Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[cookieM0Nster]

edit: ^ what he said

haha, ui got Ninja'd

 

[GuruKid]

Brawl+ livestream is up: http://www.ustream.tv/channel/brawl-smashfest

Currently in attendence: Blackanese (using the X_X tag), Basic Sausage (-.-), Silven, Khanti, Guru, and Shin.

Using the Latest Nightly Codeset.

 

[Magus420]

Luigi's dtilt can already link into fsmashes, why would you want to improve that. <_<

D-tilt->u-tilt doesn't start comboing until some point well into the 100s (and when it does it's already a KO move), and is twice as fast as f-smash. If you're talking about after a trip that doesn't work and they have more than enough time to roll or whatever. Unless it trips them it's actually unsafe on hit until maybe 70ish or something.

i am all for the trade-off system, but u guys don't seem use consequently. like with luigi. he got two nerfs on his upb. one on aerial - i know, that its less now than before, but i dont really see a reason for it(=explain plz)- and the removal of jab>upb.
i know jab>upb was overpowered and had to be removed, but why not give him a buff instead? especially since luigi has some really buff-worthy things that won't make him much better(=broken) anyway, fi the landing lag of upb could be shortened now that it isnt as powerful anymore in order to keep the risk/reward ratio.
another thing that begs for change is the "plz spike me" position aka stuck in a wall after sideb. thats just utterly stupid (and still minor, since if u time sideb right it should only happen due to a misfire).

The aerial up-b is a bit weaker, but the grounded one is the same as it was only 1 frame slower. I don't think the grounded up-b needs to be better than it already is. As for the exact reason why the aerial up-b kept some of the nerf I couldn't tell you, but perhaps to further separate the legit combo ranges with DI and the KO ranges of d-throw up-b (it does still work on floaties for a decent while and is 'theoretically' unavoidable during a small range for KOing with impeccable reaction time and timing on the Luigi's part). Either that or maybe because you can sometimes n-air into it and could stand to kill a little later.

I agree about the wall stuck thing, though if/when SDI wallteching becomes possible I don't think it'd matter and if they go off to hit you out of it and you teched you would be in the position to punish/edgeguard them instead.

jab > up B was overpowered because it was a legit combo on over half the cast, and jab > dsmash worked on half the cast.

Every character in the game except Wario, Yoshi, and Kirby actually.

And the up B was nerfed due to dthrow hitstun.

Just yesterday I saw Boss's luigi Dthrow to up B on Thunderhorses Falco, at like 90% on WW, and he even followed DI.

I haven't tested Falco specifically, but given his physics that really should not be working on him at that range and he could have jumped out if the throw was indeed DI'd properly (away is good; away and slightly downwards is slightly better).

 

[Yingyay]

Well, you don't have to kick while using Diddy's Side B. If you don't press A or B while doing the move, Diddy will not kick, and then you can use specials.

Try it out for yourself :/

I dont use diddy or nothing, I just thought it would be a good idea. My bad >_>

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

Brawl+ livestream is up: http://www.ustream.tv/channel/brawl-smashfest

Currently in attendence: Blackanese (using the X_X tag), Basic Sausage (-.-), Silven, Khanti, Guru, and Shin.

Using the Latest Nightly Codeset.

i don't think it's the latest nightly codeset. i was watching it, and mk's tornado had like no lag; link's buffs were not there, and tether grabs were still slow.

 

[Thunderhorse+]

I haven't tested Falco specifically, but given his physics that really should not be working on him at that range and he could have jumped out if the throw was indeed DI'd properly (away is good; away and slightly downwards is slightly better).

I don't like to get involved in these sorts of wetworks, but I'm just going to mention that I was mashing jump like a madman. It definitely worked. I couldn't believe it either and I completely expected to get out of it as well, but it really did.

 

[Magus420]

How did you DI the throw?

 

[Thunderhorse+]

Like so

1:15

10LuigiUpBs

 

[Magus420]

Oh ok, I thought we were talking about an aerial up-B which definitely wouldn't work on him with DI.

It looks like that grounded up-b probably combos Falco if you DI the throw away right around that percent though yeah. It also kind of looks like you might have hit the ground just before it hit but it's hard to tell because the framerate is really funky with duplicate frames thrown in and occasionally skips a good amount of them.


