Brawl+ Ness (SEVENTEEN ****ETY THREE)

[thesage]

Ness in Brawl+​

This thread will be about how Ness works in Brawl+. I'll have a mini-guide discussing tactics and such that will grow as I learn more/others add stuff. The codeset I'm using is the (currently) latest Nightly build. Expect this to be more of a starter guide. I'm not going to tell you how you should play Ness. This is just going to detail common strategies, how to act in certain matchups, and how to use his moves at a basic level. Feel free to contribute/add something if you want to (pm me or post it in the thread). I will give proper credit.

The Codes That Specifically Affect Ness

-Aerial Landing Lag Reduction set to 50%

~~Not that big of a deal since Ness already had really low aerial landing lag outside of dair, which can be autocanceled. Most characters have the aerial landing lag set to 50%, but there are some exceptions.

-Physics adjustments: SH 1.00, Full Hop 1.075, FF to 1.2, Momentum increased to 110%

~~His full hop was increased since it increased the height of his dj (for recovery and better zap jumping) and so that he can follow up better. His ff was increased since he's an aerial character so it make his air game go faster and let's him ff out of juggles. The increased aerial momentum let's him move faster in the air, which is where Ness will be the majority of the time.

-Second Jump frames 0 to 2, 2x; gives ness a zap jump ability for recovery

~~The zap jump is a useful tool for recovery and helps him combo better with fair and can be used as a spacing tool.

-Dash Attack:
--all hitbox size increased by 15%
--entire move speed increased(same as above)

~~The changes to dash attack were made so that the move links together better and it combos better.

-Down Air:Small speed increase

~~It now comes out in 16 frames rather than 20. This makes the move easier to land, making it a more viable combo move

-Downsmash
--windup hit, KBG to 0 from 100, BKB to 50 from 0, angle to 348 from 110
-swing hit, BKB to 60 from 80, angle to 25 from 55
-Downthrow BKB to 80 from 90
-Dtilt 3 dmg from 4dmg, angle changed to 5 from 0 to stop wall locks
-Forward Air:
--Size of all hitboxes increased by 10%
--Angle of all weak hits changed to 85
--Final hit bkb set to 65, KBG to 60, DMg to 4% from 3%
--KBG of weak hits set to 0
-Forward Smash:
--Tipper hitbox size increased by 25%, only hitbox to cause homerun bat sound
-PSI Magnet:
--PSI Magnet comes out on frame 7
--Psi Magnet start-up (frames 1-7) has refreshable superarmor (that is, can eat multihit attacks and scale with it akin to olimar whistle)
--Wind hitbox BKB to 70 from 0, angle 30 from special20, 110% size
-PK Flash:
--50% larger
-PK Fire:
--15% faster startup
--Significantly harder to SDI out on first hit, easier on later hits
-Utilt:
--Utilt is 150% faster cooldown
--KBG to 110 from 126, BKB to 55 from 42

Ness' Moves

Air Game

Ness aerials can fit under the roles of both combo and kill moves. They all (except dair and sorta uair) have really low startup lag and really low ending lag. They are pretty much the centerpoint of Ness' game in general (especially fair in some matchups). These aerials by themselves make a pretty good character.

Ness' aerials can also be used with his new zap jump to go great distances. It's a great way to recover, but it can also be used to continue combos (especially ones involing fair -> fair or fair -> dair). It also useful for spacing dair for meteor smashes. It can also be used to pressure shield (something Ness is generally pretty bad at doing) since he flies to far away to get punished. Just make sure you don't get juggled afterward though. Get used to the timing of the zap jump (it's pretty easy) and how to space it since it is pretty useful. I use x+a to do a zap jump aerial, but figure out the best one that works for you.

Ness' aerial mobility is pretty average for an aerial oriented character and his sh is a little high. This makes bair and uair a little hard to space against grounded characters that are short.

Dair

This is one of Ness' best moves. It has an insane amount of hitstun so it combos very well. It comes out kinda slowly, but if you ac it has no landing lag. One of the strongest meteor smashes in the game. Can be combo'd into with a fair. The sourspot is stronger than Ness' bair.

Uair

Combo's at low percents. Kills at higher. Not really that great of an option inbetween those percents though... It has enough shieldstun that uair -> jab/d-tilt works on shields, but d-tilt is really punishable by shielding... Only really problem it has is it's range and startup lag which make the move kinda awkward to hit with (similar to Melee Kirby's uair)

Fair

Fair is a really good move. Some Ness players only use fair (which is dumb) and forgot about most of Ness' other moves entirely. If you don't want to be as predictable as they are, don't do that lol. The move has really good range and combos into itself pretty nicely. If you shff one of the weak hits of fair it can lead into jab, grab, and sometimes f-tilt (these are character specific). It also is pretty good at edgeguarding and walling. Unlike Ness other aerials, you don't really get kills from this move. You can gimp with it nicely if your opponent incorrectly dis the move and you land a rising dair on them.

