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[SymphonicSage12]

changing the angle wouldn't necessarily make it set up for an edgeguard. >.> and if you really must think it buffs the move, then nerf something else. srsly.

 

[Mattnumbers]

changing the angle wouldn't necessarily make it set up for an edgeguard. >.> and if you really must think it buffs the move, then nerf something else. srsly.

Well, that's what I'm saying. I don't care if you buff a move, I just think peach should also get a nerf so its a tradeoff since she is a good character already. She's probably better than G&W.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

ok then, so what would be the best balancing nerf to making nair have a more sideways angle?

Just some ideas:
ftilt: idk, maybe add some more ending lag onto it? although that would ruin ftilt>uptilt

up smash: make the sweetspot have slightly less knockback? It's kinda overpowered right now

if you think of anything else, go nuts.


btw im sorry for calling you a douche.

 

[Wolf of Ice]

Here's something I'm curious about. G&W mains, would you be willing for your character to actually become worse through these tradeoffs, as long as you gained depth?

I'm pro-G&W depth giving btw.

 

[Magus420]

Peach was offered a tradeoff for reverting Fair back to its old self. We chose nair (not just me and symphonic) to be made like bair (knockback wise). If we're offered a tradeoff for that we'll take it. Its as simple as that.

we aren't the ones who said she should get a buff to compensate the fair going back to normal. Ryoko is the one that offered us a tradeoff and this is what we came up with.

BUT, the fact of the matter is what we WERE offered a tradeoff buff and we're not just going to say "no".

she doesnt necessarily need the nair buff, but we were offered the opportunity to buff it

The general point as that we WERE offered a tradeoff for Fair. Thats it. Period.

like CRAZYCRACKERS JUST ****ING SAID AGAIN, we were offered a tradeoff, and we're taking it. so its like "ok want a present, kids?" "YEAH!" "too bad, i changed my mind."

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFU-

Indeed. Fair neutralization/tradeoff buff. That is what we were offered. We could do a trade off like symphonic suggested any day. But if we're offered a tradeoff here we're going to take it.

I would appreciate it if things would be done this way:

-If you offer us a tradeoff such as this one, don't take it back.
-Even if you want to take it back, please give it a try first.
-If you don't approve of a tradeoff like this, do not offer it in the first place.

Once again, we were offered this buff tradeoff in exchange for Fair neutralization. Normally, I wouldn't think of things this way but I'm going with what we were offered.

yeah about that, I was just kinda it's rude we were promised something, and then that's all the sudden just like "oh really i said that? oh nvm you dont get anything, you ***s."

We never asked for this, we were OFFERED this. All we want now is for Peach's Nair to hit at a more horrizontal angle so it sets up for edgeguards better. This really isn't that complicated; If you offer someone something, follow through.

Ryoko offered it, which is my point in the first place, AND Slikvik, who is a new WBR member I believe, agreed with it as soon as I made a Nair proposal.

Nair hitting at a more horrizontal angle isn't even that big of a deal honestly. I understand the point of view of everyone who opposes this, but we recieved an offer.

Yes that is the reasoning. While its not neccessarily needed, Ryoko gave us that window. Slikvik than solidified it.

...



I'm not sure how this:

By Peach standards it's killing a bit too well. Falcon's knee is nowhere close easy to sweetspot in this game against the general population of characters, and you really can't compare their KO moves because they have entirely different assets as it is. The Fair buff will probably be replaced by a KB increase on a more awkward move as a trade off. Right now the Fair is literally equivalent in power to Zelda's Fsmash in an easy to use, very safe aerial aerial. This was by all intents an oversight of the people who originally drew up the numbers.

Not to mention, we can rather agree that CF is really meh compared to Peach who gets comboed far harder than he himself can hope to combo anyone else.

Heck, I don't agree with it as a Peach main... it's never really necessary to make an amazing, already very applicable aerial even better in such a way. It makes her more shallow.

Translates into something like this:

Okay guys, think of a buff on anything to go with it and I can guarantee you we will make it happ'n cap'n

 

[SymphonicSage12]

magus, take it up with slikvik if you really want to.

