Brawl+ Ness (SEVENTEEN ****ETY THREE)

[CountKaiser]

This just in, I'm an idiot.

The yoyos are a projectile, and the hitbox is drawn over the yoyos.

I could tell this because removing the yoyos did not remove the hitbox.

 

[thesage]

I could tell this because removing the yoyos did not remove the hitbox.

I don't get it but w/e. Can you make them not clank?

 

[Team Giza]

About the PSI magnet, I had an instance in which Ness glided horizontally in the air after tanking a multi hit attack. Odd...

Super armor frames reset on hit, so it always tanks multihit moves. :3

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

7/10>7/ 21

 

[CountKaiser]

I don't get it but w/e. Can you make them not clank?

Well, not now, but a future version of Project SA will most likely allow for editing of projectiles.

7/10>7/ 21

Cry some more.

/heavyweaponsguy

Why was 7/10 better than 7/21? In that build, Ness could fair someone 3 or 4 times, at the very least he could fair them twice without trouble. Also, that set only buffed specials, and while that in itself isn't bad, it made ness focus too much on his specials. It also introduced the longer bat, which should have been the stronger bat.

Suffice it to say, I didn't really like the 7/10 build that much. It did some things right, and several things wrong. Why do you think otherwise?

 

[Alphatron]

Cuz Sinma made that Ness.

I know that the SA frames refresh in order to tank the moves, but when I release the magnet after doing so Ness tends to glide. Probably a momentum thing.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Count Kaiser projectiles ARE props.

 

[PKNintendo]

Let's pray that we can eventually edit the non-clanking of yo-yo's in the future.
Anyway, discussion on Ness bat. Would you guys prefer a stronger bat, or a more ranged bat?

To me, I would prefer a balance of both really. Ranged bat makes landing tippers so much easier (and thats where the REAL power comes from)

With more power and less range, you could theoretically kill early with it, but landing it is hard.

@ Simna. I actually prefer the 7/21 set. More fun IMO

 

[Mattnumbers]

See PKNintendo? All that hate for the 7/21 set you had is gone! We told you you would like it eventually.

Anyways I actually prefer the longer bat even though I think a more powerful bat would fit the move more.

EDIT: I just thought that I may be thinking of the wrong person, was it you who was so against the Ness changes or someone else?

 

[PKNintendo]

See PKNintendo? All that hate for the 7/21 set you had is gone! We told you you would like it eventually.

Anyways I actually prefer the longer bat even though I think a more powerful bat would fit the move more.

EDIT: I just thought that I may be thinking of the wrong person, was it you who was so against the Ness changes or someone else?

It was me bro.



Hehe...

 

[Mattnumbers]

No hard feeling man, I'm just glad you didn't stick to your opinion on the outside just to keep people from pointing that out. Too many people do that nowadays (well there's no way to really KNOW, but you can pretty much tell when a person changes his mind on the inside and doesn't want to admit it)

 

[Lil'E]

?

What exactly about this set is more fun than the previous one?

Zap Jump and that awesome breeze from PSI Magnet made that much of a difference? The Yo-yo's are pretty sweet other than the known problems though.

 

[PKNintendo]

Don't worry, I see a fix in the near future to making the yo-yo's better.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

Ness doesnt need more kill power. A stronger bat is the last thing he needs. Longer>Stronger.

I would even put speed ahead of power.

 

[CountKaiser]

I don't want the bat sped up, as that makes it too similar to Lucas's.

And I don't see how making the bat longer would help it when it's so **** slow anyway. Stronger bat all the way.

@Matt: Hitboxes for projectiles are props?

 

[Mattnumbers]

according to Phantom Wing's FAQ thread projectiles are props.

 

[SSBFalco]

I don't want the bat sped up, as that makes it too similar to Lucas's.

And I don't see how making the bat longer would help it when it's so **** slow anyway. Stronger bat all the way.

@Matt: Hitboxes for projectiles are props?

Well the same can be said about making the bat stronger, to be fair.

I don't see how making the bat stronger would help it when it's so **** slow anyway.

Longer bat= better chance to hit, worse reward
Stronger bat = worse chance to hit, better reward

I'd rather have a longer bat than a stronger bat, it's decently strong right now, I don't think it needs to be stronger, just make it easier to hit with.

 

[[TSON]]

Well, not now, but a future version of Project SA will most likely allow for editing of projectiles.



Cry some more.

/heavyweaponsguy

Why was 7/10 better than 7/21? In that build, Ness could fair someone 3 or 4 times, at the very least he could fair them twice without trouble. Also, that set only buffed specials, and while that in itself isn't bad, it made ness focus too much on his specials. It also introduced the longer bat, which should have been the stronger bat.

