Buff wishlist!

[Crystanium]

Really? It's the heavies that give me problems with Ridley.

With the exception of D3 and King K. Rool, Bowser and DK move pretty quick for their size.

 

[T-Donor66]

See, this is the response I expect from Ridley mains. Either I'm "not using Ridley correctly", or he's not that great. Ridley's recovery is subpar. He's easy combo food. His projectile game is lousy. We can do friendlies. I'm fine with that. Show me what Ridley can do because he's not cutting it for me and that makes me upset. Fast characters screw him over hard.

Im down to play tomorrow if you want. Im not trying to put you down but from what I’ve read, you really are missing the point of how Ridley is meant to be played.

You shouldn’t even put him in the category of “heavy”, because he plays nothing like them. His recovery is far from subpar, he has in instant escape button with nair, neutral b forces a jump and is most used for edgeguarding (incredibly effective), side b grants instant advantage state and leads into an edgeguarding situation (which Ridley excells at).

Let me know when you wanna play. I can show you how good he is and give you some tips so you can start enjoying him as well!

 

[Idon]

Oy, can Marth's uthrow kill at 180% like it used to?

Thanks.

 

[Crystanium]

T-Donor66
I'm kind of baffled at how one can even say Ridley should be played, considering he's very new. I thought I did well against my brother with Ridley, but then I go online and while I made it to Elite Smash, I've been kicked out of it a few times. My Samus and Dark Samus made it in Elite Smash and have remained there since.

Ridley is both heavy and a big body, but I see what you're saying. I've tried using n-air and f-air for spacing options. One set against Snake seemed fine, mainly because Snake tends to camp. I would appreciate knowing how to use Ridley's moveset properly. I'm in Pacific Standard Time. I work tomorrow, but if you have a Discord account, you can find me at the Samus/Dark Samus server under the name "Crystanium".

 

[T-Donor66]

T-Donor66
I'm kind of baffled at how one can even say Ridley should be played, considering he's very new. I thought I did well against my brother with Ridley, but then I go online and while I made it to Elite Smash, I've been kicked out of it a few times. My Samus and Dark Samus made it in Elite Smash and have remained there since.

Ridley is both heavy and a big body, but I see what you're saying. I've tried using n-air and f-air for spacing options. One set against Snake seemed fine, mainly because Snake tends to camp. I would appreciate knowing how to use Ridley's moveset properly. I'm in Pacific Standard Time. I work tomorrow, but if you have a Discord account, you can find me at the Samus/Dark Samus server under the name "Crystanium".

Great. I’ll add you tomorrow so we can set up a time to play.

Trust me, on the day the game released, none of us on the Ridley discord had any idea what to do with him. But its been over a month how and we have a general gameplan and style with him, and have an idea on how to utilize and link his best moves, which I will show you.

 

[EGsmash]

Make his Dthrow bury for more than 5 frames or give back the old Dthrow. Maybe make his backthrow kill again at not stupid high % too.
Poor Rosaluma got the biggest nerfs in the game. Make her viable again (No, frame-perfect cancel tricks don't count). Luma needs to advance on jab again, and Nair needs to have a lower hitbox on startup.

 

[Sari]

Increase the horizontal range on up-tilt. Most of the time my fist will go right through the opponent when they are right next to me.

 

[RazorGuild]

buff grabs to their state in smash 4. They’re really bad in ultimate right now.

 

[Iridium]

: buff the speed of his jab (it's frame 8 now, down from frame 7 for some reason); maybe to frame 6?

A slight increase in distance for his Spin Attack would be nice. When I mean slight, I mean slight to the point where people still can't say it invalidates the ones from & , but is better.

Perhaps a kill throw with his u-throw would be okay as well, around 160%, I was thinking. There's next to no other use for it, aside from bomb tricks.

Uh, not going to impact him a lot, but please remove that stupid Spin Attack glitch that causes Link to die at the ledge. If there's a way to make him stay still, I'd like that. I'll take a punish over a humiliating fall anytime.

Aside from that, there's not too much I would ask for, actually.

 

[Gryphon827]

Ultimate Bowser is easily the worst character to ever be put in a fighting game. The one thing that made him somewhat viable at all (up throw combos) got removed. the 2 other buffs he got are too minor to balance out one of the biggest nerfs in FGC history.

