Brawl+ Ness (SEVENTEEN ****ETY THREE)

[Mattnumbers]

WHY ARE YOU IDIOTS BUFFING FAIR

BUFFING IT

YOU'RE MAKING IT BETTER

HOLY SHIT caps for emphasis

Actually right now it's 10% larger and in this build it would be 5% larger so it's not a straight up buff.

 

[thesage]

Actually right now it's 10% larger and in this build it would be 5% larger so it's not a straight up buff.

Leave it at 10%.

I thought you guys were increasing it by 5% more on top of the range buff before lol.

 

[stingers]

and don't change anything else

 

[PKNintendo]

WHY ARE YOU IDIOTS BUFFING FAIR

BUFFING IT

YOU'RE MAKING IT BETTER

HOLY SHIT caps for emphasis

Dude... I totally see what where you going with this. The buff is unnecessary. We see that, but Kaiser just wanted to test it.



It wasn't even our top priority.

 

[Alphatron]

You know what? I don't think we should fool ourselves anymore. Ness is quite frankly a bad character. No amount of tweaks will make him good, much like how no amount of nerfs will make MetaKnight bad.

I propose we throw out the old Ness and use a completely new moveset. Raijinmaru of kittycorp has made a pac. file for Ness. It can be found here.

http://kittycorp.freecp.net/index.php?topic=1225.0

I strongly believe that using this will at the most keep Ness from being the absolute worst character in the game. It doesn't break him while being completely true to his original Earthbound character. When used with the brawl+ gct., it actually makes Ness remotely viable. Instead of being a complete joke

Spoiler

post.

 

[Deleted member]

woowwww im on a different computer didn't see the spoilers.

DONT CHANGE FAIR

 

[Lil'E]

I'd love a pac with only the sparkle animations combined with the official pac. D:


But ****... if the wind affect of magnet had that Sparkle Ness side B push I'd actually support it lol.

Edit: Holy ****! If that push was Psi Magnets wind I'd never complain about Inf. PKT1 again. :D

 

[Uffe]

You know what? I don't think we should fool ourselves anymore. Ness is quite frankly a bad character. No amount of tweaks will make him good, much like how no amount of nerfs will make MetaKnight bad.

I propose we throw out the old Ness and use a completely new moveset. Raijinmaru of kittycorp has made a pac. file for Ness. It can be found here.

http://kittycorp.freecp.net/index.php?topic=1225.0

I strongly believe that using this will at the most keep Ness from being the absolute worst character in the game. It doesn't break him while being completely true to his original Earthbound character. When used with the brawl+ gct., it actually makes Ness remotely viable. Instead of being a complete joke

Spoiler

post.

I say we make him the Ness from 64. Then we'll see who's a bad character.

 

[CountKaiser]

Jesus ****ing christ

Okay, I'll stop tweaking fair, since everyone is fine with it, God.

Just offering an alternative fix to fair, that's all.

People who do nothing but *****, have you tried the new fair?

 

[PKNintendo]

Jesus ****ing christ

Okay, I'll stop tweaking fair, since everyone is fine with it, God.

Just offering an alternative fix to fair, that's all.

People who do nothing but *****, have you tried the new fair?

Apparently so. I liked it though. But I don't see it being that much better than the original, and you've seen how much Shanus is opposed to it.

Changes we want so far:

Changelist

PK Flash

25% faster startup
100% faster cooldown
2x bigger now instead of 1.5x bigger


Dsmash

Hitbox is 20% larger

Usmash

Whole move executes 20% faster

Yoyo charge hitbox

Sends at a 270 angle, 0 KBG, 50 BKB

Now combined with the 5.0 codeset

I strongly believe that using this will at the most keep Ness from being the absolute worst character in the game. It doesn't break him while being completely true to his original Earthbound character. When used with the brawl+ gct., it actually makes Ness remotely viable. Instead of being a complete joke post.

Good god that better be a joke post. What moveset is that son?
Edit: Saw the topic, definitely joke post.

 

[CountKaiser]

Well, shanus was opposed to it only because I was making it even larger than before. I figured making it smaller would stop people from going nuts.

But as stingers has proven, people don't read.

 

[PKNintendo]

Well, shanus was opposed to it only because I was making it even larger than before. I figured making it smaller would stop people from going nuts.

But as stingers has proven, people don't read.

