Brawlplusery Official Codeset 5.0 RC1 Discussion

[Alphatron]

I think the annoyance came at how easy the combos were to do and how much time you had to follow up.

 

[FrozenHobo]

so, wait, which set had the fixed skyworld? cape's build doesn't have it (at least not the build i'm using).

 

[JCaesar]

I main the character who suffers the most hitstun out of the cast, and is also the most vulnerable to (non-CG) throw combos.

What does that even mean?

As ROB, I can much more easily combo out of my dthrow on Falcon than I can on Jiggs. I don't understand your argument.

 

[shongotskills]

veril mains cf now. im 100% sure with that statment

 

[iLink]

Multi-hit moves like Pit's uair should require an input for each hit, it's too easy the way it is now.

Your bias is horrifically obvious.

You want zss' auto jab back but make pit's uair have multiple inputs? Think about that for a second

 

[JCaesar]

iLink, I think he was being facetious...

 

[GHNeko]

And this is why we need standards on everything. We have no idea where to set the line for certain things, even if the line is arbitrary. :/

There has to be a line somewhere. Every game has some sort of arbitrary line for certain things.

We need to find that line and make it a standard.

or something.

 

[Shadic]

Like what? 256 lines? No hitbox changes?

We plow through those lines when given the option.

 

[MK26]

/me agrees with shadic

 

[GHNeko]

Exactly.

When we get the option, we disregard previous barriers and just do more ****.

We've gotta stop somewhere.

As I've said before, "Too much of anything is always a bad thing"

This applies to changes and ****.

Standards plz.

 

[MK26]

:<
:<
:<
:<

 

[GHNeko]

*facepalm*

never-****ing-mind.

 

[RPGsFTW]

I would like to hear about, or rather just play with, the extra changes in Cape's final set?

So really soon I should expect it? Yeshhhh!

 

[Shadic]

Exactly.
When we get the option, we disregard previous barriers and just do more ****.
We've gotta stop somewhere.
As I've said before, "Too much of anything is always a bad thing"
This applies to changes and ****.
Standards plz.

Once it starts actually getting worse, people will say something. The sets have (For the most part) gotten consistently better. You greatly underestimate how much people like to complain.

And if you WBRoomers don't listen to the complaining.. Well then, that's your fault.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

Exactly.

When we get the option, we disregard previous barriers and just do more ****.

We've gotta stop somewhere.

As I've said before, "Too much of anything is always a bad thing"

This applies to changes and ****.

Standards plz.

this is funny coming from the guy who wanted the marth fsmash size increase

 

[GHNeko]

that wasnt me and i had no part in that.

gg with your assumptions.


i would never increase marth fsmash size because it was fine as it was and never had any problems other than some people noticing it didnt fit the animation.

Once it starts actually getting worse, people will say something. The sets have (For the most part) gotten consistently better. You greatly underestimate how much people like to complain.

And if you WBRoomers don't listen to the complaining.. Well then, that's your fault.

if anything we listening to complaining from the general public too much imo.

but if we dont we get hit with slander and accusations of elitism and SBR-syndrome and what the **** ever dictator like insults people come up with

lose/lose obv

 

[Alphatron]

Community input is only worth something after the community has settled into it. Look at Ness vB change for example.

Neko, where do you want the barrier to be drawn? Everyone has their own standards and it isn't too uncommon to get change happy. "I can change textures so let's change them all! Even if some of the ones I put in weren't all that great!"

For auto jabs, jabs in any game were never about exact precision. So long as the auto jab removal doesn't make jabs hard to do, I'm fine.

Yeah, I main a character who doesn't have a repeating jab so my opinion can't count for much. Personally, the "hold A to jab" function should only be left in for jab third hits that actually repeat. Like Dedede, Kirby, Falco, etc.