How he could be buffed:

• Give him his up-throw back.
• Give him a proper dair instead of an uncancellable stall-n-fall that leads to an instant death if used anywhere close to the edge of the stage.
• Make his f-smash a little faster, because it's easily reactable in 95% of situations it's used in.
• Make his side B actually work. The enemy is UNDER bowser, why does bowser die off the bottom FIRST?
• Edit: Apparently, if the enemy is at a lower percent than Bowser, THEY CONTROL THE DIRECTION THE SIDE B GOES. WHY WAS THIS ADDED?!

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Ultimate Bowser is easily the worst character to ever be put in a fighting game. The one thing that made him somewhat viable at all (up throw combos) got removed. the 2 other buffs he got are too minor to balance out one of the biggest nerfs in FGC history.

How he could be buffed:

• Give him his up-throw back.
• Give him a proper dair instead of an uncancellable stall-n-fall that leads to an instant death if used anywhere clode to the edge of the stage.
• Make his f-smash a little faster, because it's easily reactable in 95% of situations it's used in.
• Make his side B actually work. The enemy is UNDER bowser, why does bowser die off the bottom FIRST?

I agree that Bowser's old up throw should be back, but you can still combo up throw to up air at low/mid percents. But Bowser is still fine and viable. if you want to talk about a fighter being unviable, Little Mac says hi.

You basically hit the nail on the head, though. Everything you said is reasonable. I have to agree somewhat with the notion that the enemy should die first using Bowser's side B, but I guess it doesn't work that way for the same reason they nerfed Ganoncide: so it doesn't become the only option people use when both they and their opponent are at one stock.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Ultimate Bowser is easily the worst character to ever be put in a fighting game.

How can you say that when his son exists?

 

[Gryphon827]

How can you say that when his son exists?

Bowser is a lot worse than Junior.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Bowser is a lot worse than Junior.

I think most people would heavily disagree.

 

[ALiBi212]

They NEED to buff Inkling’s paint roller. Currently, when I roll opponents into the ground I only have 3 minutes until they escape, but I think they should be trapped in the ground for the entire rest of the match.

Joking aside,
I wish they would reduce the lag time on Pit’s arrows. I loved his arrows in Brawl, being able to pressure people like crazy, but in Sm4sh and Ultimate they are so much slower. Now, opponents jump over one arrow and they’re in my face again. If there were less lag after firing, at least I could quickly punish their rushdown. So much for a “heavenly” bow...

I have to agree somewhat with the notion that the enemy should die first using Bowser's side B, but I guess it doesn't work that way for the same reason they nerfed Ganoncide: so it doesn't become the only option people use when both they and their opponent are at one stock.

Why not make the enemy die first once they are over 120%? That way it’s a confirmed kill only when other moves would kill as well. This makes it no longer “cheap” to win with, as a smash attack would also get the job done. It would add a lot of fun and variety to those final stocks.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Bowser is a lot worse than Junior.

Uhh

No, I don't think so.

Why not make the enemy die first once they are over 120%? That way it’s a confirmed kill only when other moves would kill as well. This makes it no longer “cheap” to win with, as a smash attack would also get the job done. It would add a lot of fun and variety to those final stocks.

Like most final Smashes? ......that would actually make sense. Same for Ganon.

 

[link2702]

Ganoncide’s killing the enemy first again.
Ganon’s up air having the late lower hitbox again behind him+ more range overall and slightly faster. Flame choke having more range on ground. Wizard foot quake hitbox extending farther away from him again, plus doing more shield damage. Up b going slightly higher.

Marth jab popping people in the air again (not even a marth main but this was a hard nerf imo, he needs the old jab back.

Young link having slightly more kill power.

Belmonts up special going slightly higher.

 

[Cruelcumber]

- Where to begin. Make the character's special moves no longer have the ability to used against him. Skilled players can grab most of his fruits mid-air and throw them back at Pac-Man. His Power Pellet can be easily interrupted. Other characters can attack his Pac-Jump and easily exploit it. Lastly is his Fire Hydrant, the most notorious offender of his special moves. It's not hard for other characters to launch the hydrant themselves (and now break the water) to use agaisnt Pac-Man. Also have him less floaty in the air, and please give a couple of his attacks some actual kill power to them (I think his Fire Hydrant and F-Smash would be good ideas to buff a lot in damage and launching output). I know that Pac-Man as a fighter is supposed to focus on doing well in the hands of someone who excels at playing mindgames against opponents, but at the moment he just seems so easy to gimp.

