keeper
Smash Champion
Yeah, that's how I feel.
Sorry for that, I sometimes have issues conveying my thoughts.
It's super effective? >_>
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Brawl - More balanced than Melee? Lie or truth?
- Thread starter Yuna
- Start date
- Status
It's super effective? >_>
People who think that characters in Brawl are equal are so funny. I don't know whether it's more or less balanced than Melee, mind you. I only know that it boggles my mind how they seemed to not have actually cared about balancing the game except maybe for the whole mid-tier section. It's like they found some sort of reliable formula to make characters about as balanced as it goes, then just went "screw it, these characters are cool and these deserve to die".
H'okay, so. In Melee, we had Fox, right? Overpowered, broken, and whatnot, we can agree on something along those lines. Let's have a look at Fox.
Fox's concept was that of a fragile speedster with weak attack who can just run around and deal damage but has trouble KOing. But they were apparently afraid that he might be too weak, so they gave him some of the most powerful and one of the easiest KO moves. Huh.
His B move is the blaster, which is extremely fast and basically deals free damage with little risk of retaliation, unlike Bowser's Firebreath, Zelda's Din's Inferno... Link's Bow...
His down-B is the reflector, the best move in the game. It was supposed to reflect, but that apparently wasn't cool enough. So they made it a murderous semi-spike with set knockback. But it was still hard to use and could be punished, so they allowed him to jump out of it. Oh, and it's instant. So, right, you have the fastest move in the game which can KO some characters with no chance for recovery, save you from combos, save you from damage of projectiles and in some cases even get the attacker KOd with their own attack.
Ness has a similar move which absorbs projectiles. It only works for some of them, it's extremely slow, and it sure as hell doesn't KO opponents. It's not even good at doing what it's supposed to do.
Now, Fox is light and easily KOd, eh. To compensate, they gave him a recovery move that covers a huge frikkin distance. But, it takes a while to charge up and is predictable, so that's a weakness right there. Okay, they added some fire to the charge-up to protect him, but still, the predictability is there.
So they gave him an extremely quick side-b recovery to make up for it.
Now let's compare with Pit.
His recovery lets him fly around freely and after using it, he still gets to act instead of going into his helpless state. Which is okay, because he's a featherweight. He also gets several jumps in addition to that, which is okay, because he's a featherweight. And he can glide, which is okay, because... he's a middle-weight?
His down-b is a reflector. It reflects projectiles. And people.
His side-b is a whirling attack. It's pretty much instant. It barely has any recovery afterwards. It deals continues damage. And can be held infinitely, so even when a character manages to shield they'll still get hit.
And because it didn't have enough features yet, it also reflects projectiles.
Pit has a bow. So does Link. Pit's bow has infinite range, is not affected by gravity, and can be directed. Link's needs to be charged up in order to gain any decent distance and not land in the ground. Pit's comes out pretty much instantly. Again, Link's needs to be charged. And did I mention that Pit's arrows are incredibly fast, too? Oh, any they can be charged, but it doesn't actually change anything. Just in case you want to trick your opponent because they were trying to dodge the arrow. Oh, foolish them!
Pit's arrow's might as well be a move called "damage". Use freely at any time to stack up some percent on your opponent.
Mario and Squirtle have moves that might as well be called "edgeguard". Using them produces a buzzing sound and makes Sakurai's face appear above them saying "no dice biotch".
To sum up the point of this comparison: They did everything they could possibly conceive to make Fox and Pit as good as they can possibly be.
But I'm ranting. Let's make it simpler.
Ganondorf is extremely slow, very strong, with good range. He's also pretty heavy.
Snake is pretty fast, very strong, with good range and an arsenal of projectiles all over the place. And he's the second-heaviest and has an amazing recovery.
There is nothing Ganondorf can do that Snake can't do at least as good, with added features to boot.
But that comparison is a little out there, so let's get even simpler.
Link and Toon Link. Tell me one thing Link can do that Toon Link can do better.
Don't try weight, because weight only helps survivability, and Toon Link beats Link there because he has a great recovery while Link's is so bad that he is one of the few characters who's painfully easy to edgeguard. The advantage in weight amounts to this: It takes 8% more to KO Link vertically. Awesome.
Don't start about range, either. Range is a helpful attribute that can increase a character's capabilities in offense and defense.
Link can hardly use his range for offense because he dashes into combat at about the speed of a mildly agitated tortoise. And he can't use it defensively because his attacks are too slow.
