Brawl - More balanced than Melee? Lie or truth?

[Yuna]

No, you can't, because he never owed you anything in the first place. No one said you can't have opinions on the game and how it compares to others.

What is "silly" is the notion that this game did not have beta-testers or that Sakurai was somehow unconcerned with the balance of the game.

No one said he owed us anything. Someone said it'd be nice if he'd gotten more competent beta-testers, not that he didn't get any at all.

Gimme a break. Have you even played the game?

Yes I have. Have you?

Not only are you passing judgement on a game before it's widespread release, you propose injecting your ideas about balance into the game; your ideas instead of those of the man who crafted the entire thing himself in the first place.

Sakurai is not God. Even he makes mistakes.

You know NTSC Sheik? Did you know that in the beta, her Upair was even better and she had exploding needles?

I just don't know what to say. Some kid on the internet thinks he would be a good "advisor" to Sakurai. About "beta-testing". Wow.

Never once did he propose himself (in any way) as a beta-tester.

Sakurai is one of the most successful project managers in the video game industry ever. Even people who hate smash would have to acknowledge that. He knows infinitely more about "beta-testing" than you ever will.

Does that make him an expert in fighting games and fighting game balance? Again, Sheik with exploding needles.

I agree completely. I have no problem with anyone critiquing Brawl.

Funny how you say that we can't criticize him above then.

What I have a problem with is anyone saying that they could at any level have made Brawl better than Sakurai, particularly when they don't have the slightest clue about video game development at all. In reality, it was literally impossible for ANYONE to have made Brawl but Sakurai...

No one said this. They said he should've gotten better beta-testers. Stop making **** up.

Yuna , you say we have to think about this in the "brawl-to-brawl" manner, but look at the thread´s tittle.

Balance is relative. I'm not asking whether or not we think Brawl is balanced in the same way as Melee was. I'm asking if it's better balanced.

People stare at that question and immediately assume we should see if Brawl is better or worse balanced in the exact same way that Melee was balanced, like the gap between Top and Bottom and how many characters are in Top and High, etc.

But I always speak relatively. In the relative sense, is Brawl overall more Balanced than Melee? I think not.

Comboability , koability, chars that cannot combo have projectiles, slow/heavy chars have super amor moves.

A lot of chars have Super Armor moves. They're not that good, especially the ones the slow/heavy chars have.

Marth is a god among mortals here but 3 hit of Ike will make him kiss the border of your tv.

Bowser could do that too, only to a lesser extent. Guess how often he won. Strong means nothing if you're too slow to hit that often (he can't combo into strong moves, for one thing). Ike is just one who capitalizes on mistakes. High level players won't make such cataclysmic mistakes very often.

Since in this game every char is unique ending up having 2 o 3 bargain chars is inevitable, but the rest , there more than 5 or 6 characters that can stand a chance in metagame.

There are also more characters this time around. You have to think in terms of "How many percent of the cast...", not "How many characters". Also, what about the rift between the tiers? The game is not more overall balanced if twice as many characters are useless, for example.

This is true but just for 2 characters IMO , marth and olimar.

Toon Link doesn't make the cut? Why?

 

[PensFan101]

I can't really add much to the arguement here, because I'm still waiting for the game to come out, but for someone with as many posts and credibility around here Yuna, this appears to be a short-sighted comment (referring to the OP, and yes, I've read more than 4/5 of this thread).

Right now, 9/10 of the people on here are either in the dark since they haven't played Brawl, or haven't played it enough to really know. A lot of things take time, especially with a game that has the amount of intricacies that Brawl does. The pros just have to duke it out and find new techniques and what-not. For all we know, 2-3 years down the line a character like Fox could be bottom tier (unlikely I know). And, saying that the gap between tier levels is already/going to be greater is pretty pointless because we don't have tiers yet. Right now everyone is even, and all it takes is one discovery or a few good players to make a character percieved to be bad become a total monster.

My personal belief is that Brawl will be more balanced. With 35 characters, one would think (and I know this point has been beaten to death already), that eventually there will be a bigger group of upper tier characters. I also don't see how Melee was a balanced game. If only 4, maybe 5 characters counting Peach would regularly win tournaments, then how is it balanced? For me, the balance in Brawl compared to Melee has nowhere to go but up.

I guess the real point is, bring this up in a year or two, or even a few months when North America (and I'm assuming a very large portion of this forum) has played the game, and then maybe we can all have a legit debate.

 

[Thinkaman]

I'd like to throw in a bit of sentiment regarding Smash 64.

I played it Thursday night for the first time in 7 years, minus a few passing instances. I was never that great at it, and 7 years of being used to Melee didn't help. (Rolling is so different, and dude, where's my air-dodge?) However, the only thing more glaring than the rough polygons of the graphics was the horrible lack of balance. While Smash 64 was innovative and novel in allowing a very wide variety of fighting styles, it cannot be avoided that Sakurai's first smash product had poor balance, at least compared to his second.

There was one really good Smash 64 player there, certainly way better than me. However, as Kirby or Pikachu, I could go toe-to-toe or even beat him. Then, when he is Kirby, the rest of us can hardly touch him. After 7 years, forgetting all but the most very basic facts about the game, the imbalance was evident upon just watching the first match.

Meanwhile, when Melee came out I wanted to main Mewtwo. I figured good strategies would develop with his odd attack ranges and people would find good uses for his specials. When it wasn't obvious, I decided to move on and come back to him if things developed. They didn't. A fighting game is about giving the players tools to build a meta-game with, and it can obviously be tricky to predict what or how they will build. It's certainly hit-and-miss, and Mewtwo was a miss on Sakurai's part. However, at both the top and the bottom, Melee's imbalances were nowhere near as bad as 64's: it took about a week to figure out, not hours.

Then we have Brawl. With the week I spent with the game, nothing seemed as obvious as the first week I spent with Melee and Mewtwo. I was easily the best player there, playing best as Jigglypuff. (Bottom tier, BS Yuna! ) Even after playing him some I'm not ready to categorize g-dorf as "bad", his tech and mindgame potential is still, well, potential. Even Yoshi I'm a bit hesitant to categorize permanently as a bottom character... While in Melee we knew the bottom 4 characters after a week, the same amount of tiem with Brawl has yielded no such result in my eyes. My ideas at rough tier placing is vague at best.

In short, it takes a couple hours for someone to figure out a rough tier list for Smash 64. It takes a week or two of experience to get a decent one for Melee. Meanwhile, it has taken us well over a month to even get a partial consensus on just around 2-3 of Brawl's characters at the top and bottom.

(Even then, I'd like to add that many of these characters imo just have a much shallower learning curve to people coming from Melee; for everyone I played with including myself, it was wayyy easier to pick up Meta-Knight, Marth, or Toon Link than many other characters... however, whether that in any form lends itself to better character overall, I can't say one way or the other.)

 

[Thinkaman]

Yuna, I fail to see the connection between your defenses, which to be honest surprised me since I thought I was somewhat entering the argument on your side, despite disagreeing in opinion on the topic at large.

The semantics of beta-testers is not significant, obviously I doubt anyone was implying that they literally thought the game had zero testers. "Better" or "superior" was assumed.

As for people not suggesting themselves as beta-testers or advisers, I don't understand then. If someone says that he should have hired someone better and that it would be easy to do, but doesn't name or discuss anyone, I assume they must be talking about themselves. If not, who are these magical advisers and testers that make game development all sunshine and rainbows, and why didn't Sakurai or anyone else hire them in the first place?

