Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[MK26]

just the electric sourspot, my bad

??

so its kinda like having a larger sweetspot?
and does it still spike, or did we change that?

The lightning kicks are really easy to land now. It's like having TWO knees.

Who doesn't? I've got two knees. I'm assuming you have two knees. Hell, even Captain Falcon and Zelda have two knees!

 

[VietGeek]

And the sweet spot behaves like the knee so my guess is the move is one huge knee that moves really fast

Not a bad idea for next year's April Fool's.

 

[kupo15]

Make all moves a knee. That would be a better April fools xD

 

[MK26]

Make all moves a knee. That would be a better April fools xD

Not enough lines in the hitbox mid engine...
buttttt, when the new one comes out... :D :D
*starts plotting*

 

[Laruto]

Who doesn't? I've got two knees. I'm assuming you have two knees. Hell, even Captain Falcon and Zelda have two knees!

LOL ^_^

Well I meant that its like having two moves as powerful as the knee. They're even easier to land than the knee. I don't know why the hitbox sizes are being increased though...

 

[shanus]

LOL ^_^

Well I meant that its like having two moves as powerful as the knee. They're even easier to land than the knee. I don't know why the hitbox sizes are being increased though...

The fair sweetspot hitbox is the size of her actual toe, and is only 1 frame long. It is also overwritten by her sourspot hitbox. That 1 frame hitbox is the only one which is amplified in size, and its minimal at best.

 

[Laruto]

Oh wow. :3

When you say it like that it doesn't seem too bad. I just found them much easier to land in B+ since I play both. Wasn't the bair size increased also?

 

[FrozenHobo]

this was discussed on the B+ live feed, but slightly less suction for the ICs blizzard would be.... fair.... god, i'm such a traitor.... but really, the suction is pretty ridiculous. though, i do feel it should have a good amount of suction so it can still set up for combos, etc.


god, i feel so dirty now.....

 

[Kief]

I don't want this to sound too critical, but I'd like to give my honest opinion about something. I'm starting to think that lately, there have been too many buffs, mainly hitbox size increases. I'm biased towards these as is because I think they encourage spam and lack of spacing. I don't think the hitbox on ANY move should be larger than the actual material object generating it. The thing I hate most about vbrawl was the extra invisible hitbox on snake's tilts. I just hate hitbox sizes that aren't, you know, realistic lol. Not that the game is realistic, but I hope you get what I mean.

The fantasy version of brawl in my mind would be to have every character be mid-tier material. I believe that was roughly the intention of the makers. However, imo, B+ seems to be shifting towards most everybody being high-tier material, and a few others mid-tier material. Most of the characters are balanced, yes, but with every character being amazing allows bad players to perform well against good players that otherwise wouldn't if every character had at least a decent learning curve. For example, as that zelda main mentioned above, LKs used to be a big thing that separated good zelda mains from spammy zelda mains. Now that they're easy to land, you don't have to be as skilled to be good at landing LKs.

I just think we'd be better off nerfing the 10-15 amazing characters in B+ down to the other 25-30, rather than buff up the 25-30 to the 10-15. All mid tier>all top tier. (I used the term tiers just as a reference to try to explain what I was saying, not as a way to suggest anything about a current tier list.)

Overall you guys have done a great job. I just wanted to speak my mind since that's what you encourage. It's a great game. I can't wait until it's finished and more people play it.

 

[timothyung]

What's the difference between everyone top tier and everyone mid tier? The person with better skill still wins. Both the players are playing good characters, so why would a bad player easily win a good one? In Brawl+, tires don exist

 

[Revven]

Kief, the hitbox size increases have only been made to hitboxes that don't work quite well as they should. Zelda's Fair for example, even the slightest movement in someone's standing animation causes the move to miss even if you time it properly. It was THAT sensitive, Bowser's Utilt couldn't hit that well and neither could his Usmash (a move less used by Bowsers because of its terrible size). Ganon's Fair was well explained before, it was only given a SMALL increase, it's barely noticeable. Ganon's Bair takes care of a blind spot he had as well as makes the move a bit more useful in that situation.

The hitboxes aren't expanded so the spacing isn't really changed much. The hitboxes that HAVE been changed, haven't changed at all in spacing so I have no idea why you would think that. Have you tried these hitboxes yet? If you haven't, that would explain why you have a bias and what not.

Anyway, I leave you all with something special:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EV5YlZL-vCc

^****.