Too true my friend.
Also add Bat 25% hitbox increase. It was originally there but removed...

 

[_clinton]

I would be all for a return of infinite pkt1, but i think the established idea right now is that ness is to have no buffs to his recovery....even tho i believe the need for character templates to be completely nonexistant, Ness is to fit into the template of being good offensively and bad at recovery

The stuff unlimited PKT1 did for Ness' recovery is rather lacking...it just protects it from stupid gimps like random moving platforms and random objects better...Ness' other larger issues were still around with his recovery overall when he had unlimited PKT1...taking away the stupid part of it like they did with Lucario's gimp issue isn't a big deal to me if we are going to talk about buffing recoveries...

Unlimited PKT1 does one thing that made me like it so much...it added to Ness' pressure game...it made it so someone couldn't run away as freely when Ness was on them...

It had so much more uses than just lol recovery...

Where were you when it was first removed? I almost wanted to go bat**** insane and thought of every feasible reason as to why the removal was... for lack of a better word "unjust". I still bring it up every now and then, but they seem dead-set on keeping it out. Kinda gave up since I was the only one complaining about the changes at the time. I'd rather it than spring time breeze magnet in all honesty though.

I've been *****ing about it for a while actually in the thread where people can (but in this case couldn't) complain about changes in the night set

The reason it was removed was because it wasn't fair to Ivy and Olimar. Plus Ness has some new recovery options to compensate.

I also went bat**** crazy.

He doesn't have "new" recovery options that I can see...

The PK Jump boost gives the same distance as the rising Fair boost right now...which is just a little bit more distance horizontally than his normal 2nd jump...

Before the advanced aerial PK Fire stuff in vBrawl had some use offensively and defensively...and rising Fair actually gave more distance than his 2nd jump as well...

He didn't gain squat if you are going to look at what he had range wise...speed wise I guess Ness is faster...but so is pretty much everyone else except for a few...who got other things anyway (except MK)

Magnet's boost to recovery feels the same as well...the small magnet pull you can do after the aerial PK Fire stuff isn't helping much compared to what Magnet what magnet already had (an actual good stalling move) it's an ok but very small add on...

Oh and comparing Ness' recovery to Olimar and Ivysaur? Please...no way was Ness around their level of recovery...he was more of a 3/5 IMO (it would have been 4/5 if it wasn't for the fact that even with proper use PKT could still have issues)

Olimar was 2/5 and Ivysaur was 1/5 IMO...

 

[CountKaiser]

If unlimited PKT1 added to Ness's pressure game, how does the endlag speedup help it?

Is it a viable substitute?

 

[PKNintendo]

The stuff unlimited PKT1 did for Ness' recovery is rather lacking...it just protects it from stupid gimps like random moving platforms and random objects better...Ness' other larger issues were still around with his recovery overall when he had unlimited PKT1...taking away the stupid part of it like they did with Lucario's gimp issue isn't a big deal to me if we are going to talk about buffing recoveries...

Unlimited PKT1 does one thing that made me like it so much...it added to Ness' pressure game...it made it so someone couldn't run away as freely when Ness was on them...

It had so much more uses than just lol recovery...



I've been *****ing about it for a while actually in the thread where people can (but in this case couldn't) complain about changes in the night set



He doesn't have "new" recovery options that I can see...

The PK Jump boost gives the same distance as the rising Fair boost right now...which is just a little bit more distance horizontally than his normal 2nd jump...

Before the advanced aerial PK Fire stuff in vBrawl had some use offensively and defensively...and rising Fair actually gave more distance than his 2nd jump as well...

He didn't gain squat if you are going to look at what he had range wise...speed wise I guess Ness is faster...but so is pretty much everyone else except for a few...who got other things anyway (except MK)

Magnet's boost to recovery feels the same as well...the small magnet pull you can do after the aerial PK Fire stuff isn't helping much compared to what Magnet what magnet already had (an actual good stalling move) it's an ok but very small add on...

Oh and comparing Ness' recovery to Olimar and Ivysaur? Please...no way was Ness around their level of recovery...he was more of a 3/5 IMO (it would have been 4/5 if it wasn't for the fact that even with proper use PKT could still have issues)

Olimar was 2/5 and Ivysaur was 1/5 IMO...