Nair

Nair is a really fast gtfo move. It's really speedy and sets up nicely for edgeguards. I've noticed that when I hit grounded opponents with this move, they are easier to combo than when I hit an aerial opponent (sorta like the opposite of fair). It can also edgeguard fairly nicely and kill at higher percents (around 130). Nair is really good at spacing for Ness since it shakes people off of him and can be used as a combo breaker sometimes.

Bair

Again like his other moves, Bair is both a kill and combo move, but this move is definitely shifted more towards kill. Basically if your opponent is past 110 and they get hit by this move they're dead. It has pretty nice speed for a move this powerful and very low landing lag. I noticed that this move is particularly beast at combo'ing mk at lower percents. The only downside to this move is that you may miss it on shorter characters since it doesn't have that much vertical range.

Ground Game

Jab



Down Tilt



Down Smash



Forward Tilt



Forward Smash/Bat



Up Tilt



Up Smash



Throws

Pummel

Even though it's weak it's pretty fast if you get the timing down. I find that easier to do without any buffer. Can rack up damage pretty quickly. Be careful about using it at low percents. Don't go for more than four though. It's really easy to get out of grabs in brawl.

U-throw

This throw can be used to combo people who fall to fast to be combo'd with d-throw. Not as effective as d-throw, but it does 1% (10% total) damage.

F-throw

This throw is really weird. It has set knockback, but it's really easily di'd. If you can't follow up with D-throw and b-throw can't kill yet, go for a f-throw. It might send them offstage for Ness's **** edgeguard game, or set them up to be hit by pkt/juggles. If you want to go for juggles though, go for u-throw.

B-throw

It kills. Can be used to combo at low percents. One of Ness' best kill moves.

D-throw

A combo throw. With the buffs it has received, it's pretty at it. Pretty much all of his aerials can be combo'd into with this. Can be used to cg if they di badly. Can set up for tech chases. It sometimes can combo into grounded moves. So you could d-throw -> u-smash/u-tilt -> aerial instead of just d-throw -> aerial.

Specials

Pk Fire



Pk Flash



Psi Magnet



Pk Thunder 1



Pk Thunder 2



Combos



Videos

Feel free to post up your vids


Matchups

Bowser



Captain Falcon



Charizard



Diddy Kong



Donkey Kong



Falco



Fox



Game and Watch



Ganondorf



Ice Climbers



Ike



Ivysaur



Jigglypuff



King Dedede



Kirby



Link



Lucario



Lucas



Luigi



Mario



Marth



Meta Knight



Ness



Olimar



Peach



Pikachu



Pit



Rob



Samus



Sheik



Snake



Sonic



Squirtle



Toon Link



Wario



Wolf



Yoshi



Zelda



Zero Suit Samus



I would like to thank the WBR and the Brawl+ team for making this game possible. I would also like to thank Count Kaiser, Shanus, and Cape for working to balance Ness.

Videos:

Simna(Ness) vs skstylez(CF)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vm0KzO0vMXQ

skstylez(CF) vs Simna(Ness)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uBTMuf95Sk

Simna(Ness) vs skstylez(Peach)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OETzkx-RNNY

Simna(Ness) vs skstylez(Sheik)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qc0jFT52YM

skstylez(CF) vs Simna(Ness)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3AOQ8bR8Zg

Simna(Ness) vs skstylez(Jigglypuff)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-LUsWvCX7o

Simna(Ness) vs skstylez(CF)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BaapMPc0lDU

Simna(Ness) vs skstylez(Sheik)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLIImQk0xOc

Simna(Ness) vs skstylez(CF)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_sMfgP8DSEM

Simna(Ness) vs skstylez(CF)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8B9rl1wi-Z0

Simna(Ness) vs skstylez(CF)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tNY-icuMt0

Simna(Ness) vs skstylez(Falco)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1ZtxViXmcQ

Simna(Ness) vs skstylez(Falco)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V59BLpnfoIs

skstylez(CF) vs Simna(Ness)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9a9UYFcWDtU

Simna(Ness) vs skstylez(CF)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7w27ckRYzE

Simna(Ness) vs skstylez(CF)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGRmDoQEa1Q

skstylez(CF) vs Simna(Ness)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0y8wmhWy5M

Simna(Ness) vs. skstylez(CF)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKwdP2WvuFM

