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[kupo15]

So you ask why does it need to be a button press? Well gee... there is only so much you can do to make things challenging with a game controller. You can either use your joystick like NADT which people don't like, or you can add to the complexity of the inputs by adding another button...but then again, no one likes that either. So we only want things that involve decision making...got it! We should be playing with our minds then!

Why shouldn't newbs be given something that makes it easier to play?

Compared to other fighting games, smash is the most approachable and easiest to pick up. Standard button combinations that work for each character and a play field that is incredibly free. They newbs shouldn't be rewarded because they are newbs. The only thing that newbs should get is a friend that can teach them.

Edit: Kupo too? Oh no. Kupo, when will you get over your vendetta? If you think making the game harder somehow makes it more competitive then thats just a shallow viewpoint. If the only thing that keeps a player playing a game is forced difficulty then the game wouldn't be worth my time.

The thing that makes games fun is how you can always improve and games that are hard. How could one have a lasting appeal of fun for games that make things easy?

But it is. The difference between L-canceling and DI is that DI is something that changes depending on the situation and is not PURE MUSCLE MEMORY, which is what l-canceling boils down to. L-canceling is used in EVERY situation and serves NO indication as to how good the player is.

If you really want to dig deep, you can make a pretty good comparison between DI.


"DI changes on the situation"
Same for l canceling. There always is a best way to DI attacks. You always want to DI up from Metaknights tornado. You always want to DI towards the corners to survive the best. L canceling also has its variations as well. The timing for each aerial is not the same depending on hitlag and positioning. If you always pressed the l button at the exact same time from the start of the aerial, you will miss many cancels if you don't adjust.

"L canceling is used in EVERy situation"
So what? DI is used every time you get hit. There isn't a time when you would never want to DI and there always is a better way to DI which means its almost (almost) always the only way to DI. The rule of thumb is to DI away to avoid getting comboed and towards against finishing moves.

If you realllllly nitpick and not just look at both techs on the surface, they both boil down to be just about the same thing.

I could be an utter crap player that can't DI, can't wavedash, can't space, can't even SHIELDGRAB, but I could have practiced l-canceling for hours and be pro at it.

This means absolutely nothing. You need a balance in your game. You can't be awesome at one aspect of any game and choose to be terrible at the rest. You can't be a pro at DI and crap at everything else because you would still be a terrible player. You can't be pro at your technique and crap at your decision making. This is for any game. You can't be pro at driving a golf ball and terrible at approaches and putts because you would still be terrible at the game.

This proves that l canceling is not at fault, the fault is that you are overcentralizing your game around one aspect of play.

Because brawl+ is NOT meant to be a TECHNICALLY DIFFICULT game, but rather a COMPETITIVE GAME which relies less on EXECUTION and more on SMART GAMEPLAY. You can argue that B+ is lesstechnically competitive than vbrawl, but you cannot argue that it is less competitive. B+ has obvious skill levels which differentiate good and bad players without relying on technical skill.

Brawl+ is meant to be competitive and whats competitive about a game that is easy? A lot of good games rely on both good execution and smart play. This is a fighting game, not a chess game.

Tech skill, as far as we have been using it in this thread, pertains to execution skills. Please don't assume we mean something else.

Be more specific with your words then.

You are assuming that technical competitiveness is the most important competitiveness. Considering the variety of fighters that are smash in which technical competitiveness is a very small amount of the total skill level of the game itself, I would actual argue that technical competitiveness is the LEAST important competitiveness.

No I am not. I am just pointing out the lack of attention to the technical aspect of play. Technical play is equally as important as the decision making of play. There needs to be a balance and right now there is not. Don't assume for me.

It's quite different, as has been stated multiple times, due to the fact that l-canceling is used in EVERY situation without regard for circumstances.

So there would be times where you wouldn't want to DI? Interesting.

If you're beaten out by someone who just plays smarter, then they should win. They're playing smarter. Are you saying that just because you're good at pressing buttons really fast, you should be able to beat me?

No. You shouldn't be able to win by only pressing buttons well and only by thinking well. You should be able to win by multi tasking both aspects of play. Right now, the technical aspect of the game is not on par with the thinking aspect of the game.

This is like saying that chess isn't a competitive game because it relies on you being intelligent to win.

Chess is not a fighting game.