Your exploding needles example perfectly showcases my point: The existing QA team and Sakurai are doing their jobs. No rough draft is perfect, and they clearly were able to identify mistakes and correct them. They are not perfect as you said, but their ability to revise their product over time is obviously effective.

Does that make him an expert in fighting games and fighting game balance?

I promise you that Sakurai knows vastly more about fighting games and their balance than everyone on SWF combined.

Funny how you say that we can't criticize him above then.

What? I thought I was clear, I have no problem with anyone criticizing the game, it's criticizing the way he created it, implying or arguing that you or anyone else could have done better that is ignorant beyond allowed levels.

EDIT: If you still don't understand, let me clarify with a Melee example. I can criticize the game for having Mewtwo as a rather poor character in comparison to the others, but it is unfair of me to say that Sakurai should have made Mewtwo better. It was a mistake, he obviously tried, and for me to pass judgement with my 20/20 hindsight is ridiculous. I have no proof or basis that me or anyone else could have designed a game where Mewtwo was more balanced.

EDIT2: As for whether I have played Brawl, of course I have, both localizations in fact. (Though I didn't get to play as Marth in the US version...) That question was not aimed at you Yuna; you've been a consistent source of information about the game and your experience with it to the community.

 

[Yuna]

In short, it takes a couple hours for someone to figure out a rough tier list for Smash 64. It takes a week or two of experience to get a decent one for Melee. Meanwhile, it has taken us well over a month to even get a partial consensus on just around 2-3 of Brawl's characters at the top and bottom.

People (that is, competitive players with insight into competitive gaming) were agreeing on that Marth and Toon Link looked to be really good even before the game was released.

Within a week of release, everyone agreed on that Marth and Toon Link were Top Tier material. Slightly after that, people agreed that Olimar & Pikmin should join them. This took only a week.

And how easy it is to determine a tier list does not determine its balance if the people involved do not know what to look at.

The semantics of beta-testers is not significant, obviously I doubt anyone was implying that they literally thought the game had zero testers. "Better" or "superior" was assumed.

Funny, you or whoever I quoted said in a post that someone had implied they had no beta-testers.

As for people not suggesting themselves as beta-testers or advisers, I don't understand then. If someone says that he should have hired someone better and that it would be easy to do, but doesn't name or discuss anyone, I assume they must be talking about themselves. If not, who are these magical advisers and testers that make game development all sunshine and rainbows, and why didn't Sakurai or anyone else hire them in the first place?

Because not everything has to be spelled out for you?

And your assumptions =/= fact

"They should've gotten better beta-testers" = "There are better beta-testers out there than the ones they had"

Who is he talking about? Peple in the business who are better? The Japanese top Smashers?

Your exploding needles example perfectly showcases my point: The existing QA team and Sakurai are doing their jobs. No rough draft is perfect, and they clearly were able to identify mistakes and correct them. They are not perfect as you said, but their ability to revise their product over time is obviously effective.

It doesn't change the fact that they originally though Sheik should have had exploding needles, which means they're not that competent at balancing the game. And even after nerfing those things, Sheik still single-handedly renders a good part of the cast unplayable in NTSC. Good job, Sakurai!

Good beta-testers would've discovered her chaingrab.

I promise you that Sakurai knows vastly more about fighting games and their balance than everyone on SWF combined.

Is that why Marth was left pretty much the same while Fox, Falco, Sheik and Peach were nerfed quite a lot, very badly or into infinity? Is that why Marth and Toon Link got 1 Hit KO:ers (at 0%!) that can be comboed into while Lucario's will never hit anyone?

Is that why they they removed L-canceling and then made Ganondorf's aerials lag even more? Trust me, they do not know everything, especially not more about everyone on SWF combined if we ignore the opinions of those with no insight into balance and competitive fighting games.

What? I thought I was clear, I have no problem with anyone criticizing the game, it's criticizing the way he created it, implying or arguing that you or anyone else could have done better that is ignorant beyond allowed levels.

Why is that? Because to you he's God? We're free to criticize the way he created it... because there are plenty of things to criticize.

EDIT: If you still don't understand, let me clarify with a Melee example. I can criticize the game for having Mewtwo as a rather poor character in comparison to the others, but it is unfair of me to say that Sakurai should have made Mewtwo better. It was a mistake, he obviously tried, and for me to pass judgement with my 20/20 hindsight is ridiculous. I have no proof or basis that me or anyone else could have designed a game where Mewtwo was more balanced.

If he's so perfect and better than SWF combined, shouldn't he have been able to see all of these things I've personally observed without any help? Such glaring balancing mistakes?

He's, after all, better than me and everyone on SWF combined. And why can we not criticize him for this and that? He's just a human being. We're not saying he sucks as a human being. We're simply saying he's not perfect.

 

[Samochan]

I promise you that Sakurai knows vastly more about fighting games and their balance than everyone on SWF combined.

You know, that's a big thing to claim. How are you gonna prove it? >_> Yea...


Oh and how do we know the beta tester could've been better? They missed out that tether recoveries get owned by ledgehog. That's why. That's a really big and too obvious thing to miss. >_>

 

[Thinkaman]

In case you missed the edit: As for whether I have played Brawl, of course I have, both localizations in fact. (Though I didn't get to play as Marth in the US version...) That question was not aimed at you Yuna; you've been a consistent source of information about the game and your experience with it to the community.

As for who people agreed would be top material, I think you are being slightly selective. Yes, Marth, Olimar, and Toon were quickly recognized as potential top characters. So were Pit, Wolf, Meta-Knight, and most of all Diddy. I also still think your judgment on my dear Jiggs is misinformed. :D

However, the bigger point at large is that we can't say for sure yet. In 64, months of play will confirm what you realized in the first couple matches. In Melee, raise your hand if you thought Roy might be a better character than Marth the very first time you played him? Zelda good as well? Possibly over-estimate IC or some other characters? Falco seem clumsy? First impressions were much more often wrong in Melee, but like 64, months of play will confirm what you eventually learned in the first few weeks.

The point is, we can't say how fast we got the right answer or close to it when we don't actually know what that answer is yet.

 

[Thinkaman]

You know, that's a big thing to claim. How are you gonna prove it? >_> Yea...

I'm pretty sure that collectively, SWF has zero real-world experience designing fighting games, with a total of zero titles published that have attained zero sales to boot.

It'd be one thing if Sakurai had made some random game, and perhaps someone on this board could turn out to make a better one by chance. But Sakurai is an extremely successful veteran with experience making multiple games, whose acclaim and success is hailed constantly by everyone who appreciates Melee, whether they mean it or not.

Oh and how do we know the beta tester could've been better? They missed out that tether recoveries get owned by ledgehog. That's why. That's a really big and too obvious thing to miss. >_>

You think they missed this, are you kidding me? This screams intentional, why do you think Zamus has an oddly assigned third jump?

EDIT: I mean, really now, that's like saying that slow characters are unbalanced because they usually have higher knockback. "WTF what did they think they were doing, giving all the strong attacks to certain characters?!?"

