Buff wishlist!

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Regarding Palutena, either buff her f-smash and d-smash to be much stronger and do way more shield damage, or reduce he startup and endlag. They're way too risky. Palutena has two almost useless high risk low reward smash attacks.
The thing is though is that she doesn't need them. She's great as she is and honestly I don't think she needs anything.

D-Smash can be used to 3-frame the edge but really if they buffed them she would be even better than she already is and that would just lead to nerfs probably. And I don't think anyone wants that.
 

MG_3989

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Weren't there people suggesting Olimar was near top-tier because of some crazy combo game this time around? Up there with discussions about Pikachu and Inkling?
Olimar is no doubt top tier and seriously doesn’t need any buffs. I’d actually say nerfing his up smash would be fair. It’s too good

Also I actually think YL can use a kill power buffs by about 10%. Killing at 140-160% really hurts him and while he is a high tier he’s not seeing any representation in tournaments at the top level because of his weight and problems killing. YL isn’t desperate for buffs but it wouldn’t hurt and he could benefit from some more knock back (as long as it didn’t kill his combo game). It certainly wouldn’t be as unwarranted as Olimar, Wolf, Inkling, and Palutena getting buffed like people are asking for in this thread

Wolf however is a bonfied top 10 character in the game, likely top 5. Buffing him, Olimar, Inkling, etc... would be terrible for the game. Luckily the top tiers in this game aren’t overcentralizing and we don’t need to make them that. Palutena also doesn’t need buffs. I don’t know why people are suggesting buffing top 10-20 characters

The characters I think seriously need buffs (I don’t even know if buffs will work, these characters are kind of broken by nature) are Bayonetta and Shiek. Shiek puts in way too much effort into long strings and combos and gets almost no reward from it because of the damage needs. Shiek also has a TON of trouble killing. Bayonetta isn’t really a functional character, her combos and moves are inconsistent, she can’t kill, and she doesn’t really work at all. Those are the two characters I’d like to see buffed most
 
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Olimar is no doubt top tier and seriously doesn’t need any buffs. I’d actually say nerfing his up smash would be fair. It’s too good

Wolf however is a bonfied top 10 character in the game, likely top 5. Buffing him, Olimar, Inkling, etc... would be terrible for the game. Luckily the top tiers in this game aren’t overcentralizing and we don’t need to make them that. Palutena also doesn’t need buffs. I don’t know why people are suggesting buffing top 10-20 characters

The characters I think seriously need buffs (I don’t even know if buffs will work, these characters are kind of broken by nature) are Bayonetta and Shiek. Shiek puts in way too much effort into long strings and combos and gets almost new reward from it because of th damage needs. Shiek also has a TON of trouble killing. Bayonetta isn’t really a functional character, her combos and moves are inconsistent, she can’t kill, and she doesn’t really work at all. Those are the two characters I’d like to see buffed most
I agree with all this.

Especially with what you said about Olimar, Wolf, Sheik, and Bayonetta.

Honestly playing Bayo now is painful. I don't think her getting her stupid good recovery from Sm4sh back is the right direction, but she needs something. Literally, how do you even kill with her and why would you even use Witch Time now?

Also I actually think YL can use a kill power buffs by about 10%. Killing at 140-160% really hurts him and while he is a high tier he’s not seeing any representation in tournaments at the top level because of his weight and problems killing. YL isn’t desperate for buffs but it wouldn’t hurt and he could benefit from some more knock back (as long as it didn’t kill his combo game). It certainly wouldn’t be as unwarranted as Olimar, Wolf, Inkling, and Palutena getting buffed like people are asking for in this thread
I dunno, I just don't want to deal with more YLs I guess lol. Though Up-B kills at a decent percentage and has a few hits it is easy to kill confirm off of.

I totally agree with the last sentence here though. I main Palu and I def don't want any buffs for her because it is unneeded. Its like asking for Peach buffs.
 

MG_3989

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I agree with all this.

Especially with what you said about Olimar, Wolf, Sheik, and Bayonetta.

