Building For Battle (Samus' Move Tier List & Discussion.)

[NO-IDea]

lol, I guess it's too late to reveal my secrets of D-smash...

N-air:

What a ****ing cool move. I mean, let's face it, it's one of the few moves where nearly her entire body is the hitbox. Does measly damage and knockback, but because it comes our fairly fast and chains to many aerials after a short hop, it's great to pull out as a surprise attack.

Uses? Comboing of course, as the strong hit of n-air at weak percents can lead to dash attacks and dash grabs. The weak hit at higher percents result in the same follow-ups. It's also decent combo breaker in certain MUs a decent mind game when getting juggled.*

*By mind game, I refer to the options characters have when put above their opponent. Samus in particular has double jump, air dodge, retreating z-air, bombs, and n-air. N-air should be least used since it's easily punished by shield dash approach or beat by disjointed hitboxes, but it still qualifies in those MUs (Marth and MK in particular.)*

OoS n-air is a good punisher, although it's absurdly hard to follow-up on. Invincible n-air is decent, although superseded by u-air/f-air if you're trying for off-ledge combat. And finally, it's great for gimping, but only if you absolutely need to pull out a hitbox. Otherwise, it's better to bait/stall and just attempt the d-air.

Final Judgment: C Tier

 

[DelxDoom]

nair, especially weak nair, has such terrible knockback that it's actually good for edgeguarding, think Marth's side b gimps on fast fallies in Melee.

That is its best use.

You can use it to chain attacks since it has low landing lag but they're almost never true combos.

This is an ok use.

It will get punished on shield a wholeeeeee lot and can even get punished out of hit.

That is its worst use.

 

[Karcist]

As much as I love this move I think it's fairly average. It can start combos and sometimes be used for gimping, but has little knock back and isn't good if it's used often (gets predictable).

Bottom of the C tier.

 

[-Cross-]

I like this option OoS while charging charge shot. The safest and quickest forward attack from that position. I like this after SH uair>FF nair on shield. I only do the nair if I end up behind the opponent though, if I land in front, it's an auto shield grab. Gimping has been mentioned but since its faster than dair I like it just as much. Nair works just as well as dair in terms of gimping against anybody without a good recovery. Good combo breaker move also.

I put this in C tier. I don't like how C tier is so crowded though. People were too conservative in their decisions. Need more D tier moves.

 

[Smash G 0 D]

So many sexy gimps under stages and into corners with this move xD

It's not all that useful besides it's gimp uses and situational combos, but it still gets hearts from me.

 

[IsmaR]

Close this before my word and I will find you, KJ. Busy atm/will take me a while to post my thoughts/placeholderpost.

 

[KillerJawz]

Close this before my word and I will find you, KJ. Busy atm/will take me a while to post my thoughts/placeholderpost.

Yeah I've been doing alot of other stuff atm, mainly playing Phantom Hourglass and Partners in Time so I didn't have time to do update it, I'll move on when you give your input, which im sure will be sexy since this is like YOUR aerial.

 

[KillerJawz]

Okay guys. Thanks for your input, IsmaR I have reserved a spot for you to give your input for neutral air, don't worry :3.

We are now discussing Back Aerial


Also @ -Cross- She has moves in C tier because they are C tier material. They're not bad enough for D, and not good enough for B


Also guys im thinking about an early comeback discussion for the following moves:

Forward tilt
Down tilt

If you guys feel we should, leave a comment about it (along with some freaking input)

Now DISCUSS DISCUSS DISCUSS

 

[MechWarriorNY]

Back Air, huh?

Well.

In my opinion, both hitboxes(weaker knockback/strong knockback)
are worth using a lot at high damage, e.g. 90+%, or lower.
Strong hitbox

Without good DI,
if you hit someone with like, 100%, with the strong Bair, and they don't DI
up to the corner, they might get K.O.ed, which is very good, considering
this is Samus.
Use this A LOT around the 80-140% range. Also, retreating OR approaching Bairs
are good, if you play that way with Samus.

Weak hitbox
This one can actually set up combos, or is a good combo ender.
E.g. Dair(medium damage, like 70-80)>Bair is excellent.

