Building For Battle (Samus' Move Tier List & Discussion.)

[KillerJawz]

Wow out of everything this awesome move doves, I COMPLETELY forgot about it's momentum cancelling properities x.x. **** I feel stupid.

 

[NO-IDea]

U-air is awesome.

S Tier.

Because it can't be expressed any better.

 

[Mr9]

i agree with NO-IDea

S-tier all the way.

 

[LanceStern]

Theoritically, couldn't we use bair for momentum cancelling as well?

I remember reading somewhere it having the same cooldown as uair...

 

[DelxDoom]

Uair is great but it has bad horizontal range

That is my general idea of the move

 

[-Cross-]

It does include certain types of characters, like for example, when we discussed usmash, we discussed how well it did on heavies/tallies in comparison to smalls.

Raigoth is looking at the move in ALL character situations, so his post by far has made the most non bias approach.

Hold on now, Raigoth was asking about comparing uair to other character's uairs, not how well the move does in various situations against every character. I was simply answering that, so your correction was really random lol.

 

[RaigothDagon]

Well, since this thread was started I noticed moves getting higher ratings than normal, so I suspected as much that the moves discussed were only in relation to Samus and the situations she gets herself in. And sorry if I was a little unclear earlier, but Killer has it right, I am looking at uair from the perspective of how good it is in relation to all moves in general.

But if we were comparing to other characters uairs, then MK's of course would probably be first, followed closely by ZSS.

 

[KillerJawz]

Hold on now, Raigoth was asking about comparing uair to other character's uairs, not how well the move does in various situations against every character. I was simply answering that, so your correction was really random lol.

It can be compared in any way seen fit, if you had read the introduction to this thread, you would have known that.

Samus' uair, in comparison to lets say MK's, gets outclassed severly, I believe his has less cooldown then ours, has more range AND combos even better. This doesnt have to be taken into account, but it's going to stop you from overestimating a move that may get outclassed, like in the intro I said:

"What move beats what, like Marth's fair or MK's nado). So with dair, it's probably going to get ranked pretty high seeing as it is one of if not THE most effective dair in the entire game.

 

[Throwback]

I would have bet money samus' uair had more (vertical) range than MK's until you said otherwise. Cbf checking so I'll assume it's true

 

[KillerJawz]

I would have bet money samus' uair had more (vertical) range than MK's until you said otherwise. Cbf checking so I'll assume it's true

Oh sorry I meant horizontally

 

[-Cross-]

It can be compared in any way seen fit, if you had read the introduction to this thread, you would have known that.

Samus' uair, in comparison to lets say MK's, gets outclassed severly, I believe his has less cooldown then ours, has more range AND combos even better. This doesnt have to be taken into account, but it's going to stop you from overestimating a move that may get outclassed, like in the intro I said:

"What move beats what, like Marth's fair or MK's nado). So with dair, it's probably going to get ranked pretty high seeing as it is one of if not THE most effective dair in the entire game.

Now hold on, almost none of Samus' moves will be able to compete for best in the game other than zair I know that. I like uair don't get me wrong, but I can clearly tell that the likes of MK has a better one. Now regarding her dair, I do not really think Samus has a good case for one of the greatest dairs. Her dair is top 10 among other dairs but that's as far as she gets IMO. MK (of course) has a better dair due to his offstage game. Wario and Peach also have amazing dairs with good autocancel frames and combo ability. Fox has an amazing combo in his dair. Falco has a more effective dair due to his CG>dair spike combo, and you could make the same case for Marth (but not really) with his CG>dair combo. G&W and Lucario have dairs with amazing priority and quickness.

When compared to all these moves, I find it really hard to say that Samus' dair compares. We may all think its good because its a very effective tool that fits into her gameplay, but that's only because that's one of the main ways Samus has to kill. Her dair does not have great priority nor is it amazingly fast nor can it be an approach move. This move is only good because of Samus' low FF speed and her good vertical recovery that allows her to go down there and spike an opponent and still survive. Without it, her dair would not be something to write home about. Also it relies too much on her ability to bait the air dodge or cause bad situations with projectiles. While creating such situations is possible, the fact that dair has to rely so much on such a thing alone makes it a long shot from most effective dair in the game. Top 10 is great do not get me wrong but it is far from being the best.

tl;dr I know what you said in the OP KillerJawz I am just interpreting in relation to Samus's moves, I feel it's the only way to really do it, because even looking at dair which is definitely one of Samus' best moves compared to the rest of the cast, it is still not above the best. I am not here to start an argument, although I think it would be alright to know the criteria everybody else uses for their ratings of the moves

 

[KillerJawz]

Now hold on, almost none of Samus' moves will be able to compete for best in the game other than zair I know that. I like uair don't get me wrong, but I can clearly tell that the likes of MK has a better one.

