Brawl vs. Melee Research Project

[kirbykid]

Writing for my gaming blog for about 2 1/2 years, I've studied game design and the language used to describe games with more zeal than pursuing my English degree. Throughout my blog, I frequently refer to two game series as foundational examples of quality game design. One is Super Mario Bros (NES) an the other is the Smash series (mainly Melee and Brawl). So naturally, I turn to smashboards and the community here for help.




The long term plan is to get to the bottom of the whole Brawl vs. Melee issue. And by "bottom" I simply mean being able to understand and explain exactly how different the two games are and what makes them different. This is a lot more complicated than it may seem. I believe there's a lot to learn for all smashers and even non-smashers and that clear communication comes from a clear language. So that's where you come in.

BRAWL VS. MELEE SURVEY

That link takes you to the short survey where you can submit your answers to the database. Share the link with all the smashers you know.

I plan on making a similar post in the Melee general discussion so "both sides" are fairly represented. I hope the mods support this idea.

I'm also thinking about producing a podcast or video of the final results. I can only get there with your help.

Feel free to ask questions about the project and repost your responses to keep the thread alive.

Thanks

UPDATE. THE RESULTS WILL BE PRESENTED IN A SERIES OF WEBISODES.

GOOD GAME EPISODE 1.

GOOD GAME EPISODE 1 FOLLOW UP

GOOD GAME EPISODE 2.

GOOD GAME EPISODE 2 PART 2


GOOD GAME EPISODE 3

GOOD GAME EPISODE 3 PART 2

GOOD GAME EPISODE 4

GOOD GAME EPISODE 4 PART 2

 

[Slaps]

nice survey really makes you think about both games and their history.

 

[Bahamut]

Saw CORY post this on Facebook. Haven't logged in for maybe a year, but I had to rant about tripping in Brawl. Everything else can be compensated for, but for me, tripping breaks Brawl.

 

[dualseeker]

Very nice Survey. It really makes you think about both games and their mechanics. I'll be sure to spread this around.

 

[kirbykid]

Thanks everyone. I got some decent data so far, but I really want this thing to blow up.

 

[TheMike]

I did the survey.

 

[kirbykid]

I did the survey.

Thanks. I want everyone to have a chance to voice their opinion on this project.

Spread the word everywhere you go.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

This is a very nice survey. I'm glad that this is entirely private, I was coming in to see flames, but this is very nice.

 

[uhmuzing]

Great survey; still working on it, 'cause I might be writing a bit.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Neat survey.

Reviving an old and pointless debate, huh?

 

[highfive]

Interesting survey although all questions can be answered in the same manner.

 

[Deleted member]

Removed by Moderator

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Is this survey also in the Melee boards? Otherwise there will definitely be a bias in the responses.

If this were true then what makes you think they'll do any better?

Welcome to the boards kid.

 

[Vyzor]

Nice survey :O I finished it but it said the page couldn't be displayed after...hope it worked o_o

 

[ぱみゅ]

This was interesting, but I think there's not gonna be real results unless people just not randomly flame over their less-liked game.
Other than that, I'd like to see how it goes.

 

[kirbykid]

Nice survey :O I finished it but it said the page couldn't be displayed after...hope it worked o_o

Something weird happened with the google survey last night (I think). I didn't get your results. I hope you didn't lose too much work.

If you still have the page/tab up on your computer you might be able to click back and recover your answers. Otherwise, you can simply submit a quick and dirty version of whatever you typed originally.

Thanks everyone.

I'm going to make the post in the melee forums now. I asked a mod for permission and haven't heard back yet.

 

[MT_]

If this were true then what makes you think they'll do any better?

Welcome to the boards kid.

I don't think you're getting the point when he's talking about bias. Obviously people in the Brawl discussion will be bias towards Brawl and people in the Melee discussion will be bias towards Melee. The 'bias' he is talking about is about overall responses being heavily favored on only one side because you only approached one group of people for their responses. Now stop sounding condescending.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

I don't think you're getting the point when he's talking about bias. Obviously people in the Brawl discussion will be bias towards Brawl and people in the Melee discussion will be bias towards Melee. The 'bias' he is talking about is about overall responses being heavily favored on only one side because you only approached one group of people for their responses. Now stop sounding condescending.

