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[Deleted member]

Perhaps he could use...some extra dimension?

zing!

You may say his character is a little..two-dimensional

a new twist on an old classic!

 

[SymphonicSage12]

You may say his character is a little..two-dimensional

a new twist on an old classic!

DeLoRtEd, that was so amazingly delicious that it made my Lucky Charms cry.

 

[timothyung]

Perhaps he could use...some extra dimension?

zing!

lol
Like this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TEwNWQD7ow

 

[Kaitou Ace]

stuff bout G&W

I agree. To be honest, the WBR has made a lot of unnecessary changes to a lot of characters ( lol falco) but look what happened, he now has another combo option besides UTILT UTILT UTILT and he now has more depth to his character. Ganondorf certainly did not need hitbox increases in the new nightly as he was managing just fine on his own and I certainly pointed this out yet people asserted that he "needs" these changes, as if he is so UNVIABLE without it.

Just because G&W was top in vBrawl does not mean the stigma carried over should prevent people from thinking about making changes to his character. Why should he just be limited to spamming bair all day? If that were the case with any other character, you guys would make changes immediately. Face it, G&W has no depth whatsoever. Once you figure out how to SDI out of his bair and punish, he's done for. What I think could be added to Chef is to increase the speed a little bit and somehow make the food piece last a little bit longer in order to create a sort of barrier for G&W. This could add so much strategic value to G&W. We all know how crappy G&W's lifespan is in B+ and this could add more fun and playability to his character as he'll last longer in a way that is not completely detrimental to his opponent. In fact, I'm sure there could be an accepted tradeoff nerf for this buff. Maybe you can nerf nair because it does like 17 damage which is pretty ridiculous or make bair have more knockback to prevent followups. It doesn't even matter because G&W doesn't have good aerial mobility and can't follow up with his "hax insane priority aerials" anyway.

Just give it a chance. I really don't understand why everyone is being so hesitant to experiment with a character in a video game that is a complete experiment in of itself. lrn2openminded plx

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Just to say, Kaitou_Ace, I love your way of thinking. That post right there also made my lucky charms cry.

 

[Kaitou Ace]

Thank America for freedom of speech, lololol.

 

[GHNeko]

at ghneko: A character could use a good portion of their moveset and still be boring. Yes, Peach does use a lot of her moves. However, on very single peach vid I see, they almost always come out the same way.

1. dair, dair, etc.
2. ftilt>utilt
3. dthrow dthrow
4. spacing fairs


You could expand to her BORINGness by shortening up b's landing lag, which would in turn make it more viable to add to and expand to these 1-dimensional combos.

Well the borning part is subjective. But you can't deny she's one of the more deeper characters.

Also, you forgot about turnips, jab > grab, FC Nair, Nair Pillars, Dthrow > Utilt, and her new and improved dsmash. :V

<3

And this is exactly why we have nightly builds. :V

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Why would you dthrow with Peach when uthrow is the throw that actually leads to guaranteed follow ups regardless of DI?

 

[GHNeko]

Is Dthrow completely overshadowed by Uthrow?

 

[Kaitou Ace]

I thought Dthrow guaranteed a follow-up to Ftilt at low-mid% and maybe Utilt with bad DI?

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Is Dthrow completely overshadowed by Uthrow?

Zelda has the same thing going on.

"Bad DI" is something that's probably never going to happen with their dthrows because they're very slow launches anyone can learn to DI after seeing them once. They're never guaranteed to link into anything.

 

[GHNeko]

Then I retract that statement about Dthrow.

Still, she's got more than what he's listed. :V

 

[CloneHat]

Oh wow, we have people complaining about G&W being a total failure, and about buffing Peach because she's boring.

A better Chef wouldn't do much for G&W, because it would be his only projectile option. He can't just stand back and throw sausages when he has so many better moves. He already spaces like crazy with his dtilt and aerials. He is well known to be ONE OF THE BETTER CHARACTERS in Brawl+, people here don't base their opinions off the vBrawl tier list.

