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Brawl - More balanced than Melee? Lie or truth?

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Fletch

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Ok gotcha. Thx for the nice debate anyway. I cant read more anyways :p. To tired of it and only time will tell how it will turn out. I think in worst case scenario it will be just like melee in terms of tournaments.
I think you mean best case.
 

Dark Sonic

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Still M2K knew his character then anyone can know other characters so far. I agree that he wasnt used to Azens Ike. Still the way a player uses his characters advantages and works on his weaknesses will prevail over a player not doing so. M2K got taken by surprise I agree.
And at the same time Azen does know how to play Marth. Azen already knew what to look out for from Marth because Marth hadn't changed much. M2K didn't have that luxury. I'm thinking M2K may preform better in later tournaments after he learns how to fight against the new characters.
 

Metzger

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The thing is, if you don't know what you are talking about, don't talk about it. Let people who do know what they are talking about talk about it.
There really isn't anyone here who knows what they are talking about in regards to Brawl and how "balanced" it is. There are plenty of people who know how well Melee fared, though, and I think it's skewing peoples' perception of how Brawl's game mechanics should interact with each other.

Maybe this topic should just be abandoned. Seems like an awfully defensive lot; most of this topic consists of people repeating themselves instead of getting anywhere (although that's kind of a given considering the topic at hand can't go anywhere else at the moment).
 

Ryuker

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Byn yuna:
I'm not insisting people are blind fools if they don't think those two have more potential than the majority of the cast. I insist the Dutch are fools for thinking Ike is broken while being unable to see Marth's, Toon Link's and Olimar's potential. They're not definite as in "It's the universal truth". But they're definitely among the top characters, which should be obvious (yet the Dutch can't even see that).
That was on our first day of play. I never said we think ike is broken I said coen thought it cause Johnnyboy's ike is so good.You might want to consider actually giving proof these chars **** more then half the cast instead of just saying were fools not admitting there definetly top tier. Besides that I don't get at all how you can say the dutch I'm not representing each dutch players opinion or anything. I think marth isn't definetly top tier and the ones who think just got to figure out how to fight him. Sure I see toon link's and olimars potential but I also see the potential of the other chars and I see each char has quite some potential actually. I don't see these 4 as obvious top 4 so please give some arguments why they are?
 

the homosaurus rex

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My only response to this thread will be this:

When Diamond and Pearl came out, everyone kept talking about how borked it was. I was part of that group. But what you have to take into account is that Diamond and Pearl are a whole new game when compared to the Advance generation Pokemon games.

Brawl is almost completely different than Melee, and as such, we shouldn't use Melee as a comparison. Drop all notions of Brawl that you have if they are related to Melee.
 

CaptainAwesome

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I believe anyone who's not a competitive player and dislikes their attitude uses the term tourneyfeg. Considering Smash competitive players are a very small percentage of the Earth, by your logic, many many people are idiots. That's not a conceited or ignorant attitude at all.
I didn't bother to read anything past this, but I have to stop and argue with this.

The entire issue is that you're wasting your time on message boards dedicated to a video game. If you don't take it seriously, meaning you're casual because you suck, it makes you an idiot.

Either start taking the game seriously, or go out and actually live your ****ing life.
 

benf

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I didn't bother to read anything pas
Either start taking the game seriously, or go out and actually live your ****ing life.

If more people on smash boards did this can you imagine how much better it would be.


LOL TIERS DON EXITS


you fool its all in approach! significant subtle differences in how characters approach ( comparitively better/worse) high meta-game intensive play sessions has no effect on outcome! you lie!
 

PeteBeast

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Brawl, to me is much MUCH more balanced than Melee. In Melee you would need to be Falco, Fox, Marth, C. Falcon, Peach Sheik... To be able to beat people, the rest of the characters like G&W, Jiggly, Kirby, weren't that good or even considered for tournaments.

Now, take a look at Brawl, we have the Spacies: Fox, Falco and Wolf, all great characters, we have Toon Link, Olimar, Zelda/Sheik, DK, Didd Kong, D3, Marth, Metaknight, Kirby, Bowser, Snake, Sonic, ROB, Pikachu... Hell, it's easier to name the bad players rather than the good ones. Brawl is much more balanced than Melee in my opinion, Haven't you notied the difficulty in choosing a main? I for one was a FOX ONLY user from N64 to Melee, right now I'm using Fox, Diddy, Pikachu, Wolf, Falco and learning a thing or two about the others.
 

