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[Bladefist137]

Hmm this Chrono guy is pretty smart... He said what I was thinking.

If FSJing got moved to a different button, especially the D-pad which you can't even press if you wanna be in control of your character, it will never ever be used again. This only removes depth from the game. Who are we, Sakurai? Like Chrono said, you might accidentally FSJ sometimes, but it is never random and never unpredictable. You only accidentally do it because you don't have enough experience to know on instinct which situations it will happen.

And seeing as Yoshi has some of the best aerial mobility in the game and a huge second jump during which he can airdodge at any time with no penalty, I really just don't buy the argument that FSJing makes his recovery suck. There are plenty of other reasons why Yoshi is a mediocre character but that's not one of them.

the problem is not getting footstooled during 2nd jump+AD, It's when you try to get back with UpB. Thats the moment they seize to litterally stomp Yoshi in the face causing him to fall to his death

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

that word depth is thrown around a lot that imo, it no longer has a meaning.

 

[FrozenHobo]

the problem is not getting footstooled during 2nd jump+AD, It's when you try to get back with UpB. Thats the moment they seize to litterally stomp Yoshi in the face causing him to fall to his death

but that in itself requires placement/timing. it just gives you more reason to fight to stay on the stage.

 

[metaXzero]

Hmm this Chrono guy is pretty smart... He said what I was thinking.

If FSJing got moved to a different button, especially the D-pad which you can't even press if you wanna be in control of your character, it will never ever be used again. This only removes depth from the game. Who are we, Sakurai? Like Chrono said, you might accidentally FSJ sometimes, but it is never random and never unpredictable. You only accidentally do it because you don't have enough experience to know on instinct which situations it will happen.

And seeing as Yoshi has some of the best aerial mobility in the game and a huge second jump during which he can airdodge at any time with no penalty, I really just don't buy the argument that FSJing makes his recovery suck. There are plenty of other reasons why Yoshi is a mediocre character but that's not one of them.

Removing depth would be making Footstools impossible. If it's set to another button and people just CHOOSE not to use it, no depth is lost. If anything depth is gained since players have more control of their jumping and both FSJ and DJ don't take each others spots.

 

[Bladefist137]

but that in itself requires placement/timing. it just gives you more reason to fight to stay on the stage.

But you'll have to admit that you can't stay on stage forever right?
Sooner or later you will get knocked/thrown off stage and thats where it starts unless you opponent sucks badly and I mean really really bad

 

[goodoldganon]

that word depth is thrown around a lot that imo, it no longer has a meaning.

Agreed

Everyone thinks by using the word depth on the end of their idea I'll suddenly get wet and think of accepting it.

 

[FrozenHobo]

But you'll have to admit that you can't stay on stage forever right?
Sooner or later you will get knocked/thrown off stage and thats where it starts unless you opponent sucks badly and I mean really really bad

sooner or later, yes, but ideally you'll be able to dominate them before that point comes. additionally, if you do get smashed then DIing up should help eliminate getting gimped. while there is the possibility of getting shot down, eggs can still be used to protect yourself from above. i don't play yoshi (anymore) but i would think that eggs would help elevate SOME of the pressure from above.

DEPTH!

 

[ChronoPenguin]

But you'll have to admit that you can't stay on stage forever right?
Sooner or later you will get knocked/thrown off stage and thats where it starts unless you opponent sucks badly and I mean really really bad

Your doing it wrong.
You shouldn't be getting FSJ'd during an egg toss.
Considering anyone who is coming to gimp you, comes in charging towards you as you recover towards the stage (also towards them), your back isn't a target. The Egg toss covers a fair bit of your front (relatively) and above you.
The timing for someone to actually get an FSJ off that way during an egg toss....well wtf dude.
They would have to Air dodge pass your Egg toss, otherwise the knock back and small amount of stun would prevent them from catching up to yoshi, as he continues to recover.
If you did your egg toss properly if they air dodge by the time the lag of the AD is over, YOUR GONE. That or your now high enough (remember the boost), leveled with them or well face it, PASS THEM and a FSJ is now no longer possible.
You must be facing some real smart cookies, because well, thats not when I see a FSJ attempt.
Most people realize that if they F up, it's an egg to the face and Yoshi gets PAST them and if they don't get back in time, HE gets to attempt a gimp.