 

[Kaitou Ace]

Why can't you read? This is not a big deal. This is a nightly suggestion that should be considered just to TRY IT OUT because G&W has no depth whatsoever which you did not deny. Everyone seriously needs to get over themselves.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

ok I asked a peach main (ryoko), and \he pretty much agreed that while cutting landing lag off up b would be nice, Faster horizontal movement on the up b would be more useful. what do you guys think about that?

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

We obviously have no room for this "depth" sh*t in our Brawl+. >_>

Seriously though, I don't think anyone will make the case that G&W is an outright bad character. He's just very shallow. Adding depth is something I could support.

However, why Chef? It doesn't seem like a projectile would compliment his game in any way. Not a G&W player, but how would a Chef buff give him any depth?

 

[GHNeko]

Oh wow, we have people complaining about G&W being a total failure, and about buffing Peach because she's boring.

A better Chef wouldn't do much for G&W, because it would be his only projectile option. He can't just stand back and throw sausages when he has so many better moves. He already spaces like crazy with his dtilt and aerials. He is well known to be ONE OF THE BETTER CHARACTERS in Brawl+, people here don't base their opinions off the vBrawl tier list.

PLEASE. GO BACK. AND READ THE POSTS PROPERLY.

Absolutely NO ONE is saying GaW is a total failure, or he sucks, or anything like that.

We're saying he's good but lacks DEPTH and we want to CHANGE that so that he has MORE depth and isnt stuck a 2-Dimensional character.

Pun ****ING intended.

Nerf his good options, buff his bad ones. Give him more choices and make him use his better ones less. That adds depth because it removes shallowness.

As for peach, that's like ONE person wanting to buffer her game a bit to spice her up. IF that person wants to do that, she's going to have to trade for it. :|


<_________________>

Come on now! You're a smart guy! Jeez.

 

[Revven]

Plus, Chef in and of itself is RANDOM. You'll never get the projectile you want (and even if you set it to only send out the right one, it still has random *** trajectories).

But I GUESS the only way to make anyone happy is to take everything away from everyone that doesn't need buffing so people can quit asking for something for G&W. /joke

 

[SymphonicSage12]

I kinda agree with tatsuman about game and watch. Buffing the chair or something would be more useful. Game and Watch just isn't a projectile kind of character. >.>

 

[Plum]

I fully agree that G&W is a viable character. I am not saying he isn't. I also understand that G&W is a better character in comparison to a lot of the cast. This is in the current metagame though.

What I know, what other G&W mains know, what Necko knows, and what some other players know is that G&W is too shallow to keep up with the metagame as it develops.

As it stands right now, G&W can be played full agro in B+ (as he should be played in the current metagame). This is all due to the reason that players simply don't know what to do against G&W.

I am not doubting anyone's ability to play at a top level, but if you are letting G&W stay on your *** and play full agro then you are doing something wrong. My playstyle with G&W right now is basically everything I wouldn't do in vBrawl, and did in the early days of vBrawl. Why? Because the other players let me get away with it. G&W seemed so good in the beginning of vBrawl because of his disjointed range and priority. Players had no idea how to get passed it and G&W mains took full advantage of it. Now look at how G&W is doing in vBrawl. Poorly, because every player in vBrawl knows exactly how to get past his wall of Bair, Nair, and Dtilt. All of G&W's once advantageous matchups are now slowly closing in on him and many are even for now. By the next release of the tier list I expect many of them to be disadvantages. All the initial shock value of G&W's priority and range is gone in vBrawl because players learned what to do against it. Worse yet, G&W can't kill in vBrawl because every player knows how to avoid all of his kill moves.

So what does vBrawl have to do with B+? For many characters not much at all, but for G&W, a character who really hasn't changed at all, enough for me to bring it up. G&W's core gameplay has shifted into B+ to compensate for the physics but all of his weaknesses are still there. His options are predictable, very few in number, and easy to get around once the other player figures it out.

Once you get past G&W's wall of agro he has nothing left. All of his other options are even worse then that. So how can you expect G&W to succeed after players figure out how to get past it? If the metagame never shifted from its current standpoint then I wouldn't be asking for anything for G&W. He can succeed perfectly fine right now. Yeah, right now. But like I said, its only a matter of time until all of you know how to get past Bair, Dtilt and Nair, and its only a matter of time until you realize what mistakes you are making that allow G&W to punish with smashes.