 

[Yuna]

As for who people agreed would be top material, I think you are being slightly selective. Yes, Marth, Olimar, and Toon were quickly recognized as potential top characters. So were Pit, Wolf, Meta-Knight, and most of all Diddy. I also still think your judgment on my dear Jiggs is misinformed. :D

Toon Link, Marth and Olimar were singled out as Top Tier (above the rest) within a week. After two weeks, pretty muc everyone who'd played the game and knew what they were talking about agreed. It did not take a month.

Jiggz has been moved to "Blah-tier" from "Bottom Tier", FYI. She's not good enough for Great Tier, however.

However, the bigger point at large is that we can't say for sure yet. In 64, months of play will confirm what you realized in the first couple matches. In Melee, raise your hand if you thought Roy might be a better character than Marth the very first time you played him? Zelda good as well? Possibly over-estimate IC or some other characters? Falco seem clumsy? First impressions were much more often wrong in Melee, but like 64, months of play will confirm what you eventually learned in the first few weeks.

Did you know as much as you know today about Smash, competitive gaming, game balance, etc. the first time you played Melee?

EDIT: I mean, really now, that's like saying that slow characters are unbalanced because they usually have higher knockback. "WTF what did they think they were doing, giving all the strong attacks to certain characters?!?"

They missed just to what extent tethers are gimped.

 

[Samochan]

I'm pretty sure that collectively, SWF has zero real-world experience designing fighting games, with a total of zero titles published that have attained zero sales to boot.

>_>

I promise you that Sakurai knows vastly more about fighting games and their balance than everyone on SWF combined.

You know that just knowning and designing a game are vastly different things correct?

You think they missed this, are you kidding me? This screams intentional, why do you think Zamus has an oddly assigned third jump?

If it's intentional, it is very dumb. Royally screwing over Olimar and Ivysaur cause of this, not to mention tons of stages being unplayable cause of tether recovery mechanics (skyworld anyone? along with other stages with bugs on tether recoveries)

 

[Yuna]

What Samochan said.

We don't know how to design a game. We still know what balance is and had he assembled a team of 20 good Smashers with insight into competitive play, balance and videogames in general (not saying I should've been one of them), trust me, Brawl would've been much more balanced.

You know Simon Cowell? Good man, knows what the music industry wants, knows what good singing. But can he sing? No.

 

[Thinkaman]

They missed just to what extent tethers are gimped.

...wait, but you were just sayign that Olimar is top-tier......... I honestly don't understand what you are saying.

Only Olimar and Ivysaur are forced to use tether recoveries, and no one is crying for either of them. Olimar is great in every other regard possible, and Ivysaur has many redeeming factors of his own... not the least being that down-B suddenly grants you some of the best recovery in the game, especially for the weight.

You know that just knowning and designing a game are vastly different things correct?

I don't think Street Fighter trivia relates to the topic at hand. If you thought that's what I meant, I apologize.

If it's intentional, it is very dumb. Royally screwing over Olimar and Ivysaur cause of this

Read above. As if anyone is going to sing Olimar a song of pity!

...not to mention tons of stages being unplayable cause of tether recovery mechanics (skyworld anyone? along with other stages with bugs on tether recoveries)

1. The word you are looking for is counter-pick, and the only character who is absolutely forced to use their tether is Olimar... who again, everyone seems to think is extremely good regardless.

2. Stages with bugs? The only thing I can think of at all is Electroplankton, am I missing something?

 

[Thinkaman]

We don't know how to design a game. We still know what balance is and had he assembled a team of 20 good Smashers with insight into competitive play, balance and videogames in general (not saying I should've been one of them), trust me, Brawl would've been much more balanced.

I still disagree.

EDIT: Doh, got distracted answering the second half and left this totally unfinished like a moron.

I'm not sure that competitive players would have provided any more additional input than the testers already did. your exploding needle example was perfect, really. We would likely have asked him to change the needles just like they did.

And guess what?

Shiek would still be overpowered after that, just like with their testers. Remember, the Grandia team played an extremely large amount of Melee, in addition to being good game designers themselves. The idea that we could provide input in any way better than them is questionable at best.

you have got to get out of this hindsight mentality. The game is worked on up until the last minute, and we only see the end product. It isn't like this game with the current balance was sittign around for a month and no one changed it.

You know Simon Cowell? Good man, knows what the music industry wants, knows what good singing. But can he sing? No.

This is a great example that actually is what I am trying to get at. Sakurai knows how to design a game, he knows what good gameplay and balance is. But can he play well, or does he need people who can play well telling him what to do? No more than Simon Cowell needs American Idol winners telling him what sounds good!

(And actually Sakurai can play very well, but that's another story for another time.)

 

[Yuna]

...wait, but you were just sayign that Olimar is top-tier......... I honestly don't understand what you are saying.

Olimar is not the only one with a tether recovery. Zamus is also vulnerable during that awkward 3rd jump.

Only Olimar and Ivysaur are forced to use tether recoveries, and no one is crying for either of them. Olimar is great in every other regard possible, and Ivysaur has many redeeming factors of his own... not the least being that down-B suddenly grants you some of the best recovery in the game, especially for the weight.

Ivysaur still gets gimped and he's far from Top Tier. To gimp him this much is to destroy him as a playable character one he's off-screen. But tether-recoveries are also far from the worst balancing issues of the game. I was just corroborating what Samochan said.

1. The word you are looking for is counter-pick, and the only character who is absolutely forced to use their tether is Olimar... who again, everyone seems to think is extremely good regardless.

So the solution is... "Don't play as a character with a tether recovery"? That's the "counter-picking" you're referring to?

Because even with their little tricks to gain height, they're still gimped and quite vulnerable.

This is a great example that actually is what I am trying to get at. Sakurai knows how to design a game, he knows what good gameplay and balance is. But can he play well, or does he need people who can play well telling him what to do? No more than Simon Cowell needs American Idol winners telling him what sounds good!

If Sakurai's so good, how come there are so many glaring balancing issues which were evident after only a week of playing when he had years to design the game?

 

[Crizthakidd]

but dude theres a reason falco was nurfed and pika/kirby were buffed.

if its not balanced at least the team was trying to make it so

 

[Yuna]

but dude theres a reason falco was nurfed and pika/kirby were buffed.

if its not balanced at least the team was trying to make it so

Trying to do something =/= Succeeding in doing so

 

[Samochan]

...wait, but you were just sayign that Olimar is top-tier......... I honestly don't understand what you are saying.

Only Olimar and Ivysaur are forced to use tether recoveries, and no one is crying for either of them. Olimar is great in every other regard possible, and Ivysaur has many redeeming factors of his own... not the least being that down-B suddenly grants you some of the best recovery in the game, especially for the weight.

Actually, lots of people cries out for that. >_> And btw, I wonder how a random dude would react when their tether recovery is suddenly gimped over and over again and he doesn't now what to do about it? I doubt Sakurai had that in mind when he tried to balance characters... I understand C.Falcon on ssbm, but this recovery gimping is just ridiculously dumb.

Oh and you cannot use pokemon switch while off stage. So doesn't work that way, sorry.

I don't think Street Fighter trivia relates to the topic at hand. If you thought that's what I meant, I apologize.

I promise you that Sakurai knows vastly more about fighting games and their balance than everyone on SWF combined.

Oh it definitely relates, cause you were talking about fightning games knowledge in general. And it's not about just plain trivia, but knowledge how games work. >_>

1. The word you are looking for is counter-pick, and the only character who is absolutely forced to use their tether is Olimar... who again, everyone seems to think is extremely good regardless.

