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[GHNeko]

List of impractical moves on the top of my head

ness/lucas netral b

G@W chef IIRC this move stage spikes or something

samus bombs

zelda sourspots whaaaat zelda dair sour spot would like to have a word with you

wario downsmash

gannon uptilt loledgeguarding

falcon punch (anyone seen the difference from meele, its epic slolw now) too awesome to care about impracticality

links arrows are semi usesless ...err wat

ivysour dtilt

squirtle watergun ...That's basically saying that mario's fludd is impractical, and being that, I will argue to the ends of the earth how useful mario's fludd is. :V

is it possible to increas tripping chances on slow weak dtilts? No.

 

[Mystic101]

ok so I still think gannons uptilt is impractical

yes zeldas diair sourspot is ok (shes a great char though, worried about how they will change her)

why would u try a diffiult situational stage spike with chef when u hav dtilt- more reliable faster ive never seen one video of it happening?

I would like to see a bit of a power nerf on falcon punch and bit of a speedup because its more true to his "meele style" and lets us enjoy the awsomness more

and i know fludd is ok but i have always thought that it should do a but of damage- not much

well what I actually think it should do is be a hover fluud but yaaaaaa

 

[sagemoon]

pits up b need to be changed in the next update.... It's way too gimpable. Especially with gravity increase, it lost its mobility

 

[CountKaiser]

Well, there is a code that allows you to use WoI again after you've been hit out of it.

 

[sagemoon]

True, but it's not in the nightly code set

 

[FrozenHobo]

so when are we looking at getting the next nightly build?

 

[CyberGlitch]

I'd say the G&W chef needs work. This was already discussed on a G&W specific thread, but basically the wind down of the move needs a decrease. Stage spiking with the move is extremely situational. Currently, the move is so unpredictable, slow to start and end, and weak even when it does hit that use of it is mostly avoided.

The pan hit of it is also weaker than I'd prefer it to be, especially considering how hard it is to hit with it and easy it is to punish. At least give it the frypan sound when it hits, you you tried to do with the Mario forward air flub.

People complain about G&W lacking depth, giving him a semi-useful projectile might be just what he needs.

 

[XSilvenX]

I'd say the G&W chef needs work. This was already discussed on a G&W specific thread, but basically the wind down of the move needs a decrease. Stage spiking with the move is extremely situational. Currently, the move is so unpredictable, slow to start and end, and weak even when it does hit that use of it is mostly avoided.

The pan hit of it is also weaker than I'd prefer it to be, especially considering how hard it is to hit with it and easy it is to punish. At least give it the frypan sound when it hits, you you tried to do with the Mario forward air flub.

People complain about G&W lacking depth, giving him a semi-useful projectile might be just what he needs.

GaW players wanting a better projectile

 

[stingers]

GaW is balanced...why would you ask for a projectile

 

[XSilvenX]

Apparently having a terrific pressure game, one of the most annoying bairs in the game, ridiculous recovery and insane priority isn't enough. He needs a spammable projectile too. LOLOLOL

 

[JCaesar]

Cmon people, characters that are already good don't need every move to be useful. Something like Samus's bombs or especially Ganon's utilt, I can understand. But improving chef or watergun (which is already quite useful), are you crazy? o_O

 

[CyberGlitch]

Reducing winddown at the end in no way speeds up how fast the chef fires food or its slow startup. I'd hardly say this makes the move spamable, just usable. Even with this adjustment, the move would hardly be a comparable projectile to the majority of other projectiles. It's use is situational, but right now even when you hit with it its pretty useless, and even that is difficult to do because of its unpredictable firing direction.

I play as plenty of characters in Brawl+, in my experience G&W doesn't shine above the rest in some way that would make one shun an opportunity to add depth to him.

 

[thesage]

Ness' pk flash is fine. It can be a really good edgeguard... IMO his dtilt and d-smash are more useless lol.

 

[Revven]

so when are we looking at getting the next nightly build?

We've decided to hold it off for another week.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

These are moves that I feel need buffing and will add depth to a character:

Peach's up b. cut off a lot of the landing lag, to make it more of a useful as an attack, kinda like it was in Melee.

Luigi's down tilt: it can trip often, so it could become a decent combo starter if its cooldown were just a wee bit shorter.

