Buff wishlist!

[Xebenkeck]

Please bare in mind they told us they would balance based on elite smash win %.

I would venture to guess Kirby, Mewtwo, Rosalina, Corrin and Diddy had the lowest win% in elite smash this past patch.

It is a little annoying because we don’t have access to their information so we don’t have a clue as to how characters are doing and which will get buffs/nerfs.

I would venture to guess someone like ddd will never get a buff because I’ll bet his elite smash win % is relatively high because he is significantly better in a online environment then offline tourney play.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Just want to point out that they may not necessarily balance only around win rates. A good character could have a below average win rate because of their skill ceiling. They will most likely take picks rates into account as well, as they could see who gets more use and who doesn't, then buff unused characters accordingly.

And they may not necessarily balance exclusively based on online, as they've shown in the past that they've paid attention to the meta on tournament play.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

I agree with King Dedede getting buffed

This is what I'd do:

• Jab 1 start up reduced frame 10 > 7.
• F-Tilt increased Knockback Growth, making it a more viable kill move.
• Fair can short-hop auto-cancel &/or reduce landing lag from 18 > 12 frames.
• B-Throw slightly increased Knockback Growth & launches at a better angle for killing. Either more horizontal or vertical, it doesn't matter for me.
• Something big on Jet Hammer. I don't know just something to make it worth using more.
  
  

 

[TheSkillMythos]

This is what I'd do:

• Jab 1 start up reduced frame 10 > 7.
• F-Tilt increased Knockback Growth, making it a more viable kill move.
• Fair can short-hop auto-cancel, or reduce landing lag from 18 > 12 frames.
• B-Throw slightly increased Knockback Growth & launches at a better angle for killing. Either more horizontal or vertical, it doesn't matter for me.
• Something big on Jet Hammer. I don't know just something to make it worth using more.

I think that Jet Hammer should do more damage, knockback, and have slightly greater range. We should also be able to store the charge. Whenever Dedede actually attacks with Jet Hammer, the buffer between him swinging the hammer and the release of the special button should be nonexistent.

I don't use King Dedede that much, but I've use him sometimes when I am doing 1v1s with my friends.

EDIT: Thank you MrGameguycolor for the like

 

[MrGameguycolor]

I think that Jet Hammer should do more damage, knockback, and have slightly greater range. We should also be able to store the charge. Whenever Dedede actually attacks with Jet Hammer, the buffer between him swinging the hammer and the release of the special button should be nonexistent.

I don't use King Dedede that much, but I've use him sometimes when I am doing 1v1s with my friends.

EDIT: Thank you MrGameguycolor for the like

That could work sort of like DK's Giant Punch.
Nice.
Only problem is that I don't think the balance team would reprogram a move that much, but I could wrong.

You're welcome. I appreciate good balance changes :D

 

[TheSkillMythos]

Another buff I want is for Meta Knight. I think that whenever he is doing his Down Special (teleport), the initial buffer between the button press and the actual teleport should be reduced. Also, if he is moving full-speed in a direction while teleporting, as long as he doesn't attack at the end of the teleport, he should keep his momentum.

I know that I am somewhat biased towards Meta Knight because he is my main, and my favorite character from Kirby, it's just that I think a recovery move that doesn't deal damage shouldn't leave him that vulnerable. I know that there are less than 5 frames for the teleport exit (unless you are attacking), it's just that a skilled player could attack you in the brief moment that you can't move.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Another buff I want is for Meta Knight. I think that whenever he is doing his Down Special (teleport), the initial buffer between the button press and the actual teleport should be reduced. Also, if he is moving full-speed in a direction while teleporting, as long as he doesn't attack at the end of the teleport, he should keep his momentum.

I know that I am somewhat biased towards Meta Knight because he is my main, and my favorite character from Kirby, it's just that I think a recovery move that doesn't deal damage shouldn't leave him that vulnerable. I know that there are less than 5 frames for the teleport exit (unless you are attacking), it's just that a skilled player could attack you in the brief moment that you can't move.

I agree, it's likely just how the game buffers inputs. (Similar to how it buffers rolling)
More of a quality of life change if anything.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

This is what I'd do:

• Jab 1 start up reduced frame 10 > 7.
• F-Tilt increased Knockback Growth, making it a more viable kill move.
• Fair can short-hop auto-cancel, or reduce landing lag from 18 > 12 frames.
• B-Throw slightly increased Knockback Growth & launches at a better angle for killing. Either more horizontal or vertical, it doesn't matter for me.
• Something big on Jet Hammer. I don't know just something to make it worth using more.

