Brawl+ Ness (SEVENTEEN ****ETY THREE)

[CountKaiser]

Other than the SDIability of it, and the sakurai angle that ruined everything, nothing. People want it to be a bit bigger.

A faster executing usmash would be nice, be great for juggles.

And fixing the initial hit of the yoyos.

 

[PKNintendo]

Other than the SDIability of it, and the sakurai angle that ruined everything, nothing. People want it to be a bit bigger.

A faster executing usmash would be nice, be great for juggles.

And fixing the initial hit of the yoyos.

Yup mainly that. Priority for me are: All things regarding Yo-yos. Below that is PK Flash. And then the bat. Fair would be last for me.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

7/10 psi magnet was great except for the horrid aerial lag which is easily fixed

 

[SSBFalco]

I also liked the 7/10 a lot better than the current Ness...

I really felt he was more complete and didn't have to rely on gimmicky moves. I do, however, feel that the Fair was too much of a prominent part in Ness's gameplay after the changes.

 

[CountKaiser]

Didn't you say that the jc magnet benefitted 2 matchups?

I'm saying bring back 3 frame startup, remove the SA, and keep the windbox.


SSBFalco: What do you mean by gimmicky moves? 7/10 ness mainly got his specials buffed, and they're as gimmicky as you can get.

You're not making any sense. If anything, 7/10 ness relied MORE on gimmicky moves.

 

[SSBFalco]

By gimmicky moves, I mean the new Magnet and to an extent, Dsmash. 7/10 Ness's specials were never as gimicky as the new Magnet is. You can argue that the infinite PK Thunders are gimmicky, but those just improved the PK Thunder's uses which he already had. PSI Magnet, however, changed its entire purpose, and while I personally don't have much of a problem with it, I'd really rather keep the great edgegaurding tools he was given in 7/10 than nerf them in exchange for a gimmick like Magnet, but I do like your idea for a new magnet even better.

 

[thesage]

Comparison of 7/10 vs. 7/21

Moves that weren't changed at all in brawl+ (so far)
Nair
Uair
Bair
Pummel
U-throw
F-throw
F-tilt
U-smash

Changes both builds shared
Dair was sped up to come out on frame 16
Pk flash hitbox 2x bigger
Pk Fire comes out 15% faster (not sure if the speed up is the same in both builds)
Full Hop is at 1.2
Fast fall is at 1.2
Momentum Increased 110%
Zap Jump [people should use this more often lol]
D-tilt doesn't trip or wall lock anymore
F-smash tipper hitbox increased 25%
Dash attack hitboxes increased and the whole move was sped up by 15%
U-tilt is faster (not sure on the specifics of 7/10's speed up)

Changes unique to 7/21
Sh height at 1.0
Pkt endlag sped up 500%
Pk fire holds people in better
D-throw combos better
B-throw kills at vbrawl like percents now
Charge hitbox of yoyos trip
D-smash hits people out at a lower angle
D-tilt does 3 damage instead of 4 (I don't really understand the reason for this nerf but w/e lol)
Fair is harder to sdi out of and range is increased 110%
Psi magnet's wind effect was buffed (sends at a different angle and has growth). It's hitbox was also increased.
Psi Magnet comes out in 7 frames. Startup has super armor.
U-tilt combos better into aerials, but doesn't combo into itself as well.

Changes unique to 7/10
Sh Height at 1.025
Pk flash faster (don't have the specifics)
Infinite aerial pkt1
Pkt1 has more hitstun (I think this was in, I didn't really notice it that much though...)
Fair's range is increased 125%. Stuff was done with the weak hits and the strong hits, but I don't remember.
JC'able psi magnet. Comes out in 3 frames. Has a lot of aerial lag.
Pkt2's damage was increased.

Please note that I pulled off the data from the 7/10 changelist off the top of my head since I can't find an official one. Here's a link to the current changelist: http://www.brawlplus.net/downloads/ComprehensiveChangelist.txt. I also posted this at like 2:30 am so if I get something wrong don't yell at me.

By gimmicky moves, I mean the new Magnet and to an extent, Dsmash. 7/10 Ness's specials were never as gimicky as the new Magnet is. You can argue that the infinite PK Thunders are gimmicky, but those just improved the PK Thunder's uses which he already had. PSI Magnet, however, changed its entire purpose, and while I personally don't have much of a problem with it, I'd really rather keep the great edgegaurding tools he was given in 7/10 than nerf them in exchange for a gimmick like Magnet, but I do like your idea for a new magnet even better.