Yoshi's bair: The hitboxes are just kinda weird, and it has low priority (i dont think you can change priority though.) So maybe tweaking the hitboxes of his bair woul help?

 

[GPDP]

Hey guys, been out for a while.

Any word on a code to modify the gravity settings of Up-B attacks? Almas told me such a code was in the works, but it seems it has not yet come to fruition. Which is a shame, since it's the only thing missing so far in allowing us to modify certain characters' gravity settings without messing up their recoveries.

 

[GHNeko]

Apparently having a terrific pressure game, one of the most annoying bairs in the game, ridiculous recovery and insane priority isn't enough. He needs a spammable projectile too. LOLOLOL

Recovery isnt all that good imo, NASL makes GaW an easy target when below the stage. But that's just from what I've seen.

Reducing winddown at the end in no way speeds up how fast the chef fires food or its slow startup. I'd hardly say this makes the move spamable, just usable. Even with this adjustment, the move would hardly be a comparable projectile to the majority of other projectiles. It's use is situational, but right now even when you hit with it its pretty useless, and even that is difficult to do because of its unpredictable firing direction.

I play as plenty of characters in Brawl+, in my experience G&W doesn't shine above the rest in some way that would make one shun an opportunity to add depth to him.

Take to GaW mains about it. GaW is a good character, so if you want this, the only way I see you're going to get that is through a trade off. Worsen one of his other moves to buff his Chef attack. Go bring it up in the GaW thread and see what GaW mains think about it.

These are moves that I feel need buffing and will add depth to a character:

Peach's up b. cut off a lot of the landing lag, to make it more of a useful as an attack, kinda like it was in Melee.

Luigi's down tilt: it can trip often, so it could become a decent combo starter if its cooldown were just a wee bit shorter.

Yoshi's bair: The hitboxes are just kinda weird, and it has low priority (i dont think you can change priority though.) So maybe tweaking the hitboxes of his bair woul help?

Yoshi's bair has decent priority, not low. :V
It's slightly disjointed IIRC.

and Luigi's dtilt can already link into fsmashes, why would you want to improve that. <_<

 

[Melomaniacal]

Speaking of buffs, I'm all for speeding up Ganon's up tilt drastically, and reducing the power.

He needs to be more manly, and that will do the trick.

 

[GHNeko]

Nothing is more manly than hitting someone with Ganon's Utilt or Warlock Punch. V:

 

[Wingflier]

Reducing winddown at the end in no way speeds up how fast the chef fires food or its slow startup. I'd hardly say this makes the move spamable, just usable. Even with this adjustment, the move would hardly be a comparable projectile to the majority of other projectiles. It's use is situational, but right now even when you hit with it its pretty useless, and even that is difficult to do because of its unpredictable firing direction.

I play as plenty of characters in Brawl+, in my experience G&W doesn't shine above the rest in some way that would make one shun an opportunity to add depth to him.

I've got one thing to say: Turtle.

/thread

 

[CountKaiser]

@Neko: What about Captain Falcon? :V

@Wing: Bair is overrated. It's certainly a good move, but it's still one move. Basing one's strategy around one move is bound to be countered sooner or later. It's why G&W is falling on the vBrawl tier list.

Though if we're going for buffs/tradeoffs, I'd take an ftilt buff over a chef buff, but that's me.

 

[GHNeko]

Turtle spamming really isnt all that effective. :/

Yea, it can give a few characters some hard time, but really, GaWs that spam turtle will probably get owned by a decent or good player. But that's just me.


EDIT: I was talking about only Ganon though. :V

And Ninja'd. ;__;

 

[Deleted member]

Ness' pk flash is fine. It can be a really good edgeguard... IMO his dtilt and d-smash are more useless lol.

hahahhahahhaahahhhaahhhhahahahaahahahaha

oh wait you were serious

 

[CountKaiser]

Dtilt isn't that useful, delorted. It doesn't combo, has crap range, and at best is situational. Even if used with PK Fire, it doesn't rack up that much damage. It's far more rewarding to follow up a PK Fire pillar with dthrow. Dsmash is just lol. I'm not sure what the buff was supposed to do, but I don't think it did it.