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

i like how people treat the peach mains. "she dun need it" "learn 2 play"
im adding that to my list of things that get thrown around. peach mains, you dont need nair buffs. just learn to di. LOL

 

[SymphonicSage12]

...skip2maloo, are u serious and being mean towards peach mains, or are being facetious and mocking people who make fun of peach mains? I can't tell really tell, tbqh. @_@

 

[Roxas215]

i like how people treat the peach mains. "she dun need it" "learn 2 play"
im adding that to my list of things that get thrown around. peach mains, you dont need nair buffs. just learn to di. LOL

I always said peach doesn't need anything and is perfectly fine the way she is. And i also said that if changing anything on peach will result in her getting nerfed elsewhere then don't do it.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

let me just say it again, you people really need to be more open-minded and be more open for experimentation. >.>

 

[Deleted member]

i like how people treat the peach mains. "she dun need it" "learn 2 play"
im adding that to my list of things that get thrown around. peach mains, you dont need nair buffs. just learn to di. LOL

i only said lrn2play because peach is really good and probably doesn't need buffs, as sweet as they would be. although i essentially main ness, i'm probably better at Brawl+ with peach. I've been a peach main in every game she ever existed.

including games like mario kart

peach is really good in brawl+. a peach bomber buff could be totally viable though, without a tradeoff.

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

i only said lrn2play because peach is really good and probably doesn't need buffs, as sweet as they would be. although i essentially main ness, i'm probably better at Brawl+ with peach. I've been a peach main in every game she ever existed.

including games like mario kart

peach is really good in brawl+. a peach bomber buff could be totally viable though, without a tradeoff.

i would trade all of cf's moveset so his fair can OHKO.

 

[goodoldganon]

Ok...GoG is about to lay the smack down. Listen up kids and listen well.

Peach is fine. We recently debated where we think the cast stands and Peach made a strong contention for the Back Rooms idea for top 10. She was like 1 or 2 votes off. Peach is a GREAT character with a lot of things going for. She isn't popular cause we are all dudes and some how playing as a chick means I'm less of a man I guess...

Now, I believe we do plan to give Peach a stronger F-throw when a throw mod comes out, but we'll see. Also, side-b is so awkward I see no reason why we won't make it at least kill before 200%. Don't expect it to be a new knee though. Many of you forget that teams exist and a side-b is significantly easier to hit with in teams. Frankly Peach doesn't need help and she really doesn't need more depth. She has a lot to her and it's one reason why she isn't as popular. Why shouldn't I just pick up MK and own harder with less overall work?

Just because we don't treat a character like we did for Bowser or Ganon doesn't mean we don't like them or we have some vendetta or we are afraid to try changes. And frankly I'm a little sick of the bandwagons everyone jumps on as soon as 2-3 people say so and so needs something. If you guys want a metagame, work with what you have. If it isn't working then show me videos and statistics otherwise I don't care. If you want so and so to have their entire playstyle changed I don't care either. We aren't here to reinvent playstyles on good characters. Which brings me to my next point... Game and Watch.

Game and Watch isn't as good as we originally thought with Brawl+. I admit and I'm sorry he has been ignored. That being said he is still a solid character and though he only has one or two tricks that doesn't mean he needs help. You guys are way overestimating depth and I'm getting sick of seeing it thrown around.

Depth =/= a good character or even a fun one. Fighting games have ALWAYS been about exploiting a few moves and abusing your strategy and what works best. And Game and Watch spams priority like the best of them. Is he amazing? Nope. Is he bad? Far from it. He is a defensive character in a more offensive world, so start playing him that way. For every person that doesn't like G and W's 'lack of depth' I can find you another person that likes him just the way he is.

Long story short, I and the rest of the Back Room is open to change, but prove it to us that someone needs it. Depth is overrated and if a character can perform well (not dominate) with 5 or 6 moves then that's a little sad they are so easy but oh well.

 

[XSilvenX]

let me just say it again, you people really need to be more open-minded and be more open for experimentation. >.>

So we can spend more time testing nightlies with unnecessary adjustments.

Sounds fun


If a character is fine (In this case GaW + Peach) why change them?

Because of depth? ...oh yeah I forgot. This "depth" word a lot of you guys mindlessly throw around with no definite meaning in mind. From what I read it's something like nerfing a good move so that a crappy move that nobody will ever use is a lot better. That equals depth huh? That will add "dimension" to characters right? So instead of the usual zoning with fairs and bairs, the GaW mains will now chef into w.e or Chef Wall or w.e the f*ck you wanna call it at the expense of fair or some other good move.

Pretty laughable....

But hey, who cares if GaW sucks more right? As long as he can spam chef now and create a nice little wall of sausage between himself and the opponent. Not to mention, now he has "DEPTH" because he can approach in different ways and camp more which is cool. Who cares if it's the complete opposite of what Brawl+ is trying to achieve (less campy, more fast paced aggressive, etc) it's just cool to have and once again add depth.

 

[Roxas215]

So we can spend more time testing nightlies with unnecessary adjustments.