 

[Dai Tian]

Kief, the hitbox size increases have only been made to hitboxes that don't work quite well as they should. Zelda's Fair for example, even the slightest movement in someone's standing animation causes the move to miss even if you time it properly. It was THAT sensitive, Bowser's Utilt couldn't hit that well and neither could his Usmash (a move less used by Bowsers because of its terrible size). Ganon's Fair was well explained before, it was only given a SMALL increase, it's barely noticeable. Ganon's Bair takes care of a blind spot he had as well as makes the move a bit more useful in that situation.

The hitboxes aren't expanded so the spacing isn't really changed much. The hitboxes that HAVE been changed, haven't changed at all in spacing so I have no idea why you would think that. Have you tried these hitboxes yet? If you haven't, that would explain why you have a bias and what not.

Anyway, I leave you all with something special:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EV5YlZL-vCc

^****.

That is beautiful. Too good.

 

[timothyung]

Regarding Ness' DJC, are there any other ways to simulate it? Maybe something like this: "Hold jump while doing an attack to DJC"

 

[FrozenHobo]

also, i know we were discussing in the live feed about ICs bthrow -> footstool -> blizzard -> regrab -> hand off -> repeat grab combo. i'd just like to say, it is hard as **** to pull off. getting the footstool requires timing/poor DI on the part of the opponent. i can only get it to work inconsistently on ROB (easiest character for ICs to footstool cg) and that requires near perfect timing for the footstools. no real 'fix' is required for this besides the less suction idea or letting the opponent SDI blizzard.

edit: in its current state, with enough practice it can be done infinitely (finally got to pull it off on ROB. 0-115% before i messed up). its not really a CG per se, but a cool footstool/blizzard combo.

 

[Plum]

Its important to consider how it is MUCH easier and more realistic to buff characters compared to nerfing them.

When you look at top tiers, there is a fine line between great and crap; look at MK for an example on how you can keep nerfing him but he is still top tier material, until a quick fallout where he just became much worse. I'm not a coder myself, but I can imagine how difficult it is to nerf a move for a top tier character without turning it into something useless or actually loosing the moves original purpose.

Where as with the lower tier characters, there is much more leniency when making a move a little better at what it does, or behave like it actually should. I'm sure its still easy to overdo a buff to a move, but the line is much more relaxed when nerfing a move without really hurting it at the same time.

 

[Kief]

What's the difference between everyone top tier and everyone mid tier? The person with better skill still wins. Both the players are playing good characters, so why would a bad player easily win a good one? In Brawl+, tires don exist

Middle 'calibur' characters (what I meant by tier) have a higher learning curve than top calibur characters. Middle of the road characters = higher learning curve = more skill required to win with them = more of a gap between skilled players and not skilled players = better game. You're right tiers dont exist in Brawl+ and hopefully they will never be 'needed' (they'd still be cool to have though ).

Kief, the hitbox size increases have only been made to hitboxes that don't work quite well as they should. Zelda's Fair for example, even the slightest movement in someone's standing animation causes the move to miss even if you time it properly. It was THAT sensitive, Bowser's Utilt couldn't hit that well and neither could his Usmash (a move less used by Bowsers because of its terrible size). Ganon's Fair was well explained before, it was only given a SMALL increase, it's barely noticeable. Ganon's Bair takes care of a blind spot he had as well as makes the move a bit more useful in that situation.

Ah. Well if that's the reason you're changing them then that makes more sense. I didn't know this was the case. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[Swordplay]

Middle 'calibur' characters (what I meant by tier) have a higher learning curve than top calibur characters. Middle of the road characters = higher learning curve = more skill required to win with them = more of a gap between skilled players and not skilled players = better game. You're right tiers dont exist in Brawl+ and hopefully they will never be 'needed' (they'd still be cool to have though ).

This entire paragraph basically is saying you want characters with more depth than they are now........

Depth.........Yawn I'm tired of hearing that word. Its hard enough to balance the game, we can worry about this later in my opinion

 

[Kief]

I just meant having everyone with strengths and weakness that balance them out is better than 40 Lucarios. I don't know what you're getting at with the depth thing. ¬_¬

 

[FrozenHobo]

depth is an inside joke for everyone who was in the footstool arguments... dear god it all was just so stupid....

 

[Kief]

Footstool arguments? I should check this thread more often lol.

 

[CountKaiser]

No, it involved G&W, his chef, people arguing, and walls of baaaw. Let's not relive it.

 

[BurningCrusader777]

Aw no more DJC.
That command tech ALMOST looked useful for a second there <_<

Whatever. The window for DJC aerials was really wierd anyway, especially with uair. Doesn't feel right having to wait a bit after you input the first jump :|

 

[Nybb]

Is it possible to make it so taunting can be done in mid-air? That would be the greatest thing ever imaginable.