At this point I do not want direct buffs for G&W. I just want some depth to my main. G&W has plenty of room for tradeoffs, and there is no guarantee we get anything. For all I know, Necko is the only person in the WBR who feels more depth should be added into the game, and everything G&W mains propose is going to be immediately shot down. But what if we actually come up with some good ideas? It's not like G&W's matchups are going to be effected. If you lack the range to get past G&W (like Jiggly for example) you are still going to be in that position. If you have all the tools to shut him down (like Snake or Marth) then that is still going to happen. This is just going to prepare G&W for the shifting metagame so he doesn't end up in the bad position he is in vBrawl.

 

[Kaitou Ace]

G&W just isn't a projectile kind of character because it's not worth using.

Plus, Chef in and of itself is RANDOM. You'll never get the projectile you want (and even if you set it to only send out the right one, it still has random *** trajectories).

I thought about the random trajectories when I came up with the idea for the Chef buff. What I'm trying to get at is that Chef would not be used simply for it's projectile properties because if you just look at that, it's never worth using as G&W should always prefer his aerials. However, that wasn't what I'm saying at all. Chef needs to be buffed because the projectiles have great hitstun and can interrupt the other player, allowing G&W to use his great aerials with much easier usage. Think about it, does Peach really use Turnip because it's such a great damage racker and has amazing knockback? Not at all. Turnip is used as a distraction and interrupts the other player so that Peach is able to get in her stronger moves much more easily.

I just really hope you'll hear me out, Falco.

EDIT: what Plum said lololol

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Kaitou_Ace, I luv u no homo lol.


But seriously, you do have amazing points in your arguments.

 

[GHNeko]

I want depth for all characters, but I wont push it on any but my own unless there is already a movement started for a character by someone who isnt me (ie GaW mains atm). If a group of mains of a single character collectively think they want more depth, and can logically back it up with reasonable terms, I'll support them as long as we comprehend all, if not, most of the variables surrounding the overall change.

If worse comes to worse, we revert the change and the whole thing is dropped. If something gets in, there is no absolute guarantee that it WILL stay in for good. (ie Wolf Pillar Shine)

That is what testing does.

Let the GaW mains convince WBR, give reasonable trade offs, have their idea put into nightly, and let the testing occur.

They just have to convince WBR to allow the change to be tested. That's it. And WBR is full of intellegent people, so really, if a change proves to be too much, it'll be fixed/reverted. And it wont happen again.

There is nothing to lose. We have no dead line. We dont need to rush things. Let's take the time to really fine tune characters and make this game as deep and intersting as possible. :V

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Wow, GHNeko, that was just beautiful. ;(

 

[CloneHat]

I'd say make a trade off with his bair. It would be interesting to see how his playstyle has to change to compensate a weaker/smaller bair and even out those other options.

 

[Kaitou Ace]

It's true, though. B+ is a game that was made for the disgruntled vBrawl players. Considering this is an extended and rather large project, you need to experiment with everything as much as possible in order to ensure each player's satisfaction. vBrawl top tier characters are characters, too. They need attention just as much as Link and Ganon, etc.

There's no point in being so adamant to changes because it's definitely not permanent and it's for the benefit of the metagame.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

yeah, the kaitou said. Why cant you just try these things out? if you dont like them, guess what? you can remove them! or if everyone does like them and thinks that they benefit the game, then guess what? you can keep them in the codeset! :D

 

[GHNeko]

Okay, so now that we have the point across, GaW mains need to go figure out what they want to do. :V

They should probably get Hylian in the mix too. He's pretty much the automatic rep of GaW due to WBR status. <_<

Now if you excuse me, I have a 3 hour drive to a tourney for a day of friendlies. :V

 

[Melomaniacal]

So, my game freezes at the end of nearly every match. It also freezes fairly often before I get to the character selection screen. I am extremely careful about not holding in buttons, and yet I'm still getting crashes at the end of at least half of my matches.

What am I doing wrong here? Can this be fixed? Will this be fixed?
It's getting extremely frustrating.

 

[Revven]

So, my game freezes at the end of nearly every match. It also freezes fairly often before I get to the character selection screen. I am extremely careful about not holding in buttons, and yet I'm still getting crashes at the end of at least half of my matches.