Fletch

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Brawl, to me is much MUCH more balanced than Melee. In Melee you would need to be Falco, Fox, Marth, C. Falcon, Peach Sheik... To be able to beat people, the rest of the characters like G&W, Jiggly, Kirby, weren't that good or even considered for tournaments.

Now, take a look at Brawl, we have the Spacies: Fox, Falco and Wolf, all great characters, we have Toon Link, Olimar, Zelda/Sheik, DK, Didd Kong, D3, Marth, Metaknight, Kirby, Bowser, Snake, Sonic, ROB, Pikachu... Hell, it's easier to name the bad players rather than the good ones. Brawl is much more balanced than Melee in my opinion, Haven't you notied the difficulty in choosing a main? I for one was a FOX ONLY user from N64 to Melee, right now I'm using Fox, Diddy, Pikachu, Wolf, Falco and learning a thing or two about the others.
You're aware that a Jiggs won the last major Melee tournament right? I hope your post was a joke... Brawl is going to be more imbalanced than Melee.
 

nintengod

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You're aware that a Jiggs won the last major Melee tournament right? I hope your post was a joke... Brawl is going to be more imbalanced than Melee.
i doubt it, infinite air dodging AND infinite ground dodging, every character can dodge anything
so its not a matter of which character is better, its which person can dodge the best
i beat the so called "best 1on1s" (pit/rob) with the so called "worst 1on1s" (yoshi/ganon) all the time, im top 10 in smashbrawlrankings because all you have to do is DODGE!
 

Dark Sonic

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^^I'll have you changing your opinion after a few shield breakers.

lol What if they're both good at dodging. Why do people not get the concept of evenly skilled players?
 

Tyr_03

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I think it's too early to tell whether Brawl will be more unbalanced. Dedede's chaingrabs may make him ridiculous. Especially with M2K and Zelgadis (?) playing Dedede. Snake and Wolf also seem to be doing annoyingly well in tournaments. But there could be changes in the future that turn things around. Melee was getting more balanced as it developed because of amazing players like Germ, The King, Gimpyfish and Simna who played the lower tiers. So who knows. Either way I still like Melee better but I play Brawl almost as much because there are more people to play it with *shrug*
 

Zankoku

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Looking at tournament results of major tournaments so far, it looks like god tier is pretty unbalanced - Meta Knight and Snake are a step above everyone else, and there's more representation at the top than the whole "Ken/Mew2king making Marth top placing" during Melee. The high tier looks quite a bit more diverse, but there's a sizable list of characters unviable for tournaments at all.
 

AmigoOne

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this could all change, however... but i do not believe that brawl will have many balancing issues... and on the plus side, it seems that they are actually using the wiiconnect24 to patch balancing problems (read thread on differences between US/Japan releases).
Can you provide the link?
 

Kyd

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Balance is an issue and people keep looking at characters for it. The characters are by far more balanced than those of Melee because everyone has a better recovery which means better chance for comeback.

Gameplay is tricky. Tripping is very horrible and there's no way to stop it from happening. follow a combo, trip, KOed. It seriously can be that fast. The problem with character balance is (A) it has a rock-paper-scissors effect where certain characters have obvious advantages to others and (B) the stages that characters are used on, which to be honest there are really no stages where any character has the same chance as another at winning.

I'm a hardcore Brawl player but spend some time in the Melee boards and you get to see more flaws in the game, and of course trial-by-error. The only balance that matters in Brawl is the same as Melee: how good the players are with the characters and stages that they work with.
 

DarkKnight077

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Gameplay is tricky. Tripping is very horrible and there's no way to stop it from happening. follow a combo, trip, KOed. It seriously can be that fast. The problem with character balance is (A) it has a rock-paper-scissors effect where certain characters have obvious advantages to others
What is this Megaman? Megaman has a rock-paper-scissor effect as well. In Melee it wasn't like that. Sure Link has the disadvantage against Fox but it's not like you couldn't win if the Fox didn't know what it was doing. That was based on Skill.

If Brawl is going to be like Megaman then Meta and Snake will just be winning the entire Brawl tournaments. ...The worst things is that the top characters are just that much better than whatever the lower characters have like Link or even Yoshi.
 