So Sakurai intentionally made Olimar better than most of the cast and intentionally gimped his recovery with the fact in mind that Olimar was better, while still trying to balance the game? Now that's just absurd.

 

[Thinkaman]

Olimar is not the only one with a tether recovery. Zamus is also vulnerable during that awkward 3rd jump.

And this is not by design? Her 3rd jump's spike makes edge-hogging her questionable in the first place.

Ivysaur still gets gimped and he's far from Top Tier. To gimp him this much is to destroy him as a playable character one he's off-screen.

Again, not by design? Ivysaur impressed me, much to my surprise, and given that his two partners have good and amazing recovery respectively...

So the solution is... "Don't play as a character with a tether recovery"? That's the "counter-picking" you're referring to?

What? It's a counter-pick stage. Skyworld is a counter-pick stage against Olimar, simple enough.

Because even with their little tricks to gain height, they're still gimped and quite vulnerable.

Is Olimar gimped or top-tier?

If Sakurai's so good, how come there are so many glaring balancing issues which were evident after only a week of playing when he had years to design the game?

Agian, HINDSIGHT MENTALITY. Same reason there are bugs in Windows or any other software, even after years of design. They fix as much as they can, but they have to release it sometime! Again with your exploding needles example: they did what they could, and they seemed to have done a good job with that.

Once again, the game wasn't in it's current form until the very end. Wasn't Ike said to be "unplayable" at E4All?

 

[Thinkaman]

Actually, lots of people cries out for that. >_> And btw, I wonder how a random dude would react when their tether recovery is suddenly gimped over and over again and he doesn't now what to do about it? I doubt Sakurai had that in mind when he tried to balance characters... I understand C.Falcon on ssbm, but this recovery gimping is just ridiculously dumb.

Characters have different recoveries. Some are really good, some are really bad. Just like everything else in the entire game. Ivysaur has the worst recovery in the game, but has great projectile, excellent power and range for his speed, and the ability to turn into two other movesets, one of which has amazing recovery. Olimar has the second worst recovery in the game, but is otherwise a really good character that many are calling "top-tier".

Fox and Falco had horrible, though not quite as bad recovery in Melee. No one cried for them.

Oh and you cannot use pokemon switch while off stage. So doesn't work that way, sorry.

I actually spent most my time with the American version playing PT, so that's vaguely insulting... If you don't switch to Charizard at high percents, you are accepting the risk of Ivysaur.

Oh it definitely relates, cause you were talking about fightning games knowledge in general. And it's not about just plain trivia, but knowledge how games work. >_>

Well, I'd say Sakurai has a very deep understanding of fighting game mechanics. I mean, he designed three of them.

So Sakurai intentionally made Olimar better than most of the cast and intentionally gimped his recovery with the fact in mind that Olimar was better, while still trying to balance the game? Now that's just absurd.

What? Absurd? Are you being sarcastic? Honestly, I don't know what to say to this. Of course he made Olimar good and have horrible recovery...

That is what balance means!

 

[Yuna]

And this is not by design? Her 3rd jump's spike makes edge-hogging her questionable in the first place.

Yes, it's by design. But it's a horrible design.

Again, not by design? Ivysaur impressed me, much to my surprise, and given that his two partners have good and amazing recovery respectively...

So the lesson here is to never be Ivysaur when you get hit off the stage?

What? It's a counter-pick stage. Skyworld is a counter-pick stage against Olimar, simple enough.

All stages are counterpick stages against Olimar because of hi tether recovery! Skyworld has to be banned because it kills everyone who has a tether-only recovery once they're off stage. Destroy the platforms, destroy all chance of recovery unless they manage to make it back without Up B (during which time they're vulnerable for edgeguarding).

It's just too good a counterpick.

Is Olimar gimped or top-tier?

You can be Top Tier and still have a very gimped recovery. Falco, anyone?

Agian, HINDSIGHT MENTALITY. Same reason there are bugs in Windows or any other software, even after years of design. They fix as much as they can, but they have to release it sometime! Again with your exploding needles example: they did what they could, and they seemed to have done a good job with that.

You claim Sakurai knows more than Smashboards combined! He had years with the game! We've had less than a month and most of the imbalance issues were obvious from the first week!

If Sakurai's so friggin' good, he should've seen these things! The fact that he didn't proves he isn't so almost-perfect, the way you claim he is! If he's so friggin' good at balancing, he should've noticed these things without hindsight!

Once again, the game wasn't in it's current form until the very end. Wasn't Ike said to be "unplayable" at E4All?

Because not many played at E4All? And very few good people played the game there? And it's not like you got to play the game that much back then?

Nothing's changed in Ike since then. We have discovered anything new about him (that I know of) except that apparently, back then, Super Armor also meant taking no damage (which means he's worse now). Ike's just "better" 'cause we've discovered more things about the game.

And it does not matter. If Sakurai's better than all of SWF combined, he had years to make the game a balanced game, yet it isn't. For reasons a good 20 of us could pinpoint without a week. Sakurai's not perfect or even amazing. He's just human. He's really good at what he does but he makes mistakes as well.

Stop being such a Sakurai-fanboy and wake up and smell the imbalance.

Characters have different recoveries. Some are really good, some are really bad. Just like everything else in the entire game. Ivysaur has the worst recovery in the game, but has great projectile, excellent power and range for his speed, and the ability to turn into two other movesets, one of which has amazing recovery. Olimar has the second worst recovery in the game, but is otherwise a really good character that many are calling "top-tier".

It still doesn't change the fact that if Ivysaur gets smashed off the stage, he's easily gimped.

Fox and Falco had horrible, though not quite as bad recovery in Melee. No one cried for them.

Because they weren't as easily gimped.

I actually spent most my time with the American version playing PT, so that's vaguely insulting... If you don't switch to Charizard at high percents, you are accepting the risk of Ivysaur.

You cannot switch while getting comboed. It does not even have to be high percents. As long as they get you off the stage and edgeguard you, gimpage.

Well, I'd say Sakurai has a very deep understanding of fighting game mechanics. I mean, he designed three of them.

Someone designed Turtles Tournament Fighter too, doesn't mean it doesn't suck.

Sakurai can design as many fighting games as he wants. It doesn't mean they're perfect. And we know they aren't.

What? Absurd? Are you being sarcastic? Honestly, I don't know what to say to this. Of course he made Olimar good and have horrible recovery...

They did well there. But how come Marth and Toon Link are amazing and have a good to great recoveries? How come Yoshi sucks in all respect?

He's not perfect. When will you understand that?! He made a whole slew of mistakes.

No one's saying he's bad or sucks. You're talking about him as if he's perfect or almost-perfect and that no one could possibly do better, even if we amassed the collective knowledge of SWF (which is absurd).

 

[Serpit]

Because not many played at E4All? And very few good people played the game there? And it's not like you got to play the game that much back then?

Nothing's changed in Ike since then. We have discovered anything new about him (that I know of) except that apparently, back then, Super Armor also meant taking no damage (which means he's worse now). Ike's just "better" 'cause we've discovered more things about the game.

Excuse my ignorance, but wasn't Ike reportedly changed from his E4All incarnation? If that was confirmed to be wrong then excuse me, but I have heard multiple times that Ike at E4All was even slower and stronger than he is now.

