Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[CountKaiser]

The opposition to giving G&W tradeoffs is why I don't bring it up anymore. it's simply not going to happen.

 

[crazycrackers]

lol I don't see why its such a big deal. Theres nothing wrong with trade offs

 

[Revven]

hey I've got a serious statement/question for once (omg skip srs no way).
why is it you guys can add hitstun/increase hitboxes and stuff but not edit throws/projectiles? im still kinda in the dark about all that.

We lack the code for throws the hitbox code simply does not work for throws because throws are just vastly different from normal moves (the best we can do is change damage of a throw IF the throw has a hitbox). And we can only edit a few projectiles (apparently only those that aren't treated as items... I think).

 

[Deleted member]

gannon -snip-
Gannon

Raaaageeee

 

[Nybb]

Any chance of changing gannon's jump physics? in regular brawl the one thing he had going for him was that his low hop was the perfect height to use his jumping down A and get no lag. You could kind of hop around doing that move. Now you can't because his low hop is so short that the move lags on impact every time.

Could we maybe remove the lag of Gannon's Jumping down-A? Or, could we increase the height of his low hop?

Use a higher buffer setting. Or, what I like to do is set L to jump, so you can just push L and c-down like pretty much right at the same time and it always cancels.

Speaking of Ganon's jump physics though, how is the doublejump after b-air coming?

All I'm trying to say is that depth is not only something that the developers make, but also that the players can discover.

Hell, fox, arguably the most shallow and straightforward character in the game, can still be incredibly complex when used correctly.

Trade-offs are fine, we should just be careful about messing with characters who even the G&W mains agree have one of the best matchups in the game.

Wing

I am getting the impression that you are afraid that people are trying to improve GW, which would indeed be bad because as you said and everybody else agrees, he has some pretty sick matchups.

However, they do not want GW to be "better" overall. Nobody is arguing the fact that he is pretty good. They just want him to have more variety. He is decent right now pretty much only because of bair's range and nair's damage output. Why not nerf those moves a little bit and make some of his other moves better? It'll make him less boring without making him any "better". I don't see how that could possibly be a bad thing.

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

We lack the code for throws the hitbox code simply does not work for throws because throws are just vastly different from normal moves (the best we can do is change damage of a throw IF the throw has a hitbox). And we can only edit a few projectiles (apparently only those that aren't treated as items... I think).

an example of those projectiles are firebreath from charizard/bowser? how about lasers or arrows? by items I assume things like robs gyro, tl's bombs, things like that?
do you think it will become possible to edit things like this in the future?

 

[Mattnumbers]

I just wanted to say that I am completely in favor of expanding G&W's metagame through tradeoffs.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Ok, some peach mains and I have found something we want buffed, in exchange for a nerf, of course. We, generally as a whole, want Peach's nair to have more knockback (about as much as bair), in exchange for peach's fair going back to it's original (lower) strength/ in other words, in exchange for lowering peach's fair's knockback.

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Peach doesn't need any aerial adjustment... at all.
The only KB buff that she could very agreeably get is Peach Bomber so it kills at like 139% instead of 239%.

 

[Mattnumbers]

except Fair was only increased because they thought they fixed something wrong with it but didn't -_-

I vote they just revert Fair back anyways.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Well , CrazyCrackers and I want nair to be buffed. and Since her fair is getting "nerfed," per say, doesn't she, per say, need a buff? CrazyCrackers and I agreed that buffing nair would be waaay more practical than buffing peach bomber.

 

[Mattnumbers]

If you look in that thread they were just discussing how great Peach is and how she's probably top 10. Her metagame doesn't really need expansion, its plenty deep. Now if you nerfed Fair past what it was originally, THAT would be a fair tradeoff imo.

 

[Roxas215]

Peach doesn't need any aerial adjustment... at all.
The only KB buff that she could very agreeably get is Peach Bomber so it kills at like 139% instead of 239%.

This is very true. She doesn't need anything. But your the one that offered us a trade off and this is what the peach boards came up with.

Although in their defense their not really "nerfing" fair rather then just making it back to how it originally was because of a mistake on their part.