As someone who has played around with Dedede's Smash Wii U moveset, I can say a few things about those suggestions.

• Jab 1 should probably hit on frame 5.
• The f-tilt was made to deal multiple hits, so the KBG increase would have to be implemented onto the final hit.
• The b-throw's total damage dealt and KBG all need to be considered when improving its KO viability.
• If a fully charged Jet Hammer has tolerable knockback statistics, maybe it would be used more frequently. I've never really understood the idea of a fully charged hit being less powerful than a hit that's almost fully charged anyway.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Jab 1 on Dedede should have either a frame 5 or 6 startup considering how weak it is. We should also be able to easily cancel out of jab 2 to either d-tilt or grab once more.

Dedede should be able to angle f-tilt. That way he could have a decent anti air/ledgetrapping move that isn't a projectile and can't be spammed (like Wolf's).

 

[TheSkillMythos]

Jab 1 on Dedede should have either a frame 5 or 6 startup considering how weak it is. We should also be able to easily cancel out of jab 2 to either d-tilt or grab once more.

Dedede should be able to angle f-tilt. That way he could have a decent anti air/ledgetrapping move that isn't a projectile and can't be spammed (like Wolf's).

I think that King Dedede's neutrals should have less button-release buffers in general.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

I think that King Dedede's neutrals should have less button-release buffers in general.

Especially considering how hard it is to link any of his grounded neutrals into another attack. Most of his combos rely on n-air or f-air, which is sad.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

While on the subject of Dedede, maybe increase the damage threshold for his Gordos to around 5%. That way, they can't be reflected back by very low damaging hitboxes.

 

[MattVRox0525]

Meta Knight needs every possible buff
We need Brawl HD

This thread is dead but
Little Mac and Bowser Jr. got buffs

 

[Xelrog]

His side special still isn't usable after being hit tho'

RIP

 

[MattVRox0525]

His side special still isn't usable after being hit tho'

RIP

Junior still loses the car when he gets hit out of his recovery
Why did it exist in the first place
Also RIP Pichu lol

 

[Ze Diglett]

Still no Dedede buffs (I swear that guy's gonna be bottom 10 again by the end of this game if he keeps getting ignored like he has), but nerfing the top tiers across the board and buffing some of the weaker ones is a good start. Can't help but wish the dev team didn't expend as much of their time and energy giving minor buffs to jabs, though... (And in all the jab buffs we saw this patch, they somehow missed the jab that's needed buffs the most for ages now )

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Based on the list of changes, Dr. Mario got absolutely nothing out of the update; his current mobility is just not right.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Literally, just do something about Zelda's grab. Her dash grab is so bad it's literlly offensive to look at. No range, Frame 12. A person can sit in shield and it's never just "just grab bro". Alternately, just give her the same run speed as her initial dashes.

 

[MattVRox0525]

Please.
Wario is too bad. Buff him.
Jk lmao
Seriously though, they completely ignored Ridley and Kirby. Why? It’s like they’re aiming for these characters to be bad. Jeez, they took to buffing jabs across the board before they buffed these characters this patch. And they didn’t even fix Samus’ jab.
Although, I commend the dev team for actually nerfing Wolf and Pichu, while buffing Mac and Junior. This time around, despite their slight shortcomings this patch, the dev team seems to know what theyre doing, so fortunately this game is going to be much more balanced than the mess that was Sm4sh (no offense, loved that one). I’m excited to see what they could do in the future with balance patches.

Also they killed the trend
Leaf Shield didn’t get nerfed this patch

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Is it bad if I said that the Luma's HP nerf could be a detriment to Rosalina?

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Please.
Wario is too bad. Buff him.
Jk lmao
Seriously though, they completely ignored Ridley and Kirby. Why? It’s like they’re aiming for these characters to be bad. Jeez, they took to buffing jabs across the board before they buffed these characters this patch. And they didn’t even fix Samus’ jab.
Although, I commend the dev team for actually nerfing Wolf and Pichu, while buffing Mac and Junior. This time around, despite their slight shortcomings this patch, the dev team seems to know what theyre doing, so fortunately this game is going to be much more balanced than the mess that was Sm4sh (no offense, loved that one). I’m excited to see what they could do in the future with balance patches.

Also they killed the trend
Leaf Shield didn’t get nerfed this patch

Always remember that the last time a Kirby character got any major buffs people cried Sakurai bias immediately. For the most part it's been a downhill string of nerfs since Brawl (except for Ultimate Dedede I guess?).