 

[GHNeko]

Where do I want the line to be drawn? It depends. There are multiple issues and places where a line can be drawn. You can't draw a straight line for everything. I have ideas, but I'd have to double check everything else to see if everything is legit, and if not, see if an exception should be made or if something must be changed. And even then, a lot of these are bias and complete opinion and subjective beyond believe.

the whole concept is based off of ideas and opinions. There is no robust system that can be used as a definite guideline for this kinda thing.

Maybe it's just wishful thinking in the end.

All i know is that a bunch of things are being put into this game and the filter could use some smaller holes, which fortunately, is happening, slowly, but surely.

Catalyst was that whole ness fiasco.

 

[iLink]

Finally got around to trying cape's set and I'm really liking it. Here is a bit of feedback.

- I like the new decay system

- Was everything sped up? It could have been that I played vbrawl right before trying this so it could just be me imagining it

- The reduced hitstun works very well with the no AD during tumble.

Bowser:
- Felt more or less the same.

CF:
- Like the new dthrow
- The fsmash slowdown makes it kind of overshadowed by dsmash, a stutter step is the only thing that would actually hit.
- It was kind of weird not ko'ing with uair when I usually do lol but I could get used to it.

Charizard:
- Didn't try him for more then 2 matches but I liked his new glide.

Falco:
- Toned down overall but still a solid character.

Fox:
- It could just be me but I was finding I couldn't use the JC shine for any good reason. JC shine > Usmash wasn't working for me anymore.

Ganon:
- More or less the same

Ike:
- Same

Ivy:
- Didn't try so no input

Jigglypuff:
- REALLY didn't need the bair range increase. It was already a good quick wall.
- Found more use for fsmash

Kirby:
- Why was nair changed? It's back to being useless

Link:
- All good here, his bthrow was interesting.

Lucario:
- I was having a lot of trouble with the lack of auto snap upb. If I tried to grab the ledge perfectly horizontal, he would tumble and go into a helpless state. It forced me to always recover high.
- Uthrow is fine

Luigi:
- I miss the priority on his downb but I can live without it

Mario:
- Had a lot easier time getting KO's

Marth:
- The reduced size on his Usmash was throwing me off but I probably just need more time to get used to it.

MK:
- Not sure what I think of his nair. I don't think he really needed it but I'm ok with it.

Ness:
- Fair is less lame
- Overall more balanced

Pit:
- Yay multiple upb

Samus:
- Liking the bomb jump

Sheik:
- I dunno seemed like the same to me but didn't use her much

Snake:
- I felt like I had to camp a lot more with his lack of range. His only good poke is dtilt now.

Sonie:
- Looking good

Squirtle:
- Was using more bair to compensate for the slower fair

ToonLink:
- Fine

Wolf:
- Don't really like his nair now.
- Everything else is fine

Yoshi:
- Same

Zelda:
- Didn't try

ZSS:
- The angle for dtilt is a little weird now, with proper DI you can't follow up with much of anything.

 

[Alphatron]

Well, you're right about there being no definite guideline for where things stop changing. Lucas' game was lacking and a zair hitbox appearantly would saved him. Getting concise changes on pure theory crafting was never the greatest idea though, but if it can be tested, then why not give it a shot.

 

[GHNeko]

because everyone takes nightlies too seriously and ****storm when experiemental changes that are in no way permanent get into test builds and ****storm more when changes that are accidentally left in for too long get taken out and rage about change and metagame when nightlies are pretty much, yes experiemental.

obv

 

[The Cape]

For auto jabs, jabs in any game were never about exact precision. So long as the auto jab removal doesn't make jabs hard to do, I'm fine.

Actually cleaned up the issue there with the assistance of Shanus and Magus. Holding A to first jab no longer works, but the timing on the jabs or holding A to complete them should be more or less unchanged.

 

[CloneHat]

Looks like there's no horizontal auto snap any more.

The only problem I have with it is Falcon can't do his Raptor Ledge Grab or grab the ledge with Raptor Boost at all now. I'm sure similar things have happened to other characters, however.

 

[shanus]

Looks like there's no horizontal auto snap any more.