What am I doing wrong here? Can this be fixed? Will this be fixed?
It's getting extremely frustrating.

Quoting ftw v

It's a very very frequent freeze, and it's probably a result of the CSS code. Anytime you enter the CSS, if you're pressing buttons too quickly, it will cause a freeze. This means when you're entering vs mode, when you're exiting a match, or when you're entering training mode. To avoid the freeze, take your time when navigating into vs mode or training mode - don't just hastily press buttons like you would in melee or vbrawl to get there as fast as possible, since this is only gonna end up delaying you more. On the results screen, wait for the winning player's victory taunt to play before pressing start to go back to the CSS (I usually wait to hear the victory taunt begin, and then slowly press start, pause a moment, press start, pause a moment, press start, allowing each new screen to load before pressing start again). It requires you to use slow deliberate button presses when navigating into the CSS, but as long as you do that, you should be fine.

 

[Wingflier]

QFT.

I do not agree to changing G&W in any way. Trade-offs or not, G&W at this point should stay the way he is unless he is truly proven to "suck" real bad. He may not be top, but, he's definitely high because of his ridiculous priority and range. There is no reason to change him, at all. You just want to because we basically can but, who says we're going to? We're not.

kthxbi.

I agree. Everybody keeps talking about how G&W is going to fall off the face of the earth when everyone figures out his metagame blah blah blah, like there aren't 100 other lower-tier characters with crappy and predictable movesets who are much worse off anyways.

Why don't we wait until G&W actually starts doing bad before we start fixing him? It just seems like common sense to me.

 

[Melomaniacal]

Right, but I already kind of assumed that was the problem, and I do take my time when going back to the CSS. Whatever, I'll just... get a drink after ever match... or something. Apparently a good 10 seconds isn't enough

 

[timothyung]

Trade offs will just give characters more depth to make the game more fun, but still balanced. Come on, trade offs are not buffs, because you trade a buff with a nerf.

 

[osh77]

I don't say that much in these parts but I just want to thank everyone again for making this into the game we all wanted when we first heard about brawl. Thank you all.

 

[Nybb]

I agree. Everybody keeps talking about how G&W is going to fall off the face of the earth when everyone figures out his metagame blah blah blah, like there aren't 100 other lower-tier characters with crappy and predictable movesets who are much worse off anyways.

Why don't we wait until G&W actually starts doing bad before we start fixing him? It just seems like common sense to me.

So you're saying that we should not give G&W more variety because we are not also instantly giving it to all other characters at the same time? I don't quite understand your logic; it's not like these G&W changes will be the last changes ever made.

If you think that there are other characters who are in need of some trade-offs in order to add depth (which I agree with), then start naming names and making suggestions. I'm pretty sure that's what Nightly Builds are for.

 

[Wingflier]

All I'm trying to say is that depth is not only something that the developers make, but also that the players can discover.

Hell, fox, arguably the most shallow and straightforward character in the game, can still be incredibly complex when used correctly.

Trade-offs are fine, we should just be careful about messing with characters who even the G&W mains agree have one of the best matchups in the game.

Wing

 

[empty]

Any chance of changing gannon's jump physics? in regular brawl the one thing he had going for him was that his low hop was the perfect height to use his jumping down A and get no lag. You could kind of hop around doing that move. Now you can't because his low hop is so short that the move lags on impact every time.

Could we maybe remove the lag of Gannon's Jumping down-A? Or, could we increase the height of his low hop?

 

[timothyung]

You can SH auto-cancel Ganon's stomp in Brawl+. The timing is a bit stricter though, if you are fast enough you should be able to auto-cancel the stomp.

 

[Revven]

Alternatively, you can turn your buffer up to about 50% and successfully stomp every time.

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

hey I've got a serious statement/question for once (omg skip srs no way).
why is it you guys can add hitstun/increase hitboxes and stuff but not edit throws/projectiles? im still kinda in the dark about all that.

my serrrious statement is that I rather just play melee half time whenever I go to a smashfest, but brawl+ is still pretty enjoyable. I just hope some characters can go into their ff's after specials. (not naming names this time lol)