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Brawl+ - Official 5.0 RC1 Build is now online! (Re-Use Autoupdater, Snake bug fixed)

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GameSystem

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Sonic can also turn midway, jump, and do aerials out of the jump. Even if he used the down or side specials, he can still avoid punishment in some ways. Ike has none of that and should stay that way. Sonic is a character build on mindgames because he lacked the ko power. He needed all those little tricks to help him. Ike can ko with literally his entire moveset. It would just be unfair to give Ike the ability to cancel. If he gets it everyone should get smash charge canceling which is something nobody should have.
 
D

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a) It's not like Ike is broken or nearly top 10 to begin with

b) It's not like giving him a fakeout will overpower him

c) It's not like changes to nightly builds are set in stone
 
Alphatron

Alphatron

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Scenario:

Ike begins charging QD but cannot cancel it. X character shoots a projectile at him.

Ike begins to charge Quick Draw, and X character shoots a projectile. Ike cancels it and shields said projectile.

Also, if it can be charge cancelled in the air then it makes Quick Draw a useable recovery tactic. An opponent can't gaurentee his death when they see him charging by jumping in front of him.

QD isn't exactly a stellar attack power wise either, so cancelling it wouldn't be comparable to cancelling attacks that can actually KO your opponent.

Not saying you guys should throw this in, but still.
 
Nybb

Nybb

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GuruKid said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe coders can currently tweak specific hazards and other nuances that currently force stages to be banned. Once a method is created, however, I'm sure a proper discussion on stage legality will be rightly called for (and swarmed with activity).
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GHNeko said:
Thats exactly why we have yet to fix Port town. D:

And settle on an official stage list. .__.

The lack of an official stage list is ****** tourneys.
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Yes, I am aware that stage hazards can't really be edited yet and that once they can be a lot of stage legality issues will change. It's just a bit annoying to not have any semblance of a list at all right now. I think even a changing list is better than no list at all.

Alphatron said:
Scenario:

Ike begins charging QD but cannot cancel it. X character shoots a projectile at him.

Ike begins to charge Quick Draw, and X character shoots a projectile. Ike cancels it and shields said projectile.

Also, if it can be charge cancelled in the air then it makes Quick Draw a useable recovery tactic. An opponent can't gaurentee his death when they see him charging by jumping in front of him.

QD isn't exactly a stellar attack power wise either, so cancelling it wouldn't be comparable to cancelling attacks that can actually KO your opponent.

Not saying you guys should throw this in, but still.
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wut? Ike already has been changed to not go into freefall after hitting somebody with an aerial side-b. If somebody jumps in front of you, you just laugh as they get hit by the move and you just continue to recover safely now that they have been knocked away.

I would be in favour of at least trying out the charge-cancel, but I don't really think he needs it. I don't see it really adding to his game that much. I play Ike quite a lot and I can't really imagine many situations where it would be very helpful. I just don't sit around charging quick draw. Doing it uncharged usually covers enough distance to get the job done, and if you do charge it for some reason and somebody tries to go around you and punish you, it often has small enough lag that you can just let it go and get away fine.

The only time I could see it being helpful might be when recovering to just try to be unpredictable. This I think makes the change at least worth trying, although I am still sceptical; I don't know if it would make enough of a difference in the end to make it worth implementing.
 
Blank Mauser

Blank Mauser

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Changes for pure mindgames on moves that by general logic shouldn't be carelessly thrown in the first place are off-putting to practical play while at the same time not really helping or doing much for the metagame. Someone may be caught off-guard once at most expecting to punish Ike and then getting hurt in the process, but then after that its of no real concern and they just got punished because they didn't keep up with Brawl+ and didn't expect such an odd, unnecessary change. (This already happens with other changes, but their uses are a lot more practical)

Especially an obvious gimmick like quickdraw would most likely only serve its purpose once on-stage if at all. Ike can easily mix-up his recovery by saving his double jump, a feint adds no change to the opponents expectations once he/she actually keeps the cancel in mind.

The difference with Sonic is that his Side-B can only be shield canceled on the ground, while charging a side-B in the air can give him a spin jump. Really the grounded cancel is going to be mainly for flash against anyone who knows the matchup anyways. I feel his mindgames are only overestimated because hes an underplayed character, and this will most likely put Ike in the same category.
 