Simna(Ness) vs. skstylez(CF)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5PBzvUYllU

Sage (Ness) vs. Ryko (Snake) [these vids are selected from several sets that we played]

Round 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2J0gOyq5j4

Round 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPwZ4bHVEi0

Round 3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3Sba5xCEjU

Round 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuYX6y5nJSg

Round 5: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnKNvDarPZ0

JCaesar (Sheik) vs Cape (Ness)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEyiMbVw1MM

JCaesar (ROB) vs Cape (Ness) 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MoKlCsf1F0

JCaesar (ROB) vs Cape (Ness) 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IszkAcJEr9U

JCaesar (ROB) vs Cape (Ness) 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBbpZqFDddA

Cape (Ness) vs Atomsk (Falco) 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0y94dZkYXtU

Cape (Ness) vs Atomsk (Falco) 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjIfyrit_sc

Cape (Ness) vs Atomsk (Falco) 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiW5q6IuF8o

Cape (Ness) vs Atomsk (Falco) 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KdCryO03RY

~~~~ These vids are from previous builds. I'll leave them up here for people interested in how he played then or are looking for new things.

DeLoRtEd1 (Ness) vs BananaTrooper (Ike)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_ojG89VIvE

DeLoRtEd1 (Ness) vs Sanuzi (Peach)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WLTjf19MSk8&feature=channel

DeLoRtEd1 (Ness) vs Minus (Kirby) 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oqiTlJgMKQ&feature=channel

DeLoRtEd1 (Ness) vs Minus (Kirby) 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjn4JWeBogM&feature=channel

DeLoRtEd1 (Ness) vs Minus (Kirby) 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4mi2mTEGxs&feature=channel

DeLoRtEd1 (Ness) vs Minus (Kirby) 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoK6Uo9eJnM&feature=channel



If you have any videos you'd like me to place here, please feel free to post it and I'll add it to this list.

 

[AfroThunderRule]

I love Ness now. <3

Also, I agree. Don't give him a DJC

Here some buff that I would give Ness

- A faster bat, it makes no sense that his bat is slower and weaker compared to Lucas stick.

- That his PK thunder goes through characters like Lucas, this would help out on his recovery. His weakness. (I know this isn't a popular opinion with Ness mainers.

- 1 Frame magnet, the magnet is so useless compared to Lucas

- Less startup/ending lag on his PK fire

- A faster jab/up tilt/dair

 

[Revven]

These threads aren't for discussion of buffing/nerfing characters, Afro. I'm one of the opinion that Ness needs no buffing in anything. You can pivot his PK Fire for spacing and mind game purposes, his range can mess with a lot of characters, and his PK Thunder can be used to mess up a lot of players (especially when you use the tail of it).

He has some nice combos from his AC'd Dair. My one friend, actually likes to jump with PK Fire and then rise again with another PK Fire so he has no landing lag from the PK Fire. It works pretty well. Also, the reason his PK Fire needs no buffing is because you can't DI it at all, when you do, you barely go anywhere (it is much like bullet seed) thus, your best chance is to PS it. If he had lower lag from the end of it, this would just make things inescapable from PK Fire when he already has a lot of things from it at low %s.

 

[goodoldganon]

As Falco said, no buff/nerf/changing discussion please. If a time comes when we would include DJC we would talk to the community. If you can remove any discussion of buffs in the OP that would be lovely.

Ness is a very solid character in Brawl+. While Lucas is more ground based, Ness has some amazing aerial skills. His SHFFL game is so good.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Ness destroys fastfallers in Brawl+. He's got so many ways to force them offstage, and just as many to keep them there. Tailwhipping a couple times will pretty much seal Fox's doom.

Ness' aerials are all beastly, even the previously unused nair can combo and even kill at higher percentages. Dair kills quite well sourspotted and spikes when sweetspotted. Fair has RAZZLE DAZZLE, nuff said. Bair is one of my favorite killers since it's so easily comboed into.
Lastly, uair throws his giant freakin' head at them, so it having kill power is no surprise.

Bthrow was nerfed only by the physics. It is still arguably the best kill-throw in the game. Kills at around 100% with Ness' back to the edge of the stage.

And I must say that his ground moves are decent for a character that has an entire offense based in the air. A lot like Jigglypuff in the sense that his ground moves only exist to compliment a few choice air moves.



The only buff Ness needs is a tipper screech.

 

[Arcade]

There is a stupid glitch with Ness that shouldn't be all that difficult to fix. When you hit someone behind you with an uncharged dsmash, some characters will be comboed from the weak hit to the strong hit but some will only get hit with the weak "charging" hitbox and be popped right above and next to Ness, in perfect position to immediately punish him with an aerial while Ness helplessly swings the yoyo.