Suffice it to say, I didn't really like the 7/10 build that much. It did some things right, and several things wrong. Why do you think otherwise?

Well you already know my opinion here.
7/21 just said **** you i'm reinventing all your ****

Obv. didn't do well on that.

also dtilt still sucks but sometimes you can catch people offguard with a grab out of it while onstage.

 

[Pyrostormer]

The Ness Main's Guide to Brawl+:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sAhbvTBWfc

 

[thesage]

The Ness Main's Guide to Brawl+:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2sAhbvTBWfc

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL.

Anybody else notice Ness can Ken combo characters like Marth and MK? gg unwinnable matchups (beside falco lol).

 

[PKNintendo]

I'm with Simna.

The longer bat had a bigger tipper hitbox. It usually surprised the opponent. The speed mean't nothing, because it was like saying DK's Fsmash is bad due to speed.

A stronger bat is the last thing we need, since Ness can already easily kill. Also, a bigger ranged bat differentiates it from Lucas' bat.

 

[thesage]

I'm with Simna.

The longer bat had a bigger tipper hitbox. It usually surprised the opponent. The speed mean't nothing, because it was like saying DK's Fsmash is bad due to speed.

A stronger bat is the last thing we need, since Ness can already easily kill. Also, a bigger ranged bat differentiates it from Lucas' bat.

Except Dk's F-smash has more power, more range (Not disjointed though), doesn't need to be sweetspotted and is only 1 frame slower...

It needs more power and more range IMO.

Without any buffs it's basically a slower version of Lucas' f-smash that needs to be tippered and has less range. 4% difference in killing percentages doesn't warrant the speed difference IMO...

Some good things about the bat are that it is safe on shield and takes quite a big chunk out of it as well. It also reflects projectiles, but that sees very little use in competitive play.

If we increase the damage we also have to remember that f-smash can be combo'd into at lower percents.

Does Ness really need this though?

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

dk's fsmash does have a sweetspot.....in vbrawl anyway

 

[thesage]

It's a 1 percent damage difference and barely noticeable difference in kill power.

 

[PKNintendo]

Honestly, Ness just needs the range. Power is just icing on the cake.

 

[thesage]

Honestly, Ness just needs the range. Power is just icing on the cake.

See the problem I have with just increasing it's range is that it's kill power isn't worth how slow it is. It does deal quite a lot of damage though.


Another bad thing about F-smash is that it's charge release is really slow compared to other smash moves. Maybe we could try speeding that part up?

 

[CountKaiser]

I'd rather have a slow bat that can kill at low percentages than a faster bat.

The reason why Ness's bat is so slow is because the charge release is slow anyways.

Ness also doesn't need the range. I've had no problem connecting with the bat before. I honestly don't see how the range increase helped the bat. All it does is give you more tippers. While the damage is nice, it's still balls slow and only kills marginally better than Lucas's stick.

If DK's fsmash had the same power as the tipper for the bat, it probably wouldn't be seen as good.

As for the aversion for giving ness another kill option, why are you so hung up about that? Bthrow, PK Flash, bair, uair, dair and dsmash are ness's kill/edgeguard options. Giving him another kill option won't break him, as he is susceptible to combos and can be killed very easily.

 

[thesage]

Does Ness need another KO option though? He's already pretty beast at killing people, and he's also good at edgeguarding. I think the easiest way to fix that move is just make it as fast as Lucas', so it has a little more kill power, more damage, but less range than it. Or make it almost as powerful as Dk's.

My main problem with Ness is that depending on the character, he wtfcombos them with fair, but in other matchups it's nowhere as effective. Like Zelda vs. Mk.

It's possible to fullhop pk fire and not have any landing lag.

 

[PKNintendo]

Both of you raise solid points, but something just hit me.

Why don't we increase it's power AND increase the charge time release.
GW is case in point. His F and Up smash are slow, but they have good charge release times.

@ the PKF comment. Cool.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

If there was a tier list of attack attributes in smash....power would be lower than range. Whether anyone has trouble landing a move doesn't matter. A range buff will be more beneficial.

Really tho there are just so many ways these buffs/nerfs can be done and when its all over we aren't gonna make everyone happy....there will always quite a sizable portion of players who dislike the way ness is in some form. I say we go back to 7/10 Ness and leave him there so the coding ppl can get to coding that's needed on other characters.

 

[Strong Badam]

dk's fsmash does have a sweetspot.....in vbrawl anyway

the only difference in attacks between vbrawl and b+ for DK is that his giant punch does not send him into freefall.
*disappears*

 

[Alphatron]

7/10 Ness with the fair that outranged Marth's fair, Zelda's fsmash, comboed into itself...