The only problem I have with it is Falcon can't do his Raptor Ledge Grab or grab the ledge with Raptor Boost at all now. I'm sure similar things have happened to other characters, however.

The end should be able to. If its not, I will fix it. I made a lot of these changes without physically being able to test them.

 

[MK26]

try holding toward the stage...but if theyve all disappeared, that could be a code error

 

[CountKaiser]

My friend actually suicided by trying to side-b the edge with MK. Drill rush just drilled into the edge, then MK bounced back at the end of it and died.

 

[Fledgling]

Forgive me for not wanting to read the past 52 pages of this thread, but has anyone else encountered a glitch after downloading this version where Zelda's Final Smash freezes the game? It happens every single time. No joke.

 

[IC3R]

Yeah, I got the same thing, but why is this important? Smash Balls shouldn't be on in Vs. mode! >=[

(Unless you were doing Classic/All-Star mode or something, like I did.)

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Community input is your most valuable tool for a variety of reasons, but mostly because at most, we're looking at 40,000 hours of combined game testing a week (if you figure 100 employees at 40 hours a week) from a game development team the size of the one who created brawl.

Actual end-game balance in a real fighting game is based on millions and millions of hours of gameplay. Sakurai had no way of knowing some things, period. If he knew about the game during development what we know now, the game would have been very different.

Isolating yourselves in the WBR would be a mistake, not that I believe you are doing that. At the same time, it is your job to pick your battles. Autojab removal, for instance, is something that a new developer would do. They would say "This is really really important!" and spend a lot of time configuring and testing this, only to find out that the impact in gameplay was minimal and only a vocal minority cared about it. Thus, a waste of time. (I'm only using the autojabs as an example and don't want to get into arguing about it.) Really good article about this: http://www.eldergame.com/2009/07/the-warcraft-live-teams-b-squad/

I've spent time on game development teams for years as a playtester, and has a music engineer, and a sound engineer, and as an in-house and freelance composer. The reality of this situation is that builds are probably released too fast (because as someone said earlier, community input becomes more valuable the longer they've been allowed to play with the build), and that stopping nightlies was probably a good idea. The other reality is that at some point you have to pick your battles, and not only that, but make creative, surgical changes and not just start wailing on things with a stick because you can.

I have a bit of a problem with the Brawl+ development mentality emphasizing speed and technical ability to the point where you will remove mechanics that work well and serve a purpose because they are just too easy to perform. This seems backwards to me, because while skill should be an important part of Smash, a huge part of the game's initial appeal and a huge design feature is the relative simplicity of the game. The removal of some features (autojabbing, and footstool jumping which I'm sure will go away again) seems bizarre and arbitrary, as though you were all just looking for things to change in order to flex your trigger finger.

As for ZSS vs. Falco (because you asked): there is no way to change this match-up without making significant changes to the balance of other match-ups. In vBrawl, Marth beats Falco even though ZSS and Marth are similar-ish characters. The reason for this is because Marth has a solid option that covers the area below and in front of him (Fair, and to an extent bair and dair) whereas ZSS has a huge blind spot there. Given that she obviously has to approach, this is problematic. One thing you might consider is making her crawl speed a lot faster You may also consider giving neutral air a much bigger hitbox and eliminating the ending lag.

 

[Fledgling]

Yeah, I got the same thing, but why is this important? Smash Balls shouldn't be on in Vs. mode! >=[

If they shouldn't be on, why is the option there?

Does anyone have a remedy to this issue?

 

[Seikishidan Soru]

Just leave them off. -_-

 

[Alondite]

So where can one get their hands on Cape's set?

 

[Alphatron]

The throw modifier causes the FS freezing glitch. I'm pretty sure the throw modifier will be gone from the next set, so the FSes will work again. For now, just don't use final smashes.