It's really a stupid oversight that limits the only real use of his downsmash even more. It could probably be solved by adding a bit more initial hitstun on the charging hit, so it'd be cool if someone would fix that.

 

[AvariceX]

Ness+ is a monster. It's no longer a question of whether or not I'm going to 0-death my opponents...or even a question of how many times I'll do it...the only question is how much lube I feel like putting on beforehand.

It's like everything combos into everything...I didn't even have to try to learn Ness, I just picked him up and did all the stuff that barely doesn't work in vBrawl and it all works. I use fair a lot less in Brawl+ though, not enough hitstun for it to be really useful for anything other than spacing, although it can lead into a grab...then a dthrow...then another fair and another grab lol.

Ness+ could easily be one of the best characters in the game; nair, dair and uair are way too good. Also being able to dash cancel into fsmash and the overall speed increase of the game have made fsmash really really good.

 

[FireKirby7]

Wow, it sounds like Ness+ is godly according to you guys.

Urge to play Brawl+..... Rising......
Does that utilt to dair spike work? Hehe....

 

[AvariceX]

^ From what I've experienced, pretty much everything to everything works (ignoring PKT2 and PK Flash). So utilt dair probably works (although I imagine they could DI towards the stage and/or tech the stage).

If you haven't played Brawl+ you should seriously try it. I played it while I was at FFYF2 and I was on the verge of giving up on Brawl...Brawl+ made me love the game all over again, more than I loved it when it was first released lol.

Sage mentioned Ness probably won't be as good when people start playing gay and to be honest Ness+ is only godly in the metagame that is available to me. We all play Brawl+ for fun, and only two of us have actually played seriously to win at all, and the other guy mains Ike in Brawl+ (who's actually pretty good).

It's really nice that Marth's grab release has been done away with though, although Marth+ actually ***** Ness+ even harder imo...it's similar to the Melee Marth vs Ness matchup.

 

[Levitas]

He's really slow...

I guess that's why I prefer lucas. I did give him a chance though, and he KOs a bit easier now

 

[thesage]

- A faster bat, it makes no sense that his bat is slower and weaker compared to Lucas stick.

Useless. He already has no problem killing.

- That his PK thunder goes through characters like Lucas, this would help out on his recovery. His weakness. (I know this isn't a popular opinion with Ness mainers.

Pkt juggling used to be extremely vital to his game (while also being unique). If pkt is fixed, that's not how I would like to be done...

- 1 Frame magnet, the magnet is so useless compared to Lucas

His magnet comes out faster and has more range than Lucas'.

- Less startup/ending lag on his PK fire

Decent Idea.

- A faster jab/up tilt/dair

Faster, Dair would be too broken, and those other moves are fast enough.

I don't want any more buffs discussed in this thread. The stuff I said in my OP was a suggestion to the brawl+ people. I wasn't planning on people responding to buffs. I'll try outlining it better in my update.

These threads aren't for discussion of buffing/nerfing characters.

I hope you don't mind if I leave in the suggest buffs in the OP. If you want me to remove them I'd like to send somebody in the brawl+ backroom that stuff so you guys can fix him if need be. Please send me a pm about this since I don't feel like insinuating drama and whatnot. We don't know how the metagame will turn out, but if camping is involved, Ness will get assraped by it. It already seems that the current high/top tiers can all camp fairly effectively.

You can pivot his PK Fire for spacing and mind game purposes,

See below comment about pk fire.

his range can mess with a lot of characters,

His only ranged attacks are his fair, running attack, and smashed (the latter two are both meh or bad). He has a lot of disjointed attacks. But their disjointedness doesn't make up for their general lack of range.

and his PK Thunder can be used to mess up a lot of players (especially when you use the tail of it).

PKT was nerfed really badly in how well it can juggle people due to the decrease in hitlag. Hitting with the tail is only good if it's safe/possible to hit the person with the head or a pkt2 mindgame. Otherwise if you get only one tail hit, Ness = punished.

The cake (pk fire) is a lie.

Uh... you need to learn how to DI out of pk fire. Snake can get out of it before Ness has finished the move. It doesn't in any way hit as fast as bullet seed does either.

Stuff about d-smash

D-smash is useless as is and that would only be giving him another kill move, which he doesn't need. D-smash was designed for edgeguarding and u-smash for combos. I outlined that in the op lol.

Ness destroys fastfallers in Brawl+. He's got so many ways to force them offstage, and just as many to keep them there. Tailwhipping a couple times will pretty much seal Fox's doom.