PK Flash, if nothing else, can force an AD.

 

[GHNeko]

You still need to properly time the flash as you really only get one chance to do it. :V

 

[Plum]

Is it honestly a problem to want depth to your character?

Every time I play on Green Greens I can use Chef to my hearts content, and I certainly don't think its wrong to wish I could do that on any stage given the situation. If you've played G&W on Green Greens then you probably know how borked that move is on Green Greens (Don't ever play G&W on Green Greens <3), so it's not like the move should be that good. All us G&W mains want is for the move to have some use. And any use you bring up for it is more than likely mimicked by a better move in G&W's moveset. It has the pan spike, but you mine as well use Fair. It can bait reactions, but so can Bair. It can be an onstage edgeguard, so can Dtilt.

G&W is a viable character, but by no means among the best. He is such a straight forward character that it really becomes only a matter of time before players know what to do against him. Look at vBrawl; he is just going to keep falling in ranks there because the top players know how to stop everything he can do. Looking at G&W matches from the early Brawl release to now and you see that G&W has massive problems killing, Bair actually becomes almost lack luster, and he actually becomes a very hard character to do well with. You can even SDI out of Bair and hit G&W right out of it. Very few people actually have success with G&W especially considering his hardest matchups consist of some of the best characters in the game (Snake, Marth, MK and Diddy).

G&W in terms of straight matchups would rank in the top 3 easily, but he still has the exact same matchup problems as he did in vBrawl which IMO holds him back more than anything. That, and he also lost a lot in the transition to B+. Some of his best aspects are gone in B+; his great survivability, resistance to strings and combos, and recovery.

Hitstun = no bucket braking, which means G&W is dying very early. Okay, maybe living past 200% is a bit crazy for the second lightest character, but look at his average life now. The top characters in B+ can kill him around 100-110%, even less for some. At the current moment, there is nothing that can be done about this, and I assume nothing will ever be done even if character specific hitstun was released.

No ASL really hurts G&W. His recovery was good in vBrawl because of the distance combined with ASL, but now the distance he gets is hurting him more than anything. G&W would have to go so stupidly low to sweetspot the ledge that it is useless to even try; not to mention that if you miss the sweetspot you get stuck onstage with massive amounts of lag for landing as G&W takes his parachute out. This forces G&W to recover high, which also has problems for leaving him as a sitting duck for characters who can hit him from high up much like Snake's recovery but without the ability to cancel in the middle.

Also, G&W isn't as floaty as other characters in his weight class. He isn't as easy as a fastfaller or heavy to combo, but the problem is how easy he is to combo for his weight. When he eats a combo, he is taking anywhere from 30-50 damage which is already 1/3 to 1/2 of his stock gone.

Now lets add on the character's natural weaknesses.

SO GOD**** PREDICTABLE. No real projectile, so he always has to approach. All his approach options are predicable (Bair), easily avoidable with a simple SH (Dtilt), lack enough range (Nair), or are just a bad idea (insert any other move here). He has to approach, but the top characters in the game can all basically outrange his approaches, or just have clear methods of stopping approaches.

Let me say something. Bair is not as good as people say. In vBrawl it has become stupidly bad for what was once a borked move; very easy to SDI out of, and G&W can then be hit out of it, outranged by a lot of the top ranked characters and not even all that safe on shield. In B+ you can still SDI out of it if you react fast enough (and the move is predicable enough to react fast enough to) and I've still seen some characters punish me for a spaced Bair even with increased hitstun by SDI'ing out of it early enough. As a defensive move it is great; high priority and disjointed range allow it to effectively wall out many approaches. As an approach it is really lacking because of how predicable it is, and how surprisingly punishable it is.

He has big problems killing. He can techchase Dthrow, but this is by no means guaranteed, and may not happen at all in a match considering the faster tech speed, buffering a shield out of the tech, and his horrible grab range. All of his smashes can be seen from a mile away; it doesn't matter how strong or high priority they are when you can't land them. Every time G&W mains figure out a new way to land kill moves (like abusing the charge time of his smashes, or using simple things like stutter stepping an Fsmash to abuse spacing) other players just adapt and make life just as hard for him again. Only way to kill with G&W is out of a huge mistake on your opponents part. Okay, he isn't the only character in this position as far as killing, but the other characters aren't the second lightest character in the game. G&W's design implies glass cannon but he simply can't be played as one.