You would never use your DJ unsafely as yoshi anyways, which mean's you ALWAYS have it when your recovering (it's basically the standard), the same for Ness and Lucas. This mean's if you DI up (granted it's not a straight horizontal or spike hit), you can easily DJ high and then well from then, you not getting to the stage is unlikely.

Removing depth would be making Footstools impossible. If it's set to another button and people just CHOOSE not to use it, no depth is lost. If anything depth is gained since players have more control of their jumping and both FSJ and DJ don't take each others spots.

And I can counter by saying removing depth is making a character need to think less about positioning than they have to know.
As many have said already, they FSJ BY ACCIDENT, this mean's they're positioning wasn't right.
So if they did an FSJ when they didn't want to, they didn't space/position themselves properly in relation to their opponent.
By making FSJ it's own button, people can give LESS of a ****, by people I mean those who don't want to FSJ because the average person doesn't care.
However these fellows do, and because they do your simply allowing them to not have to worry about positioning themselves to prevent a FSJ again.
Positioning is a KEY part of this and many if not ALL fighters, if people find they would be in a NEGATIVE situation by FSJ'ing then they need to stay aware of their positioning and as such NOT FSJ.

Making it a separate button just mean's you don't have to be warry.
Those who do intentionally FSJ are hindered by having to now having to memorize a god **** knew button, so that they can incorporate it into their game. That which people who don't give a **** about FSJ don't have to.

I feel no reason to take away an aspect of positioning when it doesn't have to be.
FSJ is not an issue of balance it's a matter of preference.
I don't agree with changing the default setup I and others are comfortable with at this moment for this alien concept.


Any Yoshi worth his salt knows about the threat of FSJ and takes measures to prevent them. Accidents happen and a FSJ may go through but considering that even those who think Yoshi is highly prone to FSJ's don't go for it because they worry about messing up or eating a U-air don't do it often.
So you'll often run into this happening "Whoa...I messed up, he COULD'VE FSJ'd me, guess I got lucky!" than "He FSJ'd me"


Anyways I want to move on back to the characters themselves.

I suggested yesterday I believe that Yoshi's for his ^B be changed to his 5th toss, so that even after the 5th (so 6th toss, 7th, every other toss thus after, since they all give NO BOOST) give the same boost as the 5th toss.
The 5th toss is incredibly poor for recovery that's not it's purpose, it's purpose would be for Edge cancelled eggs.
Double Jumping and tossing an egg just really doesn't work here, so ideally the 5th toss becomes the absolute minimum for yoshi's toss so he can forever ECE granted the opponent doesn't interfere.

The 5th toss actually really gives no vertical height and if it does it's so insignificant your not going to realize it. Instead it appears more so that Yoshi's vertical momentum just stops during the toss.

This would improve his ledge game a bit.

I'd also like to see his Egg roll have some greater horizontal momentum in the air if possible.
It moves slightly in the air currently it be nice if like Squirtles >B, Sonic's and I Wario, there was some recovery option from it. It does not have to be at their level, but some momentum would be nice.

It's already been made so that he does not go into free fall after Egg roll, making it a recovery option and able to approach an opponent on the stage from the air (though this would be a flawed tactic considering the speed it takes for him to fall and to get into the egg in the first place) would be quite beneficial and add some,,,flavor and purpose to the attack.

That's probably all those yoshi talk you'll here from me for awhile (unless someone brings something up >.<) other than his dtilt hitbox being corrected (but someones already said they'll look into it).

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

now explain to me, how is footstooling depth? in vbrawl, footstooling added to the metagame because tumbling from a footstool was untechable and set-up well for some infinites (fhanfhus, an AT for falcon mains in vbrawl, or the IC's cg, not sure what its called). but I really see no depth to footstooling in b+. now im not saying take it out or leave it in, im just saying that footstooling doesn't have depth. idc if you keep it or not. id prefer not having it at all but just stop saying that **** has depth.