I feel for you about the pressure game, but it's been discussed to death and back. It's pressure game is still here. The lag on a grounded PKT is the same thing. Aerial PKT juggling is gone though.

 

[Deleted member]

people who think ness is fine != *****ing. tweaking ness to make him better when he already is sick = *****ing.

 

[_clinton]

If unlimited PKT1 added to Ness's pressure game, how does the endlag speedup help it?

Is it a viable substitute?

The endlag speedup that you guys gave it in return only helps PKT when you are on the ground...

When it was unlimited...you could also use it almost freely in the air...

Ness could use it freely there when he was smacking on someone normally and then hit them with PKT when they are trying to get away from him...and if he had his 2nd jump still...even more fun things could happen...like hitting them with an Uair at a high part of a stage

My point is...unlimited PKT1 made PKT good at its main use IMO...which is an add on to everything else Ness can do...

You keeping the end lag speed up only makes it the same at what it did in vBrawl IMO...putting back in UPKT1 adds to Ness' game in the same way that Extreme speed's buff added to Lucario's game and also makes Ness stand out even more when people compare Ness to Lucas...

Now I know the endlag speedup also helps PKT2 as well as PKT1 (less lag sure did make it safer in a number of brand new and fun situations for trying it out freely on people) but I'd rather have a full boost to PKT1 instead of an all around boost to PKT in general (plus proper use of PKT2 pretty much makes the end lag reductions not needed anyway overall)

I feel for you about the pressure game, but it's been discussed to death and back. It's pressure game is still here. The lag on a grounded PKT is the same thing. Aerial PKT juggling is gone though.

Which is my point...I didn't like losing the aerial pressuring game that it gave...remember I was for Ness losing it in order to try out those new buffs people were talking about...well I don't see those new buffs as being better than what he lost in the end...

The pressuring game is just the same as vBrawl's overall in the end for what we have now...only worse because Ness is slower at recovering after using it (looking at how Brawl+ is faster than vBrawl)

 

[shanus]

The endlag speedup that you guys gave it in return only helps PKT when you are on the ground...

When it was unlimited...you could also use it almost freely in the air...

Ness could use it freely there when he was smacking on someone normally and then hit them with PKT when they are trying to get away from him...and if he had his 2nd jump still...even more fun things could happen...like hitting them with an Uair at a high part of a stage

My point is...unlimited PKT1 made PKT good at its main use IMO...which is an add on to everything else Ness can do...

You keeping the end lag speed up only makes it the same at what it did in vBrawl IMO...putting back in UPKT1 adds to Ness' game in the same way that Extreme speed's buff added to Lucario's game and also makes Ness stand out even more when people compare Ness to Lucas...

Now I know the endlag speedup also helps PKT2 as well as PKT1 (less lag sure did make it safer in a number of brand new and fun situations for trying it out freely on people) but I'd rather have a full boost to PKT1 instead of an all around boost to PKT in general (plus proper use of PKT2 pretty much makes the end lag reductions not needed anyway overall)



Which is my point...I didn't like losing the aerial pressuring game that it gave...remember I was for Ness losing it in order to try out those new buffs people were talking about...well I don't see those new buffs as being better than what he lost in the end...

The pressuring game is just the same as vBrawl's overall in the end for what we have now...only worse because Ness is slower at recovering after using it (looking at how Brawl+ is faster than vBrawl)

If you think Ness is at a loss since then, you are crazy or doing something wrong.

I'm still slightly of the opinion that fair is too good right now. It self-combos, can easily link into uair, harder to SDI due to size increase and easy to space (like whoamg). I'm not talking about changing it, but the fact that you think ness is lacking is very very questionable.

 

[PKNintendo]

If you think Ness is at a loss since then, you are crazy or doing something wrong.

I'm still slightly of the opinion that fair is too good right now. It self-combos, can easily link into uair, harder to SDI due to size increase and easy to space (like whoamg). I'm not talking about changing it, but the fact that you think ness is lacking is very very questionable.

Indeed. Do you think the other changes will implemented by the next nightly?

@_Clinton, Ness can honestly live without PKT. And yeah, as a Ness main I have to admit that fair is one of the best aerials (if not the best fair) in Brawl+.

 

[Lil'E]

@_Clinton, Ness can honestly live without PKT. And yeah, as a Ness main I have to admit that fair is one of the best aerials (if not the best fair) in Brawl+.