G&W has trash techrolls, tech getups, getup attacks and ledge attacks. Even with the speedup of techs G&W still feels like he is teching ungodly slow. With G&W you can basically wait to see which direction he is going to tech and then punish instead of the standard predict and be rewarded. With his horrible getup options things just become worse as far as this goes. G&W can't take punishment, so being easy to punish in this aspect really hurts him.

G&W relies on initial shock value, or outright outplaying the opponent. Why do you think his tourney results have fallen so much in vBrawl? The shock value from vBrawl release is gone, people know how to fight G&W, stop his approaches, and avoid all of his kill options. In the highest level of play you can't simply outplay the opponent because we assume equal skill level here. Some characters can use stages to their advantage but in almost every circumstance the only stage that G&W shines on allowed in play is Rainbow Cruise which is easily banned by the other player (I rarely see tourneys allow Corneria or Green Greens). He is a character who is forced to approach but has surprisingly poor approach options. He dies earlier than he can effectively kill. He lacks ANY depth (the newest AT found for G&W was pretty much bucket braking forever ago...) and his matchups really hurt him despite having such a large amount of favorable matchups.

I realize that is a lot of negative things towards G&W; don't get me wrong about him though. I main G&W, love the character, and love playing him. Though I really feel that people need to really look at the character for what he is. Good, but not that good. There is no way G&W could be bad with his disjointed hitboxes and overall priority, but he isn't as good as people make him out to be. He is so predictable it isn't funny. I really don't see an issue with adding depth to the character.

People laugh at the idea of buffing G&W, but in all honesty why? It isn't like small tweaks have been given to already good characters. Giving enough endlag to allow a followup from Chef still makes it a fairly poor move. It would still be punishable if poorly spaced, would still have issues like the buffered flinging of food, would still be a poor projectile, and still nothing guaranteed about the move with the random trajectories. G&W mains are just asking for a reward for correctly using something in his arsenal.

I would even settle for the whole tradeoff thing. Something like a few more frames of startup on Dtilt for example, or maybe turn the pan spike into a bad thing for G&W to connect with. I don't truly think that is necessary, when you look at something like Falco's shine. Chef would play the same role as the shine; a situational move that isn't even guaranteed to start a combo, though serves a role as to add depth to a shallow combo game. Taking away any use for the pan spike would make it even more similar to the shine by forcing the user to really use the move correctly in order to have any sort of reward. And don't tell me G&W's combo game isn't shallow because the core of his combo game is stringing Nairs and Bairs together.

Shouldn't a consideration of Brawl+ be perfecting a characters gameplay? Balance should be the overlaying goal, though if a characters gameplay can be optimized and given depth without causing some shift in balance shouldn't it be at least tried before immediately shooting it down? I think a lot of work should be done for G&W for him to truly succeed in B+, and the best way to do that is the addition of depth to such a straightforward character. So maybe the only way to do this is through tradeoffs, which overall is fine. I would much rather have a more diverse character with more options overall than a character with single, though technically better option. On that note, I feel like the G&W players need to get together and discuss what can be done to keep his current options strong while giving him room for more diversity.

/rant.

 

[CountKaiser]

****, plum.

I'd say something in favor of giving G&W depth, but I'm pretty sure the wbr isn't changing their mind on G&W. He isn't bad, he's good. He certainly isn't top 10, nor is he bottom 10. Most likely they'll leave him be, since he's balanced as is in some odd way.

 

[timothyung]

I agree with you, Plum. We need more depth, so more trade offs are good.

 

[Hiemie]

I'm not a name searcher.

 

[jokey665]

I'm not a name searcher.

 

[GHNeko]

Plum, The Falco shine came at the cost of reduced damage on the lasers. :V

I'm all for giving GaW mains what they want, but unfortunately, it will probably be at a trade off.

Get with your mains man. You got a character discussion thread. :V

Just be careful what you offer up IF you offer up.