I had tested it into the grounded up-B on Fox and CF and it didn't work on them as Fox fell a little too fast and CF was too heavy so both could always tech. Sheik was able to be comboed by it when DI'ing the throw away at a certain small damage range, but iirc it happened at low enough damage where it didn't overlap with the KO range of aerial up-B so you could instead not DI away if grabbed at that percent to avoid being KOed.

In Falco's case there might be a small 5-15% range where you can land the grounded up-b on away DI and unlike others his weight, fall speed, and tumble animation are just right to have that range at high enough damage where aerial up-b can also KO in that same window. Before then you should be able to not DI away and avoid the grounded up-B and not die from the aerial one, and after then just DI away to avoid both.

 

[CloneHat]

That was definitely a WTF moment in that video. If you're Falco at that percent, with no chance to tech, I'd say you have a better chance of survival if you DI the throw up, since you'd only eat an uair or aerial UpB.

 

[Magus420]

Disregarding the platform that would have prevented an aerial up-B from hitting in that particular case, an aerial up-b would still kill Falco on that stage at that percent if it hit. Like I said, in Falco's case the small range where the grounded up-b likely works on away DI the aerial up-b is also able to kill when not DI'ed away.

 

[CloneHat]

So his only choice was to go for the platform? Tough life, being Falco.

 

[Wingflier]

Every time I play on Green Greens I can use Chef to my hearts content, and I certainly don't think its wrong to wish I could do that on any stage given the situation. If you've played G&W on Green Greens then you probably know how borked that move is on Green Greens (Don't ever play G&W on Green Greens <3)

Okay so let me get this straight: You are basically admitting that G&W is unbelievably good on Green Greens, so much so that he's like undefeatable because of Chef; and you are also asking it to be buffed to have the same effect on all other stages. Why would we want that?

G&W is a viable character, but by no means among the best.

G&W is high tier, a place that most characters in B+ only dream of.

Look at vBrawl; he is just going to keep falling in ranks there because the top players know how to stop everything he can do.

Every character in B+ has a weakness and bad matchups. This isn't vBrawl anymore, so I don't think we can realistically compare it as such.

Very few people actually have success with G&W especially considering his hardest matchups consist of some of the best characters in the game (Snake, Marth, MK and Diddy).

First of all, the majority of characters have trouble against those matchups anyways. Marth, Snake, and MK in particular are just solid characters that most everybody is going to have a hard time against. If those are G&W's only bad matchups you should be thankful, not upset.

G&W in terms of straight matchups would rank in the top 3 easily

That's exactly what we're saying, he's already really good, why would you want to make this even worse?

No real projectile, so he always has to approach.

There are many characters with "no real projectile". Also, he doesn't always have to approach, he has the bucket which can absorb many projectiles and oil panic which is actually a projectile itself.

All his approach options are predicable

And you think he is unique in this? There are far worse characters with predictable approach options.

G&W relies on initial shock value, or outright outplaying the opponent.

Outplaying the opponent is a bad thing?

People laugh at the idea of buffing G&W, but in all honesty why? It isn't like small tweaks have been given to already good characters.

I haven't seen any "small tweaks" to good characters for awhile now. For the most part, when people come on the boards asking for small tweaks to good characters they are asked to make trade-offs.

I would even settle for the whole tradeoff thing

Good

I think a lot of work should be done for G&W for him to truly succeed in B+, and the best way to do that is the addition of depth to such a straightforward character.

There are many "straightforward" characters in Brawl, and I'm sure some of them need help just as much or more as G&W. Also, with the trade-off system, you can make him a more complex character, albeit at a price.

Wing

 

[Mattnumbers]

Oil Panic doesn't count as a projectile IIRC.

And he has a point, G&W does lack depth.

 

[Thunderhorse+]

G&W does lack depth.

Perhaps he could use...some extra dimension?

zing!

 

[GHNeko]

GaW is one of the more shallow characters, but unlike Fox and Marth, his moveset isn't good enough to cover for his shallow metagame. :V

There is nothing wrong with adding depth, but you just have to realize unless you suck there is a price to pay.