Also, the E4All argument seems pretty moot now- Reportedly Metaknight, Mario and Peach were extremely dominant and supposed to be High/Top Tier, but right now the all seem rather mediocre or maybe above average.

Side Question, Yuna: Who's your current Brawl main? I'm just curious. When we played at Epita you were Peach, but you don't seem to like her that much anymore. Truth to be told, neither do I >_>

 

[Yuna]

Excuse my ignorance, but wasn't Ike reportedly changed from his E4All incarnation? If that was confirmed to be wrong then excuse me, but I have heard multiple times that Ike at E4All was even slower and stronger than he is now.

Also, the E4All argument seems pretty moot now- Reportedly Metaknight, Mario and Peach were extremely dominant and supposed to be High/Top Tier, but right now the all seem rather mediocre or maybe above average.

Remember what else people could do at E4All? L-cancel! And a lot of other things. I don't remember exactly but I think jump-canceling and CC:ing was in there.

I don't know, I didn't really pay that much attention to what went on at E4All, maybe Ike was changed. But a lot of other things were changed (to the detriment of the game, IMO) too. So Sakurai didn't do everything right there, either.

A lot of these things were later removed, which shifted the tiers.

Side Question, Yuna: Who's your current Brawl main? I'm just curious. When we played at Epita you were Peach, but you don't seem to like her that much anymore. Truth to be told, neither do I >_>

Toon Link (because Dark Toon Link is too smexy, I picked him before hearing about how good he is), Pit (because he's smexy too), to an extent Marth (when I just want to tierwhore and win easily). Zelda is also very smexy, especially Black Zelda.

Those are the characters I play the most.

 

[Samochan]

Characters have different recoveries. Some are really good, some are really bad. Just like everything else in the entire game. Ivysaur has the worst recovery in the game, but has great projectile, excellent power and range for his speed, and the ability to turn into two other movesets, one of which has amazing recovery. Olimar has the second worst recovery in the game, but is otherwise a really good character that many are calling "top-tier".

Fox and Falco had horrible, though not quite as bad recovery in Melee. No one cried for them.

Olimar's recovery wouldn't be bad if not for the simple fact it can be edgehogged. Without that, his recovery wouldn't be that bad. Sweetspotting for afar if he has many pikmins is not a bad recovery.

Oh and only falco had a bad recovery due to it's lenght, but otherwise phantasm was quite quick and can meteor people if they're not careful, plus has invincibility frames on some parts that can clank or he goes trough edgeguarder's attack. On NTSC version fox's firefox recovery lenght is ridiculous and it's very versatile. It's not on par with pikachu's recovery, but definitely not nearly as bad as Falcon's recovery. Sure ganondorf for example can come from distances, but fox can actually mix up which is really important. Ledgetech to invulnerability forward b to sweetspot is quite handy as well. And to note, not every character can edgeguard fox as well as Marth and sheik can. Even peach has loads of troubles if fox recovers from high. If fox had that bad recovery, he wouldn't be the best character in the game.

I actually spent most my time with the American version playing PT, so that's vaguely insulting... If you don't switch to Charizard at high percents, you are accepting the risk of Ivysaur.

So you're saying we should always, regardless of the circumstances at hand, switch to charizard/squirtle while being at higher%, just to avoid getting possibly gimped when recovering? >_> It doesn't really work that way.

Well, I'd say Sakurai has a very deep understanding of fighting game mechanics. I mean, he designed three of them.

3 games which are all from the same series and thus, quite the same mechanics. Yet they are all vastly different from the other fightning games like SF, Tekken, GG... and all of Sakurai's games are suffering from balance issues, regardless of how small or big the roster is. So with the intention of making his games balanced, he doesn't seem to have succeeded with his goal thus far. Nerfing Peach and jiggs to oblivion while actually buffing Marth? >_>

What? Absurd? Are you being sarcastic? Honestly, I don't know what to say to this. Of course he made Olimar good and have horrible recovery...

That is what balance means!

It's balance to make Olimar very good and gimp his recovery while making Ivysaur and ZSS not that good and gimp them intentionally as well? While characters that are better than Olimar are left untouched? I don't see how that's Sakurai's intention of trying to balance the game. Also, didn't Sakurai want to lower the gap between new players and those that have dedicated themselves to this game? This tether recovery gimping is just gonna make the gap bigger, how is mister nobody gonna know what will happen to his tether recovery when someone edgehogs him.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

Remember what else people could do at E4All? L-cancel! And a lot of other things. I don't remember exactly but I think jump-canceling and CC:ing was in there.

I don't know, I didn't really pay that much attention to what went on at E4All, maybe Ike was changed. But a lot of other things were changed (to the detriment of the game, IMO) too. So Sakurai didn't do everything right there, either.

A lot of these things were later removed, which shifted the tiers.

Ike received major buffs after E4All. Most importantly, he doesn't have any "invisible" start up time. At E4All, you would press a button, and the startup animation would only come out half a second later. So even fast moves like quick draw and jab were useless, because he would just get ***** before they came out.

Also, now that people have more time with the game, they learned Ike's hitboxes and spacing, and thus he can be used more effectively.

No, you can't, because he never owed you anything in the first place. No one said you can't have opinions on the game and how it compares to others.

What is "silly" is the notion that this game did not have beta-testers or that Sakurai was somehow unconcerned with the balance of the game.

Where did I say Sakurai "owed" me anything? I am freaking reviewing a game in a way. I am pointing out some of its flaws (some; Yuna does a lot more of that). I have an opinion which I back up with facts about the game.

You're saying I can have an opinion about Brawl, but it has to be positive? What is this, a dictatorship?

Lastly, I never proclaimed that Sakurai was not concerned about balance or that the game didn't have beta testers. It's just that, apparently, they didn't do a great job in balancing the game.

 

[Yuna]

Then they balanced Ike. Yet they missed a whole bunch of other things. In other words, Sakurai's not perfect. If Sakurai were really that good at balancing that not even out collective powers could do better, then Brawl would be as balanced as Guilty Gear XX (any of them).

 

[Sliq]

I don't really understand. You're asking people to make a judgment on something they don't have the information on; it's not a cop out, it's an admission of ignorance (which is not inherently a bad thing).

The competitive scene hasn't even opened up yet for Brawl, whereas Melee has had six years to mature. When it comes to "game balance", you need that kind of exposure to sift through the assumptions and guesswork. Heck, I know most of you remember what kind of assumptions were made in the early days of Melee; people were claiming Ganondorf was broken and Marth was barely a blip on the radar.

I mean, we could sit here and argue what we've seen of Brawl and compare it to something like Melee, but only one side of that argument has any substance beyond simple speculation. Speculation is fine and dandy, but it isn't going to lead us to any truths about where the games stand in relation to each other.

Point being, arguments that are made today are not going to hold any weight when they're not drawn from logical conclusion; logic is pretty good at letting you know when you don't have the right information to finish your equation. People are pretty good at making that mistake, but I don't think it was any great aspiration to be the guy that claimed he was certain that the Sun revolved around the Earth.

As long as people understand that, speculate away. Just don't get ahead of yourself in debating the aspects you "know" instead of what you're hypothesizing.

The thing is, if you don't know what you are talking about, don't talk about it. Let people who do know what they are talking about talk about it.

Just replace Sukari with President Bush and it's the same argument, except with a larger impact on the world and a lot more failure.

Thinkaman, yo' *** is blocked because I'm tired of your rampant fanbyoism.