 

[Sean²]

I'm actually curious. Have they ever buffed a recovery? I know they make speed, knockback, and damage changes on attacks, but has the dev team ever made a recovery go a longer distance in the past? Excluding Pac Man's trampoline no longer being a pocketable item. I feel like that's a line they've never crossed.

 

[Necro'lic]

I'm sorry, but a lot of the more recent comments seem to either want to buff a character's weakness, or just revert something from Smash 4. Weaknesses are there for a reason. It is to make the character interesting.

 

[link2702]

I'm sorry, but a lot of the more recent comments seem to either want to buff a character's weakness, or just revert something from Smash 4. Weaknesses are there for a reason. It is to make the character interesting.

Some of the “weaknesses” given to characters went a little too far.

they realized this with little mac in the transition from 4 to ultimate, it’s why he can now use up b after his side special in the air to help his recovery.

Sometimes they make an intentional weakness a little TOO crippling for a character, where their advantages just don’t make up for it. In these situations it’s better to give the characters a slight buff, where these weaknesses are still very much there, but they don’t completely cripple the character and/or a particular move.

 

[MarioMeteor]

- Can his up tilt have a hitbox? Please? Why can Mario be inside someone’s character model and still whiff an up tilt?
- See above. Also, make him a heavyweight. Clearly he’s supposed to play like one, so why not just go all the way with it?
- Do something about neutral air. I can’t put up with another game of people falling out of neutral air.
- I don’t know if this technically counts as a buff, but make him not objectively inferior to Chrom.
- Bigger hitboxes. If you’re fighting anybody with decent range as Jigglypuff you have to work exhaustingly hard to do anything meaningful.
- Fire Wolf needs to not be absolutely pathetic. At least revert it back to Brawl distance, even if you have to increase the startup.
/ - Why does Samus still not have a jab? What did she do to deserve this treatment?
/// - After a certain percent Dancing Blade and Double-Edge Dance just stop working. Fix that, please.

 

[Necro'lic]

Some of the “weaknesses” given to characters went a little too far.

they realized this with little mac in the transition from 4 to ultimate, it’s why he can now use up b after his side special in the air to help his recovery.

Sometimes they make an intentional weakness a little TOO crippling for a character, where their advantages just don’t make up for it. In these situations it’s better to give the characters a slight buff, where these weaknesses are still very much there, but they don’t completely cripple the character and/or a particular move.

While I definitely get Little Mac's shtick was too far (I even made up a rework thread that made his grabs and aerials not completely useless), some other one's here are just ridiculous. If you want to buff a character, buff what they are good at already so they are specialized a bit. I doubt anyone would say Young Link has so little kill power that that weakness outweighs the strengths of having a lot of projectiles, being disjointed, and being agile overall. Oh, and Fire arrows.

I think the only time you should nerf a character's weakness is if it causes them to not have a usual tool in their arsenal to deal with general threats like rushdown, zoners, high defense, shields, etc. And only some much.

Meanwhile, buffing the strengths of the characters further allows them to fulfill their own niches and identities without overlapping too hard with other fighters.

 

[Swordmaster102]

Ryu. He is completely irrelevant with Ken in the game, plus they just overall nerfed him between games while about all others got buffs. Ryu’s air game is weak and that is what he lacks. They need to reduce his n-air from 35 frames to 27 frames (which happens to be sm4sh n-air, and is the same as Ken’s). This won’t make him as good as Ken, but it will help him in a lot of ways. Give him back his u-air drag downs, n-air to d-air, etc.

There’s a lot I could go on about Ryu, but I will leave it with just this.

Also, I pray that the short-hop aerial tech will be set to optional in the controller settings. It prevents frame perfect full-hop aerials.

 

[Sean²]

Bowser is a lot worse than Junior.

Bowser's up tilt would like a word with you - have fun getting back down if you get hit into the air by him

I'm sorry, but a lot of the more recent comments seem to either want to buff a character's weakness, or just revert something from Smash 4. Weaknesses are there for a reason. It is to make the character interesting.

