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[JCaesar]

****it JCZ... You're in my head this time. I was going to use that exact comparison. :[

Wth does poker have to do with competitive Smash?

People were complaining about the luck-based factors in Smash. Some were saying that luck has no place in a competitive game. Poker was just an example of why this is simply not true.

 

[stingers]

Ideally, Luck shouldn't be a factor in competitive games. It's the reason we turn off items and stages like Warioware (in vBrawl).

Just because some games are competitive with Luck as a factor doesn't mean it's something we should look up to.

 

[Christopher Rodriguez]

if you guys tinker with random attack elements im just going to quit brawl + :/ that's honestly the dumbest thing i've ever heard of, it just seems like you guys are running out of ideas. they hardly affect games as is.. more people praise a bomb-omb pull then cry about it because its just amazing.. taking that out = less variety

Wth does poker have to do with competitive Smash?

its just a comparison

I dont see anything wrong with that at all, he was using it as a reference to how it require luck and mindgames

 

[JCaesar]

Ideally, Luck shouldn't be a factor in competitive games. It's the reason we turn off items and stages like Warioware (in vBrawl).

Just because some games are competitive with Luck as a factor doesn't mean it's something we should look up to.

I'm not saying we should turn Brawl+ into dice-rolling. I just don't see a problem with what's currently in the game.

Take Luigi's misfire as an example. It has a 1/8 chance. You can (and should imo) anticipate the misfire every time he side-Bs and edgeguard accordingly. If you get blasted by it, it is no one's fault but your own. You knew that it was a possibility.

 

[weinzey]

Play poker much? Poker is 100% luck and the mindgames that result from that luck, with a smattering of math knowledge which you can use to take advantage of that luck. And I don't think anyone would argue that Poker isn't competitive.

thats not really it. of course poker is a game of luck, but at its core its about avoiding being in need of luck by playing smart, cautious, foreseeing and most importantly being in ur opponents head. counting all that in, luck is not nearly as dominant as u make it out to be (also depends on the level u play it ofc).

on topic: are u guys planning on changing wario in any way? dont get me wrong, he's still good (not near top10 though imo), but he really lost a lot in the transition to brawl+ (mainly his amazing airdodge and relative aircontrol due to others doing the also controling it with hitstun (which is safer ofc)) and now his cg got removed (which ofc had to be done). maybe he could get something (small) in return, like less winddown on dtilt?


Edit:

Take Luigi's misfire as an example. It has a 1/8 chance. You can (and should imo) anticipate the misfire every time he side-Bs and edgeguard accordingly. If you get blasted by it, it is no one's fault but your own. You knew that it was a possibility.

the problem with luigi's misfire is that the one who plays luigi wont intend the misfire and thus miss the sweetspot...

 

[Lil'E]

Pkt is always going to be terrible (offline) due to the speed at which it travels. People ff too quickly now for it to be effective, it would need a knockback boost, the tail would need to do something because people can just eat the damage and then punish Ness right now. It's not a great move and can be used in certain situations. Even with the buffs, the move is useless in 7 matchups (not counting people who ff like crazy away from the move).

Then why make a terrible move into a less terrible move just to make it terrible again.

I couldn't word that how I wanted.

Terrible move -> Less Terrible Move -> Terrible Move Again

If a change given to a character doesn't help a character too much or hinder a character too much... why remove said change?

 

[Shell]

This is why we dropped our discussion of random moves last time.

 

[FrozenHobo]

Then why make a terrible move into a less terrible move just to make it terrible again.

I couldn't word that how I wanted.

Terrible move -> Less Terrible Move -> Terrible Move Again

If a change given to a character doesn't help a character too much or hinder a character too much... why remove said change?

are you talking about the infinite PKT1s?

 

[Cero]

Yeah, I got that it was a comparison. It's just that you can't really compare Smash to a card game.
I just want to throw out some questions to help everyone come to a conclusion:

Why are random factors in (almost) any game considered to be deterrents to competition?
(i.e. Why are there no competitive Mario Party tournaments?)

Why was tripping removed?

If all random elements in the game were removed, would it be a bad thing? How?

 

[PKNintendo]

Guys can we just leave Ness the way he is?

More complaining might bring more nerfs. imo he`s fine the way he is.

 

[Lil'E]

are you talking about the infinite PKT1s?

I wasn't... but I guess it can be included. I meant it for any change that has/may be given to a character but taken away because "it didn't help much".

 

[FrozenHobo]

Yeah, I got that it was a comparison. It's just that you can't really compare Smash to a card game.
I just want to throw out some questions to help everyone come to a conclusion:

Why are random factors in (almost) any game considered to be deterrents to competition?
(i.e. Why are there no competitive Mario Party tournaments?)

