Buff wishlist!

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Swamp Sensei

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Doesn't King K. Rool hold this honor?
Not in horizontal distance and not in unpredictability.

K.Rool's gonna recover the same way every time. If you can deal with that, he's easy to gimp.

Charizard can mix up his recovery with Flare Blitz, his third jump and Fly.
 
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Not in horizontal distance and not in unpredictability.

K.Rool's gonna recover the same way every time. If you can deal with that, he's easy to gimp.

Charizard can mix up his recovery with Flare Blitz, his third jump and Fly.
IMO, it's debatable.

Honestly, there's a lot ways to deal with K. Rool's Up-B and against certain MU's like :ultisabelle::ultmegaman::ultsonic:, it can be destroyed.
 
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Sean²

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Forget whatever I said before.

All I want for Christmas is for Richter's up B to cover more distance, and be able to grab ledge from behind. I would have 100% more fun with this character if he didn't get gimped by a stiff wind. If Incineroar can get a recovery buff, anyone can. Don't care if Simon gets the same because he ugly. He needs a face buff or a paper bag alt costume.
 

Ze Diglett

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Since I've picked up :ultkingdedede:, I'd really like if we could get a buff to his airspeed and make it so his Gordos don't get reflected if you sneeze on them. I get that having the lowest airspeed is kind of his "brand" when it comes to Smash, but he could use a lot of help getting in against projectile-heavy characters. Those matchups just completely smother the King as of now and they're not much fun to play at all; I'd like to be able to either approach or use my Gordos, if that's allowed.
 

Xelrog

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All I want for Christmas is for Richter's up B to cover more distance, and be able to grab ledge from behind.
I would love this for Peach/Daisy and their umbrellas. I recognize they're hardly characters that need buffs... but it just feels like such an arbitrary quirk to me that they can't grab ledges from behind, in the same way it feels odd to me that Ridley can only recover in four directions and K. Rool can't fire his cannon straight forward. Like... why?
 

Sean²

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I don't understand a lot of the decision making when it comes to recoveries in this game. I feel like this game would be a lot more rewarding if some of the insane recoveries that allow characters to go super deep were the only things nerfed in the entire lifetime of Ultimate. It gets exhausting edgeguarding an Inkling 5-6 times only for them to come back anyway any time I get advantage.
 

Luigifan18

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I don't understand a lot of the decision making when it comes to recoveries in this game. I feel like this game would be a lot more rewarding if some of the insane recoveries that allow characters to go super deep were the only things nerfed in the entire lifetime of Ultimate. It gets exhausting edgeguarding an Inkling 5-6 times only for them to come back anyway any time I get advantage.
How would you nerf a recovery, though...?
 

Sean²

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Mainly by decreasing the distance in which the up B travels on a lot of characters, or decreasing their window to autosnap. Edgeguarding and pressing your advantage should have incentive. Right now, just standing on the stage and going for a 2 frame or trying to ledge trap some of these characters with crazy recoveries are the best options. And on the other end of the stick, these characters can go so deep that some poorer recovery characters are just free when recovering.
 

Kiligar

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Here’s my Google Doc of Smash Ultimate changes so far covering most of the roster: https://docs.google.com/document/d/10QGd2Zg0_YUymYtrJ1WkPNn_FQ86f5pTCAE0e5LOdW0
Contains my opinions, and my knowledge is lacking on certain characters, but overall I think it would benefit the balance of the game. Some of you might be upset that certain characters did not receive buffs, but I am willing to discuss about what you have to say on the character.
 
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Xelrog

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Me personally? I would find it more fun if ALL recoveries had great distance but not so great speed. In my ideal Smash, every character can reasonably pursue off the stage. Finishing a stock is never guaranteed unless you're aggressive enough to go out there and confirm the kill.
 

