Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

[Mattnumbers]

Stingers, Zelda's Fsmash cannot be escaped I KNOW that.

EDIT: Actually maybe if you hit them with the very tip of it, but that shouldn't pull them in anyways.

 

[PKNintendo]

Guys the nightly comes out shortly after that picture of Ness is posted.

The double Nagging one with Robotnik and a nuke!

 

[Mattnumbers]

I have it on bookmarks but It's already been used for this release.

 

[cAm8ooo]

basically yeah. If kirby absorbes your power, you can hit him back immediately. Peach can even float and hit him with whatever she wants

Kirby's copy is punishable at every percent, so there's no "right" way to use it <_<

I knew i liked you DS. Finally, a man who gets it.

 

[stingers]

basically yeah. If kirby absorbes your power, you can hit him back immediately. Peach can even float and hit him with whatever she wants

well yes, I knew that, did you finish reading? lol

kirby's copy isn't a move in and of itself, swallow is the move. then you have a choice to either spit them out or use the copy. if you use the copy, you have a chance of getting daired, but you also get the other persons neutral B, which is, you know, pretty awesome. or you can spit them out and, if it works like DDDs (not sure if it does), mashing a button will cancel the spit out animation earlier and you won't go as far, meaning the kirby can punish you for it. so if your opponent knows about the dair after copy and tries to spam dair to hit you asap, then spit them out and punish. otherwise, make a choice and figure out what the best option is.

not to mention i find the concept of buffing kirby further silly, who cares if one of his moves isn't perfect? the character is good enough already, it doesn't need to be unpunishable. i don't see you guys fixing jiggs sing lol.

 

[Lucina Clash]

Guys the nightly comes out shortly after that picture of Ness is posted.

The double Nagging one with Robotnik and a nuke!

Nightly is not for a long time, PKNintendo... next release is an official release!!! :-)

 

[PKNintendo]

Okie Dockie!

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Oh, wait.. I have an idea to make kirby copy not as punishable...


maybe cut a little endlag off of it.... :V

or...speed up the lag after you release them :V


omg am I cool nao

 

[cAm8ooo]

well yes, I knew that, did you finish reading? lol

kirby's copy isn't a move in and of itself, swallow is the move. then you have a choice to either spit them out or use the copy. if you use the copy, you have a chance of getting daired, but you also get the other persons neutral B, which is, you know, pretty awesome. or you can spit them out and, if it works like DDDs (not sure if it does), mashing a button will cancel the spit out animation earlier and you won't go as far, meaning the kirby can punish you for it. so if your opponent knows about the dair after copy and tries to spam dair to hit you asap, then spit them out and punish. otherwise, make a choice and figure out what the best option is.

not to mention i find the concept of buffing kirby further silly, who cares if one of his moves isn't perfect? the character is good enough already, it doesn't need to be unpunishable. i don't see you guys fixing jiggs sing lol.

First off. This is hardly a buff. Few characters in the game have moves that are worth copying. If you would like to call it a trade off considering he is getting more nerfs in this coming set then lets call it that. Believe me, less range on b-air is MUCH worse then not being hit for copying someone. And really, i dont have a option. I have to spit them out or im gonna get hit as long as their not stupid. They have plenty of time to see the copy animation and hit dair. You dont have to spam it.


Second. You still dont seem to understand. You CAN use sing and not get punished. It's called canceling it with the ledge/water. Kirby cannot do this. A lot of times, you will copy your opponent, he'll dair you which can often lead to another move which knocks your power out. You basically just took 20-40% for doing a few percents to your opponent. It's not so much a buff as it is a fix. You say the move is not "Perfect", i say the move doesnt work.

The risk/reward aspect of the move is completely unbalanced.


Edit: @sage- There is a value called 0F that gives hitstun. Just give it a bit of hitstun and its fixed.

 

[Scidadle]

Falco's shine shouldn't pull people in IMO.

He's unnecessarily buffed. Too much laser mobility aswell.