Why was tripping removed?

If all random elements in the game were removed, would it be a bad thing? How?

so, you want all of G&W's hammers to be 9s, D3 always to throw gordos, Peach to always pull stitch faces, olimar to always get a specific color... i could go on, but it just sounds so crappy i don't think its worth my time....

I wasn't... but I guess it can be included. I meant it for any change that has/may be given to a character but taken away because "it didn't help much".

not at you, but at ness mains in general, my main problem with infinite PKT1 is this: HOW THE **** DID YOU GUYS OPERATE IN vBRAWL WITHOUT INFINITE PKT1S!? i mean, if you complain that his recovery gets gimped to hell without it then you must have played one ****ty ness in regular brawl...

 

[weinzey]

on topic: are u guys planning on changing wario in any way? dont get me wrong, he's still good (not near top10 though imo), but he really lost a lot in the transition to brawl+ (mainly his amazing airdodge and relative aircontrol due to others doing the also controling it with hitstun (which is safer ofc)) and now his cg got removed (which ofc had to be done). maybe he could get something (small) in return, like less winddown on dtilt?

quoting myself for emphasis (now it seems that there are more than 3 people maining wario+ )

not at you, but at ness mains in general, my main problem with infinite PKT1 is this: HOW THE **** DID YOU GUYS OPERATE IN vBRAWL WITHOUT INFINITE PKT1S!? i mean, if you complain that his recovery gets gimped to hell without it then you must have played one crappy ness in regular brawl...

i bet they didnt play a crappy ness. they didnt play ness at all in vbrawl and he was crappy all by himself

 

[shanus]

Hey guys, lets not talk about random moves. We already know how polar people feel on it. Lets go back to talking about like stages or something.

 

[FrozenHobo]

hows the codes for skyworld coming (top parts broken, bottom part indestructible/un-hittable)?

edit: do we have an up to date neutral/cp list yet?

 

[Dan_X]

Team Fortress 2 (the best FPS imo) matches can be determined by luck. While certainly not to the degree of Pokemon, I have been in clan matches where a simple stream of luck won or lost the round. You can watch a Heavy lose his Medic to another Heavy/Medic team and pull out a string of crits to mow the other team down when he clearly should have died right there. You can watch a Soldier wreak absolute havoc on the other team because of one lucky crit rocket. That one instant of luck could have just allowed his team to push through the enemies defense to their last capture point or intelligence. I've seen it happen in the hundreds of hours I've poured into the game.

Sorry, I just had to chime in here because TF2 is my fav FPS of all time! I too have logged hundreds of hours playing this stunning game! What classes do you play?

What's your steam-ID? Mine = delkin525

Back to Smash talk, what's the general consensus of Kirby in Brawl+? I've picked him up as a tertiary and I like him quite a bit. I'm not particularly amazing or anything, but I must admit that I love walling with this Bair. He has a fun air game! ;D

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

CURRENT VBRAWL LIST:

Starter

Yoshi's Island [Brawl]
Battlefield
Smashville
Final Destination


Starter/Counter

Lylat Cruise
Halberd
Pokémon Stadium 1
Castle Siege


Counter

Delfino Plaza
Brinstar
Frigate Orpheon
Rainbow Cruise
Jungle Japes
Pirate Ship
PictoChat
Pokémon Stadium 2


Counter/Banned

Norfair
Luigi's Mansion
Distant Planet
Green Greens
Yoshi's Island [Melee]
Port Town Aero Dive


Banned

Hanenbow
Mario Circuit
Onett
Corneria
Big Blue
75m
Green Hill Zone
New Pork City
Rumble Falls
Shadow Moses Island
Summit
Mario Bros.
Flat Zone 2
Bridge of Eldin
WarioWare Inc.
Spear Pillar
Skyworld
Temple
Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1
Mushroomy Kingdom 1-2

what needs to be changed?

 

[Yingyay]

CURRENT VBRAWL LIST:

Starter

Yoshi's Island [Brawl]
Battlefield
Smashville
Final Destination


Starter/Counter

Lylat Cruise
Halberd
Pokémon Stadium 1
Castle Siege


Counter

Delfino Plaza
Brinstar
Frigate Orpheon
Rainbow Cruise
Jungle Japes
Pirate Ship
PictoChat
Pokémon Stadium 2


Counter/Banned

Norfair
Luigi's Mansion
Distant Planet
Green Greens
Yoshi's Island [Melee]
Port Town Aero Dive


Banned

Hanenbow
Mario Circuit
Onett
Corneria
Big Blue
75m
Green Hill Zone
New Pork City
Rumble Falls
Shadow Moses Island
Summit
Mario Bros.
Flat Zone 2
Bridge of Eldin
WarioWare Inc.
Spear Pillar
Skyworld
Temple
Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1
Mushroomy Kingdom 1-2

what needs to be changed?