And don't even try saying that Link is stronger. You'd just be sorely mistaken.
Toon Link is a flawless hit-and-run character. Link is a hit-and-run character who can't run.
But in the end it still seems balanced to an innocent bystander because every match that doesn't take place between some of the overpowered characters pretty much boils down to some sort of glorified ping-pong.
Sorry for ranting, I just wanted to get this off my chest as some early writing exercise.
H'okay, so. In Melee, we had Fox, right? Overpowered, broken, and whatnot, we can agree on something along those lines. Let's have a look at Fox.
Fox's concept was that of a fragile speedster with weak attack who can just run around and deal damage but has trouble KOing. But they were apparently afraid that he might be too weak, so they gave him some of the most powerful and one of the easiest KO moves. Huh.
His B move is the blaster, which is extremely fast and basically deals free damage with little risk of retaliation, unlike Bowser's Firebreath, Zelda's Din's Inferno... Link's Bow...
His down-B is the reflector, the best move in the game. It was supposed to reflect, but that apparently wasn't cool enough. So they made it a murderous semi-spike with set knockback. But it was still hard to use and could be punished, so they allowed him to jump out of it. Oh, and it's instant. So, right, you have the fastest move in the game which can KO some characters with no chance for recovery, save you from combos, save you from damage of projectiles and in some cases even get the attacker KOd with their own attack.
Ness has a similar move which absorbs projectiles. It only works for some of them, it's extremely slow, and it sure as hell doesn't KO opponents. It's not even good at doing what it's supposed to do.
Now, Fox is light and easily KOd, eh. To compensate, they gave him a recovery move that covers a huge frikkin distance. But, it takes a while to charge up and is predictable, so that's a weakness right there. Okay, they added some fire to the charge-up to protect him, but still, the predictability is there.
So they gave him an extremely quick side-b recovery to make up for it.
Now let's compare with Pit.
His recovery lets him fly around freely and after using it, he still gets to act instead of going into his helpless state. Which is okay, because he's a featherweight. He also gets several jumps in addition to that, which is okay, because he's a featherweight. And he can glide, which is okay, because... he's a middle-weight?
His down-b is a reflector. It reflects projectiles. And people.
His side-b is a whirling attack. It's pretty much instant. It barely has any recovery afterwards. It deals continues damage. And can be held infinitely, so even when a character manages to shield they'll still get hit.
And because it didn't have enough features yet, it also reflects projectiles.
Pit has a bow. So does Link. Pit's bow has infinite range, is not affected by gravity, and can be directed. Link's needs to be charged up in order to gain any decent distance and not land in the ground. Pit's comes out pretty much instantly. Again, Link's needs to be charged. And did I mention that Pit's arrows are incredibly fast, too? Oh, any they can be charged, but it doesn't actually change anything. Just in case you want to trick your opponent because they were trying to dodge the arrow. Oh, foolish them!
Pit's arrow's might as well be a move called "damage". Use freely at any time to stack up some percent on your opponent.
Mario and Squirtle have moves that might as well be called "edgeguard". Using them produces a buzzing sound and makes Sakurai's face appear above them saying "no dice biotch".
To sum up the point of this comparison: They did everything they could possibly conceive to make Fox and Pit as good as they can possibly be.
But I'm ranting. Let's make it simpler.
Ganondorf is extremely slow, very strong, with good range. He's also pretty heavy.
Snake is pretty fast, very strong, with good range and an arsenal of projectiles all over the place. And he's the second-heaviest and has an amazing recovery.
There is nothing Ganondorf can do that Snake can't do at least as good, with added features to boot.
But that comparison is a little out there, so let's get even simpler.
Link and Toon Link. Tell me one thing Link can do that Toon Link can do better.
Don't try weight, because weight only helps survivability, and Toon Link beats Link there because he has a great recovery while Link's is so bad that he is one of the few characters who's painfully easy to edgeguard. The advantage in weight amounts to this: It takes 8% more to KO Link vertically. Awesome.
Don't start about range, either. Range is a helpful attribute that can increase a character's capabilities in offense and defense.
Link can hardly use his range for offense because he dashes into combat at about the speed of a mildly agitated tortoise. And he can't use it defensively because his attacks are too slow.
And don't even try saying that Link is stronger. You'd just be sorely mistaken.
Toon Link is a flawless hit-and-run character. Link is a hit-and-run character who can't run.
But in the end it still seems balanced to an innocent bystander because every match that doesn't take place between some of the overpowered characters pretty much boils down to some sort of glorified ping-pong.