Her uair and zair are both contenders for best aerials, CS and missles for best projectiles. MK has a better uair UNDER CERTAIN CONDITIONS.

Now regarding her dair, I do not really think Samus has a good case for one of the greatest dairs. Her dair is top 10 among other dairs but that's as far as she gets IMO. MK (of course) has a better dair due to his offstage game.

When I said dair, I should have been more specific, I meant meteor. No other characters dair aside from Falco can contend with ours in terms of overall meteor usage. All of the characters you listed have dairs that combo well or have priority, which I can see, but LOLNO Marth's dair is dreadful ASIDE from the CG. Falco's CG to Dair will honestly never work if you DI the spike towards the stage.

When compared to all these moves, I find it really hard to say that Samus' dair compares. We may all think its good because its a very effective tool that fits into her gameplay, but that's only because that's one of the main ways Samus has to kill. Her dair does not have great priority nor is it amazingly fast nor can it be an approach move.

Dair can be used to approach on characters with terrible upwards moves (MK comes to mind here, in case of GROUNDED up moves)

This move is only good because of Samus' low FF speed and her good vertical recovery that allows her to go down there and spike an opponent and still survive. Without it, her dair would not be something to write home about. Also it relies too much on her ability to bait the air dodge or cause bad situations with projectiles.

I think you mean her horizontal recovery, she has an ok vertical recovery, because she doesnt fall very fast, she is able to survive, it's really nothing to do with her vertical recovery, it's ok at best.

While creating such situations is possible, the fact that dair has to rely so much on such a thing alone makes it a long shot from most effective dair in the game. Top 10 is great do not get me wrong but it is far from being the best.

I know you mean for combo ability and all that, I mean for meteor/general, also I would like to add you can:

DI out of Peach's dair
DI out of Lucario's dair
DI the spike from Falco's dair to make sure it ALWAYS gets the side hits (thats also why ours is better for meteor, it will always send the opponent DOWNWARDS)
DI out of Wario's dair

I know what you said in the OP KillerJawz I am just interpreting in relation to Samus's moves, I feel it's the only way to really do it, because even looking at dair which is definitely one of Samus' best moves compared to the rest of the cast, it is still not above the best. I am not here to start an argument, although I think it would be alright to know the criteria everybody else uses for their ratings of the moves

It's an amazing dair, a little slow and a bit of ending lag I admit, and not the strongest, but it reads airdodges, recoveries and stalls like a *****. Agreed, it's not the best move in the world, but it is absolutly fantastic for meteor and comboing abilities.






Guys we are now discussing Forward Aerial, an AMAZING discussion for Upwards Aerial, very impressive, I'll get around to editing to OP in a few mins.

 

[DelxDoom]

broiler is hot

This move is seriously the move you should use more often but forget to

 

[RaigothDagon]

Fair is much like usmash? Underrated. I see people use zair over fair a lot. I on the other hand am opposite of that, so I know the effectiveness of fair. We have had a few discussions on the broiler too, and in those discussions I believe it is OVERrated.

First off, fair has good priority. It beats out quite a bit of moves, but may be unnoticed by many. The reason? Fair also extends Samus' hurtbox out with the attack, so a lot of times you get hit out. Examples of you getting beat out is by the fair of MK and Marth. I haven't had a chance to test it, but I bet that both attacks cancel eachother out.

Second, fair is a nice long attack. Being that way makes it good for punishing air dodges. Characters with very fast FF can bypass this since Samus is so floaty, but for other characters you can assume this is safe to use. Not many Samus players take advantage of its lengthy duration, which can be used similarly to Melee Jiggz WoP. This is one of the main tools Samus has in beating out characters trying to get their CGs for their main source of damage.