He can also live without wind increase and sa. I try so hard to ignore magnet but fail. lmao

 

[SSBFalco]

So what's gonna happen with Ness? Is he gonna stay with the new PSI Magnet or get his infinite PKT1 back again? And are there any reasons for the decision? So far that's the only thing confusing me. Everything else seems to be going great, Ness's future is looking great!

 

[Lil'E]

Magnet is not leaving even if Inf. PKT1 was reinstated. Zap Jump would have to leave for PKT1 and LOL that will never happen.

Magnet with sparkle ness's aerial side b should be looked into. Same as wind but god almighty is it better.

 

[Deleted member]

i live for the day when ness mains can stop talking about changing the character and we can start talking about matchups.

 

[PKNintendo]

Alright DeLoRted1, since your so perfect YOU suggest the first matchup. Something easy please.

 

[Deleted member]

n**** get off my ***. im just saying im so sick of my community being the black sheep of brawl+ cause we can't man up and get our matchup discussion in gear(because we're STILL discussing "tweaks")

Let some **** develop and then we'll talk tweaks.

Let's discuss Kirby, aka, the best character in the game?

 

[PKNintendo]

Actually it's MK but okay. We are going to talk about Kirby...
I'm out. I don't play kirby's. You?

Okay fine.

Kirby has some really good grab combo's from what i've seen. His bair is made of win and he has a superb recovery. That means no magnet OR Pk flash. He's light, so that makes for easy KOing. He also gimps you easily.



That's all I got.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

Kirby has nothing on 7/10 Ness

 

[SSBFalco]

I'm just trying to understand why PSI Magnet is being left in and inf. PKT1 is getting the boot, even though I'm fine with whatever we get in the end. So far, Lil'E has said that PSI Magnet is definately staying, and PKT1 will not be returning unless Zap Jump gets the boot, which I'm sure none of us will want. And lol the Ness mains are not the only ones whining and requesting changes for their mains, just look at the Falco/GW/Peach mains.

As for Kirby, I really only have a little experience fighting him, but from what I gathered:

Kirby will definately try going for grabs whenever he gets the opportunity, so you should always expect him to grab when the option is available, and react accordingly.

I actually do use PK Flash against a recovering Kirby because most of the times I try to go after him off the stage, I end up being the one getting edgegaurded and on rare occasions Kirbycided. PK Flash isn't very effective, of course, as Kirby can just stall with his multiple jumps until it's finished. PKT is usually my best option, and even then, it's a little risky to use against Kirby since it will leave you open unless you use it from a far distance. If you get knocked off the stage, you're pretty much dead. On the upside, he's easy to kill with Uair or Bthrow.

 

[stingers]

Kirby has nothing on 7/10 Ness

STOP

FUCKING

CRYING caps for emphasis

 

[thesage]

I played Chu a couple of times, but I don't really know that much. He sandbags a lot in friendlies lol.

Don't get grabbed at low percents. Unlike vbrawl, Ness can be grab combo'd like every other character. Just space with fair to make sure you aren't grabbed. Stay away from a kirby that's on the ledge, since he very easily sets up from gimps there (as shown in delorted's vids lol). Just send a pkt in that direction instead to get him off the ledge (cancel the pkt as soon as you see him off the ledge).

Remember that Ness has a good grab game as well and can combo Kirby from d-throw. Remember to u-throw -> uair or d-throw- bair/uair if he's at high percents but no high enough to die from b-throw.

Kirby's up-b is pretty easy to **** with dair. Be careful when you edgeguard him since you could eat a hammer in the face.

Kirby edgeguards Ness very well, so the last place you want to be is off the ledge vs. him. Be very careful not to be hit by bair since that sets up for edgeguarding nicely. That's his main advantage in this matchup.

Fair combos Kirby ok, not as much as other characters though.

I'll post more later.

 

[_clinton]

If you think Ness is at a loss since then, you are crazy or doing something wrong.

I'm still slightly of the opinion that fair is too good right now. It self-combos, can easily link into uair, harder to SDI due to size increase and easy to space (like whoamg). I'm not talking about changing it, but the fact that you think ness is lacking is very very questionable.

I'm saying Ness loss something better than what he gained with the trade in for Unlimited PKT...It's not the only issue overall though...

I still think the Utilt buff was not needed (at least for what you did to it...you buffed it's speed which it didn't really need IMO and then nerfed the move to the point where you couldn't Pivot grab after it that well anymore) but that is another story...