Honestly playing Bayo now is painful. I don't think her getting her stupid good recovery from Sm4sh back is the right direction, but she needs something. Literally, how do you even kill with her and why would you even use Witch Time now?



I dunno, I just don't want to deal with more YLs I guess lol. Though Up-B kills at a decent percentage and has a few hits it is easy to kill confirm off of.

I totally agree with the last sentence here though. I main Palu and I def don't want any buffs for her because it is unneeded. Its like asking for Peach buffs.
Bayo is a hard case because I don’t even know what to do with her. She’s just not good and so inconsistent and she can be a really cool character

While I don’t think YL NEEDS buffs I don’t think it would hurt the game at low or high levels. He’s a good character but at high levels he’s lacking representation and results and at lower levels he isn’t polarizing and I don’t think a slight kill power buff would change that. He’s not gonna get that buff though and I’m fine with that
 
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:ultkingdedede:Increase the damage required to reflect gordos to something like 5 or 6% so a well timed f-tilt can reflect them and not literally someone's Jab or getup. Also adjust the gordo launch angles back to Smash 4, the new ones are too janky.
 

Felancius

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Give Daisy a speed buff that Peach doesn't get so that she's actually an echo fighter and not a glorified reskin I say.

...On a serious note, I kinda hope they buff some of the lower tiered characters in general, especially Kirby and Little Mac (He desperately needs a buff, a large one)
 

Xelrog

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Little Mac needs a change of design, he's way too polarizing in concept and archetype to be effective in Smash.
What is it, specifically, that people think breaks him?

Would he be workable with no aerials but decent recovery? Decent aerials but no recovery? I'm still not convinced his base concept of "great on the ground/terrible in the air" can't work, especially with recent additions to the roster. I'm just curious where the threshold of "more bad than good" lies.
 
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What is it, specifically, that people think breaks him?

Would he be workable with no aerials but decent recovery? Decent aerials but no recovery? I'm still not convinced his base concept of "great on the ground/terrible in the air" can't work, especially with recent additions to the roster. I'm just curious where the threshold of "more bad than good" lies.
Still no good reason why is his throws are so underwhelming.
(The "he's a boxer" argument doesn't cut it)
 

Diddy Kong

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I really don't know how to fix him without making him absolutely broken like he was in the early Smash 3DS days. I guess improve his aerials and grabs a little, allow them for set ups for his ground game. Otherwise I literally have no clue. Can't stand playing Little Mac honestly, I already play characters who are quite polarizing, like DK and Mewtwo, and that's enough for me. I've also been playing them since 64 / Melee, so really, can't be bothered with Little Mac because I never even played Punch Out in the first place :laugh:
 
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What is it, specifically, that people think breaks him?

Would he be workable with no aerials but decent recovery? Decent aerials but no recovery? I'm still not convinced his base concept of "great on the ground/terrible in the air" can't work, especially with recent additions to the roster. I'm just curious where the threshold of "more bad than good" lies.
He has half a moveset. He's designed to be a glass cannon but instead he just sucks. There's no correct way to play little mac other than up tit and f-smash spam.

They need to completely reboot his moveset. Give him an actual recovery and aerial moves plus good throws. Even if he's no "air fighter," plentyof other characters in this game have ghastly inconsistencies. There's no reason LM should be punished for this.
 

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Sounds like Little Mac is doing much worse in Ultimate than in Smash Wii U. Rather ironic, considering that the latter game plagued him with (arguably) the worst recovery of any fighter.
 
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Commenting on characters I have played a fair amount with:

