Brawl+ Ness (SEVENTEEN ****ETY THREE)

[PKNintendo]

But does being able to absorb them have a major effect on the matchup? Does Mario strongly rely on his projectile game to deal with Ness?

No but you said and I quote

Mario/Luigi's neutral-b (neither character uses the moves that much to warrant calling absorbing these projectiles useful),

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

ok so how does this sound:

-7/10 style pk flash
-improved dsmash (imo as far as a dsmash buff goes i'd say if we cant do that no aerial clanking thing then a speed/size buff would be great)
-larger hitbox on weak pkt2
-some sort of upsmash nerf
-some sort of fair change?
-some sort of psi magnet change?

and then have everything else as it is?

 

[CountKaiser]

Why would usmash need a nerf?

But that list looks good to me.

 

[PKNintendo]

ok so how does this sound:

-7/10 style pk flash
-improved dsmash (imo as far as a dsmash buff goes i'd say if we cant do that no aerial clanking thing then a speed/size buff would be great)
-larger hitbox on weak pkt2
-some sort of upsmash nerf
-some sort of fair change?
-some sort of psi magnet change?

and then have everything else as it is?

Well yeah pretty much.

Except I wouldn't nerf upsmash (Upsmash>Downsmash) as a result, we would leave out larger hitbox on weak PKT2.
Magnet seems fine to me, but w/e. As long as the new one is good.


PS: Are you guys planning to make Fair worse?

 

[CountKaiser]

I wanna make fair work will my new idea for it, since I can edit so much more with it using project SA.

When I'm done with it, I'll post a .pac with the changes I made to it.

 

[PKNintendo]

I wanna make fair work will my new idea for it, since I can edit so much more with it using project SA.

When I'm done with it, I'll post a .pac with the changes I made to it.

What's the new fair like?
Also any other changes in pac file?

PS: Am I the only one who thinks the Fair is really really good? I hope it doesn't get nerfed.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

i was under the impression that we were going to improve fair by some sort of range increase(somewhere between 7/10 and 7/21) or something like that

i guess a dsmash buff and leave upsmash the same and leave the pkt2 buff out....i just hope that all of this stuff goes thru good considering we are keeping Ness recovery at its under below-average level(which i am highly against, but meh)

 

[PKNintendo]

i was under the impression that we were going to improve fair by some sort of range increase(somewhere between 7/10 and 7/21) or something like that

i guess a dsmash buff and leave upsmash the same and leave the pkt2 buff out....i just hope that all of this stuff goes thru good considering we are keeping Ness recovery at its under below-average level(which i am highly against, but meh)

Okay good. I thought you guys wanted to NERF Fair.
With a range increasing, make sure it doesn't become broken. Although I think the current fair is REALLY solid. What's it's weakness. SDI?

 

[Lil'E]

Can someone give a reason as to why they are against the Inf. PKT1 so much? It's already been said to not help Ness's recovery much if at all at higher play.

The main reason that I'm getting from reading is that Zap Jump helps his recovery in many more ways than the Inf. PKT1 which I'll agree too. I don't get it though. If it didn't do much, why remove it? While a minute change... it did make his & Lucas's even more different and gave him a few more stage & aerial options.

And no one ever gave a decent explanation to the down tilt nerf.

Typing with wiimote. Might have a few errors.

 

[PKNintendo]

The think it's unfair that Ness gets Infinite PKT1 and Zap jump pretty much.

Plus Ivy and others don't get either treatment.

 

[thesage]

The current fair is fine and doesn't need a range increase. What should be looked into is why the last hit of fair comborapes some characters and with others it doesn't. It should be more fine tuned. Fair does not need a range increase. It's one of the largest aerials in the game already. Why do you want to increase it's range?

Why would we nerf up-smash?

Nobody is using the zap jump recovery lol. It's pretty decent lol. Pkt2 will always be a terrible recovery unless we fix all of it's problems since they are all extremely easy to exploit.