Okay let's compare the specials with the list I have above.

Pk flash: In 7/10 it's speed was increased. Didn't really matter though since the projectile itself is so slooow. I'm able to use it for edgeguarding like I did in melee. Learn which recoveries it can be used on (ie, don't try it vs. someone like Kirby). 7/10 is obv. better but the difference is barely noticeable IMO...

Pk fire: 7/21 holds people in better. With the higher sh in 7/10 he might have been able to do double aerial pk fire. In both builds pk fire was sped up and he can do FH "lagless" aerial pk fire. 7/21 is better.

Psi Magnet: Lots of differences here. In 7/10 he could jc it and it came out in 3 frames. Had a massive amount of aerial lag and couldn't be used to semi-stall in the air. This focuses on the healing aspect of psi magnet. In 7/21 it was sped up to come out in 7 frames, given sa on the startup, and the wind effect was buffed. Try using the grounded wind effect to punish recoveries that overshoot the ledge. I have sometimes managed to combo into dair with it and edgeguard spacies up-b's extremely effectively. A lot still needs to be tested about the move. I think 7/21 version is better since it helps in more matchups and can really **** some recoveries.

Pk Thunder 1:

Grounded pkt1's are virtually the same. Pkt1 7/10 had more hitstun but the difference was barely noticeable. The startup lag was buffed in 7/10. The 7/10 build also had infinite aerial pkt1.

Pk Thunder 2:
It did more damage.

Final Edit: Please don't call a d-throw that combos and a b-throw that kills gimmicky.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

gimmicky is probably referring to psi magnet wind and zap jumps

also 7/10 buffed specials along with fsmash, dash attack, dair, and fair

7/10 psi magnet helped just a couple matches as far as absorbing goes but the ability to throw it out also helped in other matchups...for instance it allowed ness to cancel a jump from the ledge into a roll/sidestep/aerial/airdodge by grabbing the ledge, pressing jump, and then cancelling the jump with downB at ground level. When i did the jc psi magnet code I had safety and mobility in mind.

If i were to combine the two psi magnets i would leave the slower startup and the SA frames but make it JC-able and drop the wind off. That would make it very useful for attacking and not so "gimmicky"...altho that idea for a psi magnet could be op....being able to tank any move and get a free aerial. My first choice would be just the 7/10 magnet with the aerial lag fixed per my original coding.

EDIT: faster pk flash made uncharged pk flash usable not to mention good

 

[CountKaiser]

Uncharged PK Flash usable for what? Finishing combos?

Well, either way, we have our grievances. What would be a good list of compromises?

TP yoyos, PK Flash speed up, tweaked fair, and my magnet idea?

 

[PKNintendo]

I guess that would be a compromise, but are you sure they would listen?

 

[thesage]

Simna: I listed the changes both builds shared seperately...

What about fair needs to be changed?

Why does pk flash need to be sped up. The new utilt does what it would do much easier. Unless we modify how fast the projectile travels, it will always be bad.

I wouldn't mind trying out Kaiser's idea on psi magnet, but I still say that I prefer the SA. The buffed wind effect needs to stay in.

TP yoyos would be nice, but from what I hear impossible. =/

It's going to be very hard to get the WBR to make changes. I still think Ness is fine the way he is now... The only thing I want is TP yoyos which is impossible.

 

[Lil'E]

Just out of curiosity... Who came up with most of the 7/21 changes?

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

use pk flash uncharged...the startup and cooldown speeds currently make it no good and either one of those makes it not useful....speed up both and it becomes very useful despite the slowspeed the actual projectile moves...

its useful for starting combos and continuing combos not to mention throwing out (since its fast and big) to mess with enemy approaches and control....because of the little cooldown lag on it you could hit sum1 above you on a platform shileding with it and take full advantage of the stun and the low cooldown on it made it uncounterable(a la marth/ike/lucario) but still reflectable.

for right now im willing to make compromise but some things hold more importance than others:

-pk flash speed up is high
-i would very much like to see infinite pkt1 return
-im willing to compromise on fair size
-for psi magnet....i dont like that new idea.....i would like to see either a return of jc psi magnet or take the current psi magnet and speed up the drop if anything

 

[Mattnumbers]

I think that Ness only needs TP Yoyo's, and after that he's fine.

Really do you guys expect the WBR to give Ness ANOTHER huge set of buffs? I like the newest set, the only problem is that the Yoyo's don't work the way they should because of clanking.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

needs more 7/10

 

[CountKaiser]

Well, matt, the thing is the set of buffs got repealed for another set of buffs.