Bottom line is, b+ is too easy

 

[Sudai]

So there would be times where you wouldn't want to DI? Interesting.

Actually there are times where you wouldn't want to DI because a move already sends you to the corner of the blast zones, but once again, that would be the "best DI" and you'd always want to go with the best DI. Just pointing out that there are time.

 

[Arkaether]

So you ask why does it need to be a button press? Well gee... there is only so much you can do to make things challenging with a game controller. You can either use your joystick like NADT which people don't like, or you can add to the complexity of the inputs by adding another button...but then again, no one likes that either. So we only want things that involve decision making...got it! We should be playing with our minds then!

Yes, we should be playing with our minds. Unless you want Brawl+ to turn into a button mashfest.

Compared to other fighting games, smash is the most approachable and easiest to pick up. Standard button combinations that work for each character and a play field that is incredibly free. They newbs shouldn't be rewarded because they are newbs. The only thing that newbs should get is a friend that can teach them.

So newbs shouldn't get to be able to pick up and play a fighting game? I see no reasoning whatsoever behind this statement except for elitism and "I'm better than you". Brawl+ is a noob-friendly game, and you're not going to change that fact.

The thing that makes games fun is how you can always improve and games that are hard. How could one have a lasting appeal of fun for games that make things easy?

Because you have to be smarter than your opponent? Why do some people like playing checkers when all you're doing is moving little pieces around? Boring, right?

If you really want to dig deep, you can make a pretty good comparison between DI.


"DI changes on the situation"
Same for l canceling. There always is a best way to DI attacks. You always want to DI up from Metaknights tornado. You always want to DI towards the corners to survive the best. L canceling also has its variations as well. The timing for each aerial is not the same depending on hitlag and positioning. If you always pressed the l button at the exact same time from the start of the aerial, you will miss many cancels if you don't adjust.

"L canceling is used in EVERy situation"
So what? DI is used every time you get hit. There isn't a time when you would never want to DI and there always is a better way to DI which means its almost (almost) always the only way to DI. The rule of thumb is to DI away to avoid getting comboed and towards against finishing moves.

If you realllllly nitpick and not just look at both techs on the surface, they both boil down to be just about the same thing.

You're really stretching here. The difference in l-canceling is not nearly that hard. The only real timing difference is hitting a lightshield, and even then it's easy enough to adjust. Whereas for DI you have to understand the individual trajectories of each attack in a game and know specifics for how to DI, along with the consequences and how to avoid THOSE. L-canceling is pure muscle memory no matter how "varied" you believe it is.

This means absolutely nothing. You need a balance in your game. You can't be awesome at one aspect of any game and choose to be terrible at the rest. You can't be a pro at DI and crap at everything else because you would still be a terrible player. You can't be pro at your technique and crap at your decision making. This is for any game. You can't be pro at driving a golf ball and terrible at approaches and putts because you would still be terrible at the game.

Then why is everyone talking about L-canceling as the one thing that's going to be supernecessary for separating noobs and good players?

This proves that l canceling is not at fault, the fault is that you are overcentralizing your game around one aspect of play.
Brawl+ is meant to be competitive and whats competitive about a game that is easy? A lot of good games rely on both good execution and smart play. This is a fighting game, not a chess game.

So lack of technical competitiveness automatically makes a game "easy"? A game where you don't have to press an extra button every second is "easy" and therefore immediately "uncompetitive"? You act like you've never heard of spacing, zoning, or gameflow. Stop brushing aside Brawl+ as "easy" merely because you don't have to enter superficial button inputs that serve no purpose towards furthering the game.

Be more specific with your words then.

Nobody else is having any problems understanding. If you're the only one that does, perhaps the problem doesn't lie with me, it lies with you.

No I am not. I am just pointing out the lack of attention to the technical aspect of play. Technical play is equally as important as the decision making of play. There needs to be a balance and right now there is not. Don't assume for me.

There is no lack of attention, it is a conscious decision by the people that tech skill should be less important than smart play.

So there would be times where you wouldn't want to DI? Interesting.

There are times where I would want to DI different ways. I don't want to DI down and away at high percentages from falcon's dthrow for fear of a knee KO, but I do at lower in order to prevent a knee followup. I want to DI up and in at high percentages to avoid the knee KO. I want to DI up and in so shiek can't CG me, or I can DI down and away so she doesn't have a bair followup. DI is not "in this situation, you will ALWAYS DI this way". L-canceling is "in every situation no matter what, you will ALWAYS l-cancel".