FF's are easily edgeguarded anyways... I personally try to use dair/nair in edgeguards.

Ness' aerials are all beastly, even the previously unused nair can combo and even kill at higher percentages. [/QUOTE]

Actually I feel Ness' nair was hurt from vbrawl to brawl+. All of his other aerials are better than it in almost every single way. It only has speed. I guess it could be used as a combo breaker.

Bthrow was nerfed only by the physics. It is still arguably the best kill-throw in the game. Kills at around 100% with Ness' back to the edge of the stage.

I had a snake survive past 150 from a bthrow in that situation. Not really that important though since Bair, Uair, and pkt2 are all much more viable killers and can be combo'd into from a d-throw. Nothing lost.

And I must say that his ground moves are decent for a character that has an entire offense based in the air. A lot like Jigglypuff in the sense that his ground moves only exist to compliment a few choice air moves.

His ground game consists of U-tilt, jab, dash attack, and the situational bat.

The only buff Ness needs is a tipper screech.

I miss that so much =(. I would prefer the ping noise to his fair and jumps though.

It's like everything combos into everything...I didn't even have to try to learn Ness, I just picked him up and did all the stuff that barely doesn't work in vBrawl and it all works. I use fair a lot less in Brawl+ though, not enough hitstun for it to be really useful for anything other than spacing, although it can lead into a grab...then a dthrow...then another fair and another grab lol.

Fair is safe on shields I believe. I dunno if they fixed that though. You can also Ken combo people with it and dair, which is obviously extremely useful. Works on Snake around 60 percent.

Ness+ could easily be one of the best characters in the game; nair, dair and uair are way too good. Also being able to dash cancel into fsmash and the overall speed increase of the game have made fsmash really really good.

A lot of other characters have combos now. You can't forget that.

^ From what I've experienced, pretty much everything to everything works (ignoring PKT2 and PK Flash). So utilt dair probably works (although I imagine they could DI towards the stage and/or tech the stage).

I think your friends need to learn how to di though, I wouldn't know about pk flash lol.

If you haven't played Brawl+ you should seriously try it. I played it while I was at FFYF2 and I was on the verge of giving up on Brawl...Brawl+ made me love the game all over again, more than I loved it when it was first released lol.

lolsame

Sage mentioned Ness probably won't be as good when people start playing gay and to be honest Ness+ is only godly in the metagame that is available to me.

It's really nice that Marth's grab release has been done away with though, although Marth+ actually ***** Ness+ even harder imo...it's similar to the Melee Marth vs Ness matchup.

That's due to his main problem (besides recovery) being that he has an extremely hard time getting through opponent's defenses. When Falcon's defense game is giving him trouble, imagine when he's up against ROB, GaW, MK, Marth. He'll get completely destroyed. Campy players will wreck him and camping has always been a strong strategy in all three smash games (yes you can camp in 64). That's why he's always been considered a decent character at the start of the metagame. Then as it continues, he fails when people start playing campy. What contributes to this is that all of his moves (save for fair) have little range, slow speed (melee wd'ing was able to compensate for this), and having no way to force people to approach him.

He's really slow...

I guess that's why I prefer lucas. I did give him a chance though, and he KOs a bit easier now

When I played Lucas I felt they were pretty much the same speed, flow-wise... I only played him for two games though since I liked playing Ness better.

I'll update the first page in a week with pictures and colors and specific move info. Though I'll give you move today since you're all so special and my favorites.

F-tilt

Combos from an fair. Can set up for edgeguarding. Useless otherwise.

Wow, everything I posted was so negative. Sorry if I sound like a ****, but I'm tired and to lazy to post in a more pc fashion. lol. just trying to get my points across.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

FF's are easily edgeguarded anyways... I personally try to use dair/nair in edgeguards.

Well of course. The point is that Ness doesn't have to put his hurtbox anywhere near some characters to gimp them. It's the same principal as Sonic's Springspike, just much more versatile.

PK Fire, dair and edgehogging are my main gimping tools.

Actually I feel Ness' nair was hurt from vbrawl to brawl+. All of his other aerials are better than it in almost every single way. It only has speed. I guess it could be used as a combo breaker.

Nair was pretty much worthless in vBrawl for me. It didn't lead into anything else, so there was no point in using it when fair lead into a few things, and his other aerials had kill potential.

I end up using nair a lot in B+ to set up for any given aerial he has. It's knockback is perfect. Uair or bair out of a few nairs is golden.