If tp can't be added to yoyos then I guess a speed buff would make them easier to hit with. It's really lame they are projectiles in this game when in the last two games they had pretty good priority...

Zap jump buffed his recovery much better than infinite pkt1. That's why.

I also don't get why d-tilt's damage was decreased, but I don't use the move anyways lol.

 

[PKNintendo]

The current fair is fine and doesn't need a range increase. What should be looked into is why the last hit of fair comborapes some characters and with others it doesn't. It should be more fine tuned. Fair does not need a range increase. It's one of the largest aerials in the game already. Why do you want to increase it's range?

Why would we nerf up-smash?

Nobody is using the zap jump recovery lol. It's pretty decent lol. Pkt2 will always be a terrible recovery unless we fix all of it's problems since they are all extremely easy to exploit.

If tp can't be added to yoyos then I guess a speed buff would make them easier to hit with. It's really lame they are projectiles in this game when in the last two games they had pretty good priority...

Zap jump buffed his recovery much better than infinite pkt1. That's why.

I also don't get why d-tilt's damage was decreased, but I don't use the move anyways lol.

Yeah, that could take some time. But I hope it's not nerfed into uselessness!
Downtilt (without stale moves) racked up alot of damage. Like 40 in a few secs. Sure Ness could automatically get Fsmashed in the face, but 40 damage>Fsmash.

Oh about the Yo-yo buffs, I know of a perfect idea to buff them.

 

[Lil'E]

Plus Ivy and others don't get either treatment.

Fair enough. Although those two can use their side specials depending on location which is impossible for Ness due to the end lag and angle. His PKT1 remedied that but... meh.

@thesage: And that's all it does. You might get one or two connects on an unsuspecting opponent if using to chase on stage. Maybe if Zap Jump could be useful after an Up Throw(which would give people a reason to use the throw) it would get more use than a recovery buff which is going to be followed by a PKT2 regardless if playing someone who knows the Ness matchup well enough.

I'll drop the issue though.

@speeding up the yo-yo's: I tried someone's GCT with a sped up USmash. It felt perfect to me. It was just too good against fast falllers and bad buffer though. Combo'd into itself up to 40~60% with or without DI if the first hit is not teched or jumped out of before the 2nd usmash. It may have had other changes though.

 

[CountKaiser]

Okay, I have

Faster usmash
PK Flash with faster startup
My new fair(in the .pac file)
larger dsmash
better initial yoyo hit

And am currently debating on

PK Flash colldown
Psi magnet change

Thoughts are appreciated.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

if not a range increase on fair then perhaps something to make it less SDI-able or giving it set knockback

i only mentioned an upsmash nerf so it wouldnt be a list of buffs....but if we think its ok to just make sure we dont have anymore things that would buff recovery....so like...

-7/10 style pk flash
-improved dsmash (imo as far as a dsmash buff goes i'd say if we cant do that no aerial clanking thing then a speed/size buff would be great)
-larger hitbox on weak pkt2
-some sort of fair change? (not range increase)
-some sort of psi magnet change?
-leave everything else as is

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

countkaiser: the 7/10 pk flash cooldown buff was 2x speed.....the faster startup was 25%....i believe it made the green animation appear on frame 17


EDIT: whats your new fair btw

 

[PKNintendo]

Okay, I have

Faster usmash
PK Flash with faster startup
My new fair(in the .pac file)
larger dsmash
better initial yoyo hit

And am currently debating on

PK Flash colldown
Psi magnet change

Thoughts are appreciated.

Totally impressed with this idea. You working on releasing it?
Lack of PK flash cooldown might appease the haters of said move.

And... sorry, but what was you psi magnet change?

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

pk flash cooldown speed up is necessary...without it pk flash can do none of the things i mentioned eariler

 

[PKNintendo]

pk flash cooldown speed up is necessary...without it pk flash can do none of the things i mentioned eariler

To true. But ALOT of people will complain.
Plus the dreaded

is this necessary? will come up. But I totally miss the old PK Flash.