No. You shouldn't be able to win by only pressing buttons well and only by thinking well. You should be able to win by multi tasking both aspects of play. Right now, the technical aspect of the game is not on par with the thinking aspect of the game.
Chess is not a fighting game.

No, only you think the technical aspects aren't on par. I think that the technical aspects, while indeed limited, are numerous enough to work for a balanced game.

 

[Swordplay]

While I agree that technical aspects are important you must realize its not as important as it use to be.

B+ is hard but it is not technically hard, Right now, I believe it is intellectually hard. If you want to add technical skill then make sure there is some intelligence behind it. People don't want one thing to be OP and used in every situation like L-canceling. If an idea came up that improved both the technical skill and intelligent aspect of play, I'm sure more people would support it. B+ in nature is going to be a more intelligent game than technical game when compared to past smash games. I'll go back to the counterpick system as an example. While balancing the game, we created a complex CP system that requires people to make intelligent decisions before they even begin there match. It existed in old smash games but is more important in B+.

I came to accept that by nature, tech skill is going to be less prevalent in B+ than in possible any other smash game. Other games like SF require lots of tech skill, implementing streams of inputs for massive combos.

B+'s combos are about intelligence because every situation is far more unique. The same stream of inputs won't work for every situation. This is why I think adding depth and variety will come if people use their options intelligently, realizing the same thing button input does not work.

Thus I have concluded that L-canceling would have been a great idea if choosing not to use it gave you some sort of advantage in a certain scenario. But because it does not have that intelligent aspect, it will always be used and become OP.

 

[Deleted member]

Bottom line is, b+ is too easy

wow interesting, especially since you never brought it up as important in the WBR.
and don't give me a quote from one of the char specific threads, I mean an actual thread where you bring this up.

also you might call B+ easy, but most other fighters only have a steeper angle in the beginning. they peak out at nearly the smae level of depth.
you not seeing that only let's me to believe that you aren't very talented, but I'm not gonna assume stuff here.

 

[DaiAndOh]

There is something to consider about where people want Brawl+ to go.

Do you want Brawl+ to be able to continuously gain popularity?
Or do you want to limit the game to the small community we have right now?

The best way for Brawl+ to keep gaining more users is to remain an easy to pick up game. This means that there are no immediate barriers between players other then their knowledge of the game.

Look at what Melee is right now. In terms of the competitive level of the game it is thriving, and players are better then they have ever been. At the same time, what makes the game so competitive is going to be the final nail in the coffin. A fighting game needs new players to survive, and if the game itself shuts itself out to new players then its going to die.

L canceling is just an arbitrary tech, and the only reason I see for people wanting it is to separate themselves from new players. That is such a horrible reason for something to be included that it isn't even funny.

That said, I wouldn't mind a more technical game, but I do not want to eliminate one of the great things B+ has going for it: a game that it easy to pick up. The route I would rather go though is into character specific AT's, and perhaps more of a reward for performing them. Some already have these types of options, like I said earlier with Sheik and Luigi's crawldashing and Squirtle's shellshifting.

These types of things can range from all sorts of things. An obvious example would be to give Captain Falcon the ability to moonwalk. Maybe Bowser would be given some form of crouch canceling with a well timed crouch (sort of like a powershield) or small super armor in his crawl playing into that whole Boozer don't care idea from early B+. Find a way to make Ganondorf's wiztruck super jump into a useful AT; with the height he gets from that, it has a lot of potential. Making Yoshi's pseudo wavedash techniques more worthwhile, or perfecting Ness's DJC options.

If we look into the character techs already available and actually give them an advantage when used correctly then that deepens competitive play without shutting out new players. Even better would be creating new B+ specific character techs on top of that which rewards a player who can execute them effectively and correctly. Players don't need these techs to succeed, smart play will always be able to make up for a lack of tech skill, but those who can would have a natural advantage because they would be given more available options and different rewards.

I like the idea of adding character specific tech skill. In a way, the Ice Climbers already have this with their desynching tactics. This will provide necessities to grasp technical skill in order to master a character, but still be able for anyone to pick up and play, and still do alright.