 

[leafgreen386]

Nightly is old news. I hear there's like, a 57.286% chance we're supposed to get an official tonight.

LEAFGREEN PROMISED.

I think it was 57.274% actually

You're both wrong. It was 57.269%. There's a 72.7403% chance of a release tomorrow, though!

Falco's shine shouldn't pull people in IMO.

He's unnecessarily buffed. Too much laser mobility aswell.

No.

 

[Scidadle]

YEAHHH YEAH HE ISS

NOO YOUR WRONG AND STOOOPID.

caps.

I'm totally getting an infraction for that

 

[stingers]

This is hardly a buff.

I found that funny.

I know they don't have to spam dair to hit you, you also don't have to use copy in the first place. If there's a power worth having, like Olimars, or ROBs, or Pits, or Falcos, or what have you, I think that you have to make a decision whether the possibility of being punished is worth it.

You can't say the risk/reward aspect of the move is completely unbalanced, against Falco it's more than worth it to take one Dair to get some Falco Lasers, against GaW it's not worth it to get Key'd for sausages. It's a character specific decision, just because you won't get it for free against everyone doesn't mean you have the right to have it changed, ESPECIALLY considering Kirby is already a very good character and doesn't need changes to his game. As I've said before, Jiggs sing isn't getting buffed any time soon.

Oh and yeah, I saw, you can ledge cancel sing and not get punished for it. Woohoo, you have 1/20th of the stage that you can get a sing off if your opponent is an idiot and runs over to you on the ledge knowing he might get ledgehop sung. I don't see how that's any different from the small chance you might not get punished for landing your copy because your opponent is an idiot and doesn't Dair you, but whatever @.@

 

[cAm8ooo]

I found that funny.

I know they don't have to spam dair to hit you, you also don't have to use copy in the first place. If there's a power worth having, like Olimars, or ROBs, or Pits, or Falcos, or what have you, I think that you have to make a decision whether the possibility of being punished is worth it.

You can't say the risk/reward aspect of the move is completely unbalanced, against Falco it's more than worth it to take one Dair to get some Falco Lasers, against GaW it's not worth it to get Key'd for sausages. It's a character specific decision, just because you won't get it for free against everyone doesn't mean you have the right to have it changed, ESPECIALLY considering Kirby is already a very good character and doesn't need changes to his game. As I've said before, Jiggs sing isn't getting buffed any time soon.

Oh and yeah, I saw, you can ledge cancel sing and not get punished for it. Woohoo, you have 1/20th of the stage that you can get a sing off if your opponent is an idiot and runs over to you on the ledge knowing he might get ledgehop sung. I don't see how that's any different from the small chance you might not get punished for landing your copy because your opponent is an idiot and doesn't Dair you, but whatever @.@

I could write out another long post but im tired of debating with you considering that your mind is pretty much set/you seem to have a hatred for kirby.

I dont care WHO the character is. I dont care if it's metaknight. If you have a move in the game that is 100% punishable 100% of the time no matter what you do then i want it fixed.

There is no other move in the game like this and if there was i would be fighting for a fix for it just as hard. It's not a matter of buffs or nerfs. It's a matter of fixing a move that was incorrectly done by the programmers. (dont even argue that they did it on purpose, if you do give me proof from any smash game that there is another move like it)

 

[stingers]

darn, now i can't use my "sakurai secretly hates kirby and wanted to ruin him by making his copy punishable" argument

it's not 100% of the time because if you spit them out, you can't be punished. but whatever.
it's not 100% of the time because not every character can punish it. but whatever.

not to mention, metaknight does happen to have a move that can be punished 100% of the time. it's tornado. congrats, better start fighting for that tornado buff...

 

[dabridge]

Diddy Kong needs attention, nao. Will his recovery will stay this horrible? It's honestly the reason why I don't play him much. I just want to know.

 

[WheelOfFish]

Diddy's recovery isn't horrible, you just can't aim straight at the edge like you could in vBrawl.