The damage is very desirable compared to zair, I believe fully refreshed the first hit does 5%, but I could be mistaken seeing how I have no way of checking right now. It is very easy at low percentages to followup on her uair. The reason this is so is because the first hitbox extends up, gradually falling down. This could be taken as a disadvantage however, because you can not start this hitbox close to the ground. Another reason why tiny characters have the advantage in this matchup. The last hitbox of fair extends under Samus, and can be used safely as a way of reaching the ground. However, with such a long wind up, it is very easy to see coming and countered.

A disadvantage, and a big one at that, is being a multi hit move allows it to be DIed out of. Characters can actually SDI up, or if your spacing is off in most cases they can DI up, and if they have a quick hitting aerial they can hit you out of it. However, having a great aerial mobility, Samus can keep this from happening. Once again, it comes down to how well you space with it.

This is a very good and safe move to use from the ledge. Once again the first hitbox extending upwards really helps. When retreated it is very hard to punish. I'm not sure which part of the attack has a particularly long hitstun, but using it to your advantage you can usually chain it into upB, jab, dsmash, or dtilt. It is one of the few ways I am able to hit people with an utilt.

This is a very good move for shield pressure. The shield gives Samus quite a bit of lag upon landing, so poor spacing gives the opponent the opportunity to grab her. However properly spacing this move allows the opportunity for her to shield poke the opponent. The hitbox is weird enough that you can do that, believe me.

Overall, a very useful move in the limited circumstances it should be used, but very useless when not properly used. I can't emphasize enough how important proper spacing is with this move. I give it a solid B.

 

[-Cross-]

Her uair and zair are both contenders for best aerials, CS and missles for best projectiles. MK has a better uair UNDER CERTAIN CONDITIONS.

What do you mean Certain Conditions? From my view: MK's uair is godly for ledge camping, it is the best juggle trap in the game because of its low landing lag and great range, and better combo ability than Samus' uair. Plus, Samus' uair can be DI'd out of, and while having combo ability is not as great as MK's. I do not see how MK's uair does not cover most of the situations a uair is expected to face.

but LOLNO Marth's dair is dreadful ASIDE from the CG. Falco's CG to Dair will honestly never work if you DI the spike towards the stage.

That's why I put (not really).
I had to defend myself there

Dair can be used to approach on characters with terrible upwards moves (MK comes to mind here, in case of GROUNDED up moves)

I do not understand this picture at all, why do I not see more Samus' approaching with it then? Also I do not think you accounted for MK's shuttle loop.

I think you mean her horizontal recovery, she has an ok vertical recovery, because she doesnt fall very fast, she is able to survive, it's really nothing to do with her vertical recovery, it's ok at best.

Samus' dair ability is dependent on her upB not her zair or psuedo-bomb recovery. I guess her vertical recovery isn't godly but it gets the job done which is what I meant. I mean I don't see Samus recovering with zair after spiking, do you?

I know you mean for combo ability and all that, I mean for meteor/general, also I would like to add you can:

DI out of Peach's dair
DI out of Lucario's dair
DI the spike from Falco's dair to make sure it ALWAYS gets the side hits (thats also why ours is better for meteor, it will always send the opponent DOWNWARDS)
DI out of Wario's dair

Number three does not make any sense, you can not DI a one-hit move to get a different hitbox. It's all really dependent on the Falco's timing for that small spike frame which is kind of tight.
Now I don't know about how well you can punish Peach and Lucario's dair after DI'ing, but I know that DI'ing Wario's dair is still pretty unpunishable, and can most of the time (not always) still combo regardless of whether they SDI'd their *** out of there. Also DI'ing out of Wario's dair becomes kind of like melee where people read DI, since his aerial movement is so good that he can just follow where you go and keep hitting you.

 

[KillerJawz]

By certain conditions, I mean ours has a better vertical hitbox and is a multihit move whilst his is a single horizontal slash.

We don't approach with it, because she isn't Ganon. She has far better options to approach.

Actually yes I do see Samus's recovering with zair AND bombs, oh and wall jumping aswell, mix it up a bit will you? I know what she can do with her recovery, and upb isn't always the best option.





You can DI a single move hitbox, it's actually called DI <.<...... Where on earth do you think the phrase comes from?

From example, If i was getting hit down onto fire, but there was a platform near the right of the fire, I would DI there. It's the same with Falco's spike, if you DI THE MOMENT the spike lands, you will land back on the stage, taking the damage from the spike, but not its full knockback.