I'm also frustrated about the Pichu nerfs. The damage Pichu deals to itself isn't going to fix the problem (the hurtbox adjustment helps though). It's really Pichu's insane killing power and combo potential people are talking about.

 

[MattVRox0525]

Always remember that the last time a Kirby character got any major buffs people cried Sakurai bias immediately. For the most part it's been a downhill string of nerfs since Brawl (except for Ultimate Dedede I guess?).

I'm also frustrated about the Pichu nerfs. The damage Pichu deals to itself isn't going to fix the problem (the hurtbox adjustment helps though). It's really Pichu's insane killing power and combo potential people are talking about.

Well, they weakened her F-Tilt, so that’s a decent start. Also, Pichu doing more damage to itself makes it a bit riskier to perform these combos, since B-Air deals more self damage (for Lightning Loops).
That’s all I’ve got, you have a point on everything else.

 

[GhostM]

Recent patch buffed Falcon, but they need to tweak his initial dash to be a little more longer and faster than Link’s, Rockcrocking removed because you shouldn’t be punished for just landing your recovery move on an opponent, and his turnaround speed tweaked to be faster.

 

[MattVRox0525]

Recent patch buffed Falcon, but they need to tweak his initial dash to be a little more longer and faster than Link’s, Rockcrocking removed because you shouldn’t be punished for just landing your recovery move on an opponent, and his turnaround speed tweaked to be faster.

Yes it did. I’ve seen Fatality mention these changes in a video and they do seem necessary. I’m not a Falcon expert so idk all of his frame data and whatnot but I do know that the Cap has flaws. Please, Sakurai. Bring back the hype boi.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Remove rockcrocking, yes.
The rest should stay the same, hype character or not. Everyone needs flaws.

 

[MattVRox0525]

Remove rockcrocking, yes.
The rest should stay the same, hype character or not. Everyone needs flaws.

Well, to be fair, I said they SEEM necessary, not that they ARE necessary, to the point where Falcon will be the worst character if they’re not fixed. I understand your point and you’re absolutely correct, however, Captain Falcon’s extremely long turn-around animation hurts a character like him more than it should. At least a couple of frames should be just fine. But now here’s the question to be asked:
How can they fix rockcrocking?

 

[TheTrueBrawler]

I want Snake's Land Mine from Brawl to come back. His new Down Smash is a double kick with respectable attack power, but Up Tilt is more favorable in my opinion, so I rarely find myself using this.

 

[HeavyMaster]

I would like if Bowser Jr. wasn't complete trash

Just kidding, i'm over-exaggerating. But i would LOVE to see Bowser Jr. get buffed, because I feel like he doesn't have any impactful moves. Nothing he does can be called good, doesn't have much combos, doesn't hit really hard, his projectiles are lackluster, and basically everything that's already been said about him.

But now here’s the question to be asked:
How can they fix rockcrocking?

Maybe if Falcon (and Ganon) could turn around when he lands his recovery so he bounces off towards the stage and his enemies towards the blastzone and not risk getting rockcrocked. I'm not sure if it would be overpowered or not, but that's the only way i can think of that could fix rockcrocking

 

[Xelrog]

Maybe if Falcon (and Ganon) could turn around when he lands his recovery so he bounces off towards the stage and his enemies towards the blastzone and not risk getting rockcrocked. I'm not sure if it would be overpowered or not, but that's the only way i can think of that could fix rockcrocking

That, or just don't allow teching for a few frames after the enemy is launched.

 

[TheTrueBrawler]

I would like if Bowser Jr. wasn't complete trash

Just kidding, i'm over-exaggerating. But i would LOVE to see Bowser Jr. get buffed, because I feel like he doesn't have any impactful moves. Nothing he does can be called good, doesn't have much combos, doesn't hit really hard, his projectiles are lackluster, and basically everything that's already been said about him.

He needs more power to his moves in general. If his projectiles were better such as turning Clown Cannon into a chargeable move and/or reducing lag frames on his Mecahkoopa, he would have the potential to keep his enemies away from him.

