Brawl+ Ness (SEVENTEEN ****ETY THREE)

[Lil'E]

Eh... I still think USmash needs a slight KB reduction, but I'm content. The only other thing that may be useful for Ness is a PK Fire endlag reduction which I seriously doubt would be incorporated.

 

[PKNintendo]

But guys, what if the SBR refuses us?

I fear for that.
-_-

 

[shanus]

I find it a little odd that you want to make the fair larger, and then even less SDIable. It has TP, at 1.1x it already slightly exceeds its animation hitbox, and is already disjointed enough to make it a ridiculous spacing move. If you want to make the move less SDIable, you shouldn't be making the move larger, but making it smaller. The move is already like a wall of marth fair. If you want to make it less SDIable, the first few hits should be more like 1x instead.

 

[PKNintendo]

I find it a little odd that you want to make the fair larger, and then even less SDIable. It has TP, at 1.1x it already slightly exceeds its animation hitbox, and is already disjointed enough to make it a ridiculous spacing move. If you want to make the move less SDIable, you shouldn't be making the move larger, but making it smaller. The move is already like a wall of marth fair. If you want to make it less SDIable, the first few hits should be more like 1x instead.

AH!!!

You found us...
If we can't do I suggest we leave it. What do you think of the other stuff?

 

[thesage]

Fair needs to be tweaked in the sense that it "ken combos" some characters and other others it is just a spacing tool (severely affecting ness's combo game). I personally think the fair links together well enough and has a large enough hitbox. The combo aspect of it needs to be balanced so it doesn't wtfrape some people and be useless on others.

I was fine with the new trip yoyos. It doesn't need to be changed. If your good at reading it's really useful. You can read the nightly thread now to see how people feel about multihit moves lol.

I'm fine with the yoyo speed ups if for some odd reason project sa can't just replace the hitboxes they have with ones that have tp.

Simna, the buff to pkt2 you mentioned only helps his recovery lol.

Pk flash buffs are pointless, since it'll will always be bad at combos. Unlike u-smash, it can't be used OoS, while running (run -> sh pk flash won't work since the hitbox wouldn't cover Ness), and the projectile itself is still slow. It's good for edgeguarding. Leave it as is.

Simna, please give more reasons for the buffs you suggest. All you say is that they are necessary.

 

[CountKaiser]

The last time I brought this up to shanus, he mentioned if ness really needed all or this, and thought him to be pretty solid.

I, however, know that such is not the case, since Ness can be comboed easily, killed easily, and juggled easily. Other that fair, none of his aerials have any disjoints. They merely cover his hitboxes, and anyone with the slightest bit of disjointedness can beat them out.

Ness's attacks lend themselves to aggresiveness more so than defensiveness. His fair makes for his one best defense against most people. As such, I wanted to give ness the tools to be aggressive and to be a combo/kill maniac.

With his dj, his air game is rather deceptive at times, and is good at keeping the opponent guessing as to what ness will do next. This can give ness the opening he needs to open a can of whoop *** when necessary.

His air and combo game needs to be good, as his ground game is next to non-existent. Remember that it's also easy to kill a ness via gimping him.

His main problem was getting a good combo going. He could at a few situational moments, but other than that, he mainly relied on 1-2's to rack up damage.

Thus, I wanted these buffs to either set up for better combos, or to allow the continuation of combos.

This is the reason for the PK Flash, PK fire, usmash, and fair changes. The specials allow ness to either continue the combo or get a good combo going, the usmash is now a good setup for uair and PK Flash juggles, and fair is now a better combo starter.

This is what I was going for, a combo/kill happy ness. If anyone disagrees with this or has any qualms, speak now.

@Sage: The trip yoyos normally trip the person away from the yoyo. That, and the trip makes the victim invincible for 6 frames, which further promotes missing. I honestly don't see how they can be useful.

Also, are you talking about my fair?

 

[shanus]

The last time I brought this up to shanus, he mentioned if ness really needed all or this, and thought him to be pretty solid.

I, however, know that such is not the case, since Ness can be comboed easily, killed easily, and juggled easily. Other that fair, none of his aerials have any disjoints. They merely cover his hitboxes, and anyone with the slightest bit of disjointedness can beat them out.