EDIT: @Thunderhorse: NO YOU DID NOT JUST MAKE THAT JOKE HOLY **** GUY I LOVE YOU I WANT TO BARE YOUR CHILDREN

 

[Christopher Rodriguez]

LOL get ***** on that joke

smashers have the best humor ever.

 

[crazycrackers]

G&W is very straight foward. I'd definately like to see some tradeoffs personally.

Also: LOL at that joke XD

 

[GHNeko]

Looks like the GaW mains have something they can actually do with back up from other smashers.

And lol, I'm ****ing sigging that joke. I'm sorry. Its too good.

 

[Plum]

Okay so let me get this straight: You are basically admitting that G&W is unbelievably good on Green Greens, so much so that he's like undefeatable because of Chef; and you are also asking it to be buffed to have the same effect on all other stages. Why would we want that?
I mentioned how I don't want the move to be at that freakish level of ****. Just saying how Green Greens shouldn't be the only stage the move serves a real purpose on. The layout of Green Greens turns chef into a wall that stops almost every approach in the game, while the platforms about prevent approaches from above without giving G&W plenty of time to react. If the move was like that at all times then it would be borked.

G&W is high tier, a place that most characters in B+ only dream of.
He his high tier until you figure out how to get around him. Being such a straightforward character means he has very few options. Once you get past the best options (like walling with Bair and Dtilt) he becomes so easy to ****. Its because all of his other options are so bad in comparison that it isn't even a challenge to get past those. The same can be said for Marth; get past his Fair and things become much easier. The difference is that it is much harder to get past Marth's few options than G&W's.

Every character in B+ has a weakness and bad matchups. This isn't vBrawl anymore, so I don't think we can realistically compare it as such.
True, though when a weakness has the potential to cripple a character at the highest level of play (his lack of any depth) then I think it deserves to be looked into. Some weaknesses should always stay, such as having poor priority, being a huge hurtbox, recovery issues or weight but depth is something that can be fixed without altering the problems a characters natural properties make.

First of all, the majority of characters have trouble against those matchups anyways. Marth, Snake, and MK in particular are just solid characters that most everybody is going to have a hard time against. If those are G&W's only bad matchups you should be thankful, not upset.
True, they are top characters because they have such good matchups, and having an easy time against weaker characters is great to a degree. But the viability of a character can largely be determined on how they compete against the most common and best characters in the metagame.

That's exactly what we're saying, he's already really good, why would you want to make this even worse?
See above comment in regards to his matchups

There are many characters with "no real projectile". Also, he doesn't always have to approach, he has the bucket which can absorb many projectiles and oil panic which is actually a projectile itself.
The bucket is very laggy and easily punishable. It can even be used against G&W by forcing him to either eat a charged projectile or bucket it and get punished for bucketing. Also, it can't do anything against a large portion of projectiles. Missiles, bombs, grenades, arrows, iceblocks, gyros, boomerangs and etc cannot be absorbed so can still be spammed as much as the other player wants.

And you think he is unique in this? There are far worse characters with predictable approach options.
Maybe there is, but the difference is that as a G&W main I want something done about it. If other characters have trash approaches and want to discuss with the WBR about how to improve the situation then they are free to do so as well. There isn't even a guarantee that anything will ever happen to G&W, but if we can work out a balanced system of tradeoffs then I am going to push for it.

Outplaying the opponent is a bad thing?
It shouldn't be the only way for a character to win. It's exactly why he is doing so poor in vBrawl. At the highest level of play we assume opponents are of equal skill, so there really isn't room to be the better player. G&W's tourney results in vBrawl show it. Yes I understand that vBrawl is a different game, but G&W's options have remained the same in the transition of vBrawl. His playstyle is different in B+ but his predictability is still there in full force. Predictability is making him harder and harder to play in vBrawl and the same is going to happen in B+ with enough time.

There are many "straightforward" characters in Brawl, and I'm sure some of them need help just as much or more as G&W. Also, with the trade-off system, you can make him a more complex character, albeit at a price.
G&W can definitely spare some nerfs here and there, and if it is going to give his plethora of useless moves a reason to be used then it will be well worth it. Whether its damage nerfs (17% Nair that links into itself like 3 times in a row? That can be nerfed in some way) Maybe give the last hit of Bair a less favorable KB angle. Startup lag on Dtilt, lessening Fsmash's lingering hitbox, or something along those lines. If it's going to give him depth then I'm all for it.