 

[FrozenHobo]

1. DEPTH!

2. it still has the ability to setup combos (see: GHNeko's vid). while removing it isn't detrimental to gameplay, it still is another supporting argument for people saying "rawr, its Melee 2.0".

3. its 'hinderance' to gameplay can be helped by tightening the area/sweetspot that it takes to activate it AS WELL AS decreasing how high it makes you jump.

4. if it is possible to make it so you can turn on/off footstools then that would be a good compromise, i think.

5. DEPTH!

 

[JCaesar]

There are quite a few characters who can combo out of a FSJ, and even more who can at least set up for a tech chase. It can also be used as a high-risk high-reward spike for a character who doesn't have one, or as a recovery boost in certain situations. I don't want to see all these options disappear.

I would have no problem with optional footstools. Just please don't map it to the D-pad, it's an unusable button since your left thumb should never leave the control stick when you're actually doing something.

I'd like to see optional auto-jabs too. I ****ing hate auto-jabs, they're such a pain to work around.

 

[leafgreen386]

I can THINK of situations where I rather FSJ than Double Jump.
That doesn't mean they should be separate.
In fact it mean's I should watch my spacing and positioning more to cause whichever effect I want, when I require it. The only Issue is FSJ is harder to cause than a double jump. People have SURVIVED because of FSJ's were a DJ would fail them, not bringing them to the ledge.
Does this mean it needs to be mapped to another button? No.
The FSJ is an extension of the Double Jump, meant to improve the height of the jump while simultaneously putting your opponent in a bad position by causing a meteor smash.
If you LOST a stock because you Footstool'd jump there's an issue, and it's not the jump.
Considering that Brawl+ fast falls and natural gravity are improved, it's not even the same issue you would have in vbrawl.

It's not really a matter of losing a stock (although that could certainly happen given a particularly unlucky scenario). It can screw up your edgeguard, though. Most recoveries are good enough to make it back from being footstooled.

You feel that it should be on a separate button. I feel it shouldn't.
It's not WRONG to test your idea, but to make it in say the brawl plussery as an brawl+ standard is were the issue lies. I don't even want to bring this to testing because of any chance this would become a standard. Theres reasons this should not occur, and there would be reasons why FSJ is COMPLETELY obsolete or quite necessary depending on the balance of Brawl+.

I hope you realize that pretty much everything in early brawl+ was done somewhat arbitrarily, largely rooted in opinions rather than hard fact. When a code was made, it was tested, adapted, and ultimately either refined or thrown out. You're afraid of it being tested because it could become a standard... oh really? That's amazing that you're against something being tested simply because you disagree with the idea, itself! I really can't say anything to that except... suck it up. I was furious when the HAD code was made, but I dealt with it and let it undergo testing. Much to my pleasure, the code was eventually rejected.

Yet we are so busy talking about this function that the balance of characters is being put aside.

It's really a sure sign that you're losing an argument when you have to resort to comments like this.

But this is based on YOU, Kupu and a few others saying that you find FSJ being mapped to jumping disadvantageous and in some cases FSJ existing at ALL a problem.
Where as others DO NOT have a problem with it being on the jump button.
So your wanting the norm to be YOUR opinion on the matter, and force everyone else to it, despite it being a controversial opinion.

Although you might not mind losing the option to perform a DJ when you're close to your opponent, I don't think that's acceptable. You're not losing any options by changing the button that activates the footstool. You're gaining the option to DJ when near an opponent. And the argument that "you should learn to space" is irrelevant. We know how to space. We know not to jump within a certain area if we don't want a footstool. My question is... why can't you DJ here if you want to? Why are you forced to footstool or not jump at all? Opening up the option of DJing near your opponent would let chars use their DJ for spacing better (you know... like they did in melee and 64), and also as a more effective baiting tool (particularly for OOS options). The way footstools work right now force you to take a different (often riskier) angle on edgeguarding your opponent to prevent you from footstooling instead of actually carrying out what you want to. It needlessly removes options, when it could quite easily simply be mapped to a different button.