First of all, don't apologize for expressing your opinion. Second, yes, this has kind of migrated from a minor "buff wishlist" to a "plssss make my character broken and SS tier wishlist." Another example of patch culture. But I don't think we're packaging this up neatly into an envelope and sending it directly to Sakurai, either.

Some of the “weaknesses” given to characters went a little too far.

they realized this with little mac in the transition from 4 to ultimate, it’s why he can now use up b after his side special in the air to help his recovery.

Sometimes they make an intentional weakness a little TOO crippling for a character, where their advantages just don’t make up for it. In these situations it’s better to give the characters a slight buff, where these weaknesses are still very much there, but they don’t completely cripple the character and/or a particular move.

What's funny is Little Mac is actually worse off now for that "buff" LOL

And you mentioned Marth in your previous post. Come on, Marth is finally just a regular old, solid, high tier character for once. They finally balanced him out a bit. He doesn't need anything given or taken.

/// - After a certain percent Dancing Blade and Double-Edge Dance just stop working. Fix that, please.

God, no. Please no. I praise Sakurai every time I get hit with that at a higher percent and fall out. They made it easier to do the inputs for it, that's plenty for the most annoying punish move in the game. It doesn't need to be any better.

 

[MarioMeteor]

God, no. Please no. I praise Sakurai every time I get hit with that at a higher percent and fall out. They made it easier to do the inputs for it, that's plenty for the most annoying punish move in the game. It doesn't need to be any better.

It’s not like it’s better than it was before. Whether or not you find it annoying, the fact that it doesn’t work is inexcusable.

 

[Pski]

- buff his weight to be just below the superheavy tier and make his recovery go in all directions like the spacies
- both just need a small buff to air speed and landing lag
- start the match with levin sword and bring back the sm4sh down throw angle
- not really a buff but more of a fix, but people shouldn't be able to fall out of Fsmash. It cheaps you out of a well earned KO on a lot of characters
- mechakoopas should do something besides just give up when they hit shield. also maybe decrease the startup on side B and aerials, and make his grab range longer to compensate for how slow it is.

 

[Sean²]

It’s not like it’s better than it was before. Whether or not you find it annoying, the fact that it doesn’t work is inexcusable.

Regardless of my feelings. You act like it's useless. The characters with Dancing Blade are still high and top tier regardless of whether it works the way you want it to or not. The rest of their kits are fast, disjointed, and hit hard. I think it makes sense that at higher percents that you don't get a free autocombo out of it.

What percent does it stop working? I don't play any FE characters by any means, but I play a Marth player regularly. Usually when I fall out of it, it's because I'm further away from Marth when he tries to use it, not because I'm at any certain percent.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Regardless of my feelings.

Your feelings are literally the only reason we’re even talking about this.

You act like it's useless.

I never said that. I act like I expect to be able to land every hit of a multi-hit move like a reasonable person would.

The characters with Dancing Blade are still high and top tier regardless of whether it works the way you want it to or not.

Now you’re talking about tiers in the first month of the game’s release?

The rest of their kits are fast, disjointed, and hit hard. I think it makes sense that at higher percents that you don't get a free autocombo out of it.

You can’t actually think that a move not serving its intended purpose makes sense. Maybe you think it’s fair, but if you think it’s sensible then I have no further words...

 

[TheTrueBrawler]

The rest of their kits are fast, disjointed, and hit hard. I think it makes sense that at higher percents that you don't get a free autocombo out of it.

Multi hit moves not connecting into each other is one thing I hate in all five Smash games. If you land a hit, you should be rewarded with actually outputting decent damage, but instead, it punishes you by allowing the opponent to hit you back. It's not just dancing blade that suffers from this though. Many multi hit moves have had a history of not connecting, and not all of them were fixed in the most recent game either.

If a move is not working like it's supposed to, then it needs to be fixed. Just because this one happens to be part of kits belonging to higher tier fighters doesn't make it any different than things like Samus's Jab or Link's Forward Smash.

 

[Sean²]

Your feelings are literally the only reason we’re even talking about this.

I never said that. I act like I expect to be able to land every hit of a multi-hit move like a reasonable person would.

Now you’re talking about tiers in the first month of the game’s release?