 

[cAm8ooo]

darn, now i can't use my "sakurai secretly hates kirby and wanted to ruin him by making his copy punishable" argument

it's not 100% of the time because if you spit them out, you can't be punished. but whatever.
it's not 100% of the time because not every character can punish it. but whatever.

not to mention, metaknight does happen to have a move that can be punished 100% of the time. it's tornado. congrats, better start fighting for that tornado buff...

Copying the character is what i want fixed. Not spitting them out. If you copy the character, you will get punished 100% of the time if the opponent knows anything about kirby (considering we make buffs and nerfs looking at high to top level play then this knowledge is assumed). Copy and spit out are not the same move though they are started using the same move. I wouldnt call DK's up cargo throw the same as his down throw. These are TWO separate moves. Saying "just use the other one" doesnt fix the other.

Actually, yes. I'm pretty positive every character in the game can punish him for it.

And no. You can use tornado and not get punished for it. Are you telling me that there is no way, at all, at any reasonable percent that you can use tornado and not have such a terrible frame disadvantage that you dont get punished? I believe your wrong sir.

 

[stingers]

I look at it like this: Copy and Spit out are two halves of the whole that make up swallow, they are not different moves, just different parts of the same move. I guess it's a matter of viewpoints. I don't know how in all good conscience you can ask for Kirby buffs though, lol.

It's a matter of whether or not you're willing to take some damage in order to get a new move in your arsenal, that's the way I see it. I mean, if you got a guaranteed 10% every time you used Copy and there was nothing you could do about it and that's the way it's been since 64, I doubt you'd be complaining about it now. It's a tradeoff for such a valuable move that literally changes the way you approach the matchup, mid-match. Even the threat of it is powerful enough to stop characters with excellent B moves to play carefully enough that they don't get swallowed. You won't see many Olimars within swallow range in that matchup...

In Brawl+, at top level play, you can't honestly tell me tornado is a viable move...well, as a recovery its useful I guess, but...

 

[CountKaiser]

That's nice, except it seems that kirby loses new abilities rather easily in this game, so a good combo from being punished can potentially remove any advantage kirby initially gained.

 

[stingers]

its not actually that easy to start a combo from this (unless you're peach) because you're moving up while the dair is going off, so they'd have to be sent straight up to you for you to continue...

or your dair must have some insane amounts of hitstun...but thats brawl+ for you

 

[Deleted member]

bah. kirby mains asking for their move to be fixed? how about neutering the rest of his moveset first

 

[bob-e]

I demand that Falco's jab gives me a free grab every time, not just when I catch my opponent off guard. I mean, there are other characters who can combo jab -> grab. It's just not fair that I can get punished for trying something that can give me a good reward.
\sarcasm

In all seriousness, are these last minute ideas actually being tried? This build has been slated for release "today or tomorrow" almost a week.

 

[NC-Echo]

You can demand things for your character when he isn't really good as is.

 

[cAm8ooo]

bah. kirby mains asking for their move to be fixed? how about neutering the rest of his moveset first

He is actually getting another nerf, one that i WANTED in. It's not as if im a Ness main constantly asking for buffs. I just want a move that does not work right to be fixed. Just consider it as a trade off.

After this b-air nerf, kirby is essentially gold. I've seen the list myself of gold characters. He is not OP. Perhaps you should work on the matchup instead of wanting to neuter the moveset of a character who doesnt need it.


@stingers- We obviously see this with two different perspectives. Two of which that wont change. It's a matter of what the WBR sees. We have both stated our arguments so I'm done spamming the thread about it. We will just have to see what the WBR cooks up after this next set.

 

[metaXzero]

@stingers

By your logic, all Z throws are just parts of the same move. Do you agree?

Anyway, if successfully Swallowing (or Inhaling), then Copying your opponent leads to an uavoidable retaliation with the potential of knocking away your ability, why would you bother even Copying? I'm fine with moves overshadowing others by being better (like Snakes F-tilt near-completely overshadowing F-Smash or Jiggs' air-game in general completely beating her ground game), but how can anyone approve of attacks being punishable on hit? Every attack besides Copy at the very LEAST doesn't leave the you at a frame disadvantage when used a certain way (usually at higher percents). Even MK's Tornado in Brawl+ doesn't leave you so horribly open if at a certain percent.