After this I'll stop posting so I don't get some idiot reporting me for trolling.

The people who will express their true thoughts about the games are the minority. Bring this to the Melee boards and you'll get the same results but they favor Melee completely.

I would suggest to make this exclusive to Backroom members though whatever the results are do not impact anything. People will still prefer one game over the other.

Spend more than 7 months here and you'll know what I mean.

 

[MT_]

No one is disagreeing with you. I'm just pointing out that you're arguing a point that wasn't brought up in the first place, and seemed to want to use that as an excuse to say something like "Welcome to the boards kid" which came off (at least to me) as condescending. In any case, it does seem that this thread was posted in the Melee boards so both groups will be represented, though imperfectly and with less than great quality of responses like you said.

 

[Mr.-0]

I answered the survey! It was very nice and well thought out.

 

[kirbykid]

After this I'll stop posting so I don't get some idiot reporting me for trolling.

The people who will express their true thoughts about the games are the minority. Bring this to the Melee boards and you'll get the same results but they favor Melee completely.

I would suggest to make this exclusive to Backroom members though whatever the results are do not impact anything. People will still prefer one game over the other.

Spend more than 7 months here and you'll know what I mean.

No one is disagreeing with you. I'm just pointing out that you're arguing a point that wasn't brought up in the first place, and seemed to want to use that as an excuse to say something like "Welcome to the boards kid" which came off (at least to me) as condescending. In any case, it does seem that this thread was posted in the Melee boards so both groups will be represented, though imperfectly and with less than great quality of responses like you said.

So for I'm getting responses from all kinds of smashers. And by all kinds, I mean different combinations of casual-tournament-melee-brawl players. So, I don't think I'm getting results from just the "hardcore" vocal minority. I'm reaching out via facebook, personal contacts, and allisbrawl too to try and get everyone with a voice/opinion a chance to take the survey.

The major point of the survey is to get a lot of data on how people talk about smash. I purposely picked language/questions that are difficult to answer due to their possible ambiguity. So far I've found that that people use what should be simple/basic terms inconsistently.

Though I framed the investigation in a Brawl vs. Melee mindset, this was mainly done to get attention. The final result of which game won the poll isn't the point.

Good points from both of you. There's no reason for the disagreement/argument to continue from this point.

 

[AlphaZealot]

Filled it out. Didn't like how some questions were similar like:
Which game is more complex?
Which game has more depth?

More or less that is asking the same questions.

Also the option of either "neither" or "both" would have been nice for every question.

 

[kirbykid]

Filled it out. Didn't like how some questions were similar like:
Which game is more complex?
Which game has more depth?

More or less that is asking the same questions.

Also the option of either "neither" or "both" would have been nice for every question.

Thanks for taking the time.

Depth and complexity not the same at all. In fact, they're opposite. Check this blog post of mine for clarification.

The fact that different people had "issues" with some of the questions speaks to the overall lack of definite terms in our gaming lexicon. Or perhaps not a lack of terms but a lack of an education on the terms that exist. Or perhaps a lack of agreement between different schools of thought. It's this conundrum that inspired me to start the project in the first place.

I designed the survey to force people to make a choice with plenty of room to explain their choice afterwards. Because the project is mainly looking at language, the more I can get people to respond, the better.

 

[uhmuzing]

After reading through that page, I put your blog on my desktop lol. Good stuff, man.

 

[kirbykid]

After reading through that page, I put your blog on my desktop lol. Good stuff, man.

I'm glad you liked it. I've written over 400k words trying to explain game design clearly enough and thoroughly enough so that I can tackle big issues like.... Brawl vs. Melee.

And because I've done a lot of the work ahead of time, I hope things will go smoothly in the near future.

 

[Phoenix~Lament]

Ohai, I first saw this thread in the melee boards and myself hang around there a lot more than here, but I'm here so why not just respond here.

I think you make a good point in that gamers as a whole don't really know much about the lingo and differences about one game to the next. Instead, it seems like most of us focus simply within each of our games of choice. Maybe that's why there's so much tension between fans of different games; it's a lack of understanding as well as the innate subjectivity of it all.

I also like your blog. I read some posts in it and you have a lot of good stuff to say. Game design is pretty interesting to me so it's pretty cool.

Responding to me would be odd. Maybe just pm me if you have something to say?