You can’t actually think that a move not serving its intended purpose makes sense. Maybe you think it’s fair, but if you think it’s sensible then I have no further words...

Thanks for picking apart my post and ignoring the main points. I asked what percent you fall out of it. If you don't know, that's fine. If it's something like 100% of the cast falls out at <20%, then that's stupid. But if they're falling out at 100+%? that is sensible. It's a multi hit move, that involves multiple inputs. It's not a single attack. You can stop at any time.

I played Smash 4 Duck Hunt. Everyone could fall out out of the multi-hit portion of any of his smash attacks at any time. 0% or 180%. Didn't matter. If you didn't score that final hit (the only one with any reasonable knockback), they might just jump right out. That's an example of a multi hit move that was only one input. That was something that really sucked for him, because if they fell out, he was forced to finish the attack animation regardless. And they got a free hit out of it usually. I guess an Ultimate example would be Falco's rapid jab or nair. I can charge Bowser's Fsmash in the middle of any of these moves and hit him for it. That's stupid.

I know you never said that it was useless, but your verbiage suggested something close to it. Maybe I intentionally exaggerated for added flavor, but I can't read your mind so I can only construe "The fact that it doesn't work" in so many ways.

And I'm using tiers as a way of expressing that a character is beyond good. Vocabulary of terms like top tier, high tier, etc has transcended past the objective use for it. It's more recently being used as an adjective for saying something is great, with a high possibility of being better than all the others. Unless English isn't your first language, I feel like there should be no need to explain this. People have been using it this way for years now, online and off. I'm saying with the FE clones big, disjointed hitboxes, fast groundspeed, fast, strong attacks, the ability to confirm into kills at <80%....I could go on and on. These are the makings for a really good character. And those good characters usually end up being...high tier! Yeah, I think making full tier lists a month after release is kind of stupid. But you can tell which characters are already fantastic and which ones may need help. That's the point of this thread, I believe. I can't just drop in and confidently say something like "Yeah - Toon Link's mid tier!". But I feel like I can also drop in and say that Lucina is high tier with moderate confidence, if you want to use "tier" in the objective way.

I guess to conclude, I think the FE clones are good as they are. I think they need no buffs, fixes, or nerfs. Up to you if you want to have "further words".

Multi hit moves not connecting into each other is one thing I hate in all five Smash games. If you land a hit, you should be rewarded with actually outputting decent damage, but instead, it punishes you by allowing the opponent to hit you back. It's not just dancing blade that suffers from this though. Many multi hit moves have had a history of not connecting, and not all of them were fixed in the most recent game either.

If a move is not working like it's supposed to, then it needs to be fixed. Just because this one happens to be part of kits belonging to higher tier fighters doesn't make it any different than things like Samus's Jab or Link's Forward Smash.

I guess, see what I posted above. Some things are stupid, like Smash 4 Duck Hunt's smashes basically being a death trap for even attempting them in most cases. He was stuck in the animation till it completed. If someone shields or is too high of a percent to continue all 4 hits of Dancing Blade, then you can stop before the final hit to minimize the punish window.

And multihit moves have always been a trouble area for the Smash devs. I agree. In 64, they were too good and destroyed shield. In Melee, they were mostly useless. (I can't remember how they were in Brawl, I only remember MK's Tornado). In Smash 4, they were borderline too good again.

I'll admit, I hate rapid jabs with a passion. I think if you're going to have a garbage one like Falco's, they should all be that way and everyone should have a choice between a 2/3 hit jab or the rapid jab.

 

[pH1988]

I'd like to see maybe just some damage buffs for Peach/Daisy. Their kill moves are pretty limited and still takes some work if allowed to go stale. I understand they are technical characters but they are weaker than even Brawl.

 

[Crooked Crow]

These are my suggestions:

: Allow her Zair to function how it did in Brawl- it was perfect then. SH back low to the ground, and throw out Zair so that it can pressure shields and be used as a reliable zoning tool. I think the angle it comes out at currently feels a little awkward, but not too difficult.

: Give his lasers less landing lag. You can't SHDL anymore and this makes his neutral feel sort of clunky.

: His Specials are rather underwhelming, give UpTilt a better hitbox too.

: Her DownB is too easily navigated around, and thus not a reliable zoning tool.