:ultpokemontrainerf: - :ultcharizard: desperately needs buffs all around, especially to Flamethrower now that :ultbowser:'s Fire Breath got massively buffed. Also, :ultsquirtle: should get more reward for Withdrawal considering how punishable it can be.
:ultbayonetta: - I like her new combo game in theory, but SDI completely destroys it. Nerf SDI on her moves, and maybe buff regular DI on them if they become ridiculous again. I would also like her smash attacks to kill a bit earlier, jab to kill much earlier F-tilt to have a purpose, and D-tilt to not whiff when the animation hits.
:ultdoc: - I don't know if it's just placebo, but I can't do turnaround Super Jump Punch nearly as easily in this game as I could in Smash 4, especially if the move connects. I would also like if that move traveled a bit farther to help his pitiful recovery. A bit more movement speed wouldn't hurt, as well.
:ultduckhunt: - Who decided that a mid tier needed a nerf to Clay Shooting, a move that was finally made viable? I would revert that as well as all the nerfs to their aerials they got between the games, and increase the range of their U-tilt now that it doesn't really kill.
:ultjigglypuff: - I would like my grab to serve some purpose, please!
:ultluigi: - I have no clue why his Z-air isn't a tether recovery with how much they nerfed his recovery through Cyclone already. I actually think he's fine besides this, the U-smash and Cyclone knockback buffs were much appreciated.
:ultmarth: - It's sad how tiny tipper hitboxes and minimal reward for tippers outside of select moves makes him simply worse than Lucina.
:ultpacman: - Why is the range on U-tilt so tiny? I know it has minimal lag, but that doesn't matter when I can't even hit opponents that are right next to me!
:ultfalcon: - Fix Raptor Boost's hitbox, but otherwise I think he's fine once Fatality gets good with him and figures out the new strats.
:ultcorrinf: - I feel like the recovery nerf was completely unwarranted, but otherwise she's fine.
:ultdiddy: - Same as Corrin.
:ultfalco: - I would like it if his smash attacks and Fire Bird weren't straight-up downgrades of Fox's renditions, though this would probably involve a debuff of Fox's F-smash. Also, Reflector should get some sort of change that makes it not just a worse reflector than basically all other reflects in the game.
:ultincineroar: - The patch was good, but I would still appreciate a bit more speed, more of the hitbox on D-air to spike, more knockback on Darkest Lariat, more consistency in landing Alolan Whip, and more consistency in Cross Chop to connect hit 1 to hit 2 now that he rises higher.
:ultlucas: - I just want a decent combo throw back. I don't care about the kill confirm, I just want it to connect to more than one move.
:ultgunner: - I don't see why they made F-air have that little range, even considering the reduction in lag that it got.
:ultgnw: - His new F-air is cool, but I think the weak up-close hitbox should true combo into the bomb explosion, and I would maybe make the bomb harder to clank with or explode early instead of clanking. Also, I feel like F-tilt and D-tilt serve redundant purposes, and U-tilt is simply worse than it was in Smash 4.
:ultpiranha: - Why do all of its aerials have so much end lag and landing lag? Also, increase the range of its jab, tilts, and grab, fix the Z-axis problem with U-air, trade out some of the super armor during the charge on Long-Stem Strike for some armor during the attack itself, and make him teleport to the place of any hit he may receive during that move. I'm worried it might get a nerf to the damage of Poison Breath, but this shouldn't affect him too much.
:ultsheik: - Well, I USED to play her a fair amount until she started doing a third of the damage that the rest of the cast does.
:ulttoonlink: - A bit more kill power to make him distinct from :ultyounglink:.
 
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MASTER719

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Link: Pulls bombs faster when airborne, jab and bomb detonation reduced to 5 frames, detonation cancels all attacks (nothing like missing a bomb combo because of endlag)
 

DelugeTN

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Cloud: Slightly larger NAir, otherwise I find him solid and think far too many people assume he's worse than he is.

Captain Falcon: Faster dash speed / startup and a longer dash grab would be nice, it would cure his problem of having trouble getting his glorious air wobbles and knee combos going out of neutral. Captain Falcon has always had a blisteringly fast dash, and even though his dash is still fast in general.. it's not the Cap'n we know. His dash grab is also just.. absolutely pathetic, it NEEDS more range and shouldn't be that bad. Even RC Grab Boosting doesn't do jack for the Cap'n. Raptor Boost (Side B) also does some weird stuff sometimes with its hitbox that definitely doesn't feel intentional.

Simon & Richter: I feel like the whip should be a tether grab, since it's also a stage tether. It would allow them to hold down their position against rushdown characters (at least in a way that gives them a chance) in neutral and would even them out as a whole very well I think.