I know some Samus players would like to crouch cancel again, or, doubt it's possible, extender or Super Wave Dash. Maybe give the Extender to ZSS who seems to have possibly the worst of the tether grabs (for purposes of grabbing). Let Lucas keep his PK fire tricks such as zap jumping, wavebouncing, and magnet recovery/movement.

Oh, and VERY low priority and probably absolutely impossible, but give the Ness the yoyo glitch .

 

[FrozenHobo]

question: could someone just make up a quick MLC code for me to use to see how it works/feels in B+?

edit: daiandoh, you're asking for them to put in deliberate glitches as well as techs that don't exist anymore (wavedashing) as well as asking for stuff that already exists (dash canceling).

 

[grim mouser]

Phantom Wings tried to make MLC, and it didn't work so well. (Bugs and stuff...)

In short, no, I don't think someone's able to make up a quick code for it.

 

[RyuReiatsu]

I've seen a lot of posts about L-Canceling... And I'll just quote this one:

L canceling is just an arbitrary tech, and the only reason I see for people wanting it is to separate themselves from new players. That is such a horrible reason for something to be included that it isn't even funny.

What if it comes from one of those 'new players'? (newbies like me). I don't find it right that my friend who has much better technical skills than I gets beaten because I don't need to do L-Cancel. (I mess it up 2/3 of the time on Melee, he 3-stocks me in that game.) I can't tell when I get better. I happen to lose a lot against some other friends (mainly MKs and Snakes) and they barely use their minds. When I beat them (I gradually do), I'm not sure whether it was them playing badly or me getting better.

 

[polyopulis]

I will agree with kupo in that B+ is too easy but L-canceling is not the way to go. L-canceling doesn't add to the metagame at all and could be replaced by ALC and have the same effect on the metagame.
I think that this is the way to go.
VVVV

There is something to consider about where people want Brawl+ to go.

Do you want Brawl+ to be able to continuously gain popularity?
Or do you want to limit the game to the small community we have right now?

The best way for Brawl+ to keep gaining more users is to remain an easy to pick up game. This means that there are no immediate barriers between players other then their knowledge of the game.

Look at what Melee is right now. In terms of the competitive level of the game it is thriving, and players are better then they have ever been. At the same time, what makes the game so competitive is going to be the final nail in the coffin. A fighting game needs new players to survive, and if the game itself shuts itself out to new players then its going to die.

L canceling is just an arbitrary tech, and the only reason I see for people wanting it is to separate themselves from new players. That is such a horrible reason for something to be included that it isn't even funny.

That said, I wouldn't mind a more technical game, but I do not want to eliminate one of the great things B+ has going for it: a game that it easy to pick up. The route I would rather go though is into character specific AT's, and perhaps more of a reward for performing them. Some already have these types of options, like I said earlier with Sheik and Luigi's crawldashing and Squirtle's shellshifting.

These types of things can range from all sorts of things. An obvious example would be to give Captain Falcon the ability to moonwalk. Maybe Bowser would be given some form of crouch canceling with a well timed crouch (sort of like a powershield) or small super armor in his crawl playing into that whole Boozer don't care idea from early B+. Find a way to make Ganondorf's wiztruck super jump into a useful AT; with the height he gets from that, it has a lot of potential. Making Yoshi's pseudo wavedash techniques more worthwhile, or perfecting Ness's DJC options.

If we look into the character techs already available and actually give them an advantage when used correctly then that deepens competitive play without shutting out new players. Even better would be creating new B+ specific character techs on top of that which rewards a player who can execute them effectively and correctly. Players don't need these techs to succeed, smart play will always be able to make up for a lack of tech skill, but those who can would have a natural advantage because they would be given more available options and different rewards.

Another idea that I have been toying with is allowing people to effect their opponents DI when they hit with an attack. By this I mean when you hit an opponent and you SDI during hitlag, it will have some effect on the opponent's DI. Not as much as the victim's SDI but some effect to help control the opponent. Would need to be balanced and such of course. just throwing this idea out there.

 

[grim mouser]

IDK how easy it is to make ATs, but moonwalking would rawk.