 

[weinzey]

i am all for the trade-off system, but u guys don't seem use consequently. like with luigi. he got two nerfs on his upb. one on aerial - i know, that its less now than before, but i dont really see a reason for it(=explain plz)- and the removal of jab>upb.
i know jab>upb was overpowered and had to be removed, but why not give him a buff instead? especially since luigi has some really buff-worthy things that won't make him much better(=broken) anyway, fi the landing lag of upb could be shortened now that it isnt as powerful anymore in order to keep the risk/reward ratio.
another thing that begs for change is the "plz spike me" position aka stuck in a wall after sideb. thats just utterly stupid (and still minor, since if u time sideb right it should only happen due to a misfire).

 

[GHNeko]

jab > up B was overpowered because it was a legit combo on over half the cast, and jab > dsmash worked on half the cast.

He's a solid character without it and he doesnt need any buffs nor was any requested. It was simply the removal of an over powered tactic. IE Marth Side B, Shiek Ftilt, etc etc.

And the up B was nerfed due to dthrow hitstun.

Just yesterday I saw Boss's luigi Dthrow to up B on Thunderhorses Falco, at like 90% on WW, and he even followed DI.

Without those things he's a good character (better than mario) and probably one of the better candidates for top 10.

Because of that he doesnt need a buff nor does he deserve one imo.

 

[weinzey]

i agree jab>upb is overrated, also mentioned that in my post.
marth and sheik are bad examples imo, because their game mostly consisted of db/ftilt only.

and that luig is a good character isnt a con for trading off something really, since the trade-off system is meant for meant for good ones.

i would like to hear the opinion of luigi mains before asking for buffs though. i was just sensing some injustice here

 

[GHNeko]

i agree jab>upb is overrated, also mentioned that in my post.
marth and sheik are bad examples imo, because their game mostly consisted of db/ftilt only.

and that luig is a good character isnt a con for trading off something really, since the trade-off system is meant for meant for good ones.

i would like to hear the opinion of luigi mains before asking for buffs though. i was just sensing some injustice here

I'd slap you as a Marth main on that statement about Marth's game. :V

But this is the internet, and words would not satisfy me. V:

And luigi is a good character, but as I said, we remove OP'd tactics. Bowser is horrible, but we still removed his grab release tactics. :V

Good or Bad, OP tactics must go, and if said character is good, removal of OP tactics do not warrent a trade off. :V

 

[shanus]

Hey guys, been out for a while.

Any word on a code to modify the gravity settings of Up-B attacks? Almas told me such a code was in the works, but it seems it has not yet come to fruition. Which is a shame, since it's the only thing missing so far in allowing us to modify certain characters' gravity settings without messing up their recoveries.

its part of the new engine codes which are being debugged

 

[weinzey]

I'd slap you as a Marth main on that statement about Marth's game. :V

But this is the internet, and words would not satisfy me. V:

And luigi is a good character, but as I said, we remove OP'd tactics. Bowser is horrible, but we still removed his grab release tactics. :V

Good or Bad, OP tactics must go, and if said character is good, removal of OP tactics do not warrent a trade off. :V

k, i get the point.
but u also fix stuff that doesn't work right/are not really competitive/sakurai messed up, right? (various 2-hit smashes, some of zelda's moves fi)
imo, being stuck in a wall after sideb fits into this category.

why was aerial upb overpowered/nerf-worthy, since it does not combo after dthrow?

 

[Yingyay]

i agree jab>upb is overrated, also mentioned that in my post.
marth and sheik are bad examples imo, because their game mostly consisted of db/ftilt only.

and that luig is a good character isnt a con for trading off something really, since the trade-off system is meant for meant for good ones.

i would like to hear the opinion of luigi mains before asking for buffs though. i was just sensing some injustice here

Not sure what kinda scrubby sheik you played that relies on ftilt. Plus is a character is good they wouldnt really need buffs or trade-offs unless the move was deteriorating the character from being viable or if the move made no sense.

Diddy Kong i noticed cant use specials after using the sideB-kick. Since diddy's rockets got sent to heck due to no-auto-sweetspotting, would it be possible to make diddy able to use upB after doing the sideB kick?

 

[cookieM0Nster]

Well, you don't have to kick while using Diddy's Side B. If you don't press A or B while doing the move, Diddy will not kick, and then you can use specials.

Try it out for yourself :/

 

[camelot]

edit: ^ what he said