: Duck Hunt is not in the best spot right now. He struggles against fast, rushdown characters, and can't camp or zone against characters such as Young Link or Mega Man. Side B projectile is too slow, and doesn't have particularly impressive pressuring potential. His Down B is easily killed, rendering them useless. His UpSmash and DownSmash have no range and I'm pretty sure you can SDI out of them, too. I think you should buff Duck Hunt's specials, and his range.

 

[TheTrueBrawler]

I guess, see what I posted above. Some things are stupid, like Smash 4 Duck Hunt's smashes basically being a death trap for even attempting them in most cases. He was stuck in the animation till it completed. If someone shields or is too high of a percent to continue all 4 hits of Dancing Blade, then you can stop before the final hit to minimize the punish window.

And multihit moves have always been a trouble area for the Smash devs. I agree. In 64, they were too good and destroyed shield. In Melee, they were mostly useless. (I can't remember how they were in Brawl, I only remember MK's Tornado). In Smash 4, they were borderline too good again.

I'll admit, I hate rapid jabs with a passion. I think if you're going to have a garbage one like Falco's, they should all be that way and everyone should have a choice between a 2/3 hit jab or the rapid jab.

What's the point of using the move if at high percents it deals less than 3% damage? If someone shields, you should be stopping anyways, but if it hits, the game shouldn't put them in a position far from where the next hit is going to be. If you land the attack, you should receive the full reward for doing so. The same should apply to all Jab combos except in the case where a rapid Jab is held for an overly extensive amount of time.

I don't know too much about Duck Hunt specifics, but if his Smash Attacks are actually connecting into each other, than the game is doing it right. They should connect into each other. They shouldn't deal an obscene amount of damage, break shields, or anything like that. They should just hit into each other if the first hit is successful. It is also one of the cases where the opponent can't cancel out of it if shielded which increases predictability. Duck Hunt smash attacks should not be causing any major issues in terms of balance (at least not in Smash Ultimate).

 

[Nagol]

Buff throws across the board so that characters have at least one throw that leads to either another hit or combo into later percents. This is a buff that is absolutely needed to prevent turtling at high percents. Currently if you are playing a character that has 0 true follow ups at higher percents sitting in shield and taking percent can be a very effective strategy. This strategy is great for trading percent as you wait to die but is just boring and not fun.

 

[Fell God]

I'm seeing a lot of bad takes so I'll add two very good suggestions, one questionable suggestion, and one very controversial one.


: Ganoncide kills victim first again and also Flame Choke can never be teched and the ground variant has super armor
: Levin tilts so ground attacks are actually good
: Belly armor on down tilt
: Dair sourspot is a semi spike so it's not useless

 

[Swordmaster102]

: Ganoncide kills victim first again and also Flame Choke can never be teched and the ground variant has super armor

I can respect putting super armor on flame choke, but making it where you cannot tech is a bit far imo. It would become one of the most annoying attacks in the game along with the super armor. I would say only one could be applied, either super armor, or no tech, but absolutely not both.

 

[MarioMeteor]

: Ganoncide kills victim first again and also Flame Choke can never be teched and the ground variant has super armor

Why stop there? It should also be able to grab you anywhere on screen, and then after it does that it should permanently delete the character from the game.

 

[Deleted member]

You made this because of my nerf wishlist, didn't you?

I don't see who deserves a buff besides maybe Chrom. His air speed and recovery shouldn't be at odds with each other.

Everyone else is either good or too good. My nerf wishlist still stands.

 

[R O F L]

These are just all thing that've bothered me when playing.

- Make Side B have less endleg.
- Make Side B a combo tool again and make Down B a lot faster.
- Buff Airspeed and make Dimensional Cape's non-attack variant go farther and have a lot less endlag and if he starts it on the ground, it shouldn't put him in a fall state.
- Make sing cancel-able near halfway through.
- Buff airspeed, greatly increase range on inhale, make inhale able to spit out anything, make copys last longer, make Dthrow-Dsmash a kill confirm again, and make his Dattack keep it's powerful hit on the lingering hitbox.
- Make his FSmash have less endlag.
- Make Dthrow have less endlag.
- Make Fthrow harder to break out of.
- Make him able to Side B again offstage if hit.
- Make Dthrow always have a true followup, even if it's just jab.
- Make desyncs easier.