Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[kupo15]

@kupo:

That sounds like a crazy awesome team strategy. While leaving yourself open for a gimp, you can jump out and let your teammate land on you to recover. I would recommend the FSJ hight be lowered, however, so it doesn't become a broken strategy.

That still doesn't solve the problem of the horrible input, however.

Well, you can replace the footstool jump height with a double jump height. It may not solve the input problem but at least the result is what you want. Its still a double jump like you planned except you still have your other double jump stored.

EDIT: I personally would rather footstools be removed completely

 

[smasher32]

Would anybody cared if Footstools were just erased? Not me. There aren't any characters that actually RELY on Footstools.

I'd say leave it in. If it was mapped to a different button, then at least it's in there.

Well, it could be used for as an interrupter to attacks, shields, etc...but that sounds stupid.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

FSJ height being lowered to a characters normal double jump height is no problem to me.
But then again, keeping it the same height isn't an issue either, since it's greater than the normal height.
For you fellows perhaps, but the increased height from an FSJ has never cost me anything.

 

[kupo15]

Separate inputs or removal would be ideal but I'm pretty sure you can just replace the footstool jump for the attacker with their double jump using the Conditional action mod. It should have enough lines to be able to do it.

But IMO if you want to add depth to brawl, I think that removing the spike from it and replacing the footstool jump with a double jump would benefit the game. If you try it out, you will have a blast

 

[trojanpooh]

I like footstooling, but as long the code can be turned off without breaking anything, I don't care.

 

[CloneHat]

FSJ height being lowered to a characters normal double jump height is no problem to me.
But then again, keeping it the same height isn't an issue either, since it's greater than the normal height.
For you fellows perhaps, but the increased height from an FSJ has never cost me anything.

It costs precision and control, to name a few.

Separate inputs or removal would be ideal but I'm pretty sure you can just replace the footstool jump for the attacker with their double jump using the Conditional action mod. It should have enough lines to be able to do it

Can I have a link or something? I can't find the code anywhere, and I probably wouldn't be able to replace footstool with double jump.

 

[BeepBopRobot]

Id rather footstooling were mapped to a different button.

That way people wont unintentionally footstool, and people who wanted to intentionally footstool still can.


If its impossible to map it to a different button, however, then i would rather have it removed.

This is because as somebody said earlier in the thread, its more comical bull****, and i personally find it to be more of a problem then a tool to use purposefully.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

I've never felt a loss of control from FSJing, I can only mentally conjure up a few situations where FSJ'ing is a negative occurrence.

 

[FrozenHobo]

i can't believe most people haven't realized this (its been said enough times you'd think they'd read it SOMEWHERE), but the footstool action is mapped to a FUNCTION, not a button. right now footstooling is mapped to the jump function, which means you can change the jump button to anything else, it'll still make you footstool. thats how it works. another function, not another button.

 

[BeepBopRobot]

I've never felt a loss of control from FSJing, I can only mentally conjure up a few situations where FSJ'ing is a negative occurrence.

Arent a few situations enough, though, to make it mapped to a different fuction so it could only be done intentionally?

 

[SymphonicSage12]

I'd rather have it removed, personally. The cons outweigh the pros IMO. looks both ways

 

[kupo15]

Can I have a link or something? I can't find the code anywhere, and I probably wouldn't be able to replace footstool with double jump.

sure, give me one sec

 

[Blank Mauser]

Theres no need to remove footstool, its got plenty of practical applications. Kirby's Dair Footstool, Pika's Uair Footstool, Link's bomb footstool, Sonic's up-B footstool recovery on edgehogging people.

While I'm fine with adding more options, the idea that the game is cheating you is just a tired argument. An unpredictable element should only catch you off-guard once, any more and its just your own fault. Also Leaf, I was against 1 frame buffer back when we couldn't let players choose.

If I were to map footstool I'd give it to the X or Y button, but I don't feel its a problem in itself. How easy it is to do footstools isn't a problem either.

 

[kupo15]

While I'm fine with adding more options, the idea that the game is cheating you is just a tired argument.
.

Its a true problem and a great argument. Unnecessary lack of control is unacceptable. This game was built on the premise of the game cheating you so that it makes it really hard to be consistent and so that the game is "always different" as opposed to melee or 64 where you have so much control and you have to be really precise. Brawl was built on the concept of winning with luck while the past two was built on the concept of winning with skill. Sakurai confirmed this in his interview.

An unpredictable element should only catch you off-guard once, any more and its just your own fault.

Well then please answer me this. How are you supposed to prepare for an unpredictable element and mechanic when its just that....unpredictable?