 

[Plum]

I've seen a lot of posts about L-Canceling... And I'll just quote this one:



What if it comes from one of those 'new players'? (newbies like me). I don't find it right that my friend who has much better technical skills than I gets beaten because I don't need to do L-Cancel. (I mess it up 2/3 of the time on Melee, he 3-stocks me in that game.) I can't tell when I get better. I happen to lose a lot against some other friends (mainly MKs and Snakes) and they barely use their minds. When I beat them (I gradually do), I'm not sure whether it was them playing badly or me getting better.

A bad reason is still a bad reason no matter who it is coming from.

In the end, what will L canceling do for gameplay?
Absolutely nothing.
It is just one button that will not change how anything is done.
It won't deepen the game at all; Fox will still have the ******** easy combos, just one more button he has to press. Oh wow... real deep gameplay right there.

If you want something that shows off your tech skill, lets add in AT's that can actually affect the current way characters play by giving them more options whether it be through methods of movement or ways to enhance an attack's current properties. That will create a much more rich and diverse game, and allows the better players to be clearly viewed as the better players while not alienating new players.

 

[kupo15]

Actually there are times where you wouldn't want to DI because a move already sends you to the corner of the blast zones, but once again, that would be the "best DI" and you'd always want to go with the best DI. Just pointing out that there are time.

This is true and there are times when you wouldn't want to l cancel...when you AC moves because then you are punished with a shield popping up

So newbs shouldn't get to be able to pick up and play a fighting game? I see no reasoning whatsoever behind this statement except for elitism and "I'm better than you". Brawl+ is a noob-friendly game, and you're not going to change that fact.

No, a noob shouldn't be able to pick up a game and be at a very close skill level. The "I'm better than you" is better than the "I play every day because I am dedicated, but ohh, you rarely play and you can still put up a fight"

Because you have to be smarter than your opponent? Why do some people like playing checkers when all you're doing is moving little pieces around? Boring, right?

It can be boring depending on taste and modd. Sometimes I want a pure strategy game and sometimes I want action. They are different genres so you can't really compare and turning a fighting game into a game of chess certainly is shocking especially with the prevelence of two great fighting games before it.

You're really stretching here. The difference in l-canceling is not nearly that hard. The only real timing difference is hitting a lightshield, and even then it's easy enough to adjust. Whereas for DI you have to understand the individual trajectories of each attack in a game and know specifics for how to DI, along with the consequences and how to avoid THOSE. L-canceling is pure muscle memory no matter how "varied" you believe it is.

There are different timings you have to learn with l canceling whether you like it or not. Walk off FF aerials are different than jump to a higher platform l cancel and are different than a flat shffl. The move and hitlag further changes the timing. The difficulty is not the issue here. All techniques are not the same challenge and they shouldn't have to be in order for them to be a "worthy" technique. This creates variety and interest as well

Then why is everyone talking about L-canceling as the one thing that's going to be supernecessary for separating noobs and good players?

Its not the sole thing. Its just "one" of the missing pieces to the puzzle because l canceling alone does not determine skill as said by your side. But l canceling in the context of the other techs of varing skill.does.

So lack of technical competitiveness automatically makes a game "easy"? A game where you don't have to press an extra button every second is "easy" and therefore immediately "uncompetitive"? You act like you've never heard of spacing, zoning, or gameflow. Stop brushing aside Brawl+ as "easy" merely because you don't have to enter superficial button inputs that serve no purpose towards furthering the game.

"Easy" can't be defined by itself. In comparasion to the previous smash games..brawl+ is less technical and also easier in that regard.

Nobody else is having any problems understanding. If you're the only one that does, perhaps the problem doesn't lie with me, it lies with you.

Maybe because noone bothered to be specific and just felt like assuming.

There is no lack of attention, it is a conscious decision by the people that tech skill should be less important than smart play.

There are times where I would want to DI different ways. I don't want to DI down and away at high percentages from falcon's dthrow for fear of a knee KO, but I do at lower in order to prevent a knee followup. I want to DI up and in at high percentages to avoid the knee KO. I want to DI up and in so shiek can't CG me, or I can DI down and away so she doesn't have a bair followup. DI is not "in this situation, you will ALWAYS DI this way". L-canceling is "in every situation no matter what, you will ALWAYS l-cancel".

I never said DI was absolute, but DI does have a lot more trends that make it act a lot like muscle memory than you stated. It may have different limitations than l canceling but you still never not want to DI.