 

[Phlemingo]

I could see many ways Brawl is more balanced than in Melee. I've noticed that shields break faster than in Brawl and in Brawl shields slide much easier, so therefore people won't be punished as easily for performing slow and powerful attacks. Brawls shield system It also prevents people from abusing shields.

 

[Ryuker]

I like to point out that besides creating balanced moves sakurai also had the job of making every chars moves believable and suit the char. I agree that it is atleast strange that no one of swf got to beta test the game but it is true that good players aren't always the best beta testers. Besides that beta testers also have to look at other stuff in game besides the balance. And sakurai seems to have the approach of attempting to get the game balance right by not letting anyone interfere with it.

Regarding tether recovery's it's just intentional. Chars have extra jumpslike ZSS or ivysaur has a projectile to hit them of and his fair also has decent range to knock them off. Since it sweetspots you can grab the edge immidiatly after someone leaves the edge or is knocked of it. These chars also have the ability of edge hogging while not hanging on the edge so they can actually turn this into there favor. I don't consider this a flaw at all.

A lot of attempts have been made to prevent stalling as well. You can't infinite stall with tether recovery's for example since it doesn't grab the edge after 4 times ( unless you touch the ground). You also can't continuously ledge grab cause there's a delay ( but sometimes you seem to be able to jump off it really soo so they might have coded the game to recognize it).

I guess it was unavoidable. Chars with tethers have insane recovery if it wasn't for the edge hog mechanic. They had to balance that somehow.

It's also retarted just saying sakurai failed or say he did a bad job. This game is huge, has a huge amount of features and the design job for the game is just enormous. Please remember that everything you want to have in your game has to be written down and documented. Sakurai has tons of documents detailing every move in this game ( up to each keyframe). Besides that it's a huge team to run. The scope of this project is out of proportion to many other games. I was actually very relieved to see he put's so much attention into this and didn't just stumble on a great game with melee by accident.

So you have to consider sakurai had a job of making a game that he wanted to be even easier to learn and suitable for a non competitive crowd and at the same time make sure each char had depth and unique ness to them for a hardcore crowd. That's a incredibly complex job and I have huge amounts of respect for him pulling it off. He seems to have a great sense of what realism you want and what you want to alter to suit the character.

It's also just impossible to find all mistakes for games like these in the development process. You run a extremely tight schedule and before reaching the gameplay we have now a huge amount of bugs enter your game. Bugs that crash the game, bugs that make chars suddenly shift in a vertical direction so on. Chars have to be send back from animation cause the modellers made a mistake. I've been looking at the trophy's for example and I can already find of lot of hasty things and bad textures on the chars in the game or the environment as well. It just shows the extreme time limits they had for this project.

Yet after you achieve the goal and have this 60 fps consistent game (awesome for the amound of action going on) then still players you show the game to the first time will stumble on a mistake in the first minute. Something like this happened to me when we worked on our game for school last block. We ensured no one could traver over the house at the beginning of the level. Yet I showed it to Faab and he jump against it and immidiatly just rode the house till the top to get behind it. After that he asked me why I didn't put a secret there. I said I didn't think you would get passed it. I had to consider so many other stuff for the game that I just didn't come up with it. Now multiply this by I don't even know how much and you get a idea of what sakurai managed to achieve.

I think if swf beta tested this game they might not even have allowed the game to be very different of melee since we are so used to it. I wouldn't have done it this way if I had to design this game but I think sakurai came up with stuff I didn't think was possible ( introduction of gliding for example which everyone would have agreed against cause of the easy recovery because it would be too good in melee)

This is getting way to offtopic it was supposed to be a debate about more balance then melee or not and it's turning into a sakurai didn't balance it very well debate which is besides the point. The only thing you should consider is what was melee's balance( we have a tier list for that obviously) and is brawl going to have the same devision on the tier list as melee did ( so a pretty low number which is top tier). Right now I see no evidence of 1 char being absolutely top tier so getting a decent tier list for this game seems to be harder then for melee right now. This is just my opinion of course but if anyone can point out a clear top 4 right now that ***** more then half of the rest of the cast then please rise up.

 

[Yuna]

I could see many ways Brawl is more balanced than in Melee. I've noticed that shields break faster than in Brawl and in Brawl shields slide much easier, so therefore people won't be punished as easily for performing slow and powerful attacks. Brawls shield system It also prevents people from abusing shields.

Shields break faster but there's not really much we can do pressure shields anymore. So it all balances out.

Powershielding is much easier. If people perform slow and powerful attacks, they'll get powershielded (no shieldstun and not shieldknockback!). Brawl's shield system promotes shield abuse.

 

[Me14k]

Brawl should be more balanced out in competitive play because 1. it is easier to pick up and because of this 2. plaiyng more characters will be easier and because of this 3. its harder to counter people with chars and levels.

Shields break faster but there's not really much we can do pressure shields anymore. So it all balances out.

Powershielding is much easier. If people perform slow and powerful attacks, they'll get powershielded (no shieldstun and not shieldknockback!). Brawl's shield system promotes shield abuse.

On the thought of sheilds:

Power shielding was very easy to do in melee and it had a use. Brawl's powersheilding dosnt reflect..honestly the only good point about it (i know it reduces lag). The point on reducing sheild stun doesnt mean anything considering sheild stun is alomst nonexistent in brawl.

And on the thought of sheilds owning slow and powerful attacks.....dont attack a shield with a slow, laggy attack....attack with something quick or something that will poke through.

 

[Ryuker]

Shields break faster but there's not really much we can do pressure shields anymore. So it all balances out.

Powershielding is much easier. If people perform slow and powerful attacks, they'll get powershielded (no shieldstun and not shieldknockback!). Brawl's shield system promotes shield abuse.

It alos provides a way for char which are not necessarily offensive chars to approach cause they can shield and counter attack after it. You could say it could also stimulate more offence or approaching offensive defensive.

 

[Yuna]

I like to point out that besides creating balanced moves sakurai also had the job of making every chars moves believable and suit the char. I agree that it is atleast strange that no one of swf got to beta test the game but it is true that good players aren't always the best beta testers. Besides that beta testers also have to look at other stuff in game besides the balance. And sakurai seems to have the approach of attempting to get the game balance right by not letting anyone interfere with it.

How about the people who knows the most about competitive fighters and game balance?

Sakurai doesn't let many people interfere. That's why NTSC-Sheik existed in Melee.

Regarding tether recovery's it's just intentional. Chars have extra jumpslike ZSS or ivysaur has a projectile to hit them of and his fair also has decent range to knock them off. Since it sweetspots you can grab the edge immidiatly after someone leaves the edge or is knocked of it. These chars also have the ability of edge hogging while not hanging on the edge so they can actually turn this into there favor. I don't consider this a flaw at all.

Every heard of edgehugging? Not hard to do. Time it well. Ivysaur won't be able to projectile you and recover.

A lot of attempts have been made to prevent stalling as well. You can't infinite stall with tether recovery's for example since it doesn't grab the edge after 4 times ( unless you touch the ground). You also can't continuously ledge grab cause there's a delay ( but sometimes you seem to be able to jump off it really soo so they might have coded the game to recognize it).

Is it balanced that tethers are punished more for ledgestalling? Is it balanced that even if you grab the ledge, if they hit you off it again 4 times, you can't recover anymore?