However, Bair can be punished if it's SHed, as in people who shield dash>anything,
but I found you can SHBair>Nair just before landing, so that helps.

I like this move, so I might be biased.

I would give it a rank of High C tier-Low B tier.

 

[-Cross-]

Okay guys. Thanks for your input, IsmaR I have reserved a spot for you to give your input for neutral air, don't worry :3.

We are now discussing Back Aerial


Also @ -Cross- She has moves in C tier because they are C tier material. They're not bad enough for D, and not good enough for B

Well C tier is very crowded but I feel this is because the separate grab throws are treated as separate moves. It is logically to say they are but I feel the tier list should only need to discuss grab and then the throws can have a separate tier list. Back and forward throw may be good gtfo moves and may lead to a bit more damage after, but in terms of the risks needed to grab the opponent vs the speed, risk and damage of jab and d-smash make me feel that grabbing should be below those moves.

Basically everybody discussed the various throws with the assumption that the opponent had already been grabbed, but since all moves should be taken from the same position; the risk needed to land that grab was not taken into account for each of these moves move, especially considering this is Samus I feel that all the throws would go down in their tier because of this fact. To solve this problem either treat grab as one move and have a separate tier list regarding the grabs or consider the risk of landing the grab along with its function. (I like the second option btw, having 2 tier lists would be a hassle)

I know it has been said to not argue placings and things, but nobody really posts anymore so additional discussion would not be that much spam/condense the thread.

 

[KillerJawz]

Well firstly, this is a thread to discuss her moves, this includes her ENTIRE moveset, from jab to the ledge attack, they are all moves she can perform, regardless of usefulness.

Secondly, that's just your opinion. This is a group discussion, so regardless of weather or not you feel a move is good, your only one person out of like 3 or 4. The risk taken to grab was taken into account in every throw. But there are set ups for these things, a typical one, Zair to grab.

 

[-Cross-]

your only one person out of like 3 or 4.

This made me lol. But yeah I see, I just wasn't sure that it was taken into account. But if it was then I guess it doesn't matter.

 

[DelxDoom]

bair is really slow

i dunno how you guys are supposed to hit this consistently lol

 

[RaigothDagon]

You aren't, it's just when it does, it's pretty tasty.

 

[KillerJawz]

I hit bair really frequently tbh. Space it well and you remain unpunished. Fall off bair is a god send aswell. Bair is seriously underrated. Im probably going to give a full writeup of this when I get back from my tourny (starts in like 2 hours).

Wish me luck <3

 

[DelxDoom]

Bair can be hard to punish but it's just not suitable to use it all the time.

It is tasty on hit though.

It has the unfortunate properties of coming out late and Samus being very floaty, so it's hard to take advantage of the small landing lag (for example, compared to Wolf's bair, they both have small landing lag but Samus's bair comes out later and Samus is floatier)

The best use would be imo SH behind them double bair, that's always fun and causes panic. Still probably punishable though.

Maybe SH insta bair, double jump away. this means that you can use it offensively and still try to get away.

 

[LanceStern]

it's too bad it KOs decently because it's just unrealistic to pull the bair off.

The hitbox is specfic (i.e. non-disjointed) and it comes out slow. The only use I've found for it is (somehow) baiting an air dodge and then bair punish. That or dair -> bair in some cases. Maybe you can punish REALLY laggy moves with a sh bair but that's tough.

Otherwise you can't use it for spacing or punishing.

F tier

 

[mountain_tiger]

Frame 9 moves are considered slow now?

Anyway, Bair is an alright move. Even if you don't hit with the sweetspot, it still makes a decent edgeguarding tool due to its decent range. You usually have better options in most other scenarios mind you...

 

[KillerJawz]

Frame 9 moves are considered slow now?

Thank you for pointing that out, I would have done so myself.

Frame 9 is by no means slow. Not the fastest thing in the world, but it's DEFINATLY not slow.

Anyway, Bair is an alright move. Even if you don't hit with the sweetspot, it still makes a decent edgeguarding tool due to its decent range. You usually have better options in most other scenarios mind you...