I had a snake survive past 150 from a bthrow in that situation. Not really that important though since Bair, Uair, and pkt2 are all much more viable killers and can be combo'd into from a d-throw. Nothing lost.

Snake is spike bait. xD
Him being off the stage against a decent Ness is as good as dead.
Out of curiosity, what stage were you playing on? Could help me out a bit to know when fighting heavies.

His ground game consists of U-tilt, jab, dash attack, and the situational bat.

Jiggles' ground game consists of utilt, grabs, maybe a dsmash if your opponent recovers poorly. As I said, for an aerial character, situational ground moves are a non issue. They can lead to bad matchups, but what's a fighter without those, eh?

I miss that so much =(. I would prefer the ping noise to his fair and jumps though.

That too. D:

 

[Arcade]

D-smash is useless as is and that would only be giving him another kill move, which he doesn't need. D-smash was designed for edgeguarding and u-smash for combos. I outlined that in the op lol.

I wasn't talking about buffing it. I was just saying someone should get around to fixing that annoying glitch. It's not like anyone ever kills with it, it just would be nice to actually use it as intended to hit someone close behind you without it glitching and giving characters like Wolf/Ganon a free KO or combo starter.

Doesn't dsmash kill at like 150-160% without DI? Not like Ness would have anything more to gain KO-wise with a working dsmash.

 

[Gindler]

The only thing wrong with ness now is his god awful recovery, sweetspotting the edge in vBrawl was an easy task now it's just safer to go for the stage where you can get punished amazingly easily (even Ivy's recovery is alot better)

Of course onstage his ridiculous combos are amazing. (reminds me of ivy =D)

And lol at people thinking Nair in vB was worthless, Nair out of shield was amazing and pretty much his best option. Sure that's all it was useful for really but that was enough.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

The only thing wrong with ness now is his god awful recovery, sweetspotting the edge in vBrawl was an easy task now it's just safer to go for the stage where you can get punished amazingly easily (even Ivy's recovery is alot better)

Of course onstage his ridiculous combos are amazing. (reminds me of ivy =D)

And lol at people thinking Nair in vB was worthless, Nair out of shield was amazing and pretty much his best option. Sure that's all it was useful for really but that was enough.

It's not impossible to sweetspot, you just can't PKT2 too close to the edge at an upwards angle. Oddly enough he can still autosweetspot if he PKT2s downwards toward the edge at an angle. ._.;


With Brawl's lack of shieldstun, couldn't you get an fair or grab out in about the same time to a better result?

 

[thesage]

Nair was faster and lead into other moves via DAS or dj -> aerial. Fair does like 5 damage usually.

I found a bunch of videos. Not a lot of them are great though.

 

[Revven]

Sage, I've got some good Ness matches on my youtube. Check them out (though, they may not be that recent). I'm going to be getting up more Ness matches from my friend who mains him, he has quite the interesting Ness.

I'll get them up soon.

 

[thesage]

Falca, I may attend case western next year so we could play together more often if that's case. Not trying to be a stalker lol.

Could you tell me the player's name so I could youtube him? Or could you give me a link to your channel in case I don't find it? Thanks.

 

[Revven]

Falca, I may attend case western next year so we could play together more often if that's case. Not trying to be a stalker lol.

Dude, that would be sick. Shell already goes to Case, so if you plan to live anywhere near there, I'm like 7-15 minutes away (assuming a drive).

Could you tell me the player's name so I could youtube him? Or could you give me a link to your channel in case I don't find it? Thanks.

My channel: www.youtube.com/user/smk2

His name is MX, I'll be getting the matches up between tomorrow and Sunday. There's a lot of ones where he plays Ness (although they are not up yet).

 

[thesage]

Dude, that would be sick. Shell already goes to Case, so if you plan to live anywhere near there, I'm like 7-15 minutes away (assuming a drive).



My channel: www.youtube.com/user/smk2

His name is MX, I'll be getting the matches up between tomorrow and Sunday. There's a lot of ones where he plays Ness (although they are not up yet).

I already had all the Ness videos on your channel. I missed this one though: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLnRdAzaQKU&feature=channel_page

 

[Swordplay]

I'm no ness player but I just pulled off a 0-death on my friends samus. it was SOOOO ****.

I need somebody to send it to so they can put the combo up on you tube!!!!!

If you want to offer to help that would be sweet let me know in here or PM me.

 

[thesage]

I'll send you my info later.

 

[Shell]

Yeah, don't want to go too off topic, but you should definitely come to CWRU (as long as you're okay with a heavy work load). Plenty of smash to be had here.

Let me know if you ever have any questions about it, as I'm a third year student here.

 

[thesage]