Ness's attacks lend themselves to aggresiveness more so than defensiveness. His fair makes for his one best defense against most people. As such, I wanted to give ness the tools to be aggressive and to be a combo/kill maniac.

With his dj, his air game is rather deceptive at times, and is good at keeping the opponent guessing as to what ness will do next. This can give ness the opening he needs to open a can of whoop *** when necessary.

His air and combo game needs to be good, as his ground game is next to non-existent. Remember that it's also easy to kill a ness via gimping him.

His main problem was getting a good combo going. He could at a few situational moments, but other than that, he mainly relied on 1-2's to rack up damage.

Thus, I wanted these buffs to either set up for better combos, or to allow the continuation of combos.

This is the reason for the PK Flash, PK fire, usmash, and fair changes. The specials allow ness to either continue the combo or get a good combo going, the usmash is now a good setup for uair and PK Flash juggles, and fair is now a better combo starter.

This is what I was going for, a combo/kill happy ness. If anyone disagrees with this or has any qualms, speak now.

A long post, but is also kind of pointless as the key last line is already present in the current ness, a combo/kill happy ness.

Ness can combo well now, he can space well now, he has ridiculous aerials all with great viability. I fail to see how you can question his abilties right now as I think he is a phenomenal character.

The PK flash change is gimmicky ( i can add the speed up no problem with the limitless animation engine), as are the upsmash and downsmash changes. As much as you want to change them, they will almost always be dwarfed by the over-centralized fair metagame you are so preaching.

The current fair is not trivial to SDI (requires multiple SDI inputs to escape and is not easy to do whatsoever given how each time itll require a different input due to current aerial movement direction), and needn't be any larger. Asking for a larger or better fair makes me question how well you use it, as its already a *very* good move.

Also, you severely discount the utility of nair's ridiculous priority and utility. That move is insanely good and you didn't even mention it in your post. It might not be disjointedly large, but I also can't remember ever clanking it or outpriorizing it (looking at its flags, it might even have TP).

I'll end with this:

"His main problem was getting a good combo going."

Youre doing it wrong.


EDIT: I dont mean to make this seem like a flame post, but I really just don't get your opinion here.

 

[Mattnumbers]

I think we should just stick with only wanting TP Yoyo's, which is what people said a couple pages ago.

 

[Alphatron]

Unfortunately, it can't be done at the moment.

 

[Mattnumbers]

I understand that, but it will be a possibility soon I'm sure.

 

[PKNintendo]

Hey Shanus? Why don't you try Kaiser's Ness?
You can form your on opinion's from there.

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=c...018c8114394287
It's better than just theories.

The PK flash change is gimmicky ( i can add the speed up no problem with the limitless animation engine), as are the upsmash and downsmash changes. As much as you want to change them, they will almost always be dwarfed by the over-centralized fair metagame you are so preaching.

 

[Lil'E]

The description "gimmicky" can probably fit a lot of changes made throughout B+.

Not trying to be an ***, but seriously...

 

[shanus]

Hey Shanus? Why don't you try Kaiser's Ness?
You can form your on opinion's from there.

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=c...018c8114394287
It's better than just theories.

Its not a matter of forming opinions on something, its a plain and simple change. You're making something already largely disjointed larger AND making it less SDIable.

I can easily go play it and be like, look, ness can play better! Of course he can!

I could care less about the other changes as they largely leave his play unaffected. Its that one single change which is the big one, as it has the single largest impact on his gameplay.

 

[PKNintendo]

Its not a matter of forming opinions on something, its a plain and simple change. You're making something already largely disjointed larger AND making it less SDIable.

I could care less about the other changes as they largely leave his play unaffected. Its that one single change which is the big one, as it has the single largest impact on his gameplay.

Honestly I don't care about the Fair change either.
:embarrass

So you are saying the OTHER changes are applicable?

 

[CountKaiser]

Shanus, the SDI potency of the move was 1.5, I reduced it to 1.

If it bothers you that much, I'll revert the hitbox size to what it once was. That way, it'll look like this.