No, only you think the technical aspects aren't on par. I think that the technical aspects, while indeed limited, are numerous enough to work for a balanced game.

In your opinion

wow interesting, especially since you never brought it up as important in the WBR.
and don't give me a quote from one of the char specific threads, I mean an actual thread where you bring this up.

also you might call B+ easy, but most other fighters only have a steeper angle in the beginning. they peak out at nearly the smae level of depth.
you not seeing that only let's me to believe that you aren't very talented, but I'm not gonna assume stuff here.

I have brought this up before pk. Technically its easy. The only challenge would be the elements that are shared amongst fighting games

 

[grim mouser]

Adding to Plum, in a way: back when I had little/no idea about Melee techs, I was always most impressed by wavelanding/WDing, combos, and stuff like moonwalking.

One of the reasons to include MLC was to differentiate newbs and skilled players- simply by looking, deeper techs are much better at this than MLC.

 

[FrozenHobo]

i'd argue, but kupo seems to be really adamant about this. i may come back later and try to help out, but by then he'll probably have covered all of the bases. keep going kupo, you're not alone on this!

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

of ****ing course Brawl+ is going to be easy!!! its not like its a whole new game! its Brawl, we know the characters inside and out and we have memorized the levels and all that crap
nothing more to memorize in the game its just a heavy gravity, hitstun, and some more little things
its not like when we go to "Heavy Brawl" on special mode, then we're gonna have to master the game all over again
RANT OVER


if ppl want L cancelling so bad have a reason for it
like: L cancel = less lag + a few % knocked off the attacks damage and a bit off its knockback
no L cancel = stronger overall attack

taht would add some "depth" imo

idk dont just make the game hard
somthing

 

[CloneHat]

You do realize the BRoom doesn't seem to care about this argument? How numerous people have stated numerous times that we do NOT need L cancel? The reasons have already been presented, and we are just dragging them back out into the light of day here.

If L canceling is implemented into a codeset, I will remove it. I say if you want depth, help make certain character's techniques (desync is a good example) better, not add pointless button presses that add nothing to the game but make it more of a hassle to pull off menial tasks.

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

WIN!

L canceling = no
work on characters now ppl
after we get everything solidly done, then we can polish it up with a few small changes

 

[Tomkraven]

WIN!

L canceling = no
work on characters now ppl
after we get everything solidly done, then we can polish it up with a few small changes

I think that adding L cancel would be much better than keeping the ALR, characters like captain falcon get too much advantage from this, ive been 0-Death-ed by a Falcon player will a down grab, Nair, Nair, Uair, Uair, Knee in FD just because he get almost no lag on landing. If we get L-Cancel, doing a good combo would depend on whether he nailed the cancel or not.

 

[Slashy]

Brawl+ with Soul

Brawl+ with Soul
http://filebin.ca/gmcxog/RSBE01.gct

Here is my variation of the current nightly of Brawl+. It combines all of the stage changes in the current codeset along with all of the stage changes in Balanced Brawl.

Luigi's Mansion is no longer Deadlands, it takes longer to respawn now.

I think that adding L cancel would be much better than keeping the ALR, characters like captain falcon get too much advantage from this, ive been 0-Death-ed by a Falcon player will a down grab, Nair, Nair, Uair, Uair, Knee in FD just because he get almost no lag on landing. If we get L-Cancel, doing a good combo would depend on whether he nailed the cancel or not.

But at 100% ALR, there is WAY too much punishment.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

@ tomkraven: What you do, then, is edit CF's ALR. You don't make a big change like making L Cancelling a manual thing just to fix one character. >.> <.<

 

[Yingyay]

Whoever still wants L-Canceling in the game heres your solution.

Press L when you're doing an aerial. Done You l-canceled all by yourself.

Can we move on now?

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

Whoever still wants L-Canceling in the game heres your solution.
Press L when you're doing an aerial. Done You l-canceled all by yourself.
Can we move on now?

[insert victory theme here]

arright, so about changes besides that....
individual hitstun.. Wolf, Luigi, and a few others are gonna get changed slightly in this mannor right?

i think me might be able to carry that over to moves, so some moves hitstun is different
like...we can lower the hitstun of some character's moves like fox's (and many more's) Utilts, to encourage variation in combos..so im not whatching an utilt>utilt>utilt>nair match the whole time

 

[Yingyay]

Im not even sure if they have a clear-cut way to make individual hitstun yet....I might be wrong tho since some new complaint is made for 5 pages every day

 

[GPDP]

Im not even sure if they have a clear-cut way to make individual hitstun yet....I might be wrong tho since some new complaint is made for 5 pages every day

From what I hear, it will be part of the new engine codes that will be released in the next build.