And you've gotta remember, this isn't going to be a straight up buff. Kirby's recieving a B-air nerf next set, so making Copy function like it should would be a trade-off. Heck, it's not even close to an even trade-off lol (not that I'm asking for an even trade-off for a nerfed B-air).

 

[Deleted member]

i'm quite confident i could beat most kirby mains at the ness kirby matchup simply because i've had so much practice. it doesn't make kirby any less broken though.

 

[GHNeko]

...idk. Just copy moves that are worth getting hit on swallow? <_<

Even if it is "fixed", there will still be seldom specials you'll actually want to use and overshadow the kirbycide potential. :V

 

[Mattnumbers]

@stingers

By your logic, all Z throws are just parts of the same move. Do you agree?

Anyway, if successfully Swallowing (or Inhaling), then Copying your opponent leads to an uavoidable retaliation with the potential of knocking away your ability, why would you bother even Copying? I'm fine with moves overshadowing others by being better (like Snakes F-tilt near-completely overshadowing F-Smash or Jiggs' air-game in general completely beating her ground game), but how can anyone approve of attacks being punishable on hit? Every attack besides Copy at the very LEAST doesn't leave the you at a frame disadvantage when used a certain way (usually at higher percents). Even MK's Tornado in Brawl+ doesn't leave you so horribly open if at a certain percent.

And you've gotta remember, this isn't going to be a straight up buff. Kirby's recieving a B-air nerf next set, so making Copy function like it should would be a trade-off. Heck, it's not even close to an even trade-off lol (not that I'm asking for an even trade-off for a nerfed B-air).

Actually I would argue that you can just call this a Useless move. It doesn't matter how bad a move is, if the character never has a use for it, it could be better than 90% of the moves in the game and still be just as useless as a move that guarantees punishment on hit and doesn't give much reward. All in all, if a character had a move that made him lose a stock each time he used it.......he would just never use it. And if a character had a move that's very good, but it's almost a carbon copy of another move just slightly worse, he would also never use it. So just because it punishes you for using it, it still basically functions the same as any other useless move, which are not at unique to Kirby.

Also, Kirby has gotten these nerfs because the WBR decided he needed to be nerfed, so giving him a counterbuff would remove the whole reason they nerfed him in the first place >_>.

 

[colored blind]

...idk. Just copy moves that are worth getting hit on swallow? <_<

Even if it is "fixed", there will still be seldom specials you'll actually want to use and overshadow the kirbycide potential. :V

This. Usually your reward for a successfully hitting with an attack is damage or a combo. In this case, your reward is the use of the B move. If it's worth getting hit to get the B move, then use it.

Basically, is there any Neutral B that's worth getting Dair'd for? Because if there is, the move has a use, and doesn't really need to be fixed. I'd say Falco Lasers, Pikmin Throw, and 'Nades are at least worth getting hit for.

 

[Sterowent]

all these arguments against Kirby (KIRBY) being able to safely copy (COPY) an opponent's move don't take into account exactly how character-defining this Neutral B move is.

While B+'s goal is to make a competitive smash game more than anything, you can't deny what this is at its core: a Smash Game. This is a game revolving around a bunch of nintendo characters.

Kirby's most defining characteristic of all is his ability to copy. The fact that this ability is 100% punishable is absurd not just because the move is marginally useful (in most cases) but in the fact that it discourages the kirby user to make use of his character's Most Canon Ability. What the hell.

 

[metaXzero]

i'm quite confident i could beat most kirby mains at the ness kirby matchup simply because i've had so much practice. it doesn't make kirby any less broken though.

What? Isn't that why we are nerfing his B-air? What does this have to do with Copy being punishable on hit?

...idk. Just copy moves that are worth getting hit on swallow? <_<

Even if it is "fixed", there will still be seldom specials you'll actually want to use and overshadow the kirbycide potential. :V

Getting hit after swallowing can mean losing the aqcuired ability, making a successful Copy detrimental. How the heck is that a good risk-reward?