Mewtwo: Fix his hurtbox, it's so janky and huge that he just gets smacked around the stage for free once he loses neutral. The tail part is the main issue, Mewtwo is completely incapable of landing out of a juggle or doing anything to stop a combo.. which sucks because otherwise he has a lot of potential in Ult.

Doctor Mario: For the love of god, why is his Super Jump Punch (Up B) so bad as a recovery move? I understand Doc hits like a sack of bricks and has a lot of good tools to balance out him being much slower as a character than Mario, but he dies for free any time you get him any decent ways offstage and it makes doing anything that isn't cape or neutral B based as an edge guard so risky. It needs a bit more vertical gain, either that or tornado needs more horizontal gain.. or both. There is no reason Doc's recovery should be THIS bad, it's not like he's some massive threat on stage (I find him to be one of the most honest characters in the game, truthfully) and has Little Mac levels of ground control or anything of the sort.. so I really cannot fathom why they felt the need to neuter his recovery so badly.

Game & Watch: Get rid of the abomination that is his new bomb FAir and bring back the old box flip FAir.. the new one just completely ruins him as it was basically his best aerial and a really good option for a lot of things. He just feels wrong without the box flip FAir.. and it's not even as if the bomb FAir is good as a replacement, it's abysmal and only contributes to G&W's Low-Tier position further.

Charizard: Lol why? Really why? Charizard is one of the worst characters in this game and definitely, bar-none the worst heavy. Why did he have to lose Rock Smash..? Why is Flare Blitz so bad..? Why is he so bad? Buff this entire character, please.

Sheik: Sheik is a character that constantly makes me rethink my placement of her on the lower end of mid-tier every time I play or fight her.. until we get further into the match and I'm nearing 200% as Sheik plows on like the Little Engine that Could trying to do everything in her power to kill me. Nothing Sheik has kills, it's laughably apparent once you've fought her a few times. If Sheik can't gimp you offstage, you're living a LONG time in this MU. Sheik has a ton of potential, sick combo game and a lot of great tools.. but cannot kill to save her Hylian life. Give her some kill moves, please.. moves such as FSmash especially have no business killing as late as they do. Her damage output is ROUGH now too, she has to work so hard to do what other characters can earn in a handful of stray hits.. please buff Sheik.

Robin: I feel like durability could do with a bit of a buff, namely on Levin Sword and Side B. I feel like it runs out too fast for a character that struggles so much with everything outside of neutral and nothing feels worse than being denied a kill because Levin ran out one hit too soon.. it just overall runs out really quickly I think.

Marth: The tipper is the size of a Tic-Tac and Ultimate is WAY faster than the last two Smash games we've gotten, so it all works out to really screw Marth, especially in comparison to his Echo. There's literally zero reason to ever even consider picking Marth over Lucina unless it's just preference of the character itself right now, and a big part of that is because landing Marth's tipper is so inconsistent. Make the tipper hitbox larger, problem solved.

Incineroar: The recovery problem isn't really gone, but the primary issue is speed. A lot of his moves comes out slower than I feel like they should, and I feel the entire character moves around like he's underwater and it feels like a needless way to counteract his strengths when he gets flexed on so easily as it is.

Piranha Plant: I'm embarrassed to have ever seen potential in this character.. to think I considered maining him. I don't even know where to start with the plant. His aerials all have landing lag that makes him feel more like a Smash 4 / Brawl character than an Ultimate character and it almost reminds me of G&W's janky situation with being unable to L-Cancel a good number of his moves in Melee. This character just feels.. incomplete, rushed almost. People are quick to point out the few good things the plant has to defend it, such as how the plant tends to live to high percents, has a very good recovery (albeit an extremely punishable one), 'can do s1ck mixups with patooie and poison cloud' and can actually be annoying to come back to the stage against sometimes.. but all of this falls apart once you've both played and watched PP at a higher level. Evey single option the plant has is either suboptimal to all hell, or gets him punished and likely killed because all said he's a big hurtbox and doesn't have a whole lot going on to help him escape. Once you learn the MU, you can avoid Patooie and read Poison Cloud in your sleep. PP feels bad for the sake of being bad, and almost everything about him is wrong. He doesn't even have the gimmick excuse of 'amazing ground game' or something such as a Low Tier like Mac.. he's just bad as-is for no reason. Buff.. everything, really.
 