SDIability set to 1 instead of 1.5
Last hitbox does 4 damage from 3, has 60 angle, 85 KBG, 55 BKB

Makes the move harder to SDI without making it impossible to SDI, and makes it fair for it's disjointedness. It also gives ness a reason to use other moves such as nair or usmash.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

thesage: u might go back and a few pages and read my posts up to now...i think you've missed a lot. The pkt2 buff i talked about for recovery was decided not to be used by everyone including me a little while ago...on top of that you not only do not know how to use pk flash but you also havent read my posts where i say what you can do with it (i list a good deal of useful things you can do)

shanus: kinda the same question as count_kaiser...are you ok with this build except for the fair?


EDIT: if count_kaiser remembers the online matches we played yesterday.....it was very laggy, but in one of the matches on PS2 i hit him with a simple pk flash combo starting with him at 110% on the ground: pk thunder 1 uncharged pk flash to uair KO

lets break this simple combo down:
-escapable? sure. had he DI'd the pk thunder 1 hit differently he would have escaped but the point is to show a combo using pk flash
-could i have left out or used a move other than pk flash? after i hit with pkt1 he was too low% and low to the ground to get a KO with uair, utilt and usmash would send him too high to combo
-could he have DI'd pk flash a different way? he DI'd it up which lead to a uair, DI'ing down would also lead to uair, DI'ing left or right would lead to any of fair, nair, grab, upsmash

 

[shanus]

thesage: u might go back and a few pages and read my posts up to now...i think you've missed a lot. The pkt2 buff i talked about for recovery was decided not to be used by everyone including me a little while ago...on top of that you not only do not know how to use pk flash but you also havent read my posts where i say what you can do with it (i list a good deal of useful things you can do)

shanus: kinda the same question as count_kaiser...are you ok with this build except for the fair?


EDIT: if count_kaiser remembers the online matches we played yesterday.....it was very laggy, but in one of the matches on PS2 i hit him with a simple pk flash combo starting with him at 110% on the ground: pk thunder 1 uncharged pk flash to uair KO

lets break this simple combo down:
-escapable? sure. had he DI'd the pk thunder 1 hit differently he would have escaped but the point is to show a combo using pk flash
-could i have left out or used a move other than pk flash? after i hit with pkt1 he was too low% and low to the ground to get a KO with uair, utilt and usmash would send him too high to combo
-could he have DI'd pk flash a different way? he DI'd it up which lead to a uair, DI'ing down would also lead to uair, DI'ing left or right would lead to any of fair, nair, grab, upsmash

I feel ness is near shippable. I personally would like to see the fair stay as is, PK fire late hitboxes become more SDIable, add in the speedboost for PK flash, and I think that's about it.

Oh, and maybe making the wind hitbox come out sooner so its more versatile.

We've been having tons of fests here this past week, and Dangerlance has proven that the current ness is a formidable force.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

Shanus so...does this sound accurate?

-7/10 speed pk flash
-PK Fire later hitboxes higher SDI
-faster drop on psi magnet
-leave everything else as is

like that?

if anything i do think the knockback/angle/SDI changes in CK's build are nice

 

[shanus]

Shanus so...does this sound accurate?

-7/10 speed pk flash
-PK Fire later hitboxes higher SDI
-faster drop on psi magnet
-leave everything else as is

like that?

if anything i do think the knockback/angle/SDI changes in CK's build are nice

something along those lines, I'll toy with CK's fair a bit

 

[Lil'E]

Why on earth would you leave the yo-yo's as is? That trip effect is not satisfactory.

 

[CountKaiser]

Shanus, something to note.

Your fair moves the opponent up gradually, and they are hit with the top of the strong hitbox. Mine keeps them centered, and they are hit with the center of the strong hitbox. This difference makes it so that my fair sends at a lower angle overall. To compensate for this, I set the angle to 60. I think it's rather nice now.

Also, what about the yoyos? I think they work nicely too.

 

[PKNintendo]

I feel ness is near shippable. I personally would like to see the fair stay as is, PK fire late hitboxes become more SDIable, add in the speedboost for PK flash, and I think that's about it.

Oh, and maybe making the wind hitbox come out sooner so its more versatile.

We've been having tons of fests here this past week, and Dangerlance has proven that the current ness is a formidable force.

Woah woah WOAH!
Nerfing PK Fire? No way? It's Overpowered?

And yeah your matches vs Dangerlance were awesome...

 

[thesage]

Shanus I've had people DI out of pk fire after it dealt them 7 percent. I think it's fine.