Last post about my college life, but if Case gives me enough money, I'm going there lol.

 

[Swordplay]

Okay I have it in a bin file on my SD. I could e-mail it to any of you.

 

[Maniclysane]

It would really be cool to see a DJC code be released and see how people think about it. I realllllly loved ness in SSB64, and his DJC being the main reason. The Ness community knows more about Ness then I do though, but in vBrawl Ness is literally my worst character (And lucas) but in SSB64 I could do so much with DJC's.

A code would be cool.

 

[Revven]

Sage, I added two more videos to my youtube that are of Ness. I don't play as him in them though, they are worth checking out at least.

I'll be getting more up this coming week, I'll link to them instead next time.

 

[thesage]

Ok, what I'm about to say will probably piss of a lot of people, but meh. I played brawl+ v 4.0 today and apparently it had quite a lot of changes from the previous version I played. One of them being decreasing the amount of hitstun. This decrease makes Ness have barely any combos. Usually it's like small two hit combos that barely do any damage. These combos are not even set and it's entirely based on how the opponent di's. This wasn't the only problem I encountered.

First of all let's go over some basic Ness combos:

U-tilt -> u-tilt (low-mid percents)
U-tilt -> aerial (low mid percents
Uair -> dj uair (low percents)
Fair -> grab/jab/d-tilt (low percents, not very reliable)
Dash attack -> aerial (low-mid percents)
Pk fire -> lots of stuff (works until pk fire does not connect together or they learn how to DI out of pk fire)
D-throw cg (works if they don't properly di the d-throw, works at lots of percents)
D-throw to aerial (depends on how they di, never landed a d-throw -> dair that often, but it should work)
U-throw/D-throw/Uair/dair/u-tilt -> pkt2 (also known as Project Omega, works at low percents but it's extremely situational and there's a certain percentage window this works at. Good luck landing any of these moves with extreme precision though). I only landed this once today against Charizard, somebody pretty easy to combo for most characters anyways and he still lived.

There may be some other combos, but they're usually just 2 hit combos anyways. I'm not going to go through every single detail. It is possible to get three/four hit combos with him, but it's not like you'll be 0-50'ing anybody with decent di anytime soon. I was very dissapointed when I figured this out today. I thought the people on the vids I saw were just bad at combo'ing, but Ness is the one at fault.

That's pretty much it. These work until like 70-ish percent (depends on the character). After that, Ness' moves are too powerful.

Other problems:

He's so slow. His ground speed is a joke. His aerial momentum is absolutely horrible for an aerial based character. Out of all the characters I played today, I felt he was the slowest in the air. Look at somebody like Falcon, Falco, Sheik, heck even Ivysaur. There's no way he simply can keep up with them. You have to think 3 steps ahead of the opponent when the opponent has to think 1 step ahead of you. Ganondorf's speed gave me trouble. His sh is so high. He needs to be able to do aerials quickly but half the time he spends just floating there.

Ness is very susceptible to combos. He's a mid-weight. He can't combo very well. Doesn't generally do a lot of damage. Has a terrible and gimpable recovery. This basically means you'll have to be landing in more hits than your opponent, and have a harder time doing it. The only reliable kill move Ness has is bair, which obviously gets extremely predictable. He also is killed very easily (it's not like he's the heavyweight champion) and gimped easily. It's the same problem Metwo had.

Ness' ground game is crap. His only viable moves are pk fire, jab, f-tilt, running attack, and u-tilt. Everything else just sucks. You know I'm getting desperate when I mention pk fire as a viable move. It's only because it's his only way of racking up any damage at all, and it's so slow and has almost no range and is easily dodge/shielded/ powershielded. F-tilt is randomly good at getting kills and fair sets up for it nicely. U-tilt is basically a grounded uair. It is very hard to hit somebody on the ground with it. Jab doesn't set up for anything reliable if the opponent di's correctly. Running attack has decent range and sets up nicely for an aerial, but it has the same problem as all running attacks (predictable and thus easily shielded). None of these moves are easy to land or that useful. Sure you could say Ness is an aerial character, but his air speed is so slow most of the time you'll be hitting opponents places they can't be touched with these moves.

Ness' aerials (supposedly his main attraction) are also fairly bad. Nair isn't great at combos, but is great at setting up kills/edgeguards. It has barely any range and since Ness moves so slowly in the air that hurts it a lot. Uair can combo at lower percents and kill at higher percents, but has a weird (as in generally bad) hitbox. Fair has range, but barely dues any damage and sets up for almost nothing. It does set up for fair->dair if they, again, di incorrectly. Dair is a great combo move, but it needs to be ac'd since it has so much lag. It also is pretty slow at coming out. It's a good thing that it spikes well, it's like the only thing he has. Bair is his best killing move, but it's so predictable and d-throw only combos into it (if they di incorrecty, which isn't so much of an issue since the correct di for b-throw sets this up). They are pretty fast and have little lag (save for dair).