As for who did the 7/21 Ness, it was Cape, me, and thesage.

Just so you know, the SA magnet was all Cape's idea. Personally, I want the move to be used to absorb projectiles again.

 

[PKNintendo]

Kaiser can't it?

The SA frames can't. But the move as whole HEALS much earlier than in vBrawl.

 

[CountKaiser]

3 frames quicker =/= much earlier

And I'm sure the emphasis is more on tanking moves now rather than healing.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

jc= safer healing

on the other hand you could make the drop faster which would make a missed absorb less punishable while still using the wind effect

also improved pk flash is better than improved yoyos

 

[CountKaiser]

Faster drop would be very nice.

I also have to respectfully disagree with your yoyo statement. While faster PK flash would allow it to finish combos, a faster TP usmash would help set them up, and tp dsmash ***** people who go for the ledge.

Although I do see the advantages of both.

 

[Deleted member]

I wonder if there's a way with PSA to make the down-smash yoyo and up-smash yoyo come out at the same time. LOL.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

CountKaiser: i dont think u see the advantages of both if you think faster pk flash is only good for ending combos

 

[CountKaiser]

Well, PK Flash is also made a better edgeguard since you can get it out faster, but other than that, I guess I don't see all of the benefits.

 

[PKNintendo]

True. But nearly 90% of users here think it's broken.
:/

 

[CountKaiser]

Tell them to AD through it.

If they can't AD through it, and they're constantly getting hit, tell them to get better.

 

[thesage]

Simna, if you can predict somebody quickly enough to hit them with pk flash outside of a combo then you might as well just grab them and d-throw them or fair them to start a combo. Those are both much safe and more rewarding options. The pk flash you had generally just combo'd into u-tilt. If u-smash is given TP then it also would be a safer and more rewarding move since it can combo into things besides u-tilt.

Since jc'able psi magnet removes the new wind effect I'll never agree to having it in. If you guys really want to make it safer to use, then shorten the endlag so it's harder to punish missed psi magnet or make the wind hitbox even bigger (it already ***** a lot of recoveries that are hard to sweetspot so I doubt that'll happen lol). How useful will psi magnet be if it concentrates on healing. There are only a few projectiles it's feasible or even useful to use against. Srsly...

Things PSI Magnet can absorb

Fox's neutral b (lolnotgoingtohappen)
Falco's neutral b (somewhat useful)
Zelda's Side-B (very useful)
Zamus's neutral b/side-b (not very useful)
IC's down-b (asking to get grabbed)
Mario/Luigi's neutral-b (neither character uses the moves that much to warrant calling absorbing these projectiles useful),
Ness's up-b/side-b, neutral-b (just nullifies pkt in Ness dittos)
Lucas' up-b/side-b/neutral-b (somewhat situational use to block pk fire, nullifies pkt but Lucas doesn't use the move that often, his neutral b is pretty useless)
Pit's neutral-b (somewhat useful, I never played a real Pit =/ )
Bowser's/Charizard's neutral b (he only uses it for edgeguarding really so not that helpful)
Samus's Neutral b (fairly useful if your good at predicting)
DDD's waddle doo's attack (situational, but helpful when it happens)
Kirby's up-b shockwave (this move is barely ever used as an attack...)
Lucario's neutral-b (see Samus)
Pikachu's neutral-b (pretty useful)
Rob's neutral-b (it travels to fast and he can throw the gyro at you to punish)
Wolf's neutral-b (only useful if you space it correctly otherwise you set yourself up for a f-smash)

So the list of matchups where it's somewhat useful in...

Falco
Zelda
Solo Ice Climber
Lucas
Pit
Samus
Lucario
Pikachu
Wolf

That's 9 matchups. Will buffing psi magnet's recovery ability really help Ness in those matchups? I'm not counting the Ness ditto since that's an even matchup regardless of what you do.

Infinite aerial Pkt1 isn't making it back in. Zap jump helps his recovery so much more lol. While it did make sweetspotting your dj easier and ledge tricks with pkt1 easier, those things are still possible, just a bit riskier. Grounded pkt1 has very little lag in the current build anyways.

This is my last post regarding this issue. I don't want anymore discussion of buffs in this thread since noone is convincing anybody else. Please talk to thecape or shanus or pm me if you want to continue this. This thread needs more discussion of strategies and matchups and less discussion of buffs that are given no basis to be received. Please when you ask for a buff, think about whether it will be truly helpful.