 

[CountKaiser]

My psi magnet was 3 frame startup with the windbox.

As for my fair idea, I increased both hitboxes by 15%, and reduced the SDI capacity of the first hitbox from 1.5 to 1. I also made the last hit do 4 damage, send at a 60 degree angle, and gave it 85 KBG and 55 BKB.

 

[PKNintendo]

My psi magnet was 3 frame startup with the windbox.

As for my fair idea, I increased both hitboxes by 15%, and reduced the SDI capacity of the first hitbox from 1.5 to 1. I also made the last hit do 4 damage, send at a 60 degree angle, and gave it 85 KBG and 55 BKB.

Cool idea for the psi magnet.

The Fair idea... so it's better pretty much? And doesn't **** over some characters?

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

yes it is necessary and no it is not overpowered.....that necessary question is so misused

anyway countkaiser.....why does your fair need a special file?

 

[PKNintendo]

yes it is necessary and no it is not overpowered.....that necessary question is so misused

anyway countkaiser.....why does your fair need a special file?

Project SA. They use PAC files.

 

[CountKaiser]

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=c8d125abced84dd0d1014a7a667fa2b431da556ceb111e62ce018c8114394287

Be sure to put the .pac in the same folder you would put Ness textures in. Try it out and tell me what you think.

 

[PKNintendo]

Definetely going to try that bad boy out.

Tomorrow though... I gotta turn in.
:/

PS: I hope the SBR accepts it...

 

[Lil'E]

Can you post all of the changes?

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

countkaiser how do u use the pac files?

 

[matt4300]

Can you post all of the changes?

Seconded.

 

[Mattnumbers]

countkaiser how do u use the pac files?

Put them in the same folder you would put a character texture in.

I believe its Private/Wii/app/RSBE/pf/fighter/ness

 

[Lil'E]

I have to say... I think your other USmash was better Kaiser. It just needed a bit more Kb as the percent went up. I can't remember what it's called.


Magnet is better. I still think the wind is some joke gone wrong though...

While not necessary... would asking for a less tight window for the SA be too much?

 

[CountKaiser]

Changelist

PK Flash

25% faster startup
100% faster cooldown

Fair

SDIability set to 1 instead of 1.5
All hitboxes 15% larger
Last hitbox does 4 damage from 3, has 60 angle, 85 KBG, 55 BKB

Dsmash

Hitbox is 20% larger

Usmash

Whole move executes 15% faster

Yoyo charge hitbox

Sends at a 270 angle, 0 KBG, 50 BKB

I think that's it.

 

[Mattnumbers]

Wait are the Dsmash angle changes still in effect?

Also you forgot TP yoyo's

 

[Lil'E]

Maybe its just me... but Yo-yo's should be chargeable at the ledge. They are like the only smashes in the game that are like that.

 

[CountKaiser]

Wait are the Dsmash angle changes still in effect?

Also you forgot TP yoyo's

BROOKLYN RAGE

I said that TP yoyos are not possible at this time.

And the angle changes are still in effect.

You can already charge usmash off the ledge.

 

[Lil'E]

I meant without requiring a specifically spaced running usmash but whatever >_>

 

[Alphatron]

Do we have to turn off the Ness changes in our gct to accurately see the changes?

 

[Mattnumbers]

Well it shouldn't be TOO long before we can edit props with SA.

Also guys, please please PLEASE don't bring this up in the nightly thread. Just PM it to someone in the WBR and argue about it here.

 

[CountKaiser]

Alphatron: No. You will need both the gct and the pac to get the full package.

 

[Lil'E]

Oh wow. XD

SA on Pit's Arrow actually gave me enough momentum to push me into a side death.

 

[PKNintendo]

Woah these are AWESOME!!!

Kaiser, I elect you to PM An WBR member and explain our plight. Hopefully they should accept it.