DI up on Wario's dair and your unpunished. If there was more hitstun, Wario's dair would be far better.

I think you need to read up on DI, want me to get you some links?

 

[-Cross-]

By certain conditions, I mean ours has a better vertical hitbox and is a multihit move whilst his is a single horizontal slash.

We don't approach with it, because she isn't Ganon. She has far better options to approach.

Actually yes I do see Samus's recovering with zair AND bombs, oh and wall jumping aswell, mix it up a bit will you? I know what she can do with her recovery, and upb isn't always the best option.

You can DI a single move hitbox, it's actually called DI <.<...... Where on earth do you think the phrase comes from?

From example, If i was getting hit down onto fire, but there was a platform near the right of the fire, I would DI there. It's the same with Falco's spike, if you DI THE MOMENT the spike lands, you will land back on the stage, taking the damage from the spike, but not its full knockback.

DI up on Wario's dair and your unpunished. If there was more hitstun, Wario's dair would be far better.

I think you need to read up on DI, want me to get you some links?

The argument you said for Lucario, Peach and Wario's dairs are that they can be DI'd, I merely pointed out the same thing for Samus' uair. Also when did better range mean better move? Good range is great, but MK's uair is just better than Samus' uair. If you want I can list you the reasons.

So then why of all people are you saying you can approach with dair on MK? And if she has better options for approaching, then why do more Samus players not approach MK with their other aerials?

Ok hold on here. Let's say you FF dair spiked a person offstage, idk about you but 90% of the time the Samus will jump and screw attack to the ledge. I do not see any reason with wall jumping and zairing if you are that far below the stage. This is all I meant, I am not saying Samus vertical recovery>horizontal recovery, or saying that you never horizontally recover. I was just saying that her low FF speed along with a decent vertical recovery that lets her reach the edge after spiking below the stage makes her spike better than most characters because she can go very low and still get the spike.

Before you tell me what DI is listen to yourself:
"DI the spike from Falco's dair to make sure it ALWAYS gets the side hits (thats also why ours is better for meteor, it will always send the opponent DOWNWARDS)"

Either your wording was horrible and it caused this confusion or something else is wrong here. Now Falco's dair has two hitboxes, the first is the spike and the second one is weak and causes the opponent to go sideways. The way you worded the above statement makes it seem like you said, you get hit by the spike hitbox, you DI, and the trajectory is changed to that of the second hitbox. That just does not happen, DI is not some magic that changes a trajectory to that extent. What you are describing is SDI'ing the spike hitbox into the stage, you take full knockback, nothing changes, its just that you have landed back on the stage, and thus you do not go down into oblivion. The trajectory does not change, you would still go down had you not been near the stage.

Thanks for the tip on Wario I will use that more then.

And no I will not need a guide on DI.

 

[KillerJawz]

The argument you said for Lucario, Peach and Wario's dairs are that they can be DI'd, I merely pointed out the same thing for Samus' uair. Also when did better range mean better move? Good range is great, but MK's uair is just better than Samus' uair. If you want I can list you the reasons.

Good range is a major factor to a move being decent. For example, if Samus's ftilt had no range and did the same knockback it does now, it simply wouldn't send anybody anywhere and it would never hit. It would be useless, you NEED range to make MOST moves viable, TL is probably the only exception to this, even though he does have some disjoints.

So then why of all people are you saying you can approach with dair on MK? And if she has better options for approaching, then why do more Samus players not approach MK with their other aerials?

Im not saying you can, Im just saying it's a better option against him then say Peach, who will knock you straight away with utilt or even bait the dair and punish.

Ok hold on here. Let's say you FF dair spiked a person offstage, idk about you but 90% of the time the Samus will jump and screw attack to the ledge. I do not see any reason with wall jumping and zairing if you are that far below the stage.

To gimp in a smart way, you wouldn't let Samus go down to far on certain characters such as MK, Marth or anybody with a decent upb or loads of jumps, since they will either:

1) Make it back
2) Make it back and stage spike you
3) Set YOU up in a position to be gimped
4) Get gimped

Now don't get me wrong, you will be gimping these characters (all with the exception of MK) and it will happen more oftenly then not, but gimping from a higher angle is MUCH less predictable and far safer for Samus if they were to bait the dair.