Also I hope that general comment on Fair in there wasn't directed at me (I don't think it was...but I'm just making sure) because the only thing I've talked about regarding Fair ATM dealt with its so called zap jump

I'm just trying to understand why PSI Magnet is being left in and inf. PKT1 is getting the boot, even though I'm fine with whatever we get in the end. So far, Lil'E has said that PSI Magnet is definately staying, and PKT1 will not be returning unless Zap Jump gets the boot, which I'm sure none of us will want. And lol the Ness mains are not the only ones whining and requesting changes for their mains, just look at the Falco/GW/Peach mains.

I for one feel Ness could use the zap jump stuff still just fine with the range being returned to normal...just as long as the speed buff was keep in...

I wonder if there is anyway we could come to an agreement on this and get Unlimited PKT1 but still keep some form of a buffed PK Jump?

I personaly don't care about the Utilt speed up or PKT2 endlag buff that is around right now...

Oh and of course we aren't going to be focused on match ups yet...we still are debating over Ness' final outcome because he was given a large amount of changes...I'd rather talk about match ups regarding a final product instead of one in the works...

Kirby has nothing on 7/10 Ness

Kirby has nothing on canon Ness either ^_^

 

[CountKaiser]

Kirby vs. Ness.

Definitely in kirbs favor, but all is not lost. His bair of hilarity should keep you on guard, so be sure to space fair well here. Note that Kirby's air game matches Ness's, so you will be hardpressed to press an offensive.

Both ness and kirby have good grab combos, be aware of this. Kirby will try to get the grab whenever he can, which is why it's even more important to space effectively against Kirby, since none of his aerials are safe on block. PK fire and FF fair are good for setting up grabs.

Uair is effective here since Kirby is light, and generally killing Kirby shouldn't be a problem. Kirb's upB is also easy to deal with if he has to resort to it, but normally he won't.

Never contest a kirby off the edge. He has far too easy a time gimping ness as well as defending himself off the edge, as 5 jumps a dair and hammer are all very potent. PK Flash will be pretty useless due to Kirb's amount of aerial control.

Overall, I say the matchup is 60:40 or 65:35. Definitely not a hard counter, but a hard matchup nonetheless.

Now then, constructive feedback on my tweaks are appreciated. Saying they're awesome is not constructive, say why. If you think they don't work, say why. If you think they're useless and add nothing to ness's game, state why.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

7/10 ness has complete aerial superiority over kirby while on the stage making the match 50/50

 

[shanus]

7/10 ness has complete aerial superiority over kirby while on the stage making the match 50/50

thats because 7/10 ness fair was the size of FD. really, drop it already, you've been a broken record on the past 5 pages.

 

[PKNintendo]

thats because 7/10 ness fair was the size of FD. really, drop it already, you've been a broken record on the past 5 pages.

Hey Shanus, you said after work (on the weekend) you'd check out Kaiser's Ness sets (minus the fair)


Um I haven't got much on Kirby. Guess I'll ask the Kirby mains soon.

 

[shanus]

I'm not home yet PK, I will I will , and I promised to check out the whole pac, the fair could be excellent, i'll see


Regarding kirby, I think the matchup could be surprisingly equal, maybe only slightly in kirby's favor. Well spaced fair and retreating magnet can make it a nightmare for kirby to land anything on ness, and once you get that fair in, its almost a guaranteed uair with proper spacing. Ness can't combo kirby like he can a FF'er, but at the same time, Ness can easily play an excellent spacing game against kirby bair. Just uh, don't get hit off the stage.

 

[PKNintendo]

I just realized, there is no Kirby + thread.

-_-

Someone needs to make one so we can ask the kirby's for matchup talk.

 

[thesage]

Basically, the matchup is that both characters have to space very well. Ness kills with his power. Kirby can gimp with edgeguarding. Kirby can kill with his powerful moves and Ness can kill with his edgeguarding.

It's almost like a mirror matchup except Kirby is really easy to play lmao.

 

[Deleted member]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLTjf19MSk8

3 stock comeback! :D

 

[Lil'E]

B+ needs more shield breaks.


Why did you not go for tipper though?

Edit: 0:46 was ********. It doesn't even look right graphically. Hitbox should stay out longer or whatever.