Anyway, I'm off to play with the new set now, hopefully I'll be able to get some time playing with real people in the next few days and offer some actual feedback.

depth is an inside joke for everyone who was in the footstool arguments... dear god it all was just so stupid....

Lol, an inside joke...that is an interesting way to describe it. But yeah KIEF, I think most people would generally agree with you that unique characters with pronounced strengths and weaknesses is a good goal. However, actually implementing this is the challenge. I think so far the WBR has been doing a pretty excellent job at this. It's hard to pick out "bad" characters any more, which is awesome. That said, if you have specific suggestions you should definitely say them so they can be discussed.

 

[Wingflier]

Middle 'calibur' characters (what I meant by tier) have a higher learning curve than top calibur characters. Middle of the road characters = higher learning curve = more skill required to win with them = more of a gap between skilled players and not skilled players = better game.

I actually agree with this. Take fox in B+ for example, he is a perfect criteria of a "top tier" character. He requires little to no skill to use effectively, has a very low learning curve, and can combo like crazy just by spamming the same attacks over and over. He has few to any weaknesses, his biggest weakness being that he is a lighter character, and thus can not last as long as say Bowser.

Anybody could play B+ for a week and already own most people with fox. Whereas if that same person who to play with Ike for a week, they wouldn't be anywhere near as good.

What Kief is saying is that maybe we should nerf the best characters instead of buffing the "middle tier" characters. In this way, the game will revolve more around skill and strategy rather than twitch and spamming (fox).

The obvious problem with this is that all the mains of the top tier characters would go apesh*t and complain. Nothing new there.

Wing

 

[BlueFoxXT]

I'd like to delve into another subject again: recoveries

I believe it was in the official 4.1b build that Ivysaur could UP+B multiple times in the air, however in the nightlies he can't. Is there a reason for this? I thought recovery wise it was really good, since tether-specific recoveries tend to be pretty mediocre. So is there a reason for it to have been removed? Was it breaking air combos? Not so much criticizing here, mostly looking to see if there was an answer I'd overlooked.


Link's recovery is still terrible, while I like what's been done with his UP+B offensively, it's primary use still seems like work is needed. Is it possible to give him a bit more of a boost?

Opinions and response encouraged.

BlueFoxXT

 

[Deleted member]

I actually agree with this. Take fox in B+ for example, he is a perfect criteria of a "top tier" character. He requires little to no skill to use effectively, has a very low learning curve, and can combo like crazy just by spamming the same attacks over and over. He has few to any weaknesses, his biggest weakness being that he is a lighter character, and thus can not last as long as say Bowser.

Anybody could play B+ for a week and already own most people with fox. Whereas if that same person who to play with Ike for a week, they wouldn't be anywhere near as good.

What Kief is saying is that maybe we should nerf the best characters instead of buffing the "middle tier" characters. In this way, the game will revolve more around skill and strategy rather than twitch and spamming (fox).

The obvious problem with this is that all the mains of the top tier characters would go apesh*t and complain. Nothing new there.

Wing

I don't think I've ever disagreed with a post so vehemently. Umm, Brawl+ takes very very very little tech skill, other than, say, teching. Anyone can pick up the game in a week and pwn. Anyone, with any character. Not just Fox. And owning "most people"? I doubt it :/

 

[timothyung]

What you are saying is depth again. DDDDEEEEEEEEPPPPPPPTTTTTTTHHHHH.
And yes, Wing is right that you will own most people, because most people are casual players

 

[Wingflier]

I don't think I've ever disagreed with a post so vehemently. Umm, Brawl+ takes very very very little tech skill, other than, say, teching. Anyone can pick up the game in a week and pwn. Anyone, with any character. Not just Fox. And owning "most people"? I doubt it :/

What do you mean, "anyone can pick up the game in a week and pwn?"

That doesn't even make sense. Because if everybody had the same ability to pick up the game and pwn after a week, then nobody would pwn, because they would all pwn each other equally.

My main point was that some characters are extremely easy to learn and **** with, while others take a lot of time, effort, and practice, and still will probably never be on the level of the higher-tier less skill-based characters.

Also, B+ does require a lot more skill than just "teching". SH, DI, SDI, tilts, spot dodging, air dodging and sweetspotting just to name a few. Teching is actually one of the easier techniques in B+ because of the much larger frame window that you can perform it in. So I'm not really sure if you know what you're talking about.