I really don't care either way.

 

[crazycrackers]

Basically, Peach was offered a tradeoff for reverting Fair back to its old self. We chose nair (not just me and symphonic) to be made like bair (knockback wise). If we're offered a tradeoff for that we'll take it. Its as simple as that.

 

[Mattnumbers]

My only problem is that she got a buff to her Fair for no reason a bit ago, and it hasn't been removed (Well, it had a reason, but it didn't fix what it was supposed to while at the same time buffing the move)

 

[Roxas215]

My only problem is that she got a buff to her Fair for no reason a bit ago, and it hasn't been removed (Well, it had a reason, but it didn't fix what it was supposed to while at the same time buffing the move)

Which is why they are reverting it back.

 

[crazycrackers]

It really doesn't hurt to give Nair a chance. If its not problematic, and its the last request from Peach users I even see in the far far future, we can keep it. If it IS problematic, we can simply take it out in the nightly build afterwards. It won't even be hard to program in. Just copy the KBG and BKB of bair and put them into Nair. And the fair buff is being removed.

 

[Mattnumbers]

I know, but you guys are saying that you should get another buff because they are reverting it back even though it SHOULD be reverted back just for the sake of it being a pointless buff to begin with.

 

[Roxas215]

I know, but you guys are saying that you should get another buff because they are reverting it back even though it SHOULD be reverted back just for the sake of it being a pointless buff to begin with.

I agree. However we aren't the ones who said she should get a buff to compensate the fair going back to normal. Ryoko is the one that offered us a tradeoff and this is what we came up with.

 

[crazycrackers]

Peach is PERFECT the way she is now. We'd like her to stay that way but know that fair has to be brought back to how it was before. Besides, I still don't see the harm in giving nair a chance. Besides that, I actually agree with you Matt.

BUT, the fact of the matter is what we WERE offered a tradeoff buff and we're not just going to say "no".

 

[SymphonicSage12]

What crazycrackers said. she doesnt necessarily need the nair buff, but we were offered the opportunity to buff it, and knows? You guys might like it. If you really hate it that much, maybe we could actually nerf something else.

 

[crazycrackers]

The general point as that we WERE offered a tradeoff for Fair. Thats it. Period.

 

[Roxas215]

What crazycrackers said. she doesnt necessarily need the nair buff, but we were offered the opportunity to buff it, and knows? You guys might like it. If you really hate it that much, maybe we could actually nerf something else.

I would rather get no buffs at all then get a nair buff and have something else get nerfed. I was seriously going to quit this game if they went through with taking out peach's bombs and swords. I was ike "Wtf are they doing"

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Out of curiosity, what's the point of having an identical nair and bair? Wouldn't nair's superior hitbox make bair fairly useless comparitively?

That seems to remove depth, not add it.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

rider, I never said that the balancing nerf would be taking out the swords and stuff from down b. I was actually thinking about her jab. it's lightning fast and disjointed. maybe you could make it slower or something. idk, still, like CRAZYCRACKERS JUST ****ING SAID AGAIN, we were offered a tradeoff, and we're taking it. so its like "ok want a present, kids?" "YEAH!" "too bad, i changed my mind."

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFU-


edit: good point, tatsuman...um.... *hides behind crazycrackers*

crazycrackers, any ideas?

 

[crazycrackers]

I would rather get no buffs at all then get a nair buff and have something else get nerfed. I was seriously going to quit this game if they went through with taking out peach's bombs and swords. I was ike "Wtf are they doing"

Indeed. Fair neutralization/tradeoff buff. That is what we were offered. We could do a trade off like symphonic suggested any day. But if we're offered a tradeoff here we're going to take it. And I would never nerf jab. Its such an important move.

I would appreciate it if things would be done this way:

-If you offer us a tradeoff such as this one, don't take it back.
-Even if you want to take it back, please give it a try first.
-If you don't approve of a tradeoff like this, do not offer it in the first place.