 

[Plum]

I have a bit of a problem with the Brawl+ development mentality emphasizing speed and technical ability to the point where you will remove mechanics that work well and serve a purpose because they are just too easy to perform. This seems backwards to me, because while skill should be an important part of Smash, a huge part of the game's initial appeal and a huge design feature is the relative simplicity of the game. The removal of some features (autojabbing, and footstool jumping which I'm sure will go away again) seems bizarre and arbitrary, as though you were all just looking for things to change in order to flex your trigger finger.

I get the feeling that you just don't fully know the goals of B+. B+ is first and foremost a competitive game built by and for competitive players. To ensure the highest level of competition certain things must be stressed. To give the better player the best field to demonstrate this things that eliminate control of your character or that limit precision should be limited.

Does a ZSS player who can only beat Falco's Side B with machine gun jabs or does the player who can properly time their jab to beat Side B deserve to win? The removal of autojabs gives another window for the better player to show that they are. When everything is done for you the competitive environment is lessened.

Melee gave an environment where the better player can clearly show it through technical ability and B+ should emulate that to a degree. The removal of something like autojabs helps towards that goal.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I get the feeling that you just don't fully know the goals of B+. B+ is first and foremost a competitive game built by and for competitive players. To ensure the highest level of competition certain things must be stressed. To give the better player the best field to demonstrate this things that eliminate control of your character or that limit precision should be limited.

Does a ZSS player who can only beat Falco's Side B with machine gun jabs or does the player who can properly time their jab to beat Side B deserve to win? The removal of autojabs gives another window for the better player to show that they are. When everything is done for you the competitive environment is lessened.

Melee gave an environment where the better player can clearly show it through technical ability and B+ should emulate that to a degree. The removal of something like autojabs helps towards that goal.

You can have a balanced competitive fighting game by doing what Balanced Brawl has done; removing tripping, buffing up characters and trying your best to even up bad match-ups. Brawl+ has obviously gone above and beyond merely trying to create a "competitive" (arbitrary nature of this term notwithstanding) game by changing core game mechanics. In short, you cannot claim your goals are that simple, it is simply disingenuous. And really, Brawl+'s goals are fine. Have your melee-esque fighting game. I'm not trying to take that away from you. I'm simply trying to say that you don't need to make a mountain out of every mole hill to accomplish it. And really "better players" don't show through via "technical ability" solely in many competitive fighting games. In SF4, a smart player will beat a technical player every time.

From the article I linked:

“It’s always been stupid, and we just need to fix it!”

A few months back, the powers that be decided that Hunter ammunition didn’t work right. Hunters have to carry an arrow for every single shot they take, and in order to get the full benefits from them, they have to carry them in a special quiver — which doesn’t let you store other items in it, only ammo. All that ammo costs money, too. Plus, it leaves the designers unable to give out awesome “raid arrows” because you’d just shoot them all and then where would you be? Even though ammo had been a fine and fun distinguishing quirk of Hunters for years, it was time to Fix It.

The first plan was announced: WoW would no longer have consumable ammo. Instead, you would just need a single “infinite arrow” that you stuck in your ammo slot, and this would let you shoot your bow forever. Problem solved! No more quivers, no more pack space wasted, no more costs. And now raids could drop “loot arrows” that wouldn’t get used up! Perfect!

Whoops, turns out that plan would be hard. So they announced their backup plan: now ammo just stacks to very high numbers. Instead of having stacks of 200, now you can have stacks of 1000. This at least addresses the “pack space” issue. Call it a win! And they removed the magical benefits from quivers, so you no longer needed to use them. So they fixed the immediate emergency, and they’ll get to the “correct fix” later.

The thing is, there was no emergency. Sure, Hunters were happy to have a few extra pack slots. But the change threw all sorts of other things out of whack: magic quivers are still given out as quest rewards… they just aren’t magical anymore. And leathercrafters can still make them! They just can’t sell them to any sane Hunter. And so on… the game wasn’t really cleaned up after this change.

But I’m sure it felt so pressing, so urgent. So they had to address the issue, side-effects be ****ed.