Kiligar

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In my Dream Patch Doc, many characters receive buffs to their recovery. Dr.Mario’s no longer puts him in free fall meaning he can upward air dodge or down B to snap ledge, Little Mac, Simon/Richter, Samus and Ridley recovery all should go one training room cubit higher.
 

Wunderwaft

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Oh boy there's a lot of characters in my mind that I think needs buffs.

:ultridley:
Make Ridley a super heavy weight, he's lighter than Samus for crying out loud. A character with a big hitbox like him just screams combo food. As he is right now Ridley has the negatives of a heavy without the positives.

:ultlittlemac:
Make Little Mac's side B available after getting hit, also give his Up B some horizontal mobility. Buff the Mac dammit.

:ultisabelle:
Buff the kill power of Isabelle's mine. Seriously it's like an inferior version of Snake's C4 that only kills at very high percentages.

:ultbayonetta:
Make her moves less laggy, make Witch Time work as it's supposed to.

:ultdoc:
Make Doc's Up B go into a higher distance or don't let him fall into free fall after using the move. Either way please buff his recovery.

:ultsimon::ultrichter:
Give their Up B a higher vertical distance.


And that's all who is on my mind right now. There are probably more characters that I missed but these are the ones that I hope get buffed the most.
 

Arthur97

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I would love this for Peach/Daisy and their umbrellas. I recognize they're hardly characters that need buffs... but it just feels like such an arbitrary quirk to me that they can't grab ledges from behind, in the same way it feels odd to me that Ridley can only recover in four directions and K. Rool can't fire his cannon straight forward. Like... why?
Can't they grab it from behind if you close the parasol?
 
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Ultimate Bowser is easily the worst character to ever be put in a fighting game. The one thing that made him somewhat viable at all (up throw combos) got removed. the 2 other buffs he got are too minor to balance out one of the biggest nerfs in FGC history.

How he could be buffed:
  • Give him his up-throw back.
  • Give him a proper dair instead of an uncancellable stall-n-fall that leads to an instant death if used anywhere close to the edge of the stage.
  • Make his f-smash a little faster, because it's easily reactable in 95% of situations it's used in.
  • Make his side B actually work. The enemy is UNDER bowser, why does bowser die off the bottom FIRST?
  • Edit: Apparently, if the enemy is at a lower percent than Bowser, THEY CONTROL THE DIRECTION THE SIDE B GOES. WHY WAS THIS ADDED?!
Bowser is actually decent in this game, dunno what you're talking about

These are just all thing that've bothered me when playing.

:ultolimar: - Make Side B have less endleg.
:ultbowserjr: - Make Side B a combo tool again and make Down B a lot faster.
:ultmetaknight: - Buff Airspeed and make Dimensional Cape's non-attack variant go farther and have a lot less endlag and if he starts it on the ground, it shouldn't put him in a fall state.
:ultjigglypuff: - Make sing cancel-able near halfway through.
:ultkirby: - Buff airspeed, greatly increase range on inhale, make inhale able to spit out anything, make copys last longer, make Dthrow-Dsmash a kill confirm again, and make his Dattack keep it's powerful hit on the lingering hitbox.
:ultcloud:- Make his FSmash have less endlag.
:ultzss:- Make Dthrow have less endlag.
:ultdk:- Make Fthrow harder to break out of.
:ultlittlemac:- Make him able to Side B again offstage if hit.
:ultsnake:- Make Dthrow always have a true followup, even if it's just jab.
:ulticeclimbers: - Make desyncs easier.
No. We do not need to buff Olimar. He is already top 5, stop it.
 

Xelrog

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Can't they grab it from behind if you close the parasol?
They can, but the momentarily drop is a big difference maker more often than you'd think, and it's not particularly intuitive that they can't grab it from behind at any time like any other character.
 

Arthur97

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They can, but the momentarily drop is a big difference maker more often than you'd think, and it's not particularly intuitive that they can't grab it from behind at any time like any other character.
Well, they do probably have among the best recoveries thanks to how much they can stall.
 