Sorry for ranting, I just wanted to get this off my chest as some early writing exercise.
Samochan
Smash Master
Above post approved.
Oh and everyone should know by now that nintendo doesn't care about balance at all and doesn't know **** about it either. PAL version of melee is the only source of proof that's needed. >_> Metanite is prolly one of the coolest chars on the game. So of course he had to be made really good to appeal to fanboys as well. It wouldn't bode well with metaknight that he would suck right? Same with Snake. Everyone loves Snake too, Snake's the new falcon, Snake's third party and popular. Maybe they hold some animosity toward Sonic since they didn't make him mindblowingly good, lol. Oh and cause Sakurai dislikes competitive players so much, he intentionally nerfed the most awesome and fun character on melee with no rational reason. Everyone should know who I'm talking about. <_<
Ps. Brawl is not balanced
Oh and everyone should know by now that nintendo doesn't care about balance at all and doesn't know **** about it either. PAL version of melee is the only source of proof that's needed. >_> Metanite is prolly one of the coolest chars on the game. So of course he had to be made really good to appeal to fanboys as well. It wouldn't bode well with metaknight that he would suck right? Same with Snake. Everyone loves Snake too, Snake's the new falcon, Snake's third party and popular. Maybe they hold some animosity toward Sonic since they didn't make him mindblowingly good, lol. Oh and cause Sakurai dislikes competitive players so much, he intentionally nerfed the most awesome and fun character on melee with no rational reason. Everyone should know who I'm talking about. <_<
Ps. Brawl is not balanced
If Brawl is such a poorly made game, why the heck are you here? This is the main Brawl forum of the most significant smash website... I don't go join Halo sites to complain about the weapon balance in Halo and bash Bungie as horrible game designers, so maybe I just don't see the appeal.
That said it's pretty hilarious. One day Marth and Toon Link and Olimar are OMGWTFRAPE and "How could they be this blind, the game is so unbalanced!" The next day Meta Knight and ROB and Falco are considered the top characters. Everyone thinks Lucas is better than Ness at first, like Marth/Roy all over again, only the next week we have people liking Ness more... Yoshi, Jigglypuff, and Ganondorf were originally proclaimed to be awful, but I see them doing reasonably well. People originally thought to be mediocre or weird turned out to be, well, Snake and G&W.
For casting prophecy on future balance, some of you guys have a pretty terrible track record so far.
The amount of trolling in this thread is getting to dangerous levels. Time to unsubscribe from this thread to get the trolls out of my inbox...
That said it's pretty hilarious. One day Marth and Toon Link and Olimar are OMGWTFRAPE and "How could they be this blind, the game is so unbalanced!" The next day Meta Knight and ROB and Falco are considered the top characters. Everyone thinks Lucas is better than Ness at first, like Marth/Roy all over again, only the next week we have people liking Ness more... Yoshi, Jigglypuff, and Ganondorf were originally proclaimed to be awful, but I see them doing reasonably well. People originally thought to be mediocre or weird turned out to be, well, Snake and G&W.
For casting prophecy on future balance, some of you guys have a pretty terrible track record so far.
The amount of trolling in this thread is getting to dangerous levels. Time to unsubscribe from this thread to get the trolls out of my inbox...
Dynomite
Smash Champion
i agree brawl is less balanced than melee.. samus has like low gravity and like DDD has super high gravity.
o.0?
also olimar is really gay, all he does is throw his pikmen and i still havnt found a way passed it >.<
Medaknite is NEVER left open to attacks.. i find that really gay all of his attacks to like 10 damage each and has the best recovery >.<...
o.0?
also olimar is really gay, all he does is throw his pikmen and i still havnt found a way passed it >.<
Medaknite is NEVER left open to attacks.. i find that really gay all of his attacks to like 10 damage each and has the best recovery >.<...
Yukiwarashi
Smash Champion
What about Mewtwo, the most powerful Pokemon of all? >_> (At the time of Melee's release, anyhow).Above post approved.