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nudie mags

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I'd like some more tech on fox personally. Compared to older games, he seems to have been boiled down to 2 approaches:
1. Dash Attack
2. Some sort of nair

I wouldn't mind a slight buff (more knock-back, spiking or speed to come out) to his reflector, not asking for the melee reflector, but compared to falco, his needs to be very precise to even be viable as a "get off me" type move.
 

OctoWich

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Kirby:
- Permanent copy abilities (unless you get KO'd or taunt.) It's his main shtick and he loses them so easily.
- Faster Air Speed.
- Slightly faster Ground Speed.
- More kill power with up throw.
- Change forward throw so I can combo off it under platforms.
- Heal much more from swallowed projectiles (1% is ridiculously bad, it should vary based on power of the projectile.)
Wishful thinking, for fun:
- New Side B: Beam. Press to send a beam out in front, hold to send a flying orb.​
- Hammer is now his side smash and is just a simple swing.​
- New Grab: Whip. The whip from his games, has range but is slower and can be used to tether and attack.​
 
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Jaro235

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I really hope Sheik gets some good buffs in the update, more than any other character. I find her so fun to use, but I have way too hard of a time killing with her. I was fighting a Pichu last night and I didn’t KO him until over 200%! I want her kill power on her moves to get buffed and/or have her combos do much more damage. She just has to put in so much work and she does not get much out of it, while other characters are capable of doing 50% damage within just a few hits. If she could get these buffs, I think she could actually be really good because she still has plenty of combos and she is very fast. She has potential and even if they don’t buff her, I won’t give up on her.
 

DelugeTN

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Like I understand Sheik has historically been a good character and maybe Sakurai felt it was time for her to step back, but there's NO reason moves like FSmash should be lived from (with decent DI, granted) past 120%. Her damage output is a big problem as well.
 

DelugeTN

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I wouldn't exactly oppose Kirby having his copy last longer, but I think it's one of the least pressing issues Kirby has. Kirby is hurt far more by things such as abysmal air and ground speed, which really hurts his ability to follow up (he actually has decent combo potential on his moves) and escape disadvantage. There's also pretty much jack he can do to stop himself from getting edge guarded.. unless he goes high, Kirby is almost always a free meteor offstage for me.
 

R3v3ng3

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I think we all understand that there are some moves in Ultimate that are good. But, nothing is inherently broken, We're not dealing with multi-shines or vanilla Bayo ladder combos. Nerfing a fighter means tearing apart their playerbase and is more or less a necessary evil than doing good. It would be better, in my opinion, to buff weaker fighters than nerf today's top tiers. So, what are the fighters who you would like to see buffs in?

I'll start: King Dedede needs a buff to his airspeed and less landing lag overall. Something simple yet effective.
falcon.just falcon.maybe fox shine.but still falcon
 

DelugeTN

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Falcon really does need a faster dash and a better dash grab. He's still good, a lot of people are playing him like Sm4sh Falcon or Melee Falcon and getting meh results. In reality, Ult Falcon plays like a bit of a mix of Melee and 4 Falcon, though he's more similar to Melee Falcon now.. just slower.

I'm bonded with Falcon, even though I main Cloud exclusively and have since 4 onward, he'll always be my go-to secondary and my primary main in the games where Cloud isn't present. I play Cloud for several reasons, some being my love for FF and the character, others being he fits my play-style perfectly and I like his design.. but Falcon? I never played F-Zero. I don't care, about F-Zero. But you mess with the Cap'n? Talk down, on the Cap'n? We're having words. Captain Falcon is my original main, the first character that I was ever truly worth even a grain of dirt with.. and I can't forget that.