 

[Pyrostormer]

here you guys go i will share what i wrote in the livestream with you all in order to try and help ness

give ness's down b an infinite windbox and make it so that his pk thunder turns into a mini controllable windbox. if you hit with pk fire it should spawn opposing windboxes on both sides that push you against each other, and pk flash should be a huge 1hko windbox. ness should become a giant windbox, to help balance his character. ness should continuously be charging a secret windbox by simply existing, like wario's fart. after a minute if you use his pk magnet then it should explode all over the screen and kill everything. ness's windboxes should actually spawn mini windboxes that go off in random directions, and if you spawn 10 mini windboxes then they merge into one great windbox. Fsmash should work kind of like a Wind Generator and create a giant windbox that shoots out horizontally across the stage.

 

[PKNintendo]

here you guys go i will share what i wrote in the livestream with you all in order to try and help ness

give ness's down b an infinite windbox and make it so that his pk thunder turns into a mini controllable windbox. if you hit with pk fire it should spawn opposing windboxes on both sides that push you against each other, and pk flash should be a huge 1hko windbox. ness should become a giant windbox, to help balance his character. ness should continuously be charging a secret windbox by simply existing, like wario's fart. after a minute if you use his pk magnet then it should explode all over the screen and kill everything. ness's windboxes should actually spawn mini windboxes that go off in random directions, and if you spawn 10 mini windboxes then they merge into one great windbox. Fsmash should work kind of like a Wind Generator and create a giant windbox that shoots out horizontally across the stage.

That's a troll post son.

Mario/Luigi's neutral-b (neither character uses the moves that much to warrant calling absorbing these projectiles useful),

Your kidding right?
Mario's spam these badboys all of the time.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

yeah....air dodge, reflect, absorb, roll, sidestep.....u can shield it too, but shielding at least a full charged pk flash can be dangerous if only a little...just pay attention to your spacing when u shield it(can lead to a very situational shield break combo)

but yeah fast uncharged pk flash on platformed ppl is good... also use it at mid-high/high percents to start/continue combos and at low percents to keep your opponent off balance since you can throw it out rather safely and its very large....still reflector vulnerable tho......but it should be

EDIT: sage: look at the size difference between grab and pk flash
...pk flash is easier to land and combos into tons of things at high percents....u can pk flash to uair, grab, fair....lower percents you can pk flash to utilt, ftilt, dash attack or just use it to keep them off balance...

i'd also like to point out that of those 9 psimagnet-useful matchups 5 of them have reflectors and 2 of them have non-absorbable projectile options

and what do u mean you dont want anymore posts on the subject of nerfs/buffs? its been sounding to me like we were actually all kind of starting to agree on a few things

 

[CountKaiser]

Simna has a point, thesage, we're actually starting to agree on something.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

oh and another thing.....if we are to forego the infinite pkt1 (which there are good reasons to not do) then we should at the very least return(or leave in....dont remember if it was removed) the increased hitbox size on the weak portion of pkt2

 

[thesage]

Your kidding right?
Mario's spam these badboys all of the time.

But does being able to absorb them have a major effect on the matchup? Does Mario strongly rely on his projectile game to deal with Ness?

yeah....air dodge, reflect, absorb, roll, sidestep.....u can shield it too, but shielding at least a full charged pk flash can be dangerous if only a little...just pay attention to your spacing when u shield it(can lead to a very situational shield break combo)

People will learn to spotdodge/airdodge it. They did it with din's fire. They can do it with pk flash. It's already a pretty decent edgeguard.

but yeah fast uncharged pk flash on platformed ppl is good... also use it at mid-high/high percents to start/continue combos and at low percents to keep your opponent off balance since you can throw it out rather safely and its very large....still reflector vulnerable tho......but it should be[/QUOTE]

Giving TP to the yoyos would do all those things more easily and pk flash would still be able to edgeguard.

EDIT: sage: look at the size difference between grab and pk flash
...pk flash is easier to land and combos into tons of things at high percents....u can pk flash to uair, grab, fair....lower percents you can pk flash to utilt, ftilt, dash attack or just use it to keep them off balance...

I have a way easier time landing a grab that hitting with pk flash. The thing is predictable.

i'd also like to point out that of those 9 psimagnet-useful matchups 5 of them have reflectors and 2 of them have non-absorbable projectile options

My point was that even in the matchups where the absorbing aspect of psi magnet would be useful, it wasn't that useful anyways. Even if you buff the nature of psi magnet to come out on frame 1 and end frame 1 you release b, would it be that helpful? Would any of those 9 matchups where psi magnet without the buffed wind effect be that much better for Ness? The wind effect makes it way easier for me to edgeguard Falco.