What you are saying is depth again. DDDDEEEEEEEEPPPPPPPTTTTTTTHHHHH.
And yes, Wing is right that you will own most people, because most people are casual players

I didn't say anything about depth, and it would make this community a lot better if you crackheads would just drop that subject altogether. No where did I say that making the characters more evenly balanced towards a "middle-tier" would be adding depth to the game; nor did I imply it in any way.

But yes, I agree with you tim, in general, it probably requires a lot less skill to dominate with fox than most other characters in that game. Fox isn't the only example, he's just one of the best. The original point that KIEF was trying make was that we should make the game more skill-oriented, and less character/matchup based. This could be best accomplished by nerfing the top characters in the game that have 75%+ advantageous matchups (and we know there are many), rather than trying to get all the other characters up to their level.

Because when you start buffing all the low/mid-tier characters up to the insanely high standards that the top characters are already at, you begin to get a massive power inflation that ruins the game. The only way Bowser, for example, could ever be on Fox's level, would be to make him more powerful than anybody would ever want him to be. Nobody is arguing that Bowser is 500x better than he was in vBrawl, but let's compare Fox's matchups to Bowser's, it's no contest.

However, if we brought Fox down to Bowser's level, it would be a lot more feasable because Fox would still be playable, and could have a similar percentage of good/bad matchups as Bowser, albeit against different characters (obviously).

In short, establishing a "happy medium" for which to tweak the balance for all the characters, instead of making them all as godlike as possible (or as close to it without being blatantly ridiculous) is probably a better idea. If it was done this way, it would effectively "eliminate" tiers, and allow the characters to be more tightly knit.

Really, when you think about, the only reason that the top tier characters are there is because people are used to them being so ridiculously good. It's not so much their movesets or some mysterious divine gift handed to them. Through the application of buffs or nerfs, any character could be the best or worst in little to no time at all.

Let's take a look at the best characters in the game: Marth, MK, Snake, Fox, Falco, Wolf, G&W etc.

What do all these characters have in common? Well they are all smaller characters for one. Snake is often mistaken for a "bigger" character but we all know that he is the same size as Marth and acts a lot more like a middle or smaller sized character. He just weighs a ton for no reason.

Another thing they have in common is that they were either extremely powerful in vBrawl, or extremely powerful in Melee. Therefore, people just got used to them being way too good and figured that was the way it is supposed to be. Instead of nerfing them to the level of the other characters, they buffed them even more and tried to make up for this in other ways.

What I think most people don't realize is that most of lesser-tier characters will never be at this level, because nobody expects them to be this good, and would be shocked if they ever were.

Also, Nobody said anything about depth. Making the game more skill-based would not affect "depth" in one way or the other.

Wing

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

yoshi's maaad beaaast
well ok not really but he's pretty good, that guy just needs his out of shield options back, like jumping out of shield and upsmash. other than that I was doing pretty well with yoshi, but maybe it was just the match-ups(jiggs and fox I mostly played against). I think his down b should kill sooner. most people aren't hit with it but if they are it should y'know..send ya somewhere.

 

[timothyung]

I thought more skill-oriented=more depth...
OK don't talk about depth now
I agree with you, we should avoid characters having a match-up ratio more than 75-25, are there any match-ups that are worse than that? 75 would be acceptable because the disadvantaged character still have a decent chance to win, and you can counter pick. But a character should not be always defeated by another

 

[ChronoPenguin]

^wut.
Screw that if you can you aim for at least 65: 35.
If you can't get it even closer.
Counter picking isn't an excuse for balance.
Then again we also should assume that everyone can reach nice pretty match ups either.

 

[timothyung]

I said that because IIRC, 25:75 match-ups are winnable with a little more effort

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Ridonculus amounts of efforts.
65:35 is still a distinct advantage but it's not so stupidly one sided as 25:75.
Anyways this isn't actually important so whatever.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Hey, is Wario's pummel supposed to not do any damage? Cause whenever I pummel with him, it doesn't do anything. And why does the bthrow animation look different?


EDIT: the pummel doesn't work only on fastfallers, or something. the pummel did no damage against CF and ZSS, but worked on Sonic.

 

[Revven]

Hey, is Wario's pummel supposed to not do any damage? Cause whenever I pummel with him, it doesn't do anything. And why does the bthrow animation look different?


EDIT: the pummel doesn't work only on fastfallers, or something. the pummel did no damage against CF and ZSS, but worked on Sonic.

I've never noticed that and I main Wario. I'm pretty sure though that this isn't true... as usually when I pummel CF, I do damage.