You literally read my mind. Good stuff.

 

[DelxDoom]

I think it's still too slow

 

[NO-IDea]

B-air:

10% normal, 14% and higher knockback sweetspotted. Also a really hard move to DI. One of those moves with high knockback that if you DI directly up, you can still be killed vertically depending on your character's weight class. And don't even try DI'ing left or right or at 120% it can still result in death on most stages.

That being said, it is rather hard to land on its own. It's not very uesful as an offensive spacing maneuver because of how slow it comes out. However, there are solid ways to land it. For example, platforms are a great way to set-up a b-air hit. Bait their shield, then attempt to shield poke. Read their air movements through a platform, bait their air dodge and punish. Start up with u-air, then avoid using the last hit of u-airs hitbox and switch into b-air.

The other common way to land b-air is off missile canceling. Homing missiles usually, but I've chained b-air off super missiles before at low percents. Also in common with platform pressuring, be sure to bait the shield if you're going for the b-air. And to space for the sweet-spot! This is very important. Higher shield stun and longest spacing = less punishment options for your opponent.

Finally, while b-air isn't the best spacing maneuver, it still is a great spacing punisher. It can punish Marth's f-air, DK's b-air and most other typical aerial spacers. Again, it all comes down to baiting and punishing. If they're going to use a rising aerial against you, short hop bait and b-air them. If they use a falling aerial against you, then get into their zone and punish OoS with up+b or n-air. If they use a retreating aerial against you, you can outspace them with z-air. In other words, don't let them spam aerials since you have an answer to all three kinds of them.

It's still a solid kill move, just a bit more difficult to land. But I've gotten more kills with b-air than f-smash, so as far as meeting the criteria it was designed for, b-air does the trick.

Final Judgment: B-tier

 

[DelxDoom]

I agree, it's about as useful as fsmash

 

[LanceStern]

Really? If I was too harsh the highest I would move it is bottom of C or something

EDIT: I did forget two of my favorite ways to hit bair -> walljumping off of stages like battlefield and running directly off the edge of a stage and immediately backairing.

 

[-Cross-]

A cool trick to get auto-sweetspot on bair everytime, is if you SH and bair twice at optimal speed. The second bair, if you hit a with the tip of her foot will always be sweetspot.

 

[KillerJawz]

Okay guys thanks for that input, Lance, I believe you didn't know enough about this move, so I didn't include your rating in the final edition. (No offense, it's just you rated a B/C material move F....)

We are now discussing argueably one of Samus's best aerials, Up Aerial

 

[-Cross-]

Uair as you said is definitely a candidate for her best aerial move. Multi-hit, comes out quickly, and combos ridiculously well. Tied for fastest aerial, starting at frame 5 and having multi-hitboxes makes it amazing for shield pressure in the form of platform pressure. Your pretty much guaranteed something good whether its getting a low shield or getting some damage, when you use uair on an opponent. When grounded, its riskier to get the uair off, but the rewards are just as great. I remember Xyro mentioning falling uair>upB is almost a guaranteed shield poke.

Autocancelling uair combos into upB and more moves with higher %, while landing all the hits on an airborne opponent may lead to a zair, a fair/nair, and even another uair. Also has some interesting edge guard potential which has been pointed out in the Ultimate Samus database thread. This is falling uair>zair for a gimp.

Also the range on this move is absolutely ridiculous. In terms of its ability to shut off aerial approaches from above, this move takes the cake. For instance, I have had numerous instances where I have beaten G&W's dair head on with uair. Screw attack can not do this. Now I do not know how uair fares against the other powerful dairs in this game (Lucario's, TL's etc) but so far uair has just been all profit for me.

Summary: Its ability to shut off vertical approaches makes it an incredibly safe alternative compared to Screw attack. The amount of shield pressure along with its combo ability are just amazing bonuses for this move. Especially the shield depletio, since it puts more pressure on the opponent coupled with your camping game and opens up more potential damage. Along with all this, uair still seems to have some unexplored uses. Unexplored potential on an already amazing move? I give S tier, if not high A tier.