Oh and everyone should know by now that nintendo doesn't care about balance at all and doesn't know **** about it either. PAL version of melee is the only source of proof that's needed. >_> Metanite is prolly one of the coolest chars on the game. So of course he had to be made really good to appeal to fanboys as well. It wouldn't bode well with metaknight that he would suck right? Same with Snake. Everyone loves Snake too, Snake's the new falcon, Snake's third party and popular. Maybe they hold some animosity toward Sonic since they didn't make him mindblowingly good, lol. Oh and cause Sakurai dislikes competitive players so much, he intentionally nerfed the most awesome and fun character on melee with no rational reason. Everyone should know who I'm talking about. <_<
Ps. Brawl is not balanced
Dr.Capsule
Smash Apprentice
Just as with coreygames, I sat down one day and tried ut out for the first time with players who had played the game consistently since it was released in japan, and I won almost every match! Same thing with duels, I picked up some toon that seemed fun and won more than 50% of my matches. How is that balanced in any sense of the word?
And it seems everyone and their grandma thinks there's a far smaller gap between the characters in SSBB than there was in SSBM. ***** please!
I saw my bro jump around as Young Link and thought "He hits hard, isn't that light, has incredible recovery and several projectiles. That's just sick..."
On the other hand, Yoshi and C.Falcon was downright unplayable and that's coming from someone who loved them in SSBM. Bad recovery and no combos just made it boring to even try.
I'm with Yuna here, there seems to be a great deal of good characters in the game (T.Link, Marth, Olimar, Pit and so on) but the gap between them and the "others" is huge. The slow speed means it's even easier to win with relatively fast characters since you can see the slow characters attacks coming from a mile away and just..., not be there.
DJC'ing and SHFFL'ing made the bad characters like DK and Gandondorf playable to great in SSBM, the lack of AT's in SSBB means these characters will wallow in their ****tiness forever unless someone finds a way to speed them up. (I know this has been stated to death in other topics, I haven't seen it being used as a argument in the balance-debate though.)
P.S
Just because you blew at certain characters in SSBM didn't mean the character itself blew, it just meant you didn't take the time to learn how to play it efficiently. Again, I don't see this in SSBB since there's nothing to help the bad characters. I still think SSBM was a badly balanced game, SSBB just seems to be a trainwreck in that aspect. I like it and I'm gonna play it loads, but not in a competitive manner.
(Sorry bout the grammar, too lazy.)
And it seems everyone and their grandma thinks there's a far smaller gap between the characters in SSBB than there was in SSBM. ***** please!
I saw my bro jump around as Young Link and thought "He hits hard, isn't that light, has incredible recovery and several projectiles. That's just sick..."
On the other hand, Yoshi and C.Falcon was downright unplayable and that's coming from someone who loved them in SSBM. Bad recovery and no combos just made it boring to even try.
I'm with Yuna here, there seems to be a great deal of good characters in the game (T.Link, Marth, Olimar, Pit and so on) but the gap between them and the "others" is huge. The slow speed means it's even easier to win with relatively fast characters since you can see the slow characters attacks coming from a mile away and just..., not be there.
DJC'ing and SHFFL'ing made the bad characters like DK and Gandondorf playable to great in SSBM, the lack of AT's in SSBB means these characters will wallow in their ****tiness forever unless someone finds a way to speed them up. (I know this has been stated to death in other topics, I haven't seen it being used as a argument in the balance-debate though.)
P.S
Just because you blew at certain characters in SSBM didn't mean the character itself blew, it just meant you didn't take the time to learn how to play it efficiently. Again, I don't see this in SSBB since there's nothing to help the bad characters. I still think SSBM was a badly balanced game, SSBB just seems to be a trainwreck in that aspect. I like it and I'm gonna play it loads, but not in a competitive manner.
(Sorry bout the grammar, too lazy.)
thefindingmoon
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Jul 8, 2007
- Messages
- 44
i honestly think it is too early to tell, but the argue of certain characters being able to do more kinds of kills and combos while other have hardly or no good kills or combo moves doesn't make them better, I fight mk's and marths constantly(two of the "better" characters imo) and to beat them you really just have to know what to do. it isn't about the best and most combos it is about knowing how to block or get out of them and retaliate. So the balance really isn't between good characters and bad(having a huge difference between god tier and bad tier) but it is really between good player and bad. That being said, a good player and a bad player can't be completely distinguished yet. Is Brawl LESS balanced than melee?we don't know yet. I think it will be more balanced as players get better(with whoever they want to be) because you can't change a character that is already developed but you can change yourself.
,,,art,,,
,,,art,,,
Taymond
Smash Journeyman
Firstly, why can't some people understand that we don't despise Brawl, necessarily? When we complain about it, we do so because we care about Brawl, or else we wouldn't bother complaining about it. We like it, we just think we could've liked it more. I like Brawl, so I'm here at the Brawl forums. I also think there are some things wrong with Brawl, so I'm going to discuss those things... in the Brawl forums. Where else even makes sense to discuss those things?