In any case, if it IS really true, it's probably a glitch from vBrawl like Samus's pummel. It's nothing we can really fix... it has to deal with how fast the pummel is. Look at Samus and pummel Bowser to see what I mean (and probably with how WEAK the pummel is). No sense in fixing something if it just doesn't do anything on some characters and it does on others as on those it DOES affect it would only do more damage...

IIRC, Samus's jab does like less than 2% maybe less than 1%. Wario's I'm unsure of, something I have to look at.

 

[timothyung]

Don't pummels have hitboxes? Can we increase the size of it?

 

[Deleted member]

What do you mean, "anyone can pick up the game in a week and pwn?"

That doesn't even make sense. Because if everybody had the same ability to pick up the game and pwn after a week, then nobody would pwn, because they would all pwn each other equally.

If you say that someone can pick up Fox in a week and ****, I would say that the only people this person would **** would be absolute noobs. You're trying to say Fox is easy mode. Maybe Fox is easy mode in a relative sense, but since Brawl+ doesn't require tech skill, every character is easy to pick up and play, and if you somehow play Ike Day 1, and randomly understand how to use him, you could easily **** just as hard if you were knowledgeable of the previous Smash games.

My main point was that some characters are extremely easy to learn and **** with, while others take a lot of time, effort, and practice, and still will probably never be on the level of the higher-tier less skill-based characters

You could probably have made this argument in Melee, where bad characters had to not miss a single l-cancel to keep up with the likes of Fox. But not in Brawl+.

Also, B+ does require a lot more skill than just "teching". SH, DI, SDI, tilts, spot dodging, air dodging and sweetspotting just to name a few. Teching is actually one of the easier techniques in B+ because of the much larger frame window that you can perform it in. So I'm not really sure if you know what you're talking about.

I taught my girlfriend those techniques in one day of playing Brawl+. They aren't hard to learn and half of them are common sense. Survival techs, like wall techs and techs when you get shot at like an 85 degree angle - these require a little bit of quick thinking, but they are not physically demanding. I've never played Brawl+ and felt I was not good enough to perform a move. Trained monkeys could do these.

I didn't say anything about depth, and it would make this community a lot better if you crackheads would just drop that subject altogether. No where did I say that making the characters more evenly balanced towards a "middle-tier" would be adding depth to the game; nor did I imply it in any way.

Would you rather a shallow game?

But yes, I agree with you tim, in general, it probably requires a lot less skill to dominate with fox than most other characters in that game. Fox isn't the only example, he's just one of the best. The original point that KIEF was trying make was that we should make the game more skill-oriented, and less character/matchup based. This could be best accomplished by nerfing the top characters in the game that have 75%+ advantageous matchups (and we know there are many), rather than trying to get all the other characters up to their level.

Just to finish this up - perhaps Fox's move link nicely, perhaps his moves all have utility and perhaps his moves may be a tad too strong. Whatever, we can fix that. However, the Brawl+ dev-team has made significant buffs and nerfs to all characters, making nearly every character viable. Fox is not more or less "skill-oriented" than Bowser. They both share the same techniques. Perhaps it's just easier to understand how Fox plays - Bowser may seem clunky to some, but **** to others.

 

[cAm8ooo]

Don't pummels have hitboxes? Can we increase the size of it?

Whats the point of increasing a hitbox that is guaranteed to hit? I dont think the problem lies with the hitbox, other wise samus wouldnt be able to hit small characters. Instead bowser is the only character that doesnt take damage from her pummel. It's just a glitch and probably not fixable inless you increased how much damage the pummel did and then use the frame speed mod (if possible) to slow her pummel down to get about the same amount of damage.

Sounds like too much work for me. Especially since we are running out of space on the frame speeds.

 

[timothyung]

I'm just thinking that the glitch might be fixed by increasing the hitbox size of her pummel.

 

[Heroes_Never_Die]

Hey, is Wario's pummel supposed to not do any damage? Cause whenever I pummel with him, it doesn't do anything. And why does the bthrow animation look different?


EDIT: the pummel doesn't work only on fastfallers, or something. the pummel did no damage against CF and ZSS, but worked on Sonic.

Are you using custom textures? If so, which texture and on which color?

I've had this glitch happen before, but with Tuxedo Wario ONLY.

Edit: I just tested this quick to confirm, and replicated the glitch. You can't put Tuxedo Wario on any of the overalls colors, only on his biker colors, otherwise his grab pummel glitches. Hopefully this was the answer you were looking for.