this move, so please, DISCUSS x.x. I'll add my information later on, Im gonna get some sleep first <3

 

[Noobicidal]

Well, ftilt can combo into itself at low percents on Ganon. I've taken entire stocks off on wifi from simply spacing properly with ftilt and playing patiently. I prefer throwing out random ftilts after jabs, and walking across stages and simply ftilt my way across.

This move is no less than A tier.

 

[KillerJawz]

Well, ftilt can combo into itself at low percents on Ganon. I've taken entire stocks off on wifi from simply spacing properly with ftilt and playing patiently. I prefer throwing out random ftilts after jabs, and walking across stages and simply ftilt my way across.

This move is no less than A tier.

Definatly a front page post.

 

[IsmaR]

Spell definitely right. >:L

With all the booming activity in this thread, I might as well get in on it now that I'm on spring break.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight after I finish getting my DM Jirachi.

 

[LanceStern]

Ftilt is a great move. I mentioned it before but it's probably one of the safest moves for us to space and punish with because
a) It has a the biggest horizontal range of any of her ground moves and comes out fast.
b) It has the least amount of cooldown after it comes out.

Because it reaches so far you can punish a good deal of moves and it resets your spacing. i like to use it to poke at people as well (kind of like Dedede's ftilt).

Then there's the option to tilt the ftilts. We learned a good amount of months ago that ftilt tilted down has a disjointed hitbox (extends her torso and shoulders a little upwards) so you can combo out of a ff uair. Ftilt tilted down also knocks the opponent off stage at an uncomfortable angle for them. You just trade a little range.

Tilting ftilt up is one of my favorites. It is EXCELLENT for anti-air tactics and keeping your opponents sh-aerials out of your face. I use it a lot against ness, lucas, even marth. You hit them once or twice with the move and they rethink coming in reckless. I love to combo ftilt after jab cancelling. Don't tilt it up on short people if they are on the ground, but if you predict they will sh aerial, they are finished.

PROS Summary:

Fitlt (neutral) - Most horizontal range of any samus ground move. Great spacing tool and cools down quickly. It's the safest drop-your-shield and punish move Samus has.
Ftilt (up) - Amazing anti air attack, especially if you predict their sh-aerials. Better to punish than utilt if you're not trying to KO them.


CONS: Only con I can think of is it has very low (to no) shield stun, and at low percents it has low hitback; That means if you space it wrong on shield or at low percents you will be punished by characters with faster/greater range than you, but not much.


Compared to her other moves, I would say it's an B+ to A move. Samus mains if on the ground should be using it... but we mostly spend our time short hopping.

 

[KillerJawz]

Spell definitely right. >:L

With all the booming activity in this thread, I might as well get in on it now that I'm on spring break.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight after I finish getting my DM Jirachi.

Die now.

Spoiler

Love you really

 

[Crystanium]

I love f-tilt, especially df-tilt. It has really good knock-back. I'd go with A for the tier list when it comes to this move.

 

[LanceStern]

It's great to have youback Dryn

 

[professor mgw]

~I give F-tilt a C+. The pros mentioned about this move are nice and all but in the end this move is outweighed by its cons. Low knockback allows some charcters to punish the move even after getting hit, Its a very easy move to perfect shield which puts you in a bad position for punishment. It has low priority and I find it a bad follow up move even with its low knockback, and its pretty hard to go hand to hand combat with samus in the first place :/

 

[KillerJawz]

This is why we only use ftilt around 30%, where its unpunishable. As discussed earlier, ftilt is a good option OoS, we're not just going to use it like its a drug (lolzair). It actually has decent priority, clanking with BOWSER'S ftilt. If angled down, it combos well, and setups us up for some gimps, search for some Quiksilver ftilt **** on YT.

 

[Muz]

+Angling the ftilt up OR down adds 3 percent to the damage (doing 10% instead of 7%).
+Although the regular ftilt is terrible at low percents (if you hit the opponent they can hit you back during your lag animation), BUT you can avoid this retaliation by either spacing yourself properly or by angling the attack as it will push them further away and with more stun.
+Ftilt works great against certain projectiles with little hit stun like falco's lasers, because you can take the hit then immediately ftilt retaliate before he finishes the attack animation. This is useful if you screw up a normal powershield approach.
+Angling the ftilt down can hit people who are holding the edge too long, sending them away at a much better angle than hitting them with dtilt or dsmash, and sets them up for some gimping.
+Angling the ftilt up can beat MK's tornado if timed properly.
+ftilt works well against people getting up from the edge because of its range and low cooldown. If they roll instead, you can usually follow with a downsmash to get them. And if they jump, do an upair/upB afterwards.
+You can "combo" an ftilt from many moves samus has (jab, fair, upair, dair, zair, dash attack, missile, bomb).
+If you bair someone's shield with the maximum distance possible, you can get a free ftilt when they whiff their grab attempt or when they drop their shield.

-Characters with long grab ranges (link, TL, olimar) can shield grab the ftilt even if you spaced it maximally.
-The unangled ftilt will sometimes completely miss characters near you if they are ducking (like kirby) or during certain parts of their attack animations which puts them low to the ground (like zelda's b-air)
-Its often easy for a good opponent to see a ftilt coming, and they will roll towards you and punish the lag, so you need to make sure you're not predictable.

B Tier