Like I said earlier the only problem I have with fair is that it wtfcombos some characters and others it's useless on. It needs to be balanced out. I think this is why people are reporting such large differences in Ness' comboability. I don't have problems with the sdi-ability of the move (it's really easy to follow their di and the weak hits have enough hitstun).

Simna: I read through the entire thread. I just brought it up because in the very post you mentioned the pkt2 buff, there were no recovery buffs, even though the buff for pkt2 was clearly for recovery purposes. I guess I read the post before you edited it lol or something w/e.

What are these matches we are talking about?

 

[CountKaiser]

Me and simna we're playing a few wifi matches, and he got me in a good combo using PK Flash.

It actually seems quite useful now.


Edit: Fun fact about fair

Apparently, it does extra damage to shields compared to most moves, since it has a 1 in it's BKB value.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

really? that's a weird thing

 

[PKNintendo]

Shanus I've had people DI out of pk fire after it dealt them 7 percent. I think it's fine.

Like I said earlier the only problem I have with fair is that it wtfcombos some characters and others it's useless on. It needs to be balanced out. I think this is why people are reporting such large differences in Ness' comboability. I don't have problems with the sdi-ability of the move (it's really easy to follow their di and the weak hits have enough hitstun).

Simna: I read through the entire thread. I just brought it up because in the very post you mentioned the pkt2 buff, there were no recovery buffs, even though the buff for pkt2 was clearly for recovery purposes. I guess I read the post before you edited it lol or something w/e.

What are these matches we are talking about?

This pretty much. Whats the point of nerfing something that's alreadly seemingly fine?

 

[Deleted member]

i don't really think ness is shippable yet. we need to fix his yoyos. (chargeable off the stage)

also, has anyone else been accidently doing a weird up-air "zap" jump? same thing is as a zap jump but it's just when upair does the same effect

 

[PKNintendo]

i don't really think ness is shippable yet. we need to fix his yoyos. (chargeable off the stage)

also, has anyone else been accidently doing a weird up-air "zap" jump? same thing is as a zap jump but it's just when upair does the same effect

I think all of his aerials do that.

 

[thesage]

All aerials and maybe airdodge. I find it's easier to do at 0 buffer but I play at 0 buffer anyways lolz.

 

[PKNintendo]

Looks like we'll have to wait a month before any new Ness changes.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

anyone wana play me using count kaiser's build?

 

[PKNintendo]

anyone wana play me using count kaiser's build?

Um you still there Simna? I'd like to play ya.
Edit: Looks like I can't play. I have the new nightly and the PC is out of use. (using DSI)

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

sorry....my time got spoken for^_^

 

[thesage]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zoggv25pPns

We should figure out a way to male that a part of Ness' moveset. It would be really cool lol.

 

[shanus]

Nah, we'll be making updates sooner than later. I told kaiser I'll be looking into his stuff the end of the weekend and during the week. I was too pressed for time to make anymore changes.

 

[PKNintendo]

Nah, we'll be making updates sooner than later. I told kaiser I'll be looking into his stuff the end of the weekend and during the week. I was too pressed for time to make anymore changes.

Awesome!!!

Also, whats your reasoning for nerfinf PKF? Cheap tactic found out?

 

[CountKaiser]

I noticed that in 7/21, PK Flash was actually 2x bigger, not 1.5x bigger as advertised.

This seems to have been rectified in the newest nightly.

However, Lucas's side B is still 1.4x faster throughout the entire move.

Don't mean to be an ***, just wanted to point this out.

 

[PKNintendo]

I noticed that in 7/21, PK Flash was actually 2x bigger, not 1.5x bigger as advertised.

This seems to have been rectified in the newest nightly.

However, Lucas's side B is still 1.4x faster throughout the entire move.

Don't mean to be an ***, just wanted to point this out.

maybe they want to leave it in?
Aw man, they ninja'd a PK flash nerf?

Aw man...
Now I really want that speedup. Hopefully the next Ness changes will be put in like Shanus has advised.

PS: And he can maybe explain to me why that and PKF were nerfed!

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

pk flash should be a 100% bigger (2x)....wherever it was before

 

[Mattnumbers]

However, Lucas's side B is still 1.4x faster throughout the entire move.

They removed that like 4 months ago iirc.........