 

[LanceStern]

Okay guys thanks for that input, Lance, I believe you didn't know enough about this move, so I didn't include your rating in the final edition. (No offense, it's just you rated a B/C material move F....)

We are now discussing argueably one of Samus's best aerials, Up Aerial

Nah I understand, perhaps I was too hasty.

I'm sad I missed Ftilt though. I think people could talk more about how useful it is when you angle it up/down.

 

[Karcist]

So this combos into almost every move (including itself), has great range, deals decent damage when hit fully, and has a sustaining hit box. I like when I don't hit my opponent fully then can chain it into another u air before I hit the ground, then screw attack as soon as I make ground contact. Soooo delicious.

I'm going to put this move in the S tier.

 

[KillerJawz]

Nah I understand, perhaps I was too hasty.

I'm sad I missed Ftilt though. I think people could talk more about how useful it is when you angle it up/down.

Ftilt is definatly one of the moves I wanted to come back to, so once we are done with everything, I'll alert you so you don't miss it

Guys don't forget you can SDI out of a uair, and if you hit it at the very tip it may not always get the full effects and it may be punished. Just keep note of those things before you say it's A / S tier. (Not that I disagree, it's A tier material imo)

 

[NO-IDea]

U-air:

...is awesome. Unfortunately, some Samus mains can't settle for that (KJ >.<) so let me go into detail for a bit.

Does 11% fresh when all hits connect, last hit having small horizontal knockback. Therefore, it's the penultimate combo move, almost always being able to chain into something else. If you connect with the last hit, you can nearly always chain a z-air if they're high up in the air (or force them to air dodge... I will re-address this again in a bit), chain a f-air at mid percents and even chain grabs at low percents.

What happens when you don't connect the last hit? If you're rising with the u-air, you may not have many options other than a footstool, which in itself isn't bad since you can reset spacing while the opponents readjust themselves. If you're at the same height, we've got n-air, z-air, and b-air, take your pick. If you're falling with u-air and don't connect, again all aerials come into play, predominantly n-air. Although if you auto-cancel it on the ground, we've then got d-smash, up+b, f-tilt, etc. At higher percents and correct spacing, you can true combo falling u-air->jab->f-smash because landing lag frames prevent them from shielding the f-smash.

There are advanced tactics with u-air as well. Going back onto u-air combos and connecting with the last hitbox, what if they air dodge? I pose this question because from here, Samus has a ton of bait and punish moves for the wary opponent that is scared of z-air. For example, off stage, how often have you chained u-air or z-air into a spike because your opponent air dodged too early out of prediction? Your answer should be "often enough to know it works!"

Experiment; try chaining charge shot to the last hit of u-air, even d-air while on stage. You can pivot grab off of falling u-air once you've conditioned your opponent to shield the up+b/d-smash/f-tilt etc. If you really want to be fancy, try u-air, bait their air dodge into dash attack (weak hit) into up+b. All you have to do is condition them to not double jump after u-air (because you can always follow-up with rising f-air by reaction) and then all the mind games from their limited air dodge come into play.

Other small notes: yes it is possible to SDI out of u-air since it is a multi-hit move, but then it all comes down to you knowing which aerial to follow up with or when to retreat. Also at higher percents, if u-air knocks them too far away, homing missiles are always a good follow-up option.

Finally, u-air's diagonal hitbox (somewhat disjointed at the tip) allows it to beat a multitude of d-airs in the cast. G&W is one if spaced correctly, as well as Lucario, Toon Link, even ICs if horizontal enough! U-air's hitbox also does a decent job of covering her mid section, allowing FF u-air to be a tool for gimping. Invincible rising/falling u-airs are always fun to do

That sums up everything I can think of for now. You can't really overestimate this move. That's how powerful of a combo tool it is in this game.

Final Judgment: S Tier

 

[KillerJawz]

u-air Is Awesome.

Anyhow You Don't Contribute More Then This, And Mah Falcon Will Make You Its Final 100-0 Mu D:

 

[NO-IDea]

I added where I think it should be placed on the tier list... xD

 

[KillerJawz]

I added where I think it should be placed on the tier list... xD

<_<...........................................