 

[Kiligar]

Up Tilt: Make it consistently combo into Uair
U-Air:Increase KBG slightly and make start up faster
Side Special: FIX EVERYTHING. Ok, reflecting a projectile should have an actual returning hitbox and/or less lag on projectile reflection. Less landing lag. Move shouldn’t be that weak in the air, make it a bit stronger. Move shouldn’t clank all the time with random attacks or fail to sense an opponent when they dash attack(Joker). Move shouldn’t have 60 years of end-lag offstage, slightly less, it’s not supposed to be Ike side-Special. Move shouldn’t lose super-armor when connecting with an enemy hurtbox. Move shouldn’t have basically 0 aerial hurtbox detecting frames. Move shouldn’t have so much lag that when an opponent jumps in the opposite direction of the arm behind your back they can land, turn around, dash over and grab you while you are unable to move an inch. Not much, just a little. Move should have more super armor later in the move, when connecting with stage horizontally from a certain distance, it’s a free ‘two frame’. Move should have super armor earlier, don’t like getting hit while the arm is already out and I predicted them to attack.
-Down Special. Slightly reduce end lag. Make intangible on first three frames so it serves as a better combo breaker.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Well, to be fair, I said they SEEM necessary, not that they ARE necessary, to the point where Falcon will be the worst character if they’re not fixed. I understand your point and you’re absolutely correct, however, Captain Falcon’s extremely long turn-around animation hurts a character like him more than it should. At least a couple of frames should be just fine. But now here’s the question to be asked:
How can they fix rockcrocking?

They should alter the angle Falcon jump from the opponent away: Instead of jumping away from the stage, he should jump towards the stage.

 

[MattVRox0525]

That, or just don't allow teching for a few frames after the enemy is launched.

Maybe if Falcon (and Ganon) could turn around when he lands his recovery so he bounces off towards the stage and his enemies towards the blastzone and not risk getting rockcrocked. I'm not sure if it would be overpowered or not, but that's the only way i can think of that could fix rockcrocking

They should alter the angle Falcon jump from the opponent away: Instead of jumping away from the stage, he should jump towards the stage.

These are all fine ideas (especially HeavyMaster’s) and I would like to throw my hat into the ring. They could perhaps shave a few frames off of the end, as least as many as they can to make Falcon able to react before the enemy can reach him. Either that, or give him armor of some sort.

 

[HeavyMaster]

These are all fine ideas (especially HeavyMaster’s) and I would like to throw my hat into the ring. They could perhaps shave a few frames off of the end, as least as many as they can to make Falcon able to react before the enemy can reach him. Either that, or give him armor of some sort.

I think shaving frames or making him able to turn is a better solution than giving him armor, unpunishable recoveries are not something i'd call interactive (in my honest opinion). See joker's arsene recovery, Pichu's, Pikachu's and Palutena's recoveries. Again, just my opinion.

 

[MattVRox0525]

I think shaving frames or making him able to turn is a better solution than giving him armor, unpunishable recoveries are not something i'd call interactive (in my honest opinion). See joker's arsene recovery, Pichu's, Pikachu's and Palutena's recoveries. Again, just my opinion.

Makes sense

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I would like if Bowser Jr. wasn't complete trash

Just kidding, i'm over-exaggerating. But i would LOVE to see Bowser Jr. get buffed, because I feel like he doesn't have any impactful moves. Nothing he does can be called good, doesn't have much combos, doesn't hit really hard, his projectiles are lackluster, and basically everything that's already been said about him.

The sad part about Clown Cannon is the fact that despite being powerful when fully charged, it has too much start-up lag, and fighters with reflectors have more than enough time to send the cannonball right back at Bowser Jr.. The Piercing Cannon custom special from Smash 3DS / Wii U was less laggy, but you do end up sacrificing KO power as a drawback.

 

[Xelrog]

I think shaving frames or making him able to turn is a better solution than giving him armor

Who suggested giving them armor?

 

[HeavyMaster]

It was MattVRox0525

The sad part about Clown Cannon is the fact that despite being powerful when fully charged, it has too much start-up lag, and fighters with reflectors have more than enough time to send the cannonball right back at Bowser Jr.. The Piercing Cannon custom special from Smash 3DS / Wii U was less laggy, but you do end up sacrificing KO power as a drawback.

Yeah, even with custom moves, his neutral b was pretty bad.

And to be fair, i think his mechakoopa shouldn't be reflectable. And please bring back that it blows up on shields like in smash 4. It's really sad that all it takes is a milli-second of shielding and his main stage control tool is gone.

 

[Xelrog]

Don't mind me, I'm blind.

 

[papa_tetris]

Not gonna lie. Puff Bair not turning you around would be nice. Also I think SideB should take you farther on the ground. Then grounded SideB would be useful.