If it could be done that you could CHOOSE whether it was separate or not that way you fellows could not accidentally FSJ but those who want it to remain on their button could, I would not have an issue with this. I don't mean just not implementing the code, but that say P1 has FSJ separate and P2 does not.
Brawl has been out for a year now and your asking for a chance of the jumping function.
And you feel people would be alright with this?

Well, brawl has been out for a year now and people have been ok with a change to the sweetspotting functions of the ledge, raising and simultaneously changing the way hitstun acts (you can no longer attack or airdodge out of hitstun), removing tripping (but we've all learned to deal with it, right!?), editing the specific gravities of different characters, reducing the default buffer (remember, at one point brawl+ used a universal buffer of 1 or 2), making the powershielding window smaller, and removing fast falling from the cstick. We have completely changed the way some characters play. Now, you're suggesting that people would have trouble adapting to a small change like activating footstools with a different button?

Hmm this Chrono guy is pretty smart... He said what I was thinking.

If FSJing got moved to a different button, especially the D-pad which you can't even press if you wanna be in control of your character, it will never ever be used again. This only removes depth from the game. Who are we, Sakurai? Like Chrono said, you might accidentally FSJ sometimes, but it is never random and never unpredictable. You only accidentally do it because you don't have enough experience to know on instinct which situations it will happen.

Uh... I think I've mentioned several times that this would be used in combination with the unrestricted control editing code. The footstool action wouldn't be mapped to the +pad. It would be mapped to the taunt button, which could be any button on your controller that you would like.

 

[stingers]

Uh... I think I've mentioned several times that this would be used in combination with the unrestricted control editing code. The footstool action wouldn't be mapped to the +pad. It would be mapped to the taunt button, which could be any button on your controller that you would like.

Imagine how much of a pain in the *** that will make tournaments.

 

[jokey665]

like they did in melee

Melee 2.0 confirmed.

 

[TK Wolf]

the problem is not getting footstooled during 2nd jump+AD, It's when you try to get back with UpB. Thats the moment they seize to litterally stomp Yoshi in the face causing him to fall to his death

I don't have much experience with B+ yet, and even less with Yoshi, but is this much different than the problems Ivy and Olimar face when tether-recovering? It kinda seems like something you just have to deal with as that character...

But with the increased gravity, it does seem like speeding up the tumble animation might be a good thing... though again, I haven't messed with it too much.

 

[FrozenHobo]

Well, brawl has been out for a year now and people have been ok with a change to the sweetspotting functions of the ledge, raising and simultaneously changing the way hitstun acts (you can no longer attack or airdodge out of hitstun), removing tripping (but we've all learned to deal with it, right!?), editing the specific gravities of different characters, reducing the default buffer (remember, at one point brawl+ used a universal buffer of 1 or 2), making the powershielding window smaller, and removing fast falling from the cstick. We have completely changed the way some characters play. Now, you're suggesting that people would have trouble adapting to a small change like activating footstools with a different button?

um... all of that stuff was standard in melee.... thats why nobody had 'trouble' adjusting to it, because we already have been doing that stuff. footstooling is new to smash and we've only had a small amount of time by comparison to work with it.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

I'm going to ask something now.
Is the spike of a FSJ problematic?

 

[FrozenHobo]

question: is it possible to make the ICs capable of footstooling each other?you could do it in the original game and it could be pretty cool in b+.

 

[JCaesar]

Uh... I think I've mentioned several times that this would be used in combination with the unrestricted control editing code. The footstool action wouldn't be mapped to the +pad. It would be mapped to the taunt button, which could be any button on your controller that you would like.

Ah that's my mistake, I misread.

So with this unrestricted control editing code, is it possible to map 2 functions to the same button? If so, problem solved.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

taunts don't do anything in the air I doubt that would be a problem.
I still do not prefer having FSJ removed from my jump, either way it's still jumping so making 2 different types of jumps where one is situational silly to me.