Rapid_Assassin

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i doubt it, infinite air dodging AND infinite ground dodging, every character can dodge anything
so its not a matter of which character is better, its which person can dodge the best
i beat the so called "best 1on1s" (pit/rob) with the so called "worst 1on1s" (yoshi/ganon) all the time, im top 10 in smashbrawlrankings because all you have to do is DODGE!
Money match? You live close enough to me.. :p
 

Kyd

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What is this Megaman? Megaman has a rock-paper-scissor effect as well. In Melee it wasn't like that. Sure Link has the disadvantage against Fox but it's not like you couldn't win if the Fox didn't know what it was doing. That was based on Skill.

If Brawl is going to be like Megaman then Meta and Snake will just be winning the entire Brawl tournaments. ...The worst things is that the top characters are just that much better than whatever the lower characters have like Link or even Yoshi.
last time i checked good players typically use more than one character in the game, so how does this take away from skill?
 

DarkKnight077

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last time i checked good players typically use more than one character in the game, so how does this take away from skill?
Because those players will just use who ever is winning. Like in MvC2, most of them are "god" tiers or high "tiers". Why? Because the rest are looked down upon. It's the same thing with Brawl right now, there isn't a define line where the meta game goes either way. It only goes one way and that's not cool. What I am trying to say here is this, most of the upper characters in Brawl are going to have a serious advantage than the lower characters. There fore skill won't be as needed now you make ask why?

Lets look at from an easier point. For example I main Link, now Link might be a low tier character with some flaws here and there. But lets say I go to a tournament and the majority are Metas and Snake. That's the problem there, it isn't skill it's balance. Plus the Skill in Brawl only fits in certain characters otherwise use exploitations like laser lock, jab lock and maybe a chain grab infinite. That's not skill, that is cheating.
 

Kyd

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its because Metas and Snakes are put up so much. Jigglypuff sucked in Melee(yeah, before people used her more) and never had a chance at being a high tier character. So who won that last major Melee tourney? Brawl just came out and this is how Melee started. Give Brawl time, people will find things about other characters to be worth your while. Otherwise just keep with Link and find ways to use him better. That's skill.
 

Zankoku

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Jigglypuff never sucked, Kyd. She was in the upper ranks of middle tier. You know, around where Captain Falcon is? Mango just happened to prove to be an exceptional Jigglypuff player.

There are plenty of characters being used in tournaments. It's no coincidence that the winner of so many of them have been Meta Knight and Snake players.
 

Kyd

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just keep track over the next year. i can promise that more players will find little tricks to make their characters better. Its a simple trial-by-error process that takes time.
 

Zankoku

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While living in the past doesn't work either, I don't like to make promises on a grand scale of the future. Only the present and recent events can be used for effective data.
 

Taymond

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The mere possibility of advancements to the metagame doesn't prove their existence, Kyd.

Melee's beginnings were not, actually, just like this. The situation now is much, much different than it was back then, for a handful of reasons, and there's no logical way to claim that since something happened then, it will happen now. If the situations NOW are so different, why would they get any more similar down the road? Melee was a wildly different story.

The Rubik's cube was thought to be far more impossible than it actually is when it first was made. People struggled with it for a good while, then a few got it, then eventually more people learned how to get it. When 4x4x4 and 5x5x5 cubes were introduced, they would be solved much quicker, because people who were successful at the original model had a better idea about how to go about solving them, in general, and what to look for as they were attempting to.

We know a lot more than we did then, and the situation is quite different. Brawl has advanced far, far faster than Melee did already, and it's downright foolish to think that we necessarily have as much left to find in Brawl that people did in the same amount of time in Melee. We left early Melee in the dust shortly after E for All. We've got more people, we've got more intent, we've got better searching skills, we've got already-established communities to pool knowledge with. Brawl's nuances have not so far and will not in the future remain hidden as long as Melee's did.

Broad claims about the future have little more than conjecture behind them.
 

Chrono Centaur

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I find that the division between God and Bad tier is bigger, but there are more high-tier characters than low-tier ones. Or a more diverse god-tier, besides Space animals + Marth last game

and that, yes, Brawl is less balanced.
 

BEES

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Killing people really is tough in Brawl. It's frustrating that you can't knock people farther than they can recover like previous games. Now you have to rely on your most powerful attacks to finish opponents off, but these are not equivalently balanced among all characters, and it doesn't appear possible to combo into them.