 

[leafgreen386]

I've never felt a loss of control from FSJing, I can only mentally conjure up a few situations where FSJ'ing is a negative occurrence.

The fact that you can think of any is what makes it a problem. If you can think of even a single situation in which you'd rather use a DJ than a footstool, it's reason enough to make the change.

i can't believe most people haven't realized this (its been said enough times you'd think they'd read it SOMEWHERE), but the footstool action is mapped to a FUNCTION, not a button. right now footstooling is mapped to the jump function, which means you can change the jump button to anything else, it'll still make you footstool. thats how it works. another function, not another button.

Semantics. You know what we mean we say "jump button." We mean whatever button you currently use to jump, be it X, Y, up, or a non-standard button like L, R, A, B or Z. We are all perfectly aware it is a "function" of pressing the button mapped to "jump." We want to remove that function from jump and place it somewhere else.

 

[Hyrus]

Theres no need to remove footstool, its got plenty of practical applications. Kirby's Dair Footstool, Pika's Uair Footstool, Link's bomb footstool, Sonic's up-B footstool recovery on edgehogging people.

No one's saying that it isn't usable. They're saying it isn't practical for competitive play due to the variables surrounding the technique.

An unpredictable element should only catch you off-guard once, any more and its just your own fault.

Let me get this straight. An unpredictable element should only catch me off guard once?

 

[Swordplay]

Footstools MAKE YOSHI CRY!!!!!!!! (Yoshi would be awesome with no footstools)


I think footstools add depth but I don't like them because I play Yoshi+ (Footstools are detrimental to him being a **** character)

=============

Edit: SHUTUP......I know thats not a very good reason......but its my reason :/

 

[KayJay]

I can't beleive this,.. so many pages just for footstool cry and noone trys to see that samus's jab has the right to get a fix which would not be broken cause any other character can rely on his jabs.

FSJ is just fine, it never gets me in a bad position when I do it unlike tripping.

 

[Bladefist137]

Play as Yoshi and tell me if footstool is still fine
Other characters can handle it because they have at least a reliable recovery move or multiple jumps, as Yoshi all you can do is . . . . . fall to your death :/

 

[FrozenHobo]

then ask for a fix to his up b. less tumble time (is that right?) would also fix a lot of gimp problems.

 

[Bladefist137]

Chances are slim that they all do that m8
All they gonna do it reply back with: Yoshi is fine. Believe me thats what everybody says when you ask about Yoshi's problems. But asking for too many buffs isn't good either, i have learned that the hard way lol

 

[BurningCrusader777]

Is it possible to lower hitstun on individual moves?

Because as it stands, Fox can dair loop some characters starting at 50% (or lower, haven't checked).

 

[leafgreen386]

Is it possible to lower hitstun on individual moves?

Because as it stands, Fox can dair loop some characters starting at 50% (or lower, haven't checked).

It's known. It actually works much lower than that. You can SDI out of it, though, and at low percents it requires very strict timing.

Hitstun is related directly to a move's knockback, so we could edit fox's dair to have less stun by reducing its kb (which has been done in the past, but people hated it).

 

[JCaesar]

Can you footstool someone while they're airdodging?

I'm pretty sure the answer is no (though I admit I haven't tested it myself), but assuming that's true, then if a Yoshi player gets footstool-gimped, it was definitely avoidable and is entirely their own fault that they didn't avoid it, since Yoshi can airdodge at any point during his 2nd jump and not even lose momentum.

 

[Arkaether]

No, you can't. That's why the Yoshi thread advises AD during his second jump in order to avoid the footstool gimp problems. Of course, what with AD lag and the fact that it makes his recovery really predictable, they're still not very happy.

 

[CountKaiser]

Hmmm, would it be possible to give Yoshi's upB more of a hop? That may solve some of his recovery woes.

 

[Swordplay]

Can you footstool someone while they're airdodging?

I'm pretty sure the answer is no (though I admit I haven't tested it myself), but assuming that's true, then if a Yoshi player gets footstool-gimped, it was definitely avoidable and is entirely their own fault that they didn't avoid it, since Yoshi can airdodge at any point during his 2nd jump and not even lose momentum.

No, you can't. That's why the Yoshi thread advises AD during his second jump in order to avoid the footstool gimp problems. Of course, what with AD lag and the fact that it makes his recovery really predictable, they're still not very happy.

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!! You don't understand at all.....NONE of you do. Yoshi players understand that but that's NOT really the problem. Honestly.....................I'll forgive you because you probably don't play yoshi and don't understand the scenario......

You don't get momentum if you AD during the startup of the up-b (where the problem is) because there is a long startup time. Everyone knows you can AD at the middle or end of the move and be fine.........But good players try to footstool yoshi during his start up because he can't go anywhere and its easier to do.