This is all I meant, I am not saying Samus vertical recovery>horizontal recovery, or saying that you never horizontally recover. I was just saying that her low FF speed along with a decent vertical recovery that lets her reach the edge after spiking below the stage makes her spike better than most characters because she can go very low and still get the spike.

Oh yeah that's right definatly, she can do that, but obviously it will be baited by characters with decent vertical recoveries or have the ability to stall.

Before you tell me what DI is listen to yourself:
"DI the spike from Falco's dair to make sure it ALWAYS gets the side hits (thats also why ours is better for meteor, it will always send the opponent DOWNWARDS)"

Either your wording was horrible and it caused this confusion or something else is wrong here. Now Falco's dair has two hitboxes, the first is the spike and the second one is weak and causes the opponent to go sideways. The way you worded the above statement makes it seem like you said, you get hit by the spike hitbox, you DI, and the trajectory is changed to that of the second hitbox. That just does not happen, DI is not some magic that changes a trajectory to that extent. What you are describing is SDI'ing the spike hitbox into the stage, you take full knockback, nothing changes, its just that you have landed back on the stage, and thus you do not go down into oblivion. The trajectory does not change, you would still go down had you not been near the stage.

Yeah I did word that wrong, but you fully understood what I said, and you can change what hitbox your hit by, hence why a Falco has never, EVER spiked me. You can DI a single hitbox (SDI if you want to get specific) and CHANGE it's trajectory so that instead of being sent downwards, your sent diagonally, but you can also change the hitbox your being hit by. Both of falco's hitboxes are present at the same time, this therefore means that you can change the hitbox WHILE the attack has landed. Samus's hitbox however only sends the opponent in one single direction and it covers a curve, but always sends the opponent (IF NO DI IS INVOLVED) downwards.

Now with that hitbox, regardless of where it is hit will send the opponent downwards unless they DI towards the stage, in which case they live, that's what I was getting at, you can DI single hits, and SDI a hit where two hitboxes are present.

Thanks for the tip on Wario I will use that more then.

No problem.

And no I will not need a guide on DI.

Fixed. And I meant no offense to this, it's just you thought Wario's dair was amazing when it's seriously overrated.

 

[-Cross-]

Good range is a major factor to a move being decent. For example, if Samus's ftilt had no range and did the same knockback it does now, it simply wouldn't send anybody anywhere and it would never hit. It would be useless, you NEED range to make MOST moves viable, TL is probably the only exception to this, even though he does have some disjoints.

Good range is a necessary factor for a good move I am not denying that, but you can not say Samus' uair is better than MK's uair because her range is better. In fact that is the only thing going for her. MK's uair lacks Samus range but is faster on start up has the most ridiculous IASA frames, is 100% disjointed hitbox with good range, and thus is the BEST move hands down for juggling. Aside from that it is the best momentum canceling aerial in the game, because it is so quick. It combos better than Samus, ex) you can 0-death with MK's uair, you can not with Samus. Also it is much easier to create situations to use uair with MK than it is for Samus.

To gimp in a smart way, you wouldn't let Samus go down to far on certain characters such as MK, Marth or anybody with a decent upb or loads of jumps, since they will either:

1) Make it back
2) Make it back and stage spike you
3) Set YOU up in a position to be gimped
4) Get gimped

Now don't get me wrong, you will be gimping these characters (all with the exception of MK) and it will happen more oftenly then not, but gimping from a higher angle is MUCH less predictable and far safer for Samus if they were to bait the dair.

Well I guess this is just a matter of personal experience, I usually end up gimping opponents from below stage level because I have taken away their second jump and they can only aim for the edge. Let's just not address this point further, it really doesn't matter lol

Yeah I did word that wrong, but you fully understood what I said, and you can change what hitbox your hit by, hence why a Falco has never, EVER spiked me. You can DI a single hitbox (SDI if you want to get specific) and CHANGE it's trajectory so that instead of being sent downwards, your sent diagonally, but you can also change the hitbox your being hit by. Both of falco's hitboxes are present at the same time, this therefore means that you can change the hitbox WHILE the attack has landed. Samus's hitbox however only sends the opponent in one single direction and it covers a curve, but always sends the opponent (IF NO DI IS INVOLVED) downwards.