XSilvenX

XSilvenX

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Ike doesn't "NEED" this, although it would be nice to have it's still a little superfluous imo. It wouldn't change Ike's tier also. Ike is fine the way he is, he's actually one of those character that I think is perfectly balanced.

Excels in range and strength while lacking in speed and recovery.

He's fine, no need to waste any more time on him. Oh and btw if you QD in front of someone with a projectile (while they aren't down, about to wakeup, in the lag of a move etc, you get the picture) you're officially an Ike noob and/or an idiot so ummm Alphatron no offense but little scenario isn't gonna come to fruition in a serious match with any respectable Ike player
 
Blank Mauser

Blank Mauser

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A serious application I would imagine is being able to turn-around in mid-air to use Bair. In which case, this has its own weight to consider with cancel speed, character diversity, whether it would leave his DJ in tact, and aerial strength. His Bair needs a fair amount of commitment now for the strong move it is, canceling mid-air side-B would change that.

Ike doesn't really have a complimenting outfit for this change simply because his side-B is a charge move. There are other factors to consider.
 
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RyuReiatsu

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Blank Mauser said:
A serious application I would imagine is being able to turn-around in mid-air to use Bair. In which case, this has its own weight to consider with cancel speed, character diversity, whether it would leave his DJ in tact, and aerial strength. His Bair needs a fair amount of commitment now for the strong move it is, canceling mid-air side-B would change that.

Ike doesn't really have a complimenting outfit for this change simply because his side-B is a charge move. There are other factors to consider.
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It's the same as Smash charge canceling. It's ridiculous.
Making a punishable move unpunishable? I fail to see the logic.
 
T

timothyung

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I would rather have Ike not swing his sword automatically. He only swings it when we press B during the dash. Then we can even remove the "no freefall after swinging the sword", and make it useful in team battles if it is used correctly.
 
Revven

Revven

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I'd rather we don't touch Ike at all anymore because his Side B was already buffed enough and the Ike mains aren't complaining about how he is because he is very viable and is overall much better than someone like Bowser (who is probably actually better now too due to his throw buffs).
 
FrozenHobo

FrozenHobo

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Phillyrider807 said:
Thats what i thought. I know thats how it works in vbrawl. I grabbed ness once he started dong pk flash and while he was in my grab i still got hit by it. The attack didn't go away once i grabbed him.
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anyone else see this as maybe something to check? seems like a bad thing....
 
Alphatron

Alphatron

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FrozenPopo said:
anyone else see this as maybe something to check? seems like a bad thing....
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In vbrawl there was a window in which Ness could still activate PK Flash after being grabbed. I've done it twice, once in the air saving me from a bowsercide.
 
V

VietGeek

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FrozenPopo said:
well if he can still activate it when he gets hit, then whats the point of hitting him to cancel it in the first place?
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I'd agree with this if it weren't for the part that the move is laggy as **** anyway.

No need to change it.

I've suffered the wrath of PK Flash from trying to Micheal Jackson him in vB. But it's still not something that needs to be changed considering how the move itself is probably only a placement higher than Melee Kirby. =V
 
SymphonicSage12

SymphonicSage12

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Ummm Falco400, since WHEN was Bowser bad in Brawl+? He's got several nice buffs. Really the only reason that he isn't high tier is because he's a ****ing fat***. but let's see the good points...

1.Ninth best aerial mobility

2.OoS Fortress is invincibile on frame 1.

3.Claw Hopping. 'nuff said.

4.ftilt is strong and decent speed.

5.uptilt is quite fast and kills surprisingly early (around 120-130ish)

6.Up Smash buff in size...now makes it an even better killer when the opponent is above you

7.Fsmash..kills ridiculously early, and does ridiculous amounts of damage (ALTHOUGH IT IS REALLY SLOW TOO)

8.Fair is outranges Marth's and is also stronger

9.Bair has a nice, low launch angle, and the lag isn't too bad thanks to ALR.