 

[FrozenHobo]

ok, i see a solution here: regular 'Jump" still has footstool included, BUT, we can make a taunt (say up taunt) a footstool-less jump. then people could choose which one they want! ITS BRILLIANT! why did it take me this long to figure out thats what yo were saying......

 

[leafgreen386]

Ah that's my mistake, I misread.

So with this unrestricted control editing code, is it possible to map 2 functions to the same button? If so, problem solved.

No. You can't. But you could assign taunt to say... X or Y, and with a code that moves the footstool functionality to the taunt button, you would then use that new button for footstooling.

 

[FrozenHobo]

edit: edit: what about my idea of changing a taunt to a footstool-less jump and let the player change their controls accordingly?

 

[cobaltblue]

Somewhat off topic, but would it be possible now to assign Samus to ZSS transformation now to one button? Even without the ability to turn back this would be a great strategic tool for people who main both chars.

Also it adds DEPTH!

 

[GameSystem]

I didn't pay the internet bill so I haven't been here to argue for a while.
Leaf, there is no reason why a fsj would ever ruin your positioning. If you say it ruins your edge guarding opportunities, you are completely wrong. It'll make it 5x easier. If you are edge guarding someone, why would you ever need to double jump near them? To do a rising dair or something? OMG guess what? You can do that out of footstools anyway, except you get to save your double jump for recovery. From what a lot of people are saying, you act like a footstool jump replaces your double jump when it doesn't. A million characters have footstool to spike and it's much safer off stage. As for on stage, you said that it'll mess up with ness's double jump cancel. It won't. From what I remember, shanus has it set up that if you double jump while still rising you can DJC. If this is true, you can DJC the footstool for even better positioning since the other guy will be in the "jumped off of" animation. This is a significant advantage to ness since he can cancel his upward momentum even faster without magnet canceling. Neko showed a DK vid too.
Semi-Off topic. For those of you complaining about the buffer and how you said that footstooling is accidental like nairing off a stage. SERIOUSLY??? Hey, this ganondorf is going to use a fair at me. I can see it's huge startup. I'm at the very very edge of the stage. I'm almost positive that ganon's fair will push my shield off stage. I'm going to be noob and try to shield grab him. OMG I DID A NAIR AND FELL OFF AND DIED!! If you are at the edge of the stage, and someone is going to hit you, what do you expect to happen. You can't even argue that buffering is bad design. You just didn't think that the shield push would knock you off the stage. Your fault.

Well anyway, even if FSJ are accidental, like nairing off stage, it's not that hard to see when it should happen. It's just human error and your catering to those who don't use it and don't find a use for it while you hurt everyone else who sees it's applications. It's like those people in melee days who thought WD was stupid and pointless. They didn't see it's use and never used it. It doesn't mean you should remove it from the game. If you mapped AD to a different button, sure you can still WD, but it makes it so annoyingly worthless.
I hope you see what I'm trying to say.

 

[CountKaiser]

Seriously, stop spamming the word depth.

 

[leafgreen386]

edit: edit: what about my idea of changing a taunt to a footstool-less jump and let the player change their controls accordingly?

Actually, making taunt into footstool is the only way it would work, as otherwise you're removing one of a character's three taunts completely to make it into a jump button. The reason taunt = footstool works but not taunt = jump is because the taunt button doesn't do anything in the air.

I actually think the best method for dealing with this right now would be to use the buffer scale. Someone mentioned this before about using 0-100 as one set of buffer, and 200-300 as a second set, where they each differ on some other setting. In this case, that setting could be whether footstool is mapped to taunt or not.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Got us some synonyms for Depth right here.
http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/depth

Anyways.
Unless a FSJ puts you up too high (i'm talking off stage) that you can't follow up before your opponent recovers from the Footstool theres not much wrong with it at all.

I actually think the best method for dealing with this right now would be to use the buffer scale. Someone mentioned this before about using 0-100 as one set of buffer, and 200-300 as a second set, where they each differ on some other setting. In this case, that setting could be whether footstool is mapped to taunt or not.

And the other setting it keeping it as it's norm?
This would work fine.
Though I still don't see the urgency.