I think a really good fix to this would be to just not allow footstools during super armor frames. That way he can at least get momentum going.But thats just an opinion.

I brought back another suggestion of giving him his 2nd jump back if he gets footstooled but I think the 1st Idea is better.

 

[stingers]

What the...why would you remove footstool?

Anyone who thought that was a good idea needs to reconsider their position in the WBR...

 

[lord karn]

I have no trouble recovering with Yoshi. In fact, I find his recovery to be at least above average. Perhaps the other B+ players in NC just don't know how to exploit it. However, it seems to me that if you recover high or low and cover yourself with an upair before your jump Yoshi can guard against footstool enough to at least not make them '****' his recovery. However, I'm all for buffs to Yoshi. @_@

The only problem I have found with Yoshi is that it seems that his game revolves almost completely around his backair. If the opponent has a fast high priority aerial (hello metaknight) that goes through his bair, he loses the matchup. Conversely, if they don't have such a move Yoshi seems to have an advantage. However, I think I might not be using Yoshi's grab as well as I should and that might counter those types of characters.

 

[Hyrus]

What the...why would you remove footstool? Anyone who thought that was a good idea needs to reconsider their position in the WBR...

Discussions require logical reasoning and examples, not derogatory accusations.

 

[Blank Mauser]

No one's saying that it isn't usable. They're saying it isn't practical for competitive play due to the variables surrounding the technique.

Let me get this straight. An unpredictable element should only catch me off guard once?

And I'm saying its definitely practical, and its uses are many.

Not knowing about the footstool range is only excusable once, after that then you should be wary of it.

Its a true problem and a great argument. Unnecessary lack of control is unacceptable. This game was built on the premise of the game cheating you so that it makes it really hard to be consistent and so that the game is "always different" as opposed to melee or 64 where you have so much control and you have to be really precise. Brawl was built on the concept of winning with luck while the past two was built on the concept of winning with skill. Sakurai confirmed this in his interview.
Well then please answer me this. How are you supposed to prepare for an unpredictable element and mechanic when its just that....unpredictable?

You guys over-exaggerate its unpredictability way too much. Point being, just because the range and button input makes it easier for you or other people to make a mistake, doesn't mean it needs immediate attention. The game is not pressing buttons for you.

Some of these changes are just a little over-excessive and really I'd only excuse the change because it adds an option. Nothing game-changing, but an option nonetheless.

 

[stingers]

There needs to be a logical reason to remove something already in the game. Which I've yet to see.

Though I'm just messing with leaf. He's very smart

 

[CRASHiC]

DDDs new Nair works well as a wall and aids to his gimping game.

 

[leafgreen386]

There needs to be a logical reason to remove something already in the game. Which I've yet to see.

Though I'm just messing with leaf. He's very smart

The logical reason is that it's not removing anything, but it is adding something. I actually haven't argued at all to remove footstooling from the game, just to map it to a different button, making footstools activated by the taunt button (which can be configured to anything thanks to the unrestricted control editing code).

 

[Yingyay]

The logical reason is that it's not removing anything, but it is adding something. I actually haven't argued at all to remove footstooling from the game, just to map it to a different button, making footstools activated by the taunt button (which can be configured to anything thanks to the unrestricted control editing code).

So what are you waiting for? Do It! I'd like to see legit footstools that are done on purpose. lol although it might give people a reason to mash taunt in the air.

Captain falcon should be able to down-taunt in mid-air btw

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Its a true problem and a great argument. Unnecessary lack of control is unacceptable. This game was built on the premise of the game cheating you so that it makes it really hard to be consistent and so that the game is "always different" as opposed to melee or 64 where you have so much control and you have to be really precise. Brawl was built on the concept of winning with luck while the past two was built on the concept of winning with skill. Sakurai confirmed this in his interview.
Well then please answer me this. How are you supposed to prepare for an unpredictable element and mechanic when its just that....unpredictable?

Footstool jumping isn't upredictable to say it is, is foolishness. To say other things such as "it's easy to accidentally do" is one thing, to say it's an unpredictable random occurrence is bull ****.
Unlike our friend tripping you don't randomly Footstool jump, you have to be in the position by your opponent to cause the effect. Never random, NEVER unpredictable.

The fact that you can think of any is what makes it a problem. If you can think of even a single situation in which you'd rather use a DJ than a footstool, it's reason enough to make the change.