If you want to buff the recovery aspect of psi magnet, don't buff the startup lag, buff the ending lag and how much it heals. That's it's main problem. Most projectiles heal Ness like 13%. If you miss the absorb you can get punished fairly easily with a combo or smash attack that probably does more damage that what you healed. The risk/reward of the move is greatly imbalanced. This is why I disagree on buffing the move to focus on the recovery.

and what do u mean you dont want anymore posts on the subject of nerfs/buffs? its been sounding to me like we were actually all kind of starting to agree on a few things

Simna has a point, thesage, we're actually starting to agree on something.

I feel that we're just listing things we want added to Ness. Basically the arguments go, "I want this, this, and this to be added. That thing there is stupid." I'd like people to actually list the reasons they want this. Do they feel Ness doesn't combo well enough? Does he die too early? Is he bad at spacing? etc.

My biggest problem with Ness right now is that he relies on fair too much to combo. There are some characters that just don't get combo'd by it (I've noticed this particularly on Zelda and Falco) while other characters simply get outright ***** by it (Marth, MK, Fox). It's like there's different groups of characters that he can deal with and he can't simply because he can't combo them. Right now his main substance is 2/3 hit combos that do a decent amount of damage. He also edgeguards really well, but has problems setting people up for the edgeguard.

This is why I want the yoyos to have TP. D-smash will significantly help his gimp game. U-smash would help his combo, juggle, and OOS game. I'll im cape sometime and talk with him to see if it's possible.

Would the f-smash change really be necessary? Do you really have problems killing with Ness? Sure some characters (like Peach) are really hard to land kill moves on since he relies on punishing lag so much. But with 3 throws that kill or combo into kill moves. All with different DI, bair, nair, uair, and dair which combos into uair at kill percents could you need anymore kill moves and its sourspot is Ness strongest aerial in terms of knockback. Besides bat is safe on shields, does a lot of damage, and devastates shields. The move is hard to hit with, but it is still rewarding when it does. Maybe it doesn't kill as early as it should, but since it now (apparently) outranges Lucas' I'm more than happy with it.

 

[CountKaiser]

Well, I want tp yoyos too. I also want a faster usmash so that it's more helpful for juggles. It sets up for them, but it's hard to follow up since it takes so long to finish.

As for giving ness more combo options, why not do something about nair? Make it more of a disjoint, and give it a more horizontal angle?

Also, I'm sure TP yoyos at this point aren't possible. Trust me, I've tried.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

7/10 uncharged pk flash is easier to land then a grab and is less punishable if u miss not to mention that even if the current yoyos didnt clank they would still be inferior to 7/10 uncharged pk flash in combo potential and in range....all the yoyos would have better would be they would kill better(unnecessary), deal more damage, and not be reflectable.

Also....the 7/10 pk flash would be a much more character unique move. I know the yoyos are already unique in that they are the only smash attacks in the game that have an active hitbox while being charged, but 7/10 pk flash would not only be a move unique to ness but also unique to every character(including ness) in every smash game

 

[CountKaiser]

But I like teh yoyos. D:

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

Can you justify that change tho? Do you honestly think that Ness needs you to like him more? [/mockery]

I have frame data right here that says 7/10 pk flash is more fun.

 

[CountKaiser]

By fun, I assume you mean useful.

Although I get the feeling ness can't have both the yoyos and the faster PK Flash. We'll most likely have to choose. Yoyos can accomplish something PK flash can't, and vice versa. It's a matter of picking your poison.

Since PK Flash can still be AD through, I say go for yoyos. As nice as it would be to have, I wish to think of future practicality.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

i havent really gone and looked so correct me if im wrong but i was just thinking....

every character in brawl(and melee for that matter) that has any kind of reflector also has an energy based projectile that is the main focus of their projectile game and in most cases the only option they have


as far as im concerned thats another reason for an improved psi magnet

EDIT: air dodge thru uncharged pk flash? with some good difficulty maybe....the size of it reached way up high to just above kirby crouching....also why wouldnt u be able to air dodge thru the upsmash?

EDIT: and no i meant fun, but it is more useful too

 

[Pyrostormer]

how much consideration has been given to my awesome ideas

 

[CountKaiser]

Hmmm

Well, let's go for it, I suppose, though I still want the dsmash edgeguard to stay.