Now with that hitbox, regardless of where it is hit will send the opponent downwards unless they DI towards the stage, in which case they live, that's what I was getting at, you can DI single hits, and SDI a hit where two hitboxes are present.

I agree with everything you said here, except I can not believe the part about changing hitboxes. This is the first that I have heard such a thing honestly, so I am skeptical but I will not argue it.

Fixed. And I meant no offense to this, it's just you thought Wario's dair was amazing when it's seriously overrated.

Nah its not that overrated, its still an amazing dair. IMO its because of the shield degrading abilities combined with his great aerial movement. Combo ability is just an extra bonus.

Btw Samus' fair is a pretty cool move

 

[KillerJawz]

Good range is a necessary factor for a good move I am not denying that, but you can not say Samus' uair is better than MK's uair because her range is better. In fact that is the only thing going for her. MK's uair lacks Samus range but is faster on start up has the most ridiculous IASA frames, is 100% disjointed hitbox with good range, and thus is the BEST move hands down for juggling. Aside from that it is the best momentum canceling aerial in the game, because it is so quick. It combos better than Samus, ex) you can 0-death with MK's uair, you can not with Samus. Also it is much easier to create situations to use uair with MK than it is for Samus.

That is true, however, you cannot 0-death with MK's Uair, it is avoidable. His Uair is disgusting agreed, and im not saying Samus's is better, I will however say that Samus can do things with her uair that MK just can't. At higher %s, his uair loses its touch, while Samus's, as long as the final hit doesnt connect, remains a combo monster.

Well I guess this is just a matter of personal experience, I usually end up gimping opponents from below stage level because I have taken away their second jump and they can only aim for the edge. Let's just not address this point further, it really doesn't matter lol

Yeah it is a matter of personal experience I guess.

I agree with everything you said here, except I can not believe the part about changing hitboxes. This is the first that I have heard such a thing honestly, so I am skeptical but I will not argue it.

Well it's the truth, and it's the reason Falco has never been able to land a spike on me, I don't know if it's floaty specific or anything like that, I just know that I can DI his spike so that the 2nd hit variation lands, I cannot however change it with Ness so Im guessing it's just something to do with Falco.

Nah its not that overrated, its still an amazing dair. IMO its because of the shield degrading abilities combined with his great aerial movement. Combo ability is just an extra bonus.

When the metagame was first introduced, we believed that Zelda's smashes were monstrous, but we slowly became aware we could DI out of them, this is the case with Wario's dair. If you had said it's an amazing dair last generation, I wouldn't have disagreed, but now that you can just DI out of it before he can do anything just really takes away everything good about it, this is actually what prevented me from putting Samus's uair in S Tier (It did get in, but thats because nearly everyone else voted for it to be there). Im not saying it's a bad move, it's just not amazing.

Btw Samus' fair is a pretty cool move

Indeed it is.

 

[-Cross-]

Fair is a good anti-air option, if you read an opponent correctly, Full hop fair is better than SH fair as anti-air. What's nice about FH fair is if you hit an opponent with it, you can shoot a homing missile or zair while falling down and immediately cancel it for another followup and thus more pressure.

The downfall of this move is not simply the fact that it can be SDI'd out of, but that it can be SDI'd rather easily. Some moves are difficult to SDI out of, but fair isn't the hardest thing for an opponent to DI out of. Of course this is dependent on character size, but combined with the ending frames for this move, its also simple for an opponent to punish her.

Aside from this fact, fair is nice for maintaining walls, as mentioned by Raigoth, (FH and FF fair at the peak of your jump to see how nice of a wall that looks like) and if you land one of the hits that have little knockback at higher %'s you can combo into dtilt/ or my personal favorite tilted ftilt and your other quick options. Also using this to recover from the edge is nice, but it is much safer to ledge drop and second jump fair then start moving back as the fair hitboxes progress for a good gtfo from the edge tactic. Also use this in conjunction with uair platform pressure.

I do not use fair much, but its a nice move, I give it low B tier/high C tier.

 

[RaigothDagon]

I didn't even think of using it in conjunction with downward ftilt. I don't know if that would extend your hurtbox out too far though. I mean, spacing fair properly is almost close enough for MK to dash grab you out of shield if not close enough. But it would be more unexpected than dtilt because all they would have to do is wait for you to do that then walk up and grab.