I can THINK of situations where I rather FSJ than Double Jump.
That doesn't mean they should be separate.
In fact it mean's I should watch my spacing and positioning more to cause whichever effect I want, when I require it. The only Issue is FSJ is harder to cause than a double jump. People have SURVIVED because of FSJ's were a DJ would fail them, not bringing them to the ledge.
Does this mean it needs to be mapped to another button? No.
The FSJ is an extension of the Double Jump, meant to improve the height of the jump while simultaneously putting your opponent in a bad position by causing a meteor smash.
If you LOST a stock because you Footstool'd jump there's an issue, and it's not the jump.
Considering that Brawl+ fast falls and natural gravity are improved, it's not even the same issue you would have in vbrawl.

Semantics. You know what we mean we say "jump button." We mean whatever button you currently use to jump, be it X, Y, up, or a non-standard button like L, R, A, B or Z. We are all perfectly aware it is a "function" of pressing the button mapped to "jump." We want to remove that function from jump and place it somewhere else.

You feel that it should be on a separate button. I feel it shouldn't.
It's not WRONG to test your idea, but to make it in say the brawl plussery as an brawl+ standard is were the issue lies. I don't even want to bring this to testing because of any chance this would become a standard. Theres reasons this should not occur, and there would be reasons why FSJ is COMPLETELY obsolete or quite necessary depending on the balance of Brawl+.
Yet we are so busy talking about this function that the balance of characters is being put aside.

Footstools MAKE YOSHI CRY!!!!!!!! (Yoshi would be awesome with no footstools)
I think footstools add depth but I don't like them because I play Yoshi+ (Footstools are detrimental to him being a **** character)

I play both Yoshi and Ganondorf in both vbrawl and Brawl+
Footstool jumping is not an issue. If anything it's more of an issue when playing Ganondorf merely because the "tricks" I can use to get around that function as Yoshi wouldn't work as Ganondorf, and in some ways would be suicidal.
For instance Ganondorf's Double Jump is not Yoshi's, If he air dodges during it, he can actually hamper himself. Where as with Yoshi even if I AD at the very beginning of the jump I still get more than enough momentum to make a difference most of the time.
Attacking with Yoshi while rising is also a way to get past, but to attack as Ganondorf instead of recovering, can sometimes mean the lag of your aerial will cause the recovery attempts you try AFTERWARDS to fail because you've lost to much distance, or they've now been able to get into an edgehogging position.
Rather it's better for him to just recover, and not worry about a FSJ which he can just ^B out of.

The logical reason is that it's not removing anything, but it is adding something. I actually haven't argued at all to remove footstooling from the game, just to map it to a different button, making footstools activated by the taunt button (which can be configured to anything thanks to the unrestricted control editing code).

But this is based on YOU, Kupu and a few others saying that you find FSJ being mapped to jumping disadvantageous and in some cases FSJ existing at ALL a problem.
Where as others DO NOT have a problem with it being on the jump button.
So your wanting the norm to be YOUR opinion on the matter, and force everyone else to it, despite it being a controversial opinion.

If it could be done that you could CHOOSE whether it was separate or not that way you fellows could not accidentally FSJ but those who want it to remain on their button could, I would not have an issue with this. I don't mean just not implementing the code, but that say P1 has FSJ separate and P2 does not.
Brawl has been out for a year now and your asking for a chance of the jumping function.
And you feel people would be alright with this?

 

[FrozenHobo]

^^
<3 Chrono

especially the last part.

 

[Yingyay]

@ Chrono: Honestly speaking tho, if FSJ was assigned to a taunt, would that really discourage FSJing? Im not sure if this is the point you're trying to portray but it sounds to me like you want to be able to mash jump when you're recovering and the person should get FS'ed, even if you didnt mean for it to happen its the opponents fault for letting gravity put them underneath you. Besides, having FSJ on taunt would allow more control over a footstool. Plus in a team match it would prevent accidental footstools. Assuming you play team matches.

 

[Bladefist137]

If the footstool jump to a specific button change is going to be made, I would say the taunt buttons would be best to use since they have absolutely no other function in the air assuming you don't use costume control settings and this also eliminates the needs for a completely new code to prevent you/team-mates to accidently footstool you/team-mates

 

[JCaesar]

Hmm this Chrono guy is pretty smart... He said what I was thinking.

If FSJing got moved to a different button, especially the D-pad which you can't even press if you wanna be in control of your character, it will never ever be used again. This only removes depth from the game. Who are we, Sakurai? Like Chrono said, you might accidentally FSJ sometimes, but it is never random and never unpredictable. You only accidentally do it because you don't have enough experience to know on instinct which situations it will happen.

And seeing as Yoshi has some of the best aerial mobility in the game and a huge second jump during which he can airdodge at any time with no penalty, I really just don't buy the argument that FSJing makes his recovery suck. There are plenty of other reasons why Yoshi is a mediocre character but that's not one of them.