Kirbycide really isn't that good anymore. Unlike Melee
1.) You don't die after your opponent. So no surviving Kirbycides.
2.) If they break out, they aren't below you. So you aren't in a position to inhibit their recovery. Heck, they may inhibit yours.
3.) Swallow has less range

@Matt

How the HELL would making Copy function like it should undo what the B-air nerfs are going to do?

 

[timothyung]

By stingers' logic, if a character will always be punished for any attacks he uses other than his overpowered dsmash, "Just use his dsmash. Don't use any thing else. Don't fix them."

I don't know why you wouldn't fix a move which the character will always be punished if used.

 

[Gravyguy101]

I can't even get to the last page in this thread at the rate it grows... you kids need to go in the irc and chat not just post and wait... or better yet stay on topic... the topic changed atleast 5 times in the last 3 pages

 

[RPGsFTW]

Oh! I almost completely forgot! Any news regarding edited stages in the upcoming Official? That and anything regarding DJCing?

I really want to see how a edited broken top platform SkyWorld would be, and a frozen, air PirateShip. =]

Real quick. I think Mario's D-air wouldn't suck, though some might disagree, if it was a meteor like in Smash 64. Whether it be a weak meteor or not, just having a meteor at the end of the move might be really cool. And on-stage, on a grounded opponent, it can just launch them up. That'd be cool. =]

 

[colored blind]

all these arguments against Kirby (KIRBY) being able to safely copy (COPY) an opponent's move don't take into account exactly how character-defining this Neutral B move is.

While B+'s goal is to make a competitive smash game more than anything, you can't deny what this is at its core: a Smash Game. This is a game revolving around a bunch of nintendo characters.

Kirby's most defining characteristic of all is his ability to copy. The fact that this ability is 100% punishable is absurd not just because the move is marginally useful (in most cases) but in the fact that it discourages the kirby user to make use of his character's Most Canon Ability. What the hell.

Lol. You've just made the best argument for Copy that doesn't sound like complete and utter whining about a bad move.

Imma let you finish, but Jigglypuff had one of the worst moves of all time. Of all time.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Yes, because Luigi should have spaghetti in his moves, right? /attempted humor


But I will not be happy with the whole "canon" argument until Jigglypuff has a marker >:O


and kirby's copy+swallow does yield rewards, if you spit them out.


:V


I am being sarcastic, if no one can tell.

 

[TLMSheikant]

Kirby should have his copy fixed. It doesnt matter how good he is. He has gotten several nerfs already and he is definetely not OP. I only find it fair that landed moves yield some sort of reward, not the other way around.

 

[MK26]

I'm wondering how many kirbies here realize how huge a nerf a change to his bair range is...it's not just that it has been changed for the worse, but it'll require completely relearning the move, or even the character.Instead of a range change, I personally would accept having a huge amount of endlag tacked on, getting completely rid of its iasa, and bringing it back to 100% landing lag...because even then, i would stil be able to space it to be unshieldgrabbable, and there would be ways to get around the lag increase (ex more conservative, smarter usage rather than spamming). Nerfing the range, on the other hand, will force kirby players to relearn spacing in the air in general (i for one always do my best to hover around bair range), and it doesnt even address his ability to chain two or 3 in a row into an offstage hit.

It's changing so much that shouldnt be changed, yet still managing to miss the point. All it needs is more endlag. (Not to mention the fact that it isnt an OP move in itself, its just a staple move in his arsenal, but thats another debate altogether)

 

[metaXzero]

Yes, because Luigi should have spaghetti in his moves, right? /attempted humor


But I will not be happy with the whole "canon" argument until Jigglypuff has a marker >:O


and kirby's copy+swallow does yield rewards, if you spit them out.


:V

Is this a serious post? Really? Comparing this fix to adding a new move?

...

EDIT: For me, as long as the B-air hitbox cover his feet, I don't mind.