 

[Yingyay]

From what I hear, it will be part of the new engine codes that will be released in the next build.

Nice. Im looking forward to that.

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

so should editing be done to specific moves? if possible
waht are ur opinions? xD and to what moves?

 

[Yingyay]

Nah I thnk the moves were tweaked near perfection.
If Luigi gets fixed then his n-air gets fixed so its ok to me.
The only thing left is throw-mods which cant be done at the time

 

[kupo15]

Phantom Wings tried to make MLC, and it didn't work so well. (Bugs and stuff...)

In short, no, I don't think someone's able to make up a quick code for it.

Spunit did most of the hard work in making the MLC code without trying. A good MLC code uses the same process as teching so I'm pretty sure what needs to be done would be to copy paste the teching code and change it to be l cancel.

Whoever still wants L-Canceling in the game heres your solution.

Press L when you're doing an aerial. Done You l-canceled all by yourself.

Can we move on now?

Thats stupid and you know it. That would be like me handing my seond controller to my 3 yr old sister and saying "your doing it!!! Your winning!!!!" as I play my one player adventure game.

The thing about l canceling is that it adds risk to the game. Aerials are no doubt the most verstial combo moves so your risking the possibility of missing the cancel and the combo for trying to aerial. Otherwise comboing is a breeze. I can't do Fox's drill shine waveshine crazy stuff in melee without practice which is how you play fox at a high level, but I can take a moment and play a proficient fox in brawl because alc makes it that much easier.

The only way I can think of possibility making the game harder without the "arbitrary tech barrier" would be to remove hitstun which obviously won't happen. My prediction is that you can add all the "decision only, no tech skill required" ATs you want to "try" and bring up the tech skill of the game but it won't do much because the core of the game is easy and the core is all you really need:

Aerials that can be spammed with ease only worring about spacing and without the possibility of lag to leave oneself open like in vbrawl
hitstun to give greater combos to the player without demanding at least a certain level of profiency with their character.

Its a shame that b+ is keeping Sakurai's vision alive

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

ok, but i wanna get somthing done about the utilts maybe
not too big of a problem but kinda annoying to me
meh...
how would we want to edit throws with the mod?

 

[Yingyay]

Spunit did most of the hard work in making the MLC code without trying. A good MLC code uses the same process as teching so I'm pretty sure what needs to be done would be to copy paste the teching code and change it to be l cancel.

Thats stupid and you know it. That would be like me handing my seond controller to my 4 yr old sister and saying "your doing it!!! Your winning!!!!" as I play my one player adventure game.

The thing about l canceling is that it adds risk to the game. Aerials are no doubt the most verstial combo moves so your risking the possibility of missing the cancel and the combo for trying to aerial. Otherwise comboing is a breeze. I can't do Fox's drill shine waveshine crazy stuff in melee without practice which is how you play fox at a high level, but I can take a moment and play a proficient fox in brawl because alc makes it that much easier.

See my above post was a joke but now im serious about it.
Its super late in the game to just start learning how to mash your L button tho. If the game isnt gonna be melee 2.0 why add L-canceling? Leave it how it is. If you really dont like how ALR then make your own set with it off.

ok, but i wanna get somthing done about the utilts maybe
not too big of a problem but kinda annoying to me
meh...
how would we want to edit throws with the mod?

Meh the only uptilts that are pretty crazy is mario,luigi, fox.....thats the main culprits of utilt sheneenee'z *thats rite I know wut I said* Thats basically how they rack of their damage. Mario and Luigi dont have superb range so its okay I guess. Fox....he's fox so it kinda comes with the package

 

[kupo15]

See my above post was a joke but now im serious about it.
Its super late in the game to just start learning how to mash your L button tho. If the game isnt gonna be melee 2.0 why add L-canceling? Leave it how it is. If you really dont like how ALR then make your own set with it off.