New magnet is useful, Lil'E. If I had a capture card, I'd show you some matches. One of them being where I tanked a Wolf SideB and pushed him offstage. Another one where I tanked a Link tilt and set him up for a meteor. It also screws with dash attacks badly.

 

[CountKaiser]

If there was a tier list of attack attributes in smash....power would be lower than range. Whether anyone has trouble landing a move doesn't matter. A range buff will be more beneficial.

Really tho there are just so many ways these buffs/nerfs can be done and when its all over we aren't gonna make everyone happy....there will always quite a sizable portion of players who dislike the way ness is in some form. I say we go back to 7/10 Ness and leave him there so the coding ppl can get to coding that's needed on other characters.

Well, if something wasn't having problems hitting in the first place making it easier to hit with won't see as much gain as making it more rewarding to hit with..

Also, I believe the wbr is essentially done with ness, other than tweaking some things. Unless props become modifiable, then we can get TP yoyos.

You also bring up a good point, not everyone will be satisfied with one kind of ness.

 

[PKNintendo]

Well forgetting about the landing issue, I agree with Simna, Range will always beat pure strength. (Especially if that range is Sweetspot tipper)

My main problem with Ness Fsmash is that it actually kills 4% earlier than Lucas'.
It's SLOWER, WEAKER AND (originally) had lesser range.

Now that's ****** up. I'm all for increasing it's power, but it also needs range too., (a balance of both before WBR gets mad)

Now... Simna. Your set originally was awesome, but it caused complaint. Ness fair was simply to good. PK Flash was an GREAT step forward. (but the speed buff caused complaints...)
Unlimited PKT really wasn't useful as we thought. (my bad)

But we get most of your changes. The new Ness isn't as cheap and has new options.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

i know some ppl here know how to DI and have opponents who know how to DI....i dont understand how anyone is saying that fair in 7/10 combo'd into itself. On top of that who cares if it had range on marth's fair? marth's fair is already a single hit move so you cant escape a good deal of the damage by DIing, its already quite fast, and its range is already really good. Ness' on the other hand is a multihit that is extremely DIable....it having more range than marth's should not be any kind of problem

PK Flash was useful both charged and uncharged where now its a little above okay charged and garbage uncharged....7/10 was not overpowered at all...people just didnt want to learn how to fight against a new character that was better than the old one

 

[CountKaiser]

Well, with SA, I found out why fair was so DIable.

SDI potency was set to 1.5. Hopefully this will be fixed.

As for the specials you modified, I only really used PK fire and PK Flash, and I use PK flash to edgeguard, not to edgeguard and finish combos. Pk fire speed up was nice, PK thunder always seemed useless for nothing other than juggles, and the jc magnet was not good, in all honesty.

I don't know what to say. A compromise would seem like the best solution at this point. Tweak fair some more using SA, speed up PK flash again, and TP yoyos once that becomes an option.

 

[PKNintendo]

I totally agree with CountKaiser. PK flash being fixed, TP yo-yo's (and some other tweaks)

Whats wrong with fair?

 

[Lil'E]

7/10 Ness with the fair that outranged Marth's fair, Zelda's fsmash, comboed into itself...

New magnet is useful, Lil'E. If I had a capture card, I'd show you some matches. One of them being where I tanked a Wolf SideB and pushed him offstage. Another one where I tanked a Link tilt and set him up for a meteor. It also screws with dash attacks badly.

The magnet can be useful. I've said it before; however, I feel that it is more of a gimmick. Note the "I feel" before responding.

It's something new. Of course people are going to most likely go "Cool" or something. The only way I'd find PSI Magnet useful with the SA is to reduce the endlag and wind for a guaranteed attack or grab. But that's would make it to similar to Olimar (although not sure if he gets a guaranteed follow up from Whistle). The fact that PSI Magnet... a HEALING special is now being used for taking damage is also just one of my pet peeves.



I prefer Simna's set personally. Not because of fair. It just felt better other than this one. That JC or whatever Magnet was horrible though.

The only thing that feels better are the yo-yo's and maybe the inclusion of Zap Jump.

Capture card shouldn't be necessary though. Upload replay from SD Card.

Although laptop is broke and typing with Wiimote now. :X

Unneeded edit: Up throw sucks. Like seriously... I don't think I ever see anyone use it. I really don't know what to say. Just thinking about up throw is making me LOL.

 

[CountKaiser]

So now what do we want?

TP yoyos, PK Flash speed up, tweaked fair, and maybe a combination of Simna's magnet and the new one?

 

[PKNintendo]

So now what do we want?

TP yoyos, PK Flash speed up, tweaked fair, and maybe a combination of Simna's magnet and the new one?

Pretty much. And tweaked Yo-yos if you catch my drift.

But honestly guys, whats wrong with the fair?