I guess it was unavoidable. Chars with tethers have insane recovery if it wasn't for the edge hog mechanic. They had to balance that somehow.

How is it so much more insane than any other character? Good? Sure. Insane? Hardly. Almost all recoveries auto-sweetspots now. Most people's recoveries have also been generally boosted. Tethers, not that much better.

It's also retarted just saying sakurai failed or say he did a bad job. This game is huge, has a huge amount of features and the design job for the game is just enormous. Please remember that everything you want to have in your game has to be written down and documented. Sakurai has tons of documents detailing every move in this game ( up to each keyframe). Besides that it's a huge team to run. The scope of this project is out of proportion to many other games. I was actually very relieved to see he put's so much attention into this and didn't just stumble on a great game with melee by accident.

No one said he failed. Or that he did a cataclysmically bad job.

But it's far from perfect. And if he put so much time and attention into it, why did so much slip under the radar? Obviously he's not the epitome of game making you think he is.

He's a great game maker. But far from perfect.

So you have to consider sakurai had a job of making a game that he wanted to be even easier to learn and suitable for a non competitive crowd and at the same time make sure each char had depth and unique ness to them for a hardcore crowd. That's a incredibly complex job and I have huge amounts of respect for him pulling it off. He seems to have a great sense of what realism you want and what you want to alter to suit the character.

We're judging it from a competitive angle.

Also, even casuals will eventually wise up to the imbalance of certain things. It's called having a brain.

Stuff.

Whatever.

 

[Yuna]

It alos provides a way for char which are not necessarily offensive chars to approach cause they can shield and counter attack after it. You could say it could also stimulate more offence or approaching offensive defensive.

No they can't. Less shieldstun = Let go of the shield and attack back.

Only characters with little lag on their attacks or a lot of aerial mobility (they can move back afterwards) can approach well.

The game does not promote offense, it promotes turtling. Approach has been generally gimped.

 

[Yuna]

Brawl should be more balanced out in competitive play because 1. it is easier to pick up and because of this 2. plaiyng more characters will be easier and because of this 3. its harder to counter people with chars and levels.

Unconfirmed assumptions.

Also:
1. Easy to pick the game up =/= Balance
2. Playing more characters will be easier =/= Unconfirmed assumption
3. Harder to counter-pick =/= What made you think this?

Power shielding was very easy to do in melee and it had a use. Brawl's powersheilding dosnt reflect..honestly the only good point about it (i know it reduces lag). The point on reducing sheild stun doesnt mean anything considering sheild stun is alomst nonexistent in brawl.

Powershielding projectiles from far away was easy. Close up, it was harder. Much harder. Do you know the frame data? Powershielding has a window of 3 frames! That's 1/20th of a second! You have to time it to 1/20th of a second to PS. Otherwise, you'll either get hit or simply shield it normally.

The frame window is greatly expanded for Brawl. No frame data released yet, though. Brawl's PS:ing doesn't reflect projectiles/items. Yes, this is a big thing. But an even bigger thing is that while PS:ing in Melee gave you more shieldknockback, PS:ing in Brawl gives you none. It also gives you zero shieldstun.

PS:ing any attack = Free punisher. Now that it's also much easier to do, approaching with slow attacks = Asking to die.

Shieldstun is much less than in Melee. Doesn't mean that some moves are still safe... unless they get PS:ed. Smashes will also knock you too far back to punish if shielded... but not if PS:ed.

And on the thought of sheilds owning slow and powerful attacks.....dont attack a shield with a slow, laggy attack....attack with something quick or something that will poke through.

This basically saying "Never use slow and powerful attacks"? Because slow attacks cannot be comboed into. Nor are they very reliable edgeguards (airdodges). Some can be used for approach. They don't even have to be that slow. You can just predict the move and time your shielding.

Even quick things can be PS:ed.

 

[Ryuker]

How about the people who knows the most about competitive fighters and game balance?

Sakurai doesn't let many people interfere. That's why NTSC-Sheik existed in Melee.

Yes and there are pro's and con's to this. It's his way of working and I'm not saying it is the best way. But it is remarkable he came up with most of it himself.

Every heard of edgehugging? Not hard to do. Time it well. Ivysaur won't be able to projectile you and recover.

So time a good edge hog and marth can't recover as well with up b I don't get why it makes tethers worse or make this a design mistake.

Is it balanced that tethers are punished more for ledgestalling? Is it balanced that even if you grab the ledge, if they hit you off it again 4 times, you can't recover anymore?

Yes it's to prevent stalling. He obviously doesn't promote this and it's the only way to get rid of this. Your just being edge guarded well enough if he manages to prevent you from coming back after 4 tries. Is it balanced that marth can run of the stage and up b fox which kills him immediatly? I find 4 times a pretty good number since you get 4 **** tries of getting it right. Also I'm sorry I'm not too sure if you had to grab the ledge or touch the ground it could be grabbing the ledge grants you the 4 tries you get back again.

How is it so much more insane than any other character? Good? Sure. Insane? Hardly. Almost all recoveries auto-sweetspots now. Most people's recoveries have also been generally boosted. Tethers, not that much better.

It reaches from pretty **** low in comparison to a lot of chars. I'm not saying it's broken but if they would always get the edge from these angles edge guarding them is near impossible.

No one said he failed. Or that he did a cataclysmically bad job.

But it's far from perfect. And if he put so much time and attention into it, why did so much slip under the radar? Obviously he's not the epitome of game making you think he is.

He's a great game maker. But far from perfect.

I never sayd he is perfect no designer is. I'm just putting it into context. Designing a game is **** hard and he pulled it off really well ( even the design of the new barbie game takes quite some time and I'm sure you couldn't make that document just yet, your welcome to prove me wrong though). Again please show me some obvious imbalances odf this game that haven't been fixed in the us version yet? I haven't found them yet and the ones considered are still under debate. Bowsers forwards B isn't even imbalanced IMO and the same for these chaingrabs. I do find tripping and the inability of teching throws weird.

We're judging it from a competitive angle.

Also, even casuals will eventually wise up to the imbalance of certain things. It's called having a brain.

You are but he isn't. He tried to satisfy both groups. And he seems to be accomplishing it aswell.

Casuals whine about imbalance more then competitive as far as I know. Isn't it the non hardcore crowd that whines about stuff you can't do cause it's not fair and it's imbalanced?

Whatever.

Did you just skip half my post.. :S. You criticise sakurai's designing skills. I'm just putting into context how extremely hard it is.
Also can you answer this?

Ryuker:

Right now I see no evidence of 1 char being absolutely top tier so getting a decent tier list for this game seems to be harder then for melee right now. This is just my opinion of course but if anyone can point out a clear top 4 right now that ***** more then half of the rest of the cast then please rise up.

 

[Yuna]

Yes and there are pro's and con's to this. It's his way of working and I'm not saying it is the best way. But it is remarkable he came up with most of it himself.

That other guy claims the collective minds of SWF couldn't possibly have done better or at least help him do it better.

So time a good edge hog and marth can't recover as well with up b I don't get why it makes tethers worse or make this a design mistake.

How does a good edgehog automatically kill Marth off if he doesn't sweetspot? He can still recover onto the stage. Tether recovery-only characters can't. It's called "Bad design".