 

[link2702]

filled out my response yesterday or the day b4 if i remember correclty

now...i'm someone who came into competitive smash during the brawl scene, (thanks to wifi) though i *DID* know about it for awhile and saw lots of vids of the melee scene, but due to various reasons, as never able to get into it.


however, even though i started out in the brawl scene, IMO melee...is hands down just the better game competitivly, it is more complex, has more depth, requires alot more skill and faster reflexes, and honestly in many ways, is ALOT LOT LOT more balanced character wise then brawl , its also both more enjoyable to watch matches of melee then brawl, i honestly have never been too impressed with many brawl matches i see, less something jsut truely unexpected happens such as the match recently with ook's DK and mikehaze's DDD, where the bomb finished off Mike, but other then those rare moments, most brawl matches when watching em, don't impress me nearly at all, meanwhile, i wathc a melee match/combo vid, and i'm on the edge of my seat like "O_O whoah, DUUUUUUUUUDE WTF DID YOU SEE THAT AMAZING"

tbh...the ONLY reason i play brawl, is just for the fact that it has wifi...thats it....if brawl did not have online, i'd probably be back to melee, or if nintendo re-released melee and added only online to it, i'd go straight to it and drop brawl.


brawl may have more content in other areas, and its sure to always please casual item match players mroe then 64 or melee, but in terms of competitive play.....brawl just flat out doesn't stand a chance against melee.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

I took it.

Filled it out. Didn't like how some questions were similar like:
Which game is more complex?
Which game has more depth?

More or less that is asking the same questions.

Also the option of either "neither" or "both" would have been nice for every question.

I agree with this. I was having to choose one over the other when often times I wished I had a "neither" or "both" option.

 

[Apollo$]

snip.

What he said

 

[JuxtaposeX]

In my opinion Melee is the game that requires more skill, and has more depth but I rather play Brawl.
I played Melee when it first came out, but I never got to learn any of those fancy techs like wavedash or L cancel. When Brawl came out, that's when I started to try to play more competitively and learn of the cool stuff techs in Melee. I tried to learn Melee after that, but I realized that it was pointless since I know very few people who are actually good at smash and they would rather play Brawl anyways. I didn't want to waste my time getting good in Melee when there was no one to play against. I rather get good in Brawl since it became a much more popular game compared to Melee, since that way I would be able to show people my skills.

 

[tocador]

Awesome survey, really liked it.

Id expect you to post the results after right :D????

 

[kirbykid]

Awesome survey, really liked it.

Id expect you to post the results after right :D????

Yes. I'm organizing the information and planning the presentation currently.

 

[kirbykid]

Check the first post for an update and a link to the first video episode of the results.

Good Game episode 2 part 2!

 

[Veel]

Interesting idea and good luck w/ the survey! :-)

 

[Big-Cat]

It's odd how few responses there are in here.

 

[Black Mantis]

I like how he busted the Melee players myth in the 1st episode.

Also, never let it be said that you can't camp or stall in Melee
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTNaAUJZz5k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTHfcafE9ig
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yI_hGcWjTKA

But seriously, the point you made about the players making the game competitive is very true. People have been competing in games since the 80's (Pac-Man, Dig-Dug, Donkey Kong). The developers of those games never imagined that people would compete in them, but people did anyway. As long as there are players willing to compete in it the competitive spirit will be there. I'm interested in the future episodes and how they discuss balance in the context of both games.

 

[kirbykid]

GOOD GAME EPISODE 3

GOOD GAME EPISODE 3 PART 2

 

[Zeroxius]

You have amazing stuff dude, it puts everything in near perfect clarity and uses simple human logic to work out conclusions that make sense. I love it! Just thought I'd say that because this thread looks pretty dead, lol. =D

 

[kirbykid]

You have amazing stuff dude, it puts everything in near perfect clarity and uses simple human logic to work out conclusions that make sense. I love it! Just thought I'd say that because this thread looks pretty dead, lol. =D

Thanks Aku, warlord of evil.

This thread is pretty dead. I wonder if it'll pick up in the future. The same thread over on the melee boards is on page 12, but has slowed down a bit recently.

oh and...

GOOD GAME EPISODE 4 PART 2

 

[BlueSuperSonic1]

Great videos. I answered the survey and your videos are very entertaining to watch. I personally like both games equally.