Without somebody experienced at the helm, the voice of the myopic designer tends to be the loudest. “WE HAVE TO FIX THE HUNTER” they said. Maybe they said, “Hunters have to spend 65% more on bare essentials than any other class. I will never be able to balance class expenditures like this!” Or maybe they said, “Hunters have to waste more inventory slots than any other class. It damages quest completion rates!” Or maybe they just said, “It’s SO STUPID. It’s always been stupid, and we just need to fix it! Do it now!” Obviously, nobody thought very hard about the ramifications, and nobody spent any time easing players into the idea. And nobody stopped to make sure they did a good job.

So some tiny little mistakes crept into the game. Nothing huge. Nothing that will sink the Titanic. But mistakes nonetheless… “magical” crafted quivers that aren’t magical and can’t be sold are clearly a mistake. These little bugs accumulate, like lint on a hardwood floor.

 

[MK26]

sfp, i would understand what youre saying if we only had one reason to kill autojabs, but the fact of the matter is that our disdain for machine gun jabs is not the only one. It also goes the other way: getting rid of the autojabs will also make jab mixups and cancels more feasable and less technically ******** to do.

not to mention autojabs are most definitely not a character-specific change, even if there are character-specific variations. it has very little to do with balance, but rather is simply an output change - its clearly the wbr's intent to keep the input for a jab combo to stay normal, and, when done right, no autojabs definitely should not affect you regular gamepley outside of...removing automatic jab1's on miss.

...unless im missing the point, in which case i will be

 

[Seikishidan Soru]

Have your melee-esque fighting game. I'm not trying to take that away from you.

Nice stealth troll, except for the not so stealth part.

Precise execution is an important part of fighting games, just like mind games are. You mentioned SF IV as an example. Guess what happens in that game when you mess up during a link? That's right, you get SRK'd/SPD'd for massive damage and wakes. And this is how it should be.

There's no reason the better player should merely be the "smart" one. I don't care if you can predict everything, if you can't pull your stuff off correctly you deserve to get owned. Conversely, quick fingers should never be the only quality required to win. The better player is the one who excels in both areas, and it's only logical that a properly designed competitive game offers players the opportunity to take advantage of both skills.

So really, Brawl+'s goals ARE that simple. No need to question anyone's intent here.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Can someone link me to Cape's latest set? I'm too lazy to go back a few pages and find it. :V


(yes I know this should be in the code Q+A requests or whatever, but please?)

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

sfp, i would understand what youre saying if we only had one reason to kill autojabs, but the fact of the matter is that our disdain for machine gun jabs is not the only one. It also goes the other way: getting rid of the autojabs will also make jab mixups and cancels more feasable and less technically ******** to do.

not to mention autojabs are most definitely not a character-specific change, even if there are character-specific variations. it has very little to do with balance, but rather is simply an output change - its clearly the wbr's intent to keep the input for a jab combo to stay normal, and, when done right, no autojabs definitely should not affect you regular gamepley outside of...removing automatic jab1's on miss.

...unless im missing the point, in which case i will be

Thanks for trying to explain the autojab thing, but really that's not my only point. I was responding to a post earlier about where the line should be drawn, and autojabs were a good example (in my opinion) of where the line of appropriate changes was crossed.

By the way, even vBrawl rewards smart players and technical players both, even if you dont' think it's technical enough. Every fighting game offers technical challenges, even if they aren't as difficult as in other games.

Creating technical challenges arbitrarily just draws a line in the sand, it doesn't make the game deeper.

 

[RPGsFTW]

I'm guessing that some of this discussion, and some from the character+ forums, mean that this build is actually NOT finished and ready to go whenever Bionic Sonic is told to add it to BrawlPlus.net?

FFFFFF. Sorry to repeat myself so much, but I'd really like the finished build out by Sunday for our weekly tournaments. It's a pretty nice build, and it has some of the character balancing issues fixed that were very important over here.

Sunday, please. If at all possible. =[