Warioware. Thats it.

 

[shanus]

pokemon stadium 2 replaces pokemon stadium 1 as a starter. PKST1 becomes a CP then IMO

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

I think it should be somthing like this

Starter
Yoshi's Island [Brawl]
Battlefield
Smashville
Final Destination
Lylat Cruise
Halberd
Pokémon Stadium 1
Pokémon Stadium 2
Castle Siege
(Deadlands)

Counter

Delfino Plaza
Brinstar
Frigate Orpheon
Rainbow Cruise
Jungle Japes
Pirate Ship
PictoChat
Pokémon Stadium 2
Norfair <-------------might need to be frozen...frozen lava har har har
(Luigi's Mansion)
Distant Planet <--------------Freeze?
Green Greens
Corneria
Port Town Aero Dive <-------------------stop dui
WarioWare Inc.

Banned (what can be done to make some of these legal?)
Yoshi's Island [Melee]
Hanenbow
Mario Circuit
Onett
Big Blue
75m
Green Hill Zone
New Pork City
Rumble Falls
Shadow Moses Island
Summit
Mario Bros.
Flat Zone 2
Bridge of Eldin
Spear Pillar
Skyworld
Temple
Mushroomy Kingdom 1-1
Mushroomy Kingdom 1-2

 

[Cero]

so, you want all of G&W's hammers to be 9s, D3 always to throw gordos, Peach to always pull stitch faces, olimar to always get a specific color... i could go on, but it just sounds so crappy i don't think its worth my time....

There are other ways to take out those random elements.

For G&W, his hammer could go in cycles. The numbers will go in order, from 1 to 9.
(I can't remember right now. I think #1 is the one that has no knockback and actually hurts G&W. I'll be assuming that I'm correct for my example.)
Every time G&W successfully lands a hit with the hammer, the number in the next que goes up. So, let's say G&W's hammer's set at #2. It will be set at that number until he hits his opponent with it. Once, he hit's his opponent with #2, the next hammer will be a 3 and so on. However, every time he uses the hammer and misses, he'll get a #1 and end up hurting himself.

For D3, the electric ones (I forgot the name) will be thrown every 5th toss and Gordos will be tossed every 20th toss.
So, it would go in this order:
1. normal, 2. normal, 3. normal, 4. normal, 5. electric, 6. normal, 7. normal, 8. normal, 9. normal, 10. electric, 11. normal, 12. normal, 13. normal, 14. normal, 15. electric, 16. normal, 17. normal, 18. normal, 19. normal, 20. gordo

For Peach, we can make it a reward system. If she can inflict 50% (or maybe a higher percent, just an example) on her opponent without getting hurt herself, the next turnip she pulls out will be a stitch face. She could pull out a bomb when she breaks her opponent's shield. If she's killed at 10%, the next pull she'll get is a Mr. Saturn after respawn. And, idk about the beam sword. I'm just throwing out ideas.

For Olimar, it can go in a cycle. Or, we could go with what someone else in this thread suggested a few pages ago. That is, making it so each color corresponds to a second on the game timer (or something like that; I can't remember).

EDIT: Lol. Everyone already moved on to legal stage discussion. Oh, well.

 

[PKNintendo]

What about Spear pillar?

 

[Alphatron]

Agreed with clinton on the effects, save for ice Bowser dsmash. Electric Weegee fsmash would be awesome.

 

[FrozenHobo]

with regards to stages, they already started here: http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?id=86223

 

[Shell]

I forget who it was that was wondering, but Lucas's D-throw used to kill Mario w/ DI @ center of FD (we need an acronym for that standard) at 151% in vBrawl, and the old U-throw killed at 162% in vBrawl.

U-throw now kills at 148%, so you are correct that this is, in many ways, more of a return to form than a huge game changer. If you feel it should be lower, state your case.

I played a few matches against SMK yesterday and the d-throw seemed pretty solid.

 

[Alphatron]

Current Spear Pillar sucks. The bottom half ruins it about as much as the pokemon do. And if the stage can't be saved with the top half broken, then you may as well put the pokemon back.

FD should be CP.