You have 1! hour.

 

[NO-IDea]

I'm not some Samus encylopedia ;_;

EDIT: It's done.

 

[KillerJawz]

I'm not some Samus encylopedia ;_;

You lie D:.

You are literally the defination of one.

 

[Throwback]

It's a sick move and we all know it. S-tier

 

[RaigothDagon]

Now, I'm seeing all of these high ratings for Samus' moves. I'm going to guess this tier list is only in relation to her other moves, not in relation to those of other characters, yes? Or am I not seeing the picture and this is in how useful a move is in general? Because most of these ratings are obscenely high for a character who now has third to last spot on the tier list on lockdown.

Now putting aside honesty and pessimism, this is a very versatile move indeed. Chains well into Samus' other aerials well at the start of each stock, and is one of the safest options aside from zair to edge guard with. Using it as a RAR offledge is useful since it has the chance of stage spiking the opponent. It's one of her few body moves that has a hitbox extending away from her body, making it safer than say, utilt. Good priority, quick move, great for shield pressure.

A big downfall seeming to be overlooked here, it sucks against tinies. They will never get hit by this move unless they are in the air. A big advantage to this move is how it is lagless upon landing, and being small pretty much nullifies one of it's greatest advantages.

If we are talking relation to Samus only, I agree S tier. Otherwise I give it A or B+.

 

[-Cross-]

Now, I'm seeing all of these high ratings for Samus' moves. I'm going to guess this tier list is only in relation to her other moves, not in relation to those of other characters, yes? Or am I not seeing the picture and this is in how useful a move is in general? Because most of these ratings are obscenely high for a character who now has third to last spot on the tier list on lockdown.

Now putting aside honesty and pessimism, this is a very versatile move indeed. Chains well into Samus' other aerials well at the start of each stock, and is one of the safest options aside from zair to edge guard with. Using it as a RAR offledge is useful since it has the chance of stage spiking the opponent. It's one of her few body moves that has a hitbox extending away from her body, making it safer than say, utilt. Good priority, quick move, great for shield pressure.

A big downfall seeming to be overlooked here, it sucks against tinies. They will never get hit by this move unless they are in the air. A big advantage to this move is how it is lagless upon landing, and being small pretty much nullifies one of it's greatest advantages.

If we are talking relation to Samus only, I agree S tier. Otherwise I give it A or B+.

This is considering how well the move serves its particular function for Samus only.

 

[KillerJawz]

This is considering how well the move serves its particular function for Samus only.

It does include certain types of characters, like for example, when we discussed usmash, we discussed how well it did on heavies/tallies in comparison to smalls.

Raigoth is looking at the move in ALL character situations, so his post by far has made the most non bias approach. As apposed to NOID (<3) who mostly talked about it's awesome amazement, but by NO means is this move B Tier material, I personally believe this is an A tier move, since you can DI out of it (and that is literally the main flaw to his move) I have to put it there, otherwise it would be sitting among the likes of Zair, which imho, is her ONLY S tier move.

Its hard to spot the flaws in Uair, since there are VERY few, but if you catch your opponent on the very tip of the move, their chances of falling out of it (no DI needed) are actually pretty high. It's also less effective on smalls or characters who are harder to shield poke because it's harder to follow up on.

Oh and Noid, the <3 is there, you know mah Falcon's wrath on 100-0s :O

 

[LanceStern]

A few uses I found from Uair that may not have been mentioned is:

- It's great for poking the opponent from under the stage (either places like Lylat or Delfino) or poking under the ledge (either wall jumping BF or just ledge dropping and jumping to uair).
- Uair WRECKS big characters, especially fat characters
- The way Uair combos into other moves if you don't land the last hit is insane. I personally like a ff uair to jab to anything else.
- FF uair -> screw attack for shield pokes.

- And lets not forget to mention we use it for momentum cancelling purposes... no matter how minute.

One of my favorite and most-used moves... S tier

If we're talking S tier as: there's no reason you should NOT be using this move... ever