Also, I forgot that. If an opponent is on a platform and you hit them with part of fair, the hitstun lasts long enough and pops them up enough that you can combo into other attacks like upair or upb. I'd have to test this out, but it may be guaranteed if you hit them while doing this. It could also be character/stage dependent, but I know I have chained these attacks quite a bit of the time.

 

[-Cross-]

Yeah I got the idea of using tilted ftilts when I accidentally did tilted up ftilt and combo'd it from a fair on an opponent after second jumping back from the edge. So then I was like why not replace dtilt in the single hit fair>dtilt comb? It's safer in terms of ending lag if I screw up.

Regarding your combo idea, a really cool setup for it is SH uair and if you were quick enough the fair comes out and you get a single flame. It's high up but it is perfect for platform pressure, and I believe has the chance for shield poking which would lead to more uair <3.

 

[DelxDoom]

First hit of fair is lol

I actually was thinking about that

but fair's landing lag is more than some of her other aerials

 

[RaigothDagon]

Less than dair, the same as zair, more than uair. Weird that a move that puts her UPSIDE DOWN would have less lag than a move where her arm moves into an upright position, but oh well, it works.

 

[KillerJawz]

Thanks for the input guys, nice to see your all getting involved <3.

We are now discussing Downwards Aerial, one of Samus' most well known gimping tools.

 

[DelxDoom]

How dair youuuu

Dair is a good move. To be a good Samus player, you must start by being familiar with what you can do with the dair.

The easiest way to gimp/spike people with this would be to dair where they will go with their up b (if they're not gonna snap to ledge).

What's cool about this move is that if it connects on grounded opponents it has a little bit more hitstun than normal moves (including upon having upwards knockback, not just the grounded spinny animation). This allows for a few limited "true combos". Up B is probably the easiest, but you can do a fully charged shot at some percentages and random crap.

Good move. It's especially nice because of the low landing lag, a lot less than a WHOLE LOT of the cast's dairs

 

[Smash G 0 D]

Incredible. At 0 you can Dair a standing opponent into F/Dsmash. Because Samus has trouble killing, we'd be nowhere without this move.

 

[Dabuz]

shorthop dairs on grounded people are relatively safe ways to pressure and condition as long as it isn't overused

 

[-Cross-]

Her best kill move lol. Always look for ways to set up a dair spike. It is the quickest way to kill for Samus. Without she would be absolutely screwed when it comes to killing because she would never kill below 100% (aside from charge shot). Dunno there is not much to say about this move besides the fact that it combos at low %'s for some pretty good damage and it spikes for the kill. I guess it would be better to mention some setups offstage.

Personally I find SH homing missile to run off stage homing missile to be a good option. You have enough time to double jump and spike if the second homing missile lands. Actually this is crazy, there are too many situational setups to get a favorable position for dair'ing, that and conditioning helps this a lot. Just remember your goal is to either bait a punishable air dodge, or make an opponent waste or hit them out of their second jump. Charge shot (charged or uncharged), both types of missile cancels, and zairs are the most common ways to set that up (not limited to these moves though)

Strange nobody has given a rating yet. I would say its definitely A tier because of its potential to get quick kills, but its harder to land this move the smarter your opponent is. Basically its an option your opponent always looks out for, and thus makes it a move that can not land unless its practically unavoidable or you made a **** good read. Payoff is great and you could make a case for S tier but I would stick this under Charge Shot which has more versatility and more combo potential.

 

[RaigothDagon]

Not her best kill move lol. This is her EARILIEST kill move indeed, because if you have someone idiotic enough to land it on while they are offstage, it kills at ridiculously low percentages. If you play smart and always keep the opponent guessing, you could get this kill move on them. Or you could play wifail and land it nearly all the time.

Definitely one of the moves that Samus players will want to get the spacing right on. I left dair for fair because of it being less punishable, but I see that both are useful, and dair pays off more. 13% fresh is it? I will definitely practice proper spacing with this move and implementing it into my game when I get the chance again.

Surely a good move for combo setups. As was mentioned, dair -> upb, another popular one that pretty much everyone uses is on a grounded dair -> bair. Great kill setup, but only if the dair doesn't pop them too high or they airdodge because everyone overuses it... I seem to recall a certain aerial that chains from dair as well. Maybe uair or fair? Maybe even another dair. I think that one is possible on certain characters at around 30%. Could be thinking of Melee or N64 Samus though.