Just to be fair, let's reiterate the cons:

1.Smashes are fairly slow on startup

2.uair is an excellent killer, but comes out slowly

3.dair just kinda sucks in general

4.Down Smash is pretty situational, only usable when punishing roll-spammers

5.down b...eh...You to be very good at predicting (a.k.a lucky) in order to actually hit with this move

6.Fire, at first, appears good at edgeguarding, but opponents can be trapped in it and DI TOWARDS THE STAGE AND THE FIRE CARRIES THEM. Thus making edgeguarding with it useless. >.>

7.Did I mention his big fat*** size making him a huge target?

8.Mediocre grouded mobility (unless you OoS Fortress)

9.OoS Fortess has some ending lag in where you can punish Bowser



so..... Yeah, there you have my opinion. ^_^
 
thesage

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FrozenPopo said:
well if he can still activate it when he gets hit, then whats the point of hitting him to cancel it in the first place?
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Once he lets go of the b button, pk flash can be activated. If he gets hit before he releases b, then the move is canceled. There are tons of options to counter a pk flash if you are on the stage besides hitting Ness. You can throw a projectile or just run away (It's not like pk flash moves very quickly lol). Ness pk flash is meant as an edgeguarding move anyways lol. Now it's just as useful as it was in melee, but a little easier to use since it's quicker. I think Brawl+ Ness should be at least be able to do the things melee Ness did lol.
 
D

Deleted member

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GameSystem said:
They are ultra conservative. They don't like adding in new things. Believe me I tried.
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Well, so are you to be so dismissive. :/

GHNeko said:
Give legit reason as to WHY we should test it though. D:
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Because I think it would present Ike mains with a means of switch-ups. Ike is incredibly easy to read. You see his attacks coming a mile away. Sure he doesn't need a QD cancel, but giving him one might just liberate him.

@ Blank Mauser:

I don't know why you're so quick to dismiss a QD Cancel as gimmicky. Brawl+ has several mechanics that are inherently stale - that is, certain things draw the game out. I've watched matches where Ike is charging a QD and the opponent is waiting on the platform for it to happen. You can hold the thing indefinitely. I can't believe you think a QD Cancel would work only once as a mind game. If you charge the thing, the opponent has to do something other than jump or shield, which escapes QD easily.


On a side note:

If anyone here is near the Toronto area (that includes you, Buffalo!) try to show interest in this: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=241510

Brawl+ only tournament. I want it to happen.

And check out the last page! People admitting to Kirby's brokenness!

Never mind, I'll just link them here!

Runawayfire said:
Yeah, the only real strategy against him is to just have amazing zoning and stay outside of his zones, but even then he is good enough to work around people working around him. Kinda like Fox in melee, except he was good at long range but was easily combo'ed and edgegaurded.

Its almost impossible to edgegaurd kirby, and his small size and relative floatiness makes him not the easiest to combo. Meanwhile, if you are within kirby's inner zones he will combo the hell out of you, (I've done upwards of 65% from zero...) and bair is an excellent all purpose spacing tool.

Did I mention his edgegaurding is superb? Between bair and dair you don't need anything else. Hell, if you get the opponent off the ledge at lower percents and they use survival di bair even combos into dair!
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KingAce said:
LOLL kirby is BROKEN... i rememebr playing kirby after at ambroses with holy and brose
beat every single one of their characters except holys rob

bairs too broken
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Y

Yingyay

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 4, 2008
Messages
693
Anyway to fix the frame thingy?
Mario freezes when he tries to walk sometimes and after he runs. Its pretty.....not good.
It happens to wolf too

DeLoRtEd1 said:
Because I think it would present Ike mains with a means of switch-ups. Ike is incredibly easy to read. You see his attacks coming a mile away. Sure he doesn't need a QD cancel, but giving him one might just liberate him.

@ Blank Mauser:

I don't know why you're so quick to dismiss a QD Cancel as gimmicky. Brawl+ has several mechanics that are inherently stale - that is, certain things draw the game out. I've watched matches where Ike is charging a QD and the opponent is waiting on the platform for it to happen. You can hold the thing indefinitely. I can't believe you think a QD Cancel would work only once as a mind game. If you charge the thing, the opponent has to do something other than jump or shield, which escapes QD easily.
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So if you hold QD and ur opponent is waiting for it, then you cancel it. What are you gonna do then? You're only options is still QD and Aether.
 
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