Secondly, you're dramatizing the situation a bit too much. Early accounts did find Marth, TLink, and Olimar to be contention for the best characters, but the key words is contention. None of those three are suddenly believed horrible, by any means. All three are still solid contenders for high and top tiers, without question. Gannondorf and Yoshi are still as bad as they were first thought, and nobody thought G&W was bad early, as far as I know. He was very immediately recognized to have been thoroughly improved, and a much, much more dangerous character.
Snake may have turned out to have a little more potential that first thought, but I don't really think the majority thought him in any way crippled, and besides, these ideas are expected to change to some degree as the metagame develops. Tier lists progress. The point is our initial impressions weren't far off the mark, not nearly as much as you'd like to think. Tiers fluctuate, but they don't often get severely disrupted. We knew who were going to be the best characters, and we were right, so far. The specific order amongst those best characters will vary, those things can only be determined over time, by viewing actual, hard results. Specific orders can't be predicted all that well.
Crizthakidd
Smash Champion
pick random in melee and vs your friend. u woudlnt win.
pick rnadom in brawl vs your friends main and u have a wayy better shot. blanaced to most people just means that each character can be picked up and have a good % to win. tiers, player skills comes into all of the equation so .. yea
pick rnadom in brawl vs your friends main and u have a wayy better shot. blanaced to most people just means that each character can be picked up and have a good % to win. tiers, player skills comes into all of the equation so .. yea
SuPa050
Smash Rookie
Ness is top tier!!!! accept it and dont fight it lol
i love 500+ post discussions :]
i love 500+ post discussions :]
False. Picking random in Melee, I wouldn't win with Mewtwo or Yoshi, but the rest I'd have a decent chance unless I was playing against one of my friends who was already better than me in the first place.
Picking random in Brawl, I'm afraid of getting Samus, Captain Falcon, Yoshi, or Link because I'd really have no chance with them.
I'm not a troll, I'm a satirist.
If I had the time and resources, I'd so make a flash about Link and Toon Link. "Anything you can do, I can do better, I can do anything better than you..."
Smooth Criminal
Da Cheef
And a sexy German, to boot.I'm not a troll, I'm a satirist.
Fawriel, I still want you to have my babies.
Smooth Criminal
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
I 've done quite well with Link actually. I find it more difficult playing with Samus, CF and yoshi.
Rapid_Assassin
Smash Master
Tell that one to Azen. He'd win with a random in either game.
I have an easier time winning with a random character against a random character in this game than in Melee, largely because tech skill dominated Melee and I had none. Characters are easier to pick up and play with in this game than Melee too. There are still good and bad characters in both games. It's impossible to make characters different without there being some advantage to someone. I think the gap between bad and good characters is smaller in Brawl, but still exists. There is also still a handful of obviously bad matchups in both games. If I random Ganondorf vs. someone who randoms Olimar, I won't win unless my opponent sucks with him.
S2
Smash Lord
Well we won't know how balanced the game is for a while until people really start getting matchup specific strategies and such down to a science. Over time it'll become apparent which characters are the best and how big the gaps in between them is.
Right now we've got a lot of good characters, with many of them placing decently at tournaments. So yeah, time will tell. As people get better and tactics/technical abilities advance, we'll get a better picture of the game's actual balance.
Right now we've got a lot of good characters, with many of them placing decently at tournaments. So yeah, time will tell. As people get better and tactics/technical abilities advance, we'll get a better picture of the game's actual balance.
Well, you either are really good at smash games or your friends really... REALLY suck, because I too have a case in which a friend of mine played (bought brawl 3 weeks ago) Melee and Melee alone, I got Brawl with EddE and a friend of mine and started practicing, two weks later this freind of mine wanted to play Brawl and so he did, he used Wolf and I was Ike and I beat him for the 4 matches or so we played, the only time he beat me was with Toon Link and I was using Ice Climbers (at the time I didn't know any of the chain grabs the CLimbers have).
I mean seriously, do you go on YouTube and watch various Combo vids by Jiggly, Pichu, Mewtwo, Roy, Zelda...? No, You can view one by a single guy who likes the character and masters him, if one at all.
In Brawl, I've seen various from many characters, and the game is new. Maybe you're right, maybe in the future we will see characters surpass one another with great unbalance, but the discussion is in present tense, and as of now the game is more balanced than Melee.