Sounds fun


If a character is fine (In this case GaW + Peach) why change them?

Because of depth? ...oh yeah I forgot. This "depth" word a lot of you guys mindlessly throw around with no definite meaning in mind. From what I read it's something like nerfing a good move so that a crappy move that nobody will ever use is a lot better. That equals depth huh? That will add "dimension" to characters right? So instead of the usual zoning with fairs and bairs, the GaW mains will now chef into w.e or Chef Wall or w.e the f*ck you wanna call it at the expense of fair or some other good move.

Pretty laughable....

But hey, who cares if GaW sucks more right? As long as he can spam chef now and create a nice little wall of sausage between himself and the opponent. Not to mention, now he has "DEPTH" because he can approach in different ways and camp more which is cool. Who cares if it's the complete opposite of what Brawl+ is trying to achieve (less campy, more fast paced aggressive, etc) it's just cool to have and once again add depth.

I agree. Like i said in the peach boards brawl+ should be passed the whole "experimentation" phase and focus on little tweaks here and there to get this thing to a gold release. Only reason i was for the nair thing was because we were offered a trade off and thats what we came up with. I could care less either way since peach is perfectly fine the way she is. If the hackers have time to make new chars like roy and doc then the actual brawl+ project should be closed to being finished.

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

wall of sausage sounds pretty "tasty" as snake would say.

 

[crazycrackers]

I agree. Like i said in the peach boards brawl+ should be passed the whole "experimentation" phase and focus on little tweaks here and there to get this thing to a gold release. Only reason i was for the nair thing was because we were offered a trade off and thats what we came up with. I could care less either way since peach is perfectly fine the way she is. If the hackers have time to make new chars like roy and doc then the actual brawl+ project should be closed to being finished.

I agree with you completely. Peach is fine. I also find it funny how people are telling us to lrn2play even though we've never ONCE said Peach lacks depth OR that she isn't a great character.

This is really what it boiled down to:
We thought there was a possibility for a buff. Why wouldn't we take it? Honestly.

Everyone who is making a big deal out of this, please get over it.

EDIT: I'd also like to see if anyone can even find ONE time when we ever said Peach NEEDED the buff. Humor me please.

 

[cAm8ooo]

Peach needs a buff.

You have been humored jk

I love peach at the moment. Probably my second favorite character. She's great as is.

Spoiler

fake quotes ftw

 

[crazycrackers]

LOL *dies* False quotes are too good.

Sorry if this got out hand, I understand the opinions of everyone who opposed this (including myself in some ways) completely. We just got our hopes up I suppose.

 

[Dan_X]

I'd also like to see if anyone can even find ONE time when we ever said Peach NEEDED the buff. Humor me please.

I recall you saying that Peach should be able to kill anyone instantly by holding holding out her shield until it breaks... This is of course balanced because Peach has is vulnerable to being grabbed while in shield.

See...

Peach should be able to kill anyone instantly by holding holding out her shield until it breaks... This is of course balanced because Peach has is vulnerable to being grabbed while in shield.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

I didn't "offer" anything. I said that a trade off would be probable because the Fair adjustment was pointless to purpose. And I repeat, the only move of Peach's that can certainly be made into a strong kill option for Peach without question would be Side B. It's awkward and punishable, and has a killer low angle already to make the hassle worth it.

 

[Roxas215]

I didn't "offer" anything. I said that a trade off would be probable. And I repeat, the only move of Peach's that can certainly be made into a strong kill option for Peach without question would be Side B. It's awkward and punishable, and worthy of the job.

Ill take it!

 

[crazycrackers]

I didn't "offer" anything. I said that a trade off would be probable because the Fair adjustment was pointless to purpose. And I repeat, the only move of Peach's that can certainly be made into a strong kill option for Peach without question would be Side B. It's awkward and punishable, and has a killer low angle already to make the hassle worth it.

LMAO. This whole ordeal would be easily avoided if this was said a while ago. But whatever, I'll take it.

@Orca, LOL. It'd be funny if jigglypuff could do that. That'd be major jigglycide.

 

[CyberGlitch]

...And I wasn't talking about G&W anyway...

My bad, I misinterpreted your previous statement. I'm not going to pretend I know about Peach's metagame or if she needs something so I'm keeping my mouth shut concerning this argument.

On the subject of Game & Watch, as of now he's pretty much a one trick pony. However that one trick has been polished and perfected, making him a fairly solid character. He's a wall of priority and disjointedness that many characters have a very hard time dealing with.