Another great low percentage link is dair -> utilt. One of the few ways I can actually pull that move out (other than using near the ledge or under platforms). Another great thing is if the opponent isn't popped up enough to do an action but doesn't have enough stun. This could lead to great tech chasing. If they didn't tech, you could always stand around and wait to punish them with a grab.

Here's something that hasn't been brought up. Jab locks anyone? An unteched dair = possibility for a jab lock. A great setup for it that I've seen is super missle -> dair -> jab lock. Or at low enough percentages that it pops them up only slightly and they don't tech, you can jab lock after that. Of course this is all much harder in application, but if you can pull it off consistently in matches then good for you.

Overall, this is a very sexy move that Samus has in her arsenal. Getting to use it in a match, that is the hard part. Unless you can figure out how to properly space this move, you will get punished everytime. This move is soooo easy to see coming, most opponents will be able to react as soon as you start it. Certain small characters can punish you for using this move even if it is properly spaced, so be careful who you try it against. I know the small characters are when this move is attempted the most.

Great move, hard application. It is about equivalent to her bair in application to a match, but as much profit as uair if it works. I give it a B.

 

[Karcist]

One of my favorite things about this is to dair on stage and forward smash. This allows for early kills besides the spike. Morph ball bombs and missiles can lead into spikes easily as well if you take advantage of the hitstun right. I wouldn't say this is her best kill MOVE but one of her best SETUPS.

A tier, below charge shot.

 

[-Cross-]

Not her best kill move lol.

I see what you did there.

Yeah thanks for the correction, I guess that's what I meant. And I forgot about the jab lock setup, which is pretty sexy. Why do you rate it B tier? Or more specifically is this high B tier or low B tier?

@Karcist I'm not understanding what you're saying about dair>forward smash landing early kills. Dair would have too much knockback by the time f-smash can kill for you to combo with it. And how is dair a setup? I did forget to mention morph ball setups, which are pretty cool when you pull it off.

 

[Karcist]

I see what you did there.

Yeah thanks for the correction, I guess that's what I meant. And I forgot about the jab lock setup, which is pretty sexy. Why do you rate it B tier? Or more specifically is this high B tier or low B tier?

@Karcist I'm not understanding what you're saying about dair>forward smash landing early kills. Dair would have too much knockback by the time f-smash can kill for you to combo with it. And how is dair a setup? I did forget to mention morph ball setups, which are pretty cool when you pull it off.

Tech chase. Try to predict the roll (or get up attack) and forward smash to their reaction, it works better than it sounds.

 

[RaigothDagon]

Why do you rate it B tier? Or more specifically is this high B tier or low B tier?

I rated it B tier because it is an A tier move with C or D tier practicality. A good player will avoid this move 80% of the time, so it is a really unreliable move to count on hitting. Most of the time this move leads to punishment. But like I said, it is character specific, it's just most characters can punish it even when it is spaced good enough.

 

[DelxDoom]

I think it's still too slow

This was me on bair.

I have changed my mind - I still think it comes out too late to be super cookies but overall it takes a small amount of frames.

 

[Karcist]

Off topic but I find bair hard to hit with because Samus is too floaty and slow moving in the air for it not to be predictable, not because it comes out slowly.

 

[KillerJawz]

Okay guys, thanks for the contributions, we are now discussing the aerial that makes Samus something above useless, an aerial which EVERYBODY fears. Ladies and Gentlemen, I am proud to say we are discussing Z-air.

I think we ALL know what tier this SHOULD be in.

 

[IsmaR]

Okay guys, thanks for the contributions, we are now discussing the aerial that makes Samus something above useless, an aerial which EVERYBODY fears. IsmaR and Gentlemen, I am proud to say we are discussing Z-air.

I think we ALL know what tier this SHOULD be in.

Definitely C Tier.

 

[DelxDoom]

Z tier

lol

I'll let some other people explain how it's one of the best moves in the game.

However, just note that any tether recovery has less lag upon grabbing the edge than say grabbing it normally or with a nontether up b.

This allows Samus players to do faster stuff from the ledge if they grab the edge with zair.