The thing is, even if it had everything from melee, it still wouldn't be melee 2.0. The engine is so different that it would still be easier by nature but at least it kept all the mechanics that worked in the past two games to keep it consistent. If it wasn't broken before, there was no reason to fix it.

 

[CloneHat]

Its a shame that b+ is keeping Sakurai's vision alive

Don't pull out the Sakurai **** on me, you can't be that desperate.

The whole reason we're arguing against l cancel is because it doesn't add risk because everyone learns it after 2 days and you're back where you started.

This is my last post on the matter, unless the need is desperate.

 

[Revven]

Spunit did most of the hard work in making the MLC code without trying. A good MLC code uses the same process as teching so I'm pretty sure what needs to be done would be to copy paste the teching code and change it to be l cancel.

So... then you'd be making L-Canceling even easier by nature. As the tech window works by just HOLDING the button when you're within that 15 frame window. L-Canceling would then essentially be the same thing, you would HOLD the button near the ground. That's even worse than what you want... especially if it's to fix the whole window issue it has in the first place, people would hate it even more so because then all it's doing is making you hold the button to cancel lag... wow...

I don't understand you, ever, all you want is a button press and one that needs to be held at that. gj kupo, gj.

 

[PosthumusES]

Kupo does have a point though, because ever since Brawl+ was made it was designed to be easy. But then you have to ask yourself " When will we draw the lines?" , the game been holding hands alot of time, shouldn't it be time that you have to do the work yourself.

 

[Yingyay]

CAN we talk about something other than lulz-canceling? Like this character specific hitstun?
I wanna know how this is gonna work. Maybe this will lead into a throw mod.

Kupo does have a point though, because ever since Brawl+ was made it was designed to be easy. But then you have to ask yourself " When will we draw the lines?" , the game been holding hands alot of time, shouldn't it be time that you have to do the work yourself.

Umm is it really THAT big a deal? Its not like some total noob is gonna just waltz in a wreck people. And what lines do we have that we're drawing? O_O You still have to win on your own dont you? Nobody is holding an instant win button because L-canceling is absent.

 

[FrozenHobo]

So... then you'd be making L-Canceling even easier by nature. As the tech window works by just HOLDING the button when you're within that 15 frame window. L-Canceling would then essentially be the same thing, you would HOLD the button near the ground. That's even worse than what you want... especially if it's to fix the whole window issue it has in the first place, people would hate it even more so because then all it's doing is making you hold the button to cancel lag... wow...

I don't understand you, ever, all you want is a button press and one that needs to be held at that. gj kupo, gj.

who the **** said 15 frames? you're the one giving it such a large window to activate, don't berate him for issues you're making up.

 

[Revven]

who the **** said 15 frames? you're the one giving it such a large window to activate, don't berate him for issues you're making up.

Umm.. Frozen, that's the window for TECHING, teching at 10 frames doesn't work right, I wasn't saying for the window for L-CANCELING obviously it would be lower but it would still be **** easy if it were to be based off the tech window code which currently allows you to HOLD the button to tech. Which kupo was saying that the L-Cancel code he would hope for would be based off the tech window code which made me respond with what I just said: it would make L-Canceling even easier despite having lower frames than the teching window, you could probably still hold the button if it is in fact going to be based off the current tech window code.

 

[PosthumusES]

On to what Yingyay said, maybe the KB of the grab is stronger if the character's hitstun is higher. Idk how it work, maybe someone can help explain.

 

[polyopulis]

The only way I can think of possibility making the game harder without the "arbitrary tech barrier" would be to remove hitstun which obviously won't happen. My prediction is that you can add all the "decision only, no tech skill required" ATs you want to "try" and bring up the tech skill of the game but it won't do much because the core of the game is easy and the core is all you really need:

But the tech barrier doesn't need to be arbitrary, why does it have to be MLC, why can't it be individual character techs? I would agree with a lot of your points on "the game is too easy" but putting in a universal tech that everyone must learn sets the tech barrier way too early in a player's development. It should be something that is a little less absolutely mandatory or even better, as I said, character specific. That way you can start with easier characters and move up to harder characters, like starting with sheik in melee then moving to marth or fox. It also makes the characters more diverse and puts a whole lot more stuff in the game to learn.

I completely and wholeheartedly agree that there are too few techs in the game and the game isn't technically challenging enough but i think that MLC is not the best way to remedy this.