This is part of the problem we see. G&W has one trick (turtle, more or less), which is effective against some of the cast. Good SDI makes it much less useful than most people think, and certain moves and strategies overcome it. The problem with having one trick is that once it's overcome you are screwed.

If you want more depth ask sakurai for a new moveset. Im not sure what ideas you guys got thats somehow gonna change the way GW is played in all honesty.

G&W already has a unique moveset that G&W watch mains would be more than happy to use, but some of the moves just should not be used. Chef is one of them. It's a very unique projectile, but the wind down of the move makes it pretty useless even when you hit with it. In VBrawl it wasn't a good move, but it was much better than it currently is in Brawl+ because characters couldn't move as quickly to avoid it or to punish you (with a dash canceled smash, no less). We'd love to use the move with minimal change, just enough change to it to make it usable.

Here's something I'm curious about. G&W mains, would you be willing for your character to actually become worse through these tradeoffs, as long as you gained depth?

Playing a 1 dimensional character can get old. Personally I like having options and unique but useful moves more than a single overpowered move. Sure I could win a match with the whorenado in VBrawl, that doesn't mean I'd want to.

I don't think our proposed modification will buff him as much as others seem to think, but it's hard to tell without actually trying it in game.

This "depth" word a lot of you guys mindlessly throw around with no definite meaning in mind. From what I read it's something like nerfing a good move so that a crappy move that nobody will ever use is a lot better. That equals depth huh? That will add "dimension" to characters right? So instead of the usual zoning with fairs and bairs, the GaW mains will now chef into w.e or Chef Wall or w.e the f*ck you wanna call it at the expense of fair or some other good move.

But hey, who cares if GaW sucks more right? As long as he can spam chef now and create a nice little wall of sausage between himself and the opponent. Not to mention, now he has "DEPTH" because he can approach in different ways and camp more which is cool. Who cares if it's the complete opposite of what Brawl+ is trying to achieve (less campy, more fast paced aggressive, etc) it's just cool to have and once again add depth.

Depth, I'd say depth means he has several options or strategies that could be used to defeat an opponent. The importance of having more than one strategy is that one can switch between them, and thus be less predictable. When you play as G&W in Brawl+, in my experiences, you are forced to spam turtle while spacing. Which he is forced to be aggressive, he is also forced to spam a move and be predictable. BTW, Fair zoning does not work.

If you modify chef so that its winddown is reduced, it doesn't modify how likely it is to hit an opponent. It does not create a hard to pass wall, as you claim. It is not very far ranged. What this does is reduce an opponents ability to punish G&W once the move is out, and potentially open up some combos for G&W when he does hit an opponent close to him with the move (combo into Fair or neutral air). Basically, instead of forcing G&W to play full aggro, which simply doesn't work against some characters, you give G&W the option to pressure others, push them to do the aggro. G&W has some good defensive options (even if his grab range is piss-poor), and this can play in his favor. An altered chef could also add more options to his currently predictable recovery.


A potential nerf for G&W would be reduced knockback for Oil Panick, which is currently absurd. While this might hurt his matchups against certain spammy characters (Pit, Zelda, etc), it still seems more fair than the one hit KO's he currently gets. It might also make G&W a less overpowered character for team matches.

 

[Deleted member]

peachs side-b's only utility at the moment is basically taking on the spacies' side-b, tech-chasing bad di on throws. i may throw a random one in here and there.

but it's too hard to hit with for the amount of knockback it gives. imagine ganon's uptilt if it only killed at 200, lol.

 

[XSilvenX]

Your post.

The whole one trick pony stuff is all based on your playstyle of him, not all GaWs play like that. Your thinking must be really linear if you truly believe GaW's bair is the only reason he does well in Brawl.... I'm not saying it's not a major contributor, but he definitely has more approaches. This is Smash though, a lot of approaches are universal and it's based mostly on playstyle. Sure come characters have moves that make it easier but I'd like to think that all characters can...

-Bait, punish Not necessarily an approach. (Just run up to them outside of grab range and shield, you'd be surprised how much this works..)

-Feint counter. Look it up..similar to bait and punish but sort of offensive But an example would be me shorthop fairing your shield with Ike, deceptively spaced so that you think it's a free shieldgrab but I jab combo you as soon as you let go of shield and try to grab... Think Melee Falco, how they always did the predictable dair but then a shine, sometimes not..the shine hit because the opponent tried to grab. In essence it's like a flub attack for the sake of tricking you into temporarily disabling your defenses so you can attack but as soon as you attempt something, I hit you first because of frame advantage. (this is what most good players rely on for pressuring)

-Zone with your longest ranged aerial (This is that "one dimensional" style of play you keep claiming is GaW's only approach

-Jump in and aerial through their shield. Since there's more shieldstun GaW can safely nair into anyone's shield BEHIND THEM with low risk, from there he can sh nair again, retreating sh bair or anything else that comes out relatively fast.