Some characters don't have attacks that kill until 150%. Some can kill at 40%. This disparity, which seems to come with very little to balance it out, is influencing speculative tier placements right now.

The characters winning tournaments are the ones that have a good combination of killing power, speed, priority, and recovery.
 

xDarkElement

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Brawl is balanced, anything could happen. If your saying one character rapes one another, its just that the other person is better. It all depends how you space your selves, or your mind games you play with your opponent. Brawl doesnt have real "combos" making it more fair. Its pretty balanced.
 

VulgarHandGestures

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Hey, someone reliable.

Keep in mind that the cast is larger. Also, balance is not only important in how many characters can be picked up and have a decent chance in placing high at a tournament (a number higher than some people seem to think in Melee but then again, I play PAL) but also in how big the differences are between the Good Ones and the Bad Ones.

I mean, maybe 10 characters now have a chance of winning a tournament. Meanwhile, the 21 others pretty much don't stand a chance against said 10 characters unless they have a specific favourable matchup against one or two of them or the opponents screw up big-time. That's also a balance issue, for instance. A similar one is that there's a 5-man Top Tier and a 5-man High Tier. The gap between the Tops and the Highs is palpatable but can be overcome. The gaps between each subsequent tier is at least as palpatable or even moreso. In the end, the gap between Top and Bottom is huge. Huge as in "Not in a million years".

I mean, in Melee, there were tiers and really, really bad matchups. But even the Low Tiers could win against the Tops and Highs depending on the matchup. Most matchups were obviously an uphill battle but it's not like all Low Tier characters had Sheik vs. Bowser against the higher tiers (especially not in PAL).

And Marth just breaks all rules altogether.
i'm not sure what has been said in the other 30 or so pages of this thread, but this post was especially telling for me.

as far as i can tell, this is just completely false. if i remember correctly, the lowest ranked character in melee to win a tournament was ness, and that was near the beginning of the game's life, and he ended up being mid tier if i remember. contrast that with brawl, where sonic, a character that many are placing in the very bottom tier, has already won a handful of tournaments. not as many as snake/metaknight, but really, who else is on snake and metaknight's level?

tournament placings, at this point in the game, are showing that a decent majority of the cast is tournament viable. that number may change, but at this point, brawl is easily more balanced than melee, considering current tournament results.
 

RyuuAqua

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I also haven't read the past 32 pages, but one way in which Brawl seems to be far more balanced than Melee is that slower, heavier characters can match up evenly against lighter or faster characters. Melee's best characters were all fast and light or medium-weight characters (Fox, Falco, Sheik, Marth), while Brawl's have a variety of weights.

"Balance" is such a huge concept that it's hard to say which game is more balanaced at this point. Brawl has more viable characters, but has more characters overall. The game engine makes recovery easier for all and increases DI in lieu of wavedashing and L-canceling. I'm going to have to wait and see to make a verdict on this one. (Melee wasn't even a balanced game in an of itself, really...)
 

Maxxthepenguin

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Observation: Whenever I see somebody say Brawl is less balanced then Melee, when the person bothers to give an example of a character who will dominate the tournament scene, it is rarely the same character that other people making the same argument choose. EG: How can somebody beat falco's laser? How can people beat pit's camping? How can people beat snake's mindgames and tricks? How can people beat MK's priority? How can people beat D^3's chaingrab? How can people beat Marth's range?

All of those, and more, are held up as examples as to how Brawl is less balanced and, yet, there are tons of those examples.
 

PeteBeast

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You're aware that a Jiggs won the last major Melee tournament right? I hope your post was a joke... Brawl is going to be more imbalanced than Melee.
What do you want me to say? "sorry for not being up-to-date with tournaments"? My post was MY opinion. There are always people who know how to play with a certain character, underpowered or not, to an extent that leaves us speechless, yet who are the top names of Melee? Marth, Fox, Falco users (and some others who I don't need to mention). The balance in Brawl is much greater than it was in Melee, there's no point discussing this in my opinion, it's something that me and ALL my friends who are Melee and Brawl players have noticed.
 

PeteBeast

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Melee's best characters were all fast and light or medium-weight characters (Fox, Falco, Sheik, Marth), while Brawl's have a variety of weights.
You mean Fast and Heavy, fast and light doesn't work.

Fox was fast and heavy, which was a contributing factor to his god-tier characteristic.
 
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