In defense of those people:
Well, I attempted to play a different fighting game the other day, Soul Caliber 3. I picked it up and learn the controls. then I played one of the more avid players at the school and, after about 3 or 4 matches, I started winning against his main! This was the first time I picked up the game...
Maybe I'm just **** good at picking up new games?
Well, I attempted to play a different fighting game the other day, Soul Caliber 3. I picked it up and learn the controls. then I played one of the more avid players at the school and, after about 3 or 4 matches, I started winning against his main! This was the first time I picked up the game...
Maybe I'm just **** good at picking up new games?
Brawl is much more balanced. For example, in melee, fox could basically own anyone except marth when two players of roughly equal ability played each other. In brawl, on the other hand, fox is no longer as amazing. In fact, nobody's in a god tier anymore. And not only that, but I find myself playing regularly with about 1/3 of the characters if not more, equally well. Everyone knows in melee that could never happen...
everlasting yayuhzz
Smash Champion
Lol @ that Fox bull****. I mained Fox and I can tell you that's a load of horsecum. Brawl is going to be even worse than Melee. It's going to fall down into 4 or 5 characters being played only again, and everyone else getting left in the dust.
God tier... would that be the tier of characters that are overplayed? Like Meta Knight and Snake, who've been winning or placing among the top 4 of a gigantic majority of tournaments?
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
That sounds more towards the balanced end rather than unbalanced.
Or rather that the character you used Pit has a smaller learning curve. Oh and the fact that you played melee so you have knowledge on what you aim to do.
What you said makes it unclear since interpretation can carry it either way.
It would be better if you were character specific that way the point sticks more.
For example how a n00b Wolf user would **** the hell out of nearly half the cast in the game simply by camping and spamming his laser.
This would show more imbalance since it shows that one character is so good, so incredibly powerful that it makes it pointless to fight if you are not using someone better.
in melee if a pro Link and a pro Fox faced each other you would at least see that Link could at some points gain an advantage while in brawl, if a n00b Wolf faced an expert Bowser bowser would have little to no points of an advantage against wolf during the course of the battle.
It could give the appearance that by shrinking the gap between skilled and unskilled the game is balanced.
This can be remedied by using speific characters thereby clarifying and showing how broken some things in the game can be.
Or rather that the character you used Pit has a smaller learning curve. Oh and the fact that you played melee so you have knowledge on what you aim to do.
What you said makes it unclear since interpretation can carry it either way.
It would be better if you were character specific that way the point sticks more.
For example how a n00b Wolf user would **** the hell out of nearly half the cast in the game simply by camping and spamming his laser.
This would show more imbalance since it shows that one character is so good, so incredibly powerful that it makes it pointless to fight if you are not using someone better.
in melee if a pro Link and a pro Fox faced each other you would at least see that Link could at some points gain an advantage while in brawl, if a n00b Wolf faced an expert Bowser bowser would have little to no points of an advantage against wolf during the course of the battle.
It could give the appearance that by shrinking the gap between skilled and unskilled the game is balanced.
This can be remedied by using speific characters thereby clarifying and showing how broken some things in the game can be.
Atmapalazzo
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Mar 13, 2008
- Messages
- 48
Let's do this MtG style: we leave all the speculation to the best equipped, and let everything be decided by one country that dominates it.
...that's us isn't it...
crap.
I'm looking back and seeing this in Brawl...
It doesn't make you work as hard, because it makes you think harder.
It doesn't make your character choice easy, because it makes a web of counters-picks.
It doesn't make you wonder if your plans will work, because you're already dead.
Does that mean anything?
...that's us isn't it...
crap.
I'm looking back and seeing this in Brawl...
It doesn't make you work as hard, because it makes you think harder.
It doesn't make your character choice easy, because it makes a web of counters-picks.
It doesn't make you wonder if your plans will work, because you're already dead.
Does that mean anything?
Neverender
Smash Journeyman
Brawl compared to melee in general is a very, very hard. I mean melee is by FAR more skill based rather than character. In brawl it depends on which character you pick. I.E- Bum. A very great DK player in melee, could beat alot of pros as a LOW tier vs HIGH/ TOP tier. Now to brawl, lets see.... DK vs Wolf. Wolf spams stunner + fmash ftw? Hah. Brawl is so lame compared to melee its not even funny. But w/e smash is smash, i like both, melee just more than brawl.
Yeah my thoughts jump around its annoying i know :/
Yeah my thoughts jump around its annoying i know :/
FishkeeperTimmay!