 

[shanus]

Current Spear Pillar sucks. The bottom half ruins it about as much as the pokemon do. And if the stage can't be saved with the top half broken, then you may as well put the pokemon back.

FD should be CP.

Paprika knows how to modify the stage pieces on it now. In the future it will be fixed.

 

[FrozenHobo]

so, according to this list, what should be CP and what should be banned?

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

...to kill Mario w/ DI @ center of FD (we need an acronym for that standard)...
...
...against SMK yesterday..

Standard Mario Kill -> SMK there ya go

In the future it will be fixed.

why not fix it now?

 

[weinzey]

I forget who it was that was wondering, but Lucas's D-throw used to kill Mario w/ DI @ center of FD (we need an acronym for that standard) at 151% in vBrawl, and the old U-throw killed at 162% in vBrawl.

U-throw now kills at 148%, so you are correct that this is, in many ways, more of a return to form than a huge game changer. If you feel it should be lower, state your case.

I played a few matches against SMK yesterday and the d-throw seemed pretty solid.

at what percentage does rob's new upthrow kill (just for comparison)? if u dont know it off the top of ur head, nvm.

@stages: is ghneko's proposal for mushroomy kingdom 1-2 (i think; its the dark one) being considered/worked on?

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

so, according to this list, what should be CP and what should be banned?

Banned untill:
Norfair: Freeze
Onett: no cars maybe?
Spear Pillar: destroy top layer (some)
Pirate ship: Deadlands -> DeadSea: no events also maybe make the water like hanenbow
Port Aero: no cars...or freeze at a stop
Green Hill Zone: idk
Big Blue: must be slowed down more to be legal at all

IMO

 

[jokey665]

I forget who it was that was wondering, but Lucas's D-throw used to kill Mario w/ DI @ center of FD (we need an acronym for that standard) at 151% in vBrawl, and the old U-throw killed at 162% in vBrawl.

U-throw now kills at 148%, so you are correct that this is, in many ways, more of a return to form than a huge game changer. If you feel it should be lower, state your case.

I played a few matches against SMK yesterday and the d-throw seemed pretty solid.

Woah, I didn't know you were in Ohio, too >.>

 

[CloneHat]

Cars are what keep edge camping from happening on Onett.

 

[Shell]

I should organize a Cleveland+ smash fest one of these days. If I get anything organized I'll be sure to let you all know.

 

[FrozenHobo]

Banned untill:
Norfair: Freeze
Onett: no cars maybe?

k

Spear Pillar: destroy top layer (some)

destroying all of the top would give it a VERY high top boundary and a rather low bottom boundary.

Pirate ship: Deadlands -> DeadSea: no events also maybe make the water like hanenbow

they have code for this (no water) so maybe that with a freeze code could work.

Port Aero: no cars...or freeze at a stop

if they can't make the cars stop killing so easily then maybe freezing the stage (though that gives us another FD again...)

Green Hill Zone: idk

they've talked about making the checkpoints have no hitboxes and have the bottom be un-hittable.

Big Blue: must be slowed down more to be legal at all

as much as i love Big Blue, i don't think you can slow it down enough to make it legal.

 

[MK26]

I hate to break it to you, but there are games just as competitive, if not more competitive that have luck intertwined throughout the game.

(large quote)

You have a point. We should be glad that some attacks don't randomly do 1.5x the damage and knockback of normal. That would be absolute chaos.

Standard Mario Kill -> SMK there ya go

win.

Also, the stage list = first 7 stages on the SSS are neutral, rest of the first page is cp, and the 2nd page is banned. At least, for now. At leats, I'm assuming that's how it is, seeing as how that was the intent of my SSS and the Plussery guys didnt ask me to change it...

 

[shanus]

Standard Mario Kill -> SMK there ya go



why not fix it now?

uh, understanding what piece of data destroys the pieces doesn't mean we have a code which does it. And the coder who knows how to do it is also on vacation right now.

 

[thesage]

I have a question on the custom stage select screen. My random is messed up and sometimes it picks 75m even though I don't have it on random and I don't know how to get to the wifi waiting room (sends me to the control test stage).

 

[ephtaup]

umm...

why is it possible to tech ganon's side b again?

 

[weinzey]

are u guys planning on changing wario in any way? dont get me wrong, he's still good (not near top10 though imo), but he really lost a lot in the transition to brawl+ (mainly his amazing airdodge and relative aircontrol due to others doing the also controling it with hitstun (which is safer ofc)) and now his cg got removed (which ofc had to be done). maybe he could get something (small) in return, like less winddown on dtilt?

dont ignore wario. that makes him angry and u wont like him when he's angry.