If he were buffed, I'd probably split main Cloud 60% of the time and him 40% of the time, but until then Cloud is my only main and Falcon one of (though still the primary of the two) my two secondaries along with Richter. I can't not love him, memeing swaglord nature aside, he's a baller character who has some of THE most hype momentum plays on the roster when he gets the engines started.. air wobbling people to death from 0% out of one DThrow via a string of NAir's, UAir's and then going into a Knee (FAir).. well that's just too gosh darned fun to ignore. I also feel visceral satisfaction every time I jump out post-turnaround with CF off stage and finish an edgeguard stock with his BAir. I can never stop using Falcon. Ever.
 
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TheTrueBrawler

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This isn't coming from a balance perspective, but to be fair... he loses them even easier in the Kirby games.
What determines if you lose your copy ability? Is it based on random chance, how strong the move that hit you is, or something else?

In the Smash Bros games that is. I already know that it's guaranteed in the Kirby Games (at least in Squeak Squad).
 
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This isn't coming from a balance perspective, but to be fair... he loses them even easier in the Kirby games.
Not really, unless there's a specific algorithm that determines if you lose them for comparison.

All I know is that in the Kirby games it usually takes a really strong hit to lose your CA but now half the hits I take in Smash cause me to lose it.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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Like I understand Sheik has historically been a good character and maybe Sakurai felt it was time for her to step back, but there's NO reason moves like FSmash should be lived from (with decent DI, granted) past 120%. Her damage output is a big problem as well.
It doesn't exactly help if the KBG isn't strong enough to make up for the low damage output. Of course, higher KBG can be a mixed blessing for certain attacks, since if it's too high, the fighter's ability to perform follow-ups at higher damage percentages would end up taking a hit.
 

DelugeTN

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I find the knockback on Sheik's attacks does a fair bit to help her combo, but in the end proper DI makes it easy to escape if you play a character who isn't combo food and has decent fall speed / air mobility. It's fine for certain moves, Sheik's moves could all have low knockback modifiers or set knockback to allow her to combo consistently, then you could 2-3 moves that were solid options that could be followed into (via kill confirms) via above low / set knockback attacks / throws.

The problem is, Sheik does very little damage AND can't kill, making taking stocks with her an absolute chore. There's never a moment as Sheik where you feel like you aren't working MUCH harder than your opponent just to keep it even unless you're fighting low tiers or something. She needs at least a handful of moves that can kill, AND that can be setup well enough via confirms and follow throughs.. + more damage overall on her moves. As-is she's in a very unfortunate place. Her design as a character could work VERY well in Ult, but with her current damage / knockback she's never going to be anything more than low mid-tier. Sheik doesn't have to be the tech chasing FTilt to FAir robot she is in Melee, but I'd at least like her to be viable.
 
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Haden

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Un-Nurf Zero Suit Samus' butt plz.
That thing went from glorious to brick wall over the course of transitioning from smash4 to ultimate.
 
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Sky_B

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The buff Cpt. Falcon group would like their wish granted. Seriously, what has Sakurai done to him?
 
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DelugeTN

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I mean the Falcon problem isn't some hugely complex issue, his dash speed and grab range just fall a little short for what the character needs to do his thing in neutral. It wouldn't take a whole lot in terms of what to buff to make him fantastic, and he's still quite viable as-is. I'd still say he NEEDS a buff, though, Falcon doesn't feel right when he can't dash in at the speed of light and grab you after you made a .002 second mistake in neutral.
 

DelugeTN

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I'd still say he's not unique enough, it's clear they wanted him to be the most different Link, but I feel like they sold him short in the process and it leaves him in quite a strange place. Like Young Link he cannot kill well, but he lacks the rushdown / pressure ability of YL due to being a quite floaty, slower character. The moves on TL that ARE different also are just, much worse than what they replaced imo. Despite not having the greatest kill ability, YL can spew out damage very quickly and also has decent enough zoning ability. YL's arrows can act as kill confirms once he does build up to the high % it takes, which as I said doesn't take a character like YL very long to build to so he's still very good.