Kiligar

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:ultpit:- These buffs apply to both Pits. First of all Pits Up Smash got heavily nerfed from smash 4. Its kill power is so lacking now, doesn’t kill middleweights at 110, which is disappointing since the attack is useless on the ground. It has 0 range behind and almost none in front. It also is a fake disjoint since Pit’s head moves upward during the move.
Second is Pits UAir. It’s one of the laggiest in the game and it doesn’t kill middleweights on the top platform at 150. It also has 0 follow up true combos due to its lag. Buff kill power please, should kill at 120 on top platform considering how laggy it is.
Pit Side Special. Using this move often gets you killed due to it not fulfilling its purpose. As said earlier in the thread, the super armor disappears for a frame after connecting with an opponents hitbox. This can end up losing you a stock as your quote on quote super armor fails in its own purpose. It’s a design flaw that should be patched. Furthermore, frame 11 is a little late. There are many moves in the game that have armor on frames 1-5, like Doc Down Special and Donkey King Side Special. Also, aerial lag is extreme. Try it for yourself, use pit side Special offstage.
Finally, forward tilt is awful in the neutral due to excess lag, and at high percent has pitiful knockback. It also comes out on the same frame as Pit’s Forward smash. These are a few changes I believe would really fix up Pit’s issues.
 
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Mario & Sonic Guy

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Well, they do probably have among the best recoveries thanks to how much they can stall.
Peach and Daisy have below average (when compared to more than half of the roster) air speed though, which can be a bit of a problem when approaching. Of course, I don't really know what makes Peach and Daisy highly viable.
 
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Rhus

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Since I've picked up :ultkingdedede:, I'd really like if we could get a buff to his airspeed and make it so his Gordos don't get reflected if you sneeze on them. I get that having the lowest airspeed is kind of his "brand" when it comes to Smash, but he could use a lot of help getting in against projectile-heavy characters. Those matchups just completely smother the King as of now and they're not much fun to play at all; I'd like to be able to either approach or use my Gordos, if that's allowed.
Gordos are so oppressive already. If you make them harder to deflect they would have to be nerfed in other ways to compensate, especially because he can inhale and regrab his gordos. Fighting him feels like a minigame of "who can bounce this back successfully."
 
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Who cares about air speed when you have among the most variable recoveries in the game?
It would still help when trying to move around more quickly, even if your recovery is already good. But it is a fighter dependent dilemma, and in the case of Peach, she has often felt like someone who should excel well in the air speed department. Maybe not top 5 levels, but more around Captain Falcon's level.

Debatable perhaps, but that's basically how I feel about the matter.
 

Arthur97

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It would still help when trying to move around more quickly, even if your recovery is already good. But it is a fighter dependent dilemma, and in the case of Peach, she has often felt like someone who should excel well in the air speed department. Maybe not top 5 levels, but more around Captain Falcon's level.

Debatable perhaps, but that's basically how I feel about the matter.
Do you realize how borderline broken they might be with higher airspeed?
 

Xelrog

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She wasn't especially fast in SMB2, so I don't know why Peach would be especially fast in Smash. I think her air speed is perfectly fine. She feels floaty, as she should.
 

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Do you realize how borderline broken they might be with higher airspeed?
One workaround could be to make most of the other fighters faster. But obviously, that's only part of the equation, since you also need to look at the movesets and attack frame data. Peach must've been blessed with a good moveset if she's far better than she was in Smash 3DS / Wii U.

She wasn't especially fast in SMB2, so I don't know why Peach would be especially fast in Smash. I think her air speed is perfectly fine. She feels floaty, as she should.
It's definitely ironic how Peach's air speed was set to top 5 levels when she debuted in Melee, only to get nerfed significantly upon transitioning over to Brawl.
 

Arthur97

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To be fair, it's not like she's traditionally very fast in her playable appearances. And making everyone else faster kind of negates the point doesn't it?
 