Now those are approaches that all characters can use to "get in" for combos so I'm not sure why you keep claiming that GaW is only dependant on one approach. Nothing personal but it might be your style of play that makes GaW seem so "one dimensional".

All things considered though the buff wouldn't really matter because it won't change a single thing imo. That move is not gonna be used seriously like that.... I personally don't care if he gets it or not because I don't see GaW players using it to bait approaches since it's not a projectile that you can depend on like that...If you really think throwing out a bunch of sausages with random trajectories will force opponents to come to you then whatever. Have fun getting KO'd because you thought having faster cooldown on chef made the move safe to use in a real match.

 

[CyberGlitch]

Perhaps it is my current playstyle, but I do indeed do the things you mentioned, though, besides Feint Counter (besides the occasional turtle I'll cancel before the hitbox comes out to lead to down tilt and such, but this strategy can be easily seen if an opponent knows about it since you have to start the backair a certain distance from the ground).

I didn't say the buff would change G&W's playstyle significantly, or work as an approach. Far from it, I've repeatedly stated that it isn't quite the buff that people seem to think it is, and that it'd still be situational, but it could be a decent move to bait someone into or to stop a certain approach. To be honest, though, it's hard to tell how extensively it'd alter his playstyle or help him without trying out the modification for myself.

 

[camelot]

Hey, since we're trying to conserve lines for the frame speed code, how about taking one of the lines out for Gdorf's jab? It has 3 lines, just for the jab.

Could other attacks (that currently have frame speed adjustments) be changed to have hitbox adjustments instead? So that space isn't used up? Jiggly's dtilt, or MK's dtilt, for example.

Just some ideas.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

NO! Camelot, Jiggly needs that cooldown reduction on her down tilt. it's the only way that that move isn't completely useless. >.>

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Yeah, Jiggly's dtilt without the lag reduction only exists to punish you for using it.

Though her dtilt is pretty useless besides, so eh.

 

[CloneHat]

It's been said that sausages with random trajectories will not significantly do anything for G&W's playstyle, so why don't you also nerf his enormous bair, making it so he has to mix up the approaches.

Just an idea.

 

[Arkaether]

NO! Camelot, Jiggly needs that cooldown reduction on her down tilt. it's the only way that that move isn't completely useless. >.>

v: I beg to differ.

Jiggly dtilt is completely worthless with or without the buff. Take it away if you want, it's not like anybody even uses it unless they're sandbagging to all hell and back.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

>.> well then the move should be made not useless.


And btw, I now support a side b buff for peach. This is what the peach boards will agree on that should be buffed. I think most of us want a knockback increase of peach bomber.

 

[Arkaether]

>.> well then the move should be made not useless.

Why on earth would you bother to buff a useless move merely for the sake of making it not useless, without considering the overall balance and ability of the character prior to such a buff?

There seems to be some absurd idea people carry around that "balanced" means "every move is useful in some form or fashion".

A balanced Jigglypuff needs aerial mobility and a few grab buffs. Buffing sing or dtilt is stupid.

 

[CloneHat]

I personally don't care for the buff at all. It still has no priority, no knockback, and no point. People say it's useful for poking people away from the ledge, but in that case you can just run off and aerial.

 

[trojanpooh]

Jiggs could also use a normal shield.

 

[Arkaether]

Jiggs could also use a normal shield.

No. It is one of her defining aspects.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

ok fine lets leave jigg's dtilt how it is. But nearly all of the peach mains would agree to a peach bomber knockback increase. Just go to the peach thread and ask.


and yes, I agree to leave jigg'z shield how it is. Why the **** would she be called the balloon pokemon if she didn't pop like a balloon? >.>

 

[shanus]

When did I say YOU offered it? Ryoko offered it, which is my point in the first place, AND Slikvik, who is a new WBR member I believe, agreed with it as soon as I made a Nair proposal. We were offered it so it at least deserves a chance.

Also LOL @ Skip2Maloo, especially since I'm hipsanic.

this is a classic example as to why i dont post much anymore. An idea which is posted does not make it fact nor does it guarantee inclusion, BR member or not.

 

[Kaitou Ace]

I've come to the conclusion that it's pointless to try to suggest anything. We might as well go back and play vBrawl, lol.