TL is confined to staying out of sword range, chucking bombs and going for short-range zone tactics in order to land a few stray aerials as punishes / reactions, then resetting neutral until he finally racks up the ton of % it takes for him to score kills or gets lucky and gimps them earlier. Any character that can also play a patient neutral and/or has zoning ability usually plain outdoes TL, and any character with decent speed and/or large hitboxes just rips him apart. He has a lot of bad matchups and I just feel if he was made more unique in some kind of meaningful way he wouldn't be so bad.

As of right now, he feels like a watered down YL that can't do anything better than the other two Links can. He can't turtle / zone like adult Link and he can't rush you down and constantly be an annoying piss ant like Young Link can.. so he's stuck in mid tier. Needs several buffs, but I can't think of any one specific thing that would help him out a lot. He just kind of has a bad core design for Ult imo.

Yeah he can still do Link stuff, like near-impossible bomb recoveries, being a pain to edge guard, etc.. but his problems REALLY hold him back. The only way he can really get kills is to build you to 135-170% (depending on character weight) and then hope one of his bombs + bad DI on your part allows him to set up the kill.. other than that it's basically just landing stray hits in neutral when you're at VERY high % or getting lucky enough to 2 frame gimp you with his wonky DAir. YL doesn't have this problem, it still takes him a while to kill, but once he gets you to kill % (which doesn't take him nearly as long as TL in the first place) he has a handful of pretty consistent tools to take you out. TL just doesn't measure up to that, and COMPLETELY pales to adult Link.

Also, unrelated to his balance as a character / tier placement.. but GOD I hate the noises his sword makes when hitting things. It makes you feel like you're smacking people around with a rubber sword, it's just so unsatisfying.
 
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Arthur97

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 7, 2016
Messages
1,749
I'd still say he's not unique enough, it's clear they wanted him to be the most different Link, but I feel like they sold him short in the process and it leaves him in quite a strange place. Like Young Link he cannot kill well, but he lacks the rushdown / pressure ability of YL due to being a quite floaty, slower character. The moves on TL that ARE different also are just, much worse than what they replaced imo. Despite not having the greatest kill ability, YL can spew out damage very quickly and also has decent enough zoning ability. YL's arrows can act as kill confirms once he does build up to the high % it takes, which as I said doesn't take a character like YL very long to build to so he's still very good.

TL is confined to staying out of sword range, chucking bombs and going for short-range zone tactics in order to land a few stray aerials as punishes / reactions, then resetting neutral until he finally racks up the ton of % it takes for him to score kills or gets lucky and gimps them earlier. Any character that can also play a patient neutral and/or has zoning ability usually plain outdoes TL, and any character with decent speed and/or large hitboxes just rips him apart. He has a lot of bad matchups and I just feel if he was made more unique in some kind of meaningful way he wouldn't be so bad.

As of right now, he feels like a watered down YL that can't do anything better than the other two Links can. He can't turtle / zone like adult Link and he can't rush you down and constantly be an annoying piss ant like Young Link can.. so he's stuck in mid tier. Needs several buffs, but I can't thing of any one specific thing that would help him out a lot. He just kind of has a bad core design for Ult imo.

Yeah he can still do Link stuff, like near-impossible bomb recoveries, being a pain to edge guard, etc.. but his problems REALLY hold him back. The only way he can really get kills is to build you to 135-170% (depending on character weight) and then hope one of his bombs + bad DI on your part allows him to set up the kill.. other than that it's basically just landing stray hits in neutral when you're at VERY high % or getting lucky enough to 2 frame gimp you with his wonky DAir. YL doesn't have this problem, it still takes him a while to kill, but once he gets you to kill % (which doesn't take him nearly as long as TL in the first place) he has a handful of pretty consistent tools to take you out. TL just doesn't measure up to that, and COMPLETELY pales to adult Link.

Also, unrelated to his balance as a character / tier placement.. but GOD I hate the noises his sword makes when hitting things. It makes you feel like you're smacking people around with a rubber sword, it's just so unsatisfying.
Frankly, I can kill much better with him than Young Link. He's probably my preferred Link.
 
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