 

[Roxas215]

rider, I never said that the balancing nerf would be taking out the swords and stuff from down b. I was actually thinking about her jab. it's lightning fast and disjointed. maybe you could make it slower or something. idk, still, like CRAZYCRACKERS JUST ****ING SAID AGAIN, we were offered a tradeoff, and we're taking it. so its like "ok want a present, kids?" "YEAH!" "too bad, i changed my mind."

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFU-


edit: good point, tatsuman...um.... *hides behind crazycrackers*

crazycrackers, any ideas?

WTF???????? How can a peach player want her jab nerfed? Her jab is the sole purpose of saving your *** from getting punished.

And tatsuman brings up a good point.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

crazycrackers, two questions:

1. What do YOU suggest is nerfed, then?

2. What should be done about identical nair and bair, seeing as they would have the exact same knockback?

NEVERMIND ABOUT THE JAB THING GUYS I DIDNT KNOW WHAT I WAS THINKING SO SHUT UP ABOUT THAT!

 

[crazycrackers]

crazycrackers, two questions:

1. What do YOU suggest is nerfed, then?

2. What should be done about identical nair and bair, seeing as they would have the exact same knockback?

NEVERMIND ABOUT THE JAB THING GUYS I DIDNT KNOW WHAT I WAS THINKING SO SHUT UP ABOUT THAT!

1. Nothing. Once again, we were offered this buff tradeoff in exchange for Fair neutralization. Normally, I wouldn't think of things this way but I'm going with what we were offered.

2. I don't know. We could always increase the range of Nair a little instead OR we could keep Nair the same but make it hit more horrizontally to make it a better set-up for edgeguards..

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

I don't know. We could always increase the range of Nair a little instead.

Since we can only increase hitbox size as a whole, wouldn't that come very close to giving Peach's nair a disjoint?

 

[crazycrackers]

Since we can only increase hitbox size as a whole, wouldn't that come very close to giving Peach's nair a disjoint?

Read my second suggestion. I like it more.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

i personally think the best thing to do about the supposed nair/bair thing is make them have different trajectories:

bair should hit opponents mostly at a sideways angle, probably down or up slightly.

nair should be more of a 20-30 degree angle either up or down to give it a different feel than bair.


This is all just my opinion, so flame all you want.

 

[crazycrackers]

We should discuss this in the Peach thread before we come back here.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

k crazycrackers. TO THE PEACH THREAD, UNITE!

 

[CountKaiser]

Hmmmm, seems Plum opened up a can of worms, though in reality Orca is to blame by bringing up Falco's shallow combo game.

Now it seems everyone wants more options for their character in exhange for nerfs, I.E. tradeoffs. This can only lead to disaster, from what I can see, as everyone and their relatives will want such and such done to their character because they lack depth.

As for G&W, yes, he's shallow. He's probably the most shallow character in the game. Does he need tradeoffs, probably not. Sure, they'd be nice, but are they necessary? Please continue G&W discussion in the G&W thread that I made. That's why it exists, so that G&W's metagame can be discussed, not so that it can gather dust.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

count, it's called EXPERIMENTING. Once we find the right combination, then we'll stop experimenting. k? k? ok were good. k? k.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Just because a mod/WBR member offers a tradeoff doesn't mean they automatically have to do it. I don't see the logic in saying "Well he SAID we could do this, so it doesn't matter if it was a good idea or not now he HAS to do it"

EDIT: Count Kaiser, most characters have plenty of depth, and that will be recognized by the WBR if tradeoffs are suggested for them. However, G&W does have very little depth as you said, so I think he should get some tradeoffs.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Experimenting isn't the issue here.

It's that everyone is going to start wanting more and more unreasonable trade-offs for their characters if people keep getting their way with this trade-off business. There needs to be some sort of line drawn here between what would actually give a character more depth, and what would be sort of cool.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

@ both of you guys: "ok want a present, kids?" "YEAH!" "too bad, i changed my mind."

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

@ both of you guys: "ok want a present, kids?" "YEAH!" "too bad, i changed my mind."

Hey, I can be logical and a total douchebag at the same time.

Seriously though, I'd just like everyone to think about adding depth with their tradeoffs, not just things that we would like.