 

[FrozenHobo]

Actually, making taunt into footstool is the only way it would work, as otherwise you're removing one of a character's three taunts completely to make it into a jump button. The reason taunt = footstool works but not taunt = jump is because the taunt button doesn't do anything in the air.

I actually think the best method for dealing with this right now would be to use the buffer scale. Someone mentioned this before about using 0-100 as one set of buffer, and 200-300 as a second set, where they each differ on some other setting. In this case, that setting could be whether footstool is mapped to taunt or not.

so if the taunt command doesn't work in the air then why would it work for footstool (as you would need to be in the air for it to work)? also, maybe explain the buffer idea a little more. it sounds interesting, but i want to be sure i understand what you're saying first.

 

[leafgreen386]

so if the taunt command doesn't work in the air then why would it work for footstool (as you would need to be in the air for it to work)? also, maybe explain the buffer idea a little more. it sounds interesting, but i want to be sure i understand what you're saying first.

I'm saying that taunt doesn't do anything else in the air, so if you were to use it as a footstool button, it wouldn't interfere with anything. The taunt button would act the same as always when you're on the ground, but when you're in the air, if you're near your opponent, you have the ability to footstool.

The buffer scale would be set up so that 0-100 and 200-300 give equivalent buffer (ie. 10% and 210% are the same thing in terms of giving you 1 buffer), but one would have the original footstool settings and the other would have it mapped to taunt.

Seeing as we're rather short on coders atm, and this being such a low priority code, I wouldn't expect that it'd be done anytime soon, but it would be cool to eventually have.

 

[GameSystem]

I think what he means that normally 0-100% is the buffer 1-10 frames. This one will keep the footstool mapped to the jump buttons. the 200-300% is the same thing 1-10 frames for each 10%, but this one has the footstool marked to the taunt button. I'm all for this idea if that's what he means.

Edit: Ninja'd. At least I got it right.

 

[FrozenHobo]

oh, then yes, thats a great compromise.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Now that we've reached a working idea that shouldn't step on anyones toes.
Moving back on.
Did anyone take to mind my yoshi suggestion?

 

[GameSystem]

I think it promotes edge camping too much. Not sure though. I remember when I was doing it the other day and I didn't really know about the 6th egg not doing anything so I fell down and died because it caught me by surprise. It's like a good anticamping measure. If you keep the stall on the 5th egg, You can just stay on the edge and spam all day. I don't know if I would want it or not.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Well obviously you can't stay on "all" day granted your not fighting an idiot.
Also if you get hit off your basically relying on your DJ (that's not new, but now theres no significant boost to help you) which means a simple dtilt can get you dead, or in an unfavorable position.

 

[GameSystem]

Super Armor!! While we can't increase the amount of frames of super armor directly, we can use the frame speed mod to make yoshi's DJ go super fast so the super armor frames cover more of the jump a longer time. Maybe that'll make it so that he won't get wrecked by a dtilt.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

What I meant was that if you ECE with the 5th toss, you just take a dtilt and end up dying because your DJ isn't enough or you get edge-hogged.
Also I don't think Yoshi's jump needs to be faster at all.

 

[GameSystem]

Do you think that if the 5th boost remained he could infi stall?

I'm pretty sure that someone in the IRC said that the br was going to work with the side b. What's wrong with his dtilt? You said like two pages back that it's hitbox was weird or something.

 

[Zodac]

yoshi's recovery is fine, ganon, bowser and link would kill for yoshi's recovery.
Yoshi is fine in general, except for his kill moves.

SKYWORLD, would it be possible to mod skyworld so it has an always solid main platforn and all the smaller platforms above, the tiles would always stay broken/non-existant?

It would be my favourite stage if this could happen.

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

yoshi's recovery is fine, ganon, bowser and link would kill for yoshi's recovery.
Yoshi is fine in general, except for his kill moves.

ganon and bowser would definitely not kill for a worst recovery.. lol. idk about link since I rarely use him. the only thing I see wrong with yoshi is his dair. not sure what I feel that's wrong about ir but I definitely don't like ir but this may be more personal rather than an actual problem.