Wing

Comments in orange.

 

[Wolf of Ice]

That was awesome, Thunderhorse.

 

[GHNeko]

I really dont see what the problem is with buffing GaWs lack luster options in exchange for nerfing his viable options to the point where their viablity is actually proportionate with each other.

o rite. There is nothing wrong with that.

 

[Wingflier]

I don't mind making trade-offs for game and watch, I'm just concerned with messing with already top tier characters. Granted, G&W is no Marth or Metaknight, but hell neither is 90% of the rest of the cast.

True, they are top characters because they have such good matchups, and having an easy time against weaker characters is great to a degree. But the viability of a character can largely be determined on how they compete against the most common and best characters in the metagame.

Yes, that's great and all, but you admitted yourself that G&W has maybe the 3rd best matchups of any character; if you make it so that the characters that can beat him start having troubles, then wouldn't that be overpowered?

If you want a character that can beat Marth, MK, and Snake, pick a secondary. Don't buff G&W so he has good or even matchups against everybody.

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

fred flintstone should be a playable/tourney viable character.
yabba dabba doo

 

[CyberGlitch]

Plum, you reflect my attitude on this pretty well.

And concerning the comment that there are other players too who have hard times approaching, this may be true, but several of these characters have projectiles they can spam to force the other player to approach them, or they have great speed to help them compensate (like Captain Falcon).

G&W doesn't have this...he has a few predictable and punishable approach options, and he's more or less forced to make the approach without a move to throw out and pressure the opponent. Furthermore, unlike other characters with this weakness, G&W has a huge disadvantage in being a very light character, yet still easy to combo. This means that failed approaches can be punished very hard.


Before looking into what an appropriate tradeoff would be (the alteration to the last hit of the back air Plum mentioned could be a good one, since people are apparently have a grudge against the moves effectiveness), I'd like to experiment with the alteration to the move itself, reducing the winddown of it. I don't suspect it'll be as big a buff as you guys would seem to imply. A sped up startup, now that'd be a buff, but we'll see. I want to test this myself to see how effectively it'd help G&W, but I don't know which values to modify. Could someone point me in the right direction?

I still see the move as a situational move, but one that'd at least be worth hitting with. I don't think it'd be much of an approach, but I could be wrong.


I have another suggestion, given the new hitbox code...could Jigglypuff's downsmash hitbox be made larger? Currently I find the move laughable.

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

squirtle should be heavier, I've mained squirtle and it seems that I die too easy. he's a beast offstage and has a good recovery but he should live longer so he can better than the other characters.

 

[XSilvenX]

n I have another suggestion, given the new hitbox code...could Jigglypuff's downsmash hitbox be made larger? Currently I find the move laughable.

It actually works decent as an edgeguard. If you're using it on stage then it's crap. Use it in it's situation and you'll be fine. Glick dsmashes me when I misjudge my upb and it's pretty much death after that.. so yeah.



Plum you can't be seriously agreeing with making Chef better... because having a projectile that spews out random sausages will help him approach right..? *_* C'mon man, GAW is meant to be played aggro, not standing in the back throwing sausages.... All of the good GaWs I've played have been on my *** 24/7 with his crazy aerials. But hey don't take my word for it, let's continue to play more theory smash and come up with some other reason he needs these buffs or tradeoffs



Neko - I think you're forgetting a few things about GaW's recovery. The sheer fact that you don't go into freefall after it makes his recovery extremely versatile compared to other characters in the game not to mention the wind that follows it. You're not supposed to go for the ledge if you can afford not to..I mean, why would you when you can upb to dair, or upb to whatever. His recovery...is amazing. You're only looking at one aspect of recovery which is sweetspotting. Because there's NASL does not really even matter all that much since GAW truly doesn't need it unless he gets knocked horizontal which rarely happens with decent DI.

 

[CloneHat]

squirtle should be heavier, I've mained squirtle and it seems that I die too easy. he's a beast offstage and has a good recovery but he should live longer so he can better than the other characters.

Tourney results=Squirtle

 

[shanus]

people need to realize that making changes just because we can doesn't make a balanced game, nor does it always make better options.