Smash Ace
Thats probably because no one had the endurance to play at that level of tech all day. I don't think many people could play at that level by the end of a tournament. I know 4-6 hours of precision button pressing and mindgames would defeat me well before anything my opponents could throw at me.
I only ever remember picking up my Fox when I had to pull out a win, because Marth/Link was just so much easier on the fingers/brain for long periods of time.
You'd be surprised.
Jimbo_G
Smash Apprentice
From my experience so far playing Melee and Brawl, I actually think Melee is less balanced than Brawl. I'm not a well known player and I don't have big tournament wins, but I've competed in a lot of tournaments in my local neighborhood and have generally been the winner.
See, when I played Melee, unless I picked Falco or Marth (who I believe are part of the top-tier) I generally lost the matches I played. It's just like how people say; you have that handful of characters that are great, and the rest that are pretty much useless, and unless I played as one of the top characters, I usually lost.
However, with the Brawl tournaments I've played since the game came out, it didn't matter who I played, I generally won because of my ability to play, not because of my character. Although I have my favored character, I spent considerable time learning others and I generally perform about equally regardless of the character I use. So, just my two cents on the whole debate.
Note: In my neighborhood during the time of Melee tournaments, exploits and Techs such as Wavedashing were banned from use. They were considered unfair and unsportsmanlike practices and were strictly forbidden from use in matches. I dunno how heavily that effects the balancing issue in Melee, but I thought I'd throw that out there so you guys know where I'm coming from.
See, when I played Melee, unless I picked Falco or Marth (who I believe are part of the top-tier) I generally lost the matches I played. It's just like how people say; you have that handful of characters that are great, and the rest that are pretty much useless, and unless I played as one of the top characters, I usually lost.
However, with the Brawl tournaments I've played since the game came out, it didn't matter who I played, I generally won because of my ability to play, not because of my character. Although I have my favored character, I spent considerable time learning others and I generally perform about equally regardless of the character I use. So, just my two cents on the whole debate.
Note: In my neighborhood during the time of Melee tournaments, exploits and Techs such as Wavedashing were banned from use. They were considered unfair and unsportsmanlike practices and were strictly forbidden from use in matches. I dunno how heavily that effects the balancing issue in Melee, but I thought I'd throw that out there so you guys know where I'm coming from.
Local wins will typically involve a pool of skill ranging from beginner to average. If there's a consistent winner, he may be above average in skill. At this level of play, tiers play a greater role because characters aren't being played to their full discovered potential, so matchup strengths and weaknesses become much more emphasized.
See above.
Playing skill is still a strong determining factor, whether it's Brawl or Melee. However, there are still characters that are pretty much widely agreed to be good, and others that are simply bad. In most tournaments that involved the Melee pros, or even just local ones with relatively large turnouts, top placers tend to be a pretty thin selection of characters. Why have Snake and Meta Knight won or placed very high in such a large number of tournaments? Why are there no Falcon mains winning money? Why will a top eight consistently have at least one Meta Knight or Snake? "Balance" will develop in time, but how quickly it develops depends on how quickly your neighborhood learns to play smart and play their characters well.
Well, Fox wouldn't be top of top tier, I guess, and Ice Climbers would be near the bottom. Sheik and Marth would be among the better characters, and Ganondorf might be a pretty big contender as well.
Jimbo_G
Smash Apprentice
Yeah, I didn't mean to give off the idea that Brawl was perfectly balanced or anything. Sorry if that was what it sounded like. It's obvious there are simply good characters and bad characters, and that's just the way it is. Its a fact that exists in every fighting game. What my ultimate point and opinion was, based on my experience , Brawl is "more" balanced than Melee. You're right though, there is a huge turn-out of Snake and Metaknight players as of right now. I've interviewed some people about that, and a lot of players admit to not always knowing how to deal with their unique way of fighting, with Snake using many indirect attacks and Metaknight just being so **** quick.
Taymond
Smash Journeyman
The fact that there are more viable characters in Brawl doesn't prove that Brawl is more balanced. Brawl has more characters, period. It's completely reasonable that it should have more viable characters. Brawl will have more top tier characters, more high tier characters, and more middle tier characters, and thusly more viable characters.
popsofctown
Smash Champion
It is pretty much true that it is too early to tell.
With more characters though, there will automatically be more opponenets near your tier strength to play with. In theory, right? But that doesn't diminish the distance between tippy top and smack bottom.