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To be fair, it's not like she's traditionally very fast in her playable appearances. And making everyone else faster kind of negates the point doesn't it?
It's a fighter dependent ordeal. When you look at Yoshi, he doesn't really need to be any faster than he already is, but could afford to have frame data improvements for certain attacks.

However, it is worth noting that despite having among the best air speed values in the Smash Bros. series, Yoshi actually moves at a slower speed whenever he flutter jumps in his games.

And then we have King K. Rool, where he's very desperate for mobility improvements. In the first Donkey Kong Country, he's able to run fast enough on two legs to keep up with Donkey Kong, and even travel a good distance with his jumps. And yet in Ultimate, his overall mobility is just very sad.
 
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Swamp Sensei

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Anyone on YouTube can explain to you why Olimar is so good. My explanations are pretty bad so I'd recommend you watch those if you want to really see why-
Basically, he's very effective at zoning. His aerials are great disjoints that beat out most other disjoints and his Pikmin Throw is a great way to rack up damage.

He's pretty hard to use due to all the micromanaging but he can be really scary.
 

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Some new inputs that could be worth bringing up.

:ultganondorf:
  • Down Smash: Make the first hit not send fighters toward Ganondorf. It would instead send fighters flying at a low angle, but damage dealt would be weaker than that of the second hit.
  • Flame Choke: Give the attack Flame Wave's properties. Grabbed fighters would be sent flying after being released, and while this would be a mixed blessing in that it hinders Ganondorf's follow-up options, at the same time, grabbed fighters wouldn't be able to punish Ganondorf right back.
  • Wizard's Foot: Change the attack into Wizard's Dropkick. Damage dealt would be weaker, but the aerial variant's horizontal movement would be helpful when trying to recover.
 

Xelrog

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Wizard's Foot: Change the attack into Wizard's Dropkick. Damage dealt would be weaker, but the aerial variant's horizontal movement would be helpful when trying to recover.
This is the only buff, and even then he loses some utility. The other two are hard nerfs.

The down smash change would only make the move even weaker. Most of the time the first hit chains into the second one. Why would you take that away? The end result is just less damage. Flame Choke is one of Ganondorf's best moves because there are only a handful of ways the opponent can react after the drop, making it a crucial tool for getting hits off reads. No Ganondorf worth his name gets punished by the person who was just grabbed. Either the Ganondorf gets another hit, or the person escapes with their life. Flame Wave would absolutely neuter the move.
 
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Mario & Sonic Guy

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The down smash change would only make the move even weaker. Most of the time the first hit chains into the second one. Why would you take that away? The end result is just less damage. Flame Choke is one of Ganondorf's best moves because there are only a handful of ways the opponent can react after the drop, making it a crucial tool for getting hits off reads. No Ganondorf worth his name gets punished by the person who was just grabbed. Either the Ganondorf gets another hit, or the person escapes with their life. Flame Wave would absolutely neuter the move.
Knockback values would have to be kept in mind, and I was thinking about the amount of ending lag that Flame Choke may have as well. But I guess ending lag becomes irrelevant when FAF is taken into account, and making an attack become a KO maker isn't always the right move.
 

Xelrog

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Even if the knockback was as extreme as his Ftilt... why wouldn't you just use the Ftilt, or Dtilt if you need a low-striking move? The long duration and relatively short range of the down smash are its major shortcomings. To be honest, it should really just be something different entirely if it's to have any utility. Something that hits on both sides more or less simultaneously, to compete with his up smash.

As unlikely as it is, especially given that they would probably want to keep all his smashes sword-themed, I would quite like it if the down smash were his lightning fist move from Ocarina. He does a little hop and slams into the ground, dealing some area damage, similar to K. Rool's.
 

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Copying Ike's down smash could be another option, but that would require drastic animation changes, and both hits with the sword would have to be equally powerful (damage AND knockback dealt) so that there's a practical reason to use the attack.
 
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