 

[Revven]

people need to realize that making changes just because we can doesn't make a balanced game, nor does it always make better options.

QFT.

I do not agree to changing G&W in any way. Trade-offs or not, G&W at this point should stay the way he is unless he is truly proven to "suck" real bad. He may not be top, but, he's definitely high because of his ridiculous priority and range. There is no reason to change him, at all. You just want to because we basically can but, who says we're going to? We're not.

kthxbi.

 

[JCaesar]

squirtle should be heavier, I've mained squirtle and it seems that I die too easy. he's a beast offstage and has a good recovery but he should live longer so he can better than the other characters.

Something tells me Skip was being facetious...

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Ok, I get why buffing Weegee's down tilt and Yoshi's bair would be unnecessary; but what about Peach's Upb?

 

[CloneHat]

This

people need to realize that making changes just because we can doesn't make a balanced game, nor does it always make better options.

plus this

Ok, I get why buffing Weegee's down tilt and Yoshi's bair would be unnecessary; but what about Peach's Upb?

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Wow, Clonehat, someone didnt read between the lines. I was trying to make one of Peach's more useless moves (as an attack) more viable, so that She would be a more balanced fighter. If you wanted a nerf to balance it or something, I would have no idea, but I could think of something. And this would make Peach more versatile and balanced.

>__________________________________________________________________________>

 

[Wolf of Ice]

Wow, Clonehat, someone didnt read between the lines. I was trying to make one of Peach's more useless moves (as an attack) more viable, so that She would be a more balanced fighter. If you wanted a nerf to balance it or something, I would have no idea, but I could think of something. And this would make Peach more versatile and balanced.

>__________________________________________________________________________>

Explain how this would 'make her a more balanced fighter'?

 

[GHNeko]

people need to realize that making changes just because we can doesn't make a balanced game, nor does it always make better options.

QFT.

I do not agree to changing G&W in any way. Trade-offs or not, G&W at this point should stay the way he is unless he is truly proven to "suck" real bad. He may not be top, but, he's definitely high because of his ridiculous priority and range. There is no reason to change him, at all. You just want to because we basically can but, who says we're going to? We're not.

kthxbi.

Falco and Zelda says sup again.

I fail to see, if the majority of the mains who play GaW and know him well want depth to their character and are willing for trade offs, and even people who dont use GaW aren't objecting to it, and the GaW mains give reasonable trade-offs, give reasons behind it, and conduct their requests in a fashionable format, why we shouldn't follow through with their request.

They've got legitmate reasons. GaW is a shallow character yes. The way to remove/reduce that shortcoming by instilling depth into GaW by making more of his moves have a purpose other than "useless" or situational. They understand that GaW is a good character and would nerf his viable moves with little hesitance in order to obtain depth and make a shallow character less 1-Dimentional.

You could argue that this is happen because we simply have the ability, but then you can use that as a blanket statement over the whole project of Brawl+.

Depth is a good thing guys. Brawl+ needs more of it. This is a way of adding depth.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

@ Wolf of Ice: It would give her more options for attacking/and/or combos than just dair dair dair dair uair, or other dair combos. It would make her less....for lack of a better term, boring. Her versatility would increase because of more attacking and more combo options. =more balanced. Well, maybe I should include a nerf. Idk..maybe make her jab slower or something. idk about a nerf to balance it. =S



Oh, and just to reiterate, by "buff" her up b, I mean shorten the landing lag. As of now, its landing lag is pretty bad.

 

[GHNeko]

If you can get the peach mains to agree with you.

I do have to disagree with you on the boring part. She's one of the deeper characters simply because she uses a good portion of her moveset.

 

[Wolf of Ice]

Okay, I just wanted to make sure you actually had something to back that up with =P

 

[SymphonicSage12]

at ghneko: A character could use a good portion of their moveset and still be boring. Yes, Peach does use a lot of her moves. However, on very single peach vid I see, they almost always come out the same way.

1. dair, dair, etc.
2. ftilt>utilt
3. dthrow dthrow
4. spacing fairs


You could expand to her BORINGness by shortening up b's landing lag, which would in turn make it more viable to add to and expand to these 1-dimensional combos.