It's really hard to compare the balance in the games because, as much as i hate to degrade the series, the balance is pretty bad in both games (no more so than in any other fighter i guess). After months of dedicated Yoshi practice, my friend could pick up Fox with little prior experience and beat me (in melee). Now in Brawl, either one of us can pick up Meta Knight, press buttons, and come frighteningly close to winning (and we're mid-tier instead of low-tier now).
With more characters though, there will automatically be more opponenets near your tier strength to play with. In theory, right? But that doesn't diminish the distance between tippy top and smack bottom.
It's really hard to compare the balance in the games because, as much as i hate to degrade the series, the balance is pretty bad in both games (no more so than in any other fighter i guess). After months of dedicated Yoshi practice, my friend could pick up Fox with little prior experience and beat me (in melee). Now in Brawl, either one of us can pick up Meta Knight, press buttons, and come frighteningly close to winning (and we're mid-tier instead of low-tier now).
What I believe haschanged is how hard it is and isn't to master a character. I see about 3 friends of mine using Lucario and Meta Knight greatly, but EddE's brother uses Snake, at first we were pretty equal, then we got a bit beter and beat his Snake, now His Snake is a very good contender. Meta Knight is a very simple character, his smashes are fast and strong and his up-b is killer, while Snake has an arsenal of weaponry at his disposal which he can use to an extent of greatness in matches, but is very difficult to master. I see characters pretty balanced, but it takes a little harder work for one to master a specific chaacter over another, that's it. In the end, the results are pretty similar.
Did you ever watch the pros play at evo, Mlg, or FC?
PC Chris
Ken
M2K
those guys used Fox on a regular basis. Ken not as much as the other two.
More than 50% of the finals of those high end pro tournies i would guess were fox Dittos until M2k started using marth.
In 2006 Ken even switched to Fox halfway through the final match because he couldn't deal with PC Chris's Falco with his marth at the time.
Fox definately Dominated the Important tournies. Isn't that where balance really needs to be addressed? at the top level of play?
that's the only thing i could think that could change the statement "Fox dominated Melee"
Wow, get with the times.
First you talk about how Azen isn't one of the top guys any more, now you're talking about tournaments in 2006, lol.
Mew2King's Marth wrecked PC's Falco four games in a row before barely beating his Peach, then winning against his Fox for two consecutive 3-0 set wins at FC-Diamond.
Mango's Jigglypuff went on a rampage through the loser's bracket at *pound* 3.
Cort consistently places very high maining Peach.
Chu gets top3 spots and sometimes even first place with Ice Climbers.
Fox isn't the only dominant character in Melee, and he wasn't the top placing character by the end of the last major Melee tourney, either, lol.
MrPhox
Tamed Beast
we can't really discuss this either way.
words can argue for meaningless points that really stand for nothing.
when the tier lists are much more developed and agreed upon in the future, we could tell from numbers alone.
fox may have been the best character in melee, but that doesn't garuantee a fox victory at every tournament. There is variation.
even when tiers stand and are agreed upon, there will be tendencies and there will be variations. If brawl has MORE variation between different characters that win tournaments, then I would declare it a more balanced game. I think that's the best we can do.
words can argue for meaningless points that really stand for nothing.
when the tier lists are much more developed and agreed upon in the future, we could tell from numbers alone.
fox may have been the best character in melee, but that doesn't garuantee a fox victory at every tournament. There is variation.
even when tiers stand and are agreed upon, there will be tendencies and there will be variations. If brawl has MORE variation between different characters that win tournaments, then I would declare it a more balanced game. I think that's the best we can do.
rageagainst
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Oct 23, 2007
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- 257
Yuna the HUGE flaw in your thread is that your comparing Brawl to the PAL (final) version of melee, which was come to by the designers after testing several other versions. That was the FINAL version of melee, this is the SECOND version of Brawl, you can't compare them just yet (you may never be able to compare them if nintendo keeps patching Brawl).
Also people have problems with your argument because in their head they are comparing the current Brawl to the melee that they usually play, which is not the PAL one but probably a much earlier version (mabye .2? I'm not sure)
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My own personal opinion off of observing and board searching is that it IS more balanced than Melee. Sure the tops destroy the bottoms, but I don't think you understand how horribly the tops destroyed the bottoms in melee older versions, even in the PAL version. The bottom and some of the low tiers of melee were almost jokes. (Pichu, Mewtwo, Kirby, Zelda, Yoshi, among others). Here there isn't too much of a chasm between the good and the worst characters, well there is a large difference between the BEST and the worst characters but it still isn't like a melee Top/High tier vs. Low tier thing.
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