Ness throw game is pretty good, but his crappy standing grab really hurts him. Fair is the only thing that leads into a grab, but that works only at lower percents and you need the grab combos at higher percents (where Ness is really grasping for combos). Ness' running grab is amazing, but you need to really practice how to space it. All of his throws have some use. This and his spike are the only things going for him right now.

Right now, Ness is a huge blah. He's bad at combos, mediocre at damage, slow on the ground and in the air, has a bad recovery, and very susceptible to combos by other characters.

Almost every matchup I played as Ness today felt like it was a heavy advantage to the other character. If Ness had the advantage, is was against characters that are generally considered pretty bad. Even then I had problems.

Don't say I'm bad at combos. I played Pikachu and had no problems getting combos with him and I never even played him seriously before. He was doing just as good as my Ness was.

I now have brawl+ installed on my wii so I won't mind helping the brawlplussery make Ness a viable character. If for some reason they decide to ignore my post, they can look at the videos and see that everything I've said is true. If they don't feel like buffing him, I'll just switch to Pikachu, w/e. I had no problem combo'ing with him. I'd like to see Ness a viable character outside of low tier tournaments lol.

I find it funny his combos were actually nerfed from vbrawl lol.

I'm posting this in the brawlplussery thread as well.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

What i realized is if you don't have enough time to jump off and dair your opponent to edgeugard, you can D-tilt them if they don't sweetspot perfectly. So then they have to use their up-b again and you should be able to dair (unless its lucario since he always autosweetspots

 

[StarshipGroove]

Even Wolf can probably sweetspot out of range of Ness's dtilt with ease... plus it has zero stun.

Ness is badddd.

 

[Clever_Sleazoid]

Ness isn't bad per say, he just definitely needs an improvement or two to put him on par with the "average" character.

 

[matt4300]

You have double Ness(silven) vs bowser(NL) vids up. Just letting you know.

And yeh I have already added ness to the list of chars i feel need help.Those being Link,Bowser(yes still),Ness, Peach,and Yoshi(to a much much lesser extent than the rest)
Ness Imo... just needs (i spent like an hour testing and thinking up buffs, then realised i cant post them...)

I would contribute but i hardly play ness in brawl+ because im trying to get my bowser better. But i know his PKthunder blows now and he still has a easily gimpable recovery(wich i learned to live with just like my link).

Sleazoid- Why not buff him to make him Better than adverage. What your saying is hes never gonna be that good and your fine with that... I think everyone should be up with marth,Fox,Wario,CF,Falco,Snake ect ect ect... not just in the adverage bin...

lol for some reason the chars that i have always used except for samus are and have been the worst chars...

 

[thesage]

Peach wasn't bad in melee lol.

 

[matt4300]

What? I dont play peach... wouldnet know... but my bro does.

 

[FireKirby7]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8cvnMrmK-U

Rejoice Ness+ers

 

[StarshipGroove]

Not to mention the code removes almost all endlag from his grounded thunder as a side effect.

That will probably be removed, but still YEAHHHHHHH

 

[cman]

Yea, he recovery got a huge boost. Turn off tap jump, then use PKT and hit the other person or the stage with it a few times, then use his second jump, then use PKT2 for real. His recovery becomes pretty **** difficult to gimp

 

[Veril]

Sleazoid- Why not buff him to make him Better than adverage. What your saying is hes never gonna be that good and your fine with that... I think everyone should be up with marth,Fox,Wario,CF,Falco,Snake ect ect ect... not just in the adverage bin...

Everyone should be better than average... This statement stabbed Math right in the face.

I know that with the PKT thing, Ness has a good matchup against Jiggs.

I'd love to help you guys out with testing and stuff but I'm gonna focus on Lucas.

 

[thesage]

Lol the pkt buff was ****. I thought it'd have more endlag, but w/e. It pretty much made Ness midtier now lol.

 

[CanadaKid91]

Hmmm... I don't know if I like the PKT buff. I mean, does it really fit the character?

I'd rather see him be a combo -> kill machine, instead of an offstage character.
Think back to Smash 64, Ness was an easy character to gimp, but he had some pretty insane combos.
Mind you, that was with DJC, but still.

NESS NEEDS MOAR COMBOS!!!

Why are we buffing his recovery when we could further develop his strengths?

And why is it that Ness's PKT2 distance is halved when he hits something? This should have been fixed first, IMO.