Yes it's to prevent stalling. He obviously doesn't promote this and it's the only way to get rid of this. Your just being edge guarded well enough if he manages to prevent you from coming back after 4 tries. Is it balanced that marth can run of the stage and up b fox which kills him immediatly? I find 4 times a pretty good number since you get 4 **** tries of getting it right. Also I'm sorry I'm not too sure if you had to grab the ledge or touch the ground it could be grabbing the ledge grants you the 4 tries you get back again.

How the hell can you grab the ledge without Up B:ing it?! How can you Up B 4 times and only then grab the ledge? To Up B as Zamus is to grab the ledge or to miss it and die horribly.

It's also still badly designed.

It reaches from pretty **** low in comparison to a lot of chars. I'm not saying it's broken but if they would always get the edge from these angles edge guarding them is near impossible.

They could've done a bunch of other things instead of making it easily gimped. Bad design.

I never sayd he is perfect no designer is. I'm just putting it into context. Designing a game is **** hard and he pulled it off really well ( even the design of the new barbie game takes quite some time and I'm sure you couldn't make that document just yet, your welcome to prove me wrong though). Again please show me some obvious imbalances odf this game that haven't been fixed in the us version yet? I haven't found them yet and the ones considered are still under debate. Bowsers forwards B isn't even imbalanced IMO and the same for these chaingrabs. I do find tripping and the inability of teching throws weird.

You didn't. Some other guy did. I'm refering to him.

You haven't seen the imbalances in the game? Pick 5 Final Smashes, any 5 Final Smashes. Bowser's Koopa Klaw is not imbalanced because it can be DI:ed. It's been known for weeks. ICs has an infinite chaingrab now.

Certain characters are just too good while there are still certain characters that suck balls. What the hell was Sakurai smoking when he gimped Yoshi like that?

You are but he isn't. He tried to satisfy both groups. And he seems to be accomplishing it aswell.

Quite well =/= Perfectly

I'm not saying he failed. I'm saying there are still many flaws. That other guy's criticizing me for pointing out the flaws because apparently, Sakurai's too good.

Casuals whine about imbalance more then competitive as far as I know. Isn't it the non hardcore crowd that whines about stuff you can't do cause it's not fair and it's imbalanced?

We "whine" about balance when there's obvious imbalance.

Did you just skip half my post.. :S. You criticise sakurai's designing skills. I'm just putting into context how extremely hard it is.
Also can you answer this?

I skipped it because I grew tired of how it was just the same things all over again.

I don't see how you cannot see how Marth and Toon Link are definite Top Tiers (from what we know insofar) with Olimar joining them.

 

[Ryuker]

How does a good edgehog automatically kill Marth off if he doesn't sweetspot? He can still recover onto the stage. Tether recovery-only characters can't. It's called "Bad design".

If he't too far away he can't. If ZSS is close enough she has down B ( Which if it hits the wall walljumps). If ivysaur is close enough he can throw a leaf and olimar can throw pikmin. If they are too far they get edge hogged just like marth gets in melee.

How the hell can you grab the ledge without Up B:ing it?! How can you Up B 4 times and only then grab the ledge? To Up B as Zamus is to grab the ledge or to miss it and die horribly.

It's also still badly designed.

It's a attempt at good design. And it's pretty smart. I should note that there is a difference with hanging on the ledge and grabbing the edge. I mean you can't do this by just hanging and letting go and hanging again. I'm not sure if grabbing the edge still reduces the amount of upb's that grab the ledge. ZSS can also use her up b multiple times so she has a lot of options.

They could've done a bunch of other things instead of making it easily gimped. Bad design.

Like what? Plz tell me how you mean to solve this problem and still keep the sweetspot mechanic. Your's might not even be possible by coding ( not saying it won't).

You didn't. Some other guy did. I'm refering to him.

Yet the comment was aimed at me and I was quoted.

You haven't seen the imbalances in the game? Pick 5 Final Smashes, any 5 Final Smashes. Bowser's Koopa Klaw is not imbalanced because it can be DI:ed. It's been known for weeks. ICs has an infinite chaingrab now.

Whose to say final smashers are intended for us to use in competitive play? Ice climbers had wobbling in melee. Balancing 2 chars is extremely hard if you still mean to let them hit alternately. They probably missed this.

Certain characters are just too good while there are still certain characters that suck balls. What the hell was Sakurai smoking when he gimped Yoshi like that?

Dunno I hardly played yoshi. His up be gains height though and can be done repeatedly. He might have seen fumi and thought yoshi was way too good XD. How is he gimped since I don't exactly know.

We "whine" about balance when there's obvious imbalance.

Like what?

I skipped it because I grew tired of how it was just the same things all over again.

Or because you don't understand how a game is created ( I don't blame you hardly anyone does untill they get involved with it them self).

I don't see how you cannot see how Marth and Toon Link are definite Top Tiers (from what we know insofar) with Olimar joining them.

Cause I hardly play them. I play pit, diddy and snake, PT mostly right now. I never got the idea they were top tier. I don't see them as unbeatable when I play them with pit or any of my other chars. On the first day of play Ivo sayd that Pit was broken, then a week latyer he lost to biscuit's metakhight and said that one was broken. Coen says Ike is broken. We can't agree on 1 char being the best in this game at all yet. When we first saw snake we thought he was too good cause he had so much stage control and a good recovery but we know better now.

 

[BigRick]

Cause I hardly play them. I play pit, diddy and snake, PT mostly right now. I never got the idea they were top tier. I don't see them as unbeatable when I play them with pit or any of my other chars. On the first day of play Ivo sayd that Pit was broken, then a week latyer he lost to biscuit's metakhight and said that one was broken. Coen says Ike is broken. We can't agree on 1 char being the best in this game at all yet. When we first saw snake we thought he was too good cause he had so much stage control and a good recovery but we know better now.

lol you guys sound like bandwagon jumpers

 

[jamai]

I have 50+ hours of play (mostly 1v1) so I do have some Brawl experience and I'd say...

I'm in the more balanced group. When we first played Melee some characters such as Bowswer, Pichu and Mewtwo were clearly at the bottom from the first few weeks of playing, there was no doubt in our mind. Unless some exploit was found with them (which none were) they were just bad characters and it was obvious. Characters like Sheik, Marth, Fox and Falco were clearly at the top from the beginning as well. We didn't know any advanced tactics but it was just fairly obvious after a few weeks of play.

That said.. some characters are feeling pretty bad and some pretty good.. but considering how many more characters there are I'd say there are just as many standout characters (good and bad) as in Melee except with 11 more characters that feel balanced and in the middle. So yes I think it's more balanced but not so much that there will be little difference from the best to worst. I expect there to be a fairly large difference still.

Standout Top Tiers: Marth, Metaknight, Pit, Spacies

Standout Bottom Tiers: Bowser, Sonic, Snake, Ike

 

[Yuna]

If he't too far away he can't. If ZSS is close enough she has down B ( Which if it hits the wall walljumps). If ivysaur is close enough he can throw a leaf and olimar can throw pikmin. If they are too far they get edge hogged just like marth gets in melee.

They're much easier to edgehog than everyone else in the game.

And who the hell jumps off and grabs the ledge when the opponent is really far away, anyway? And nothing's stopping them from jumping out and whacking tether recoverers for edgeguard. At the end of the day, tethers are much more easily gimped than non-tethers.

It's a attempt at good design. And it's pretty smart. I should note that there is a difference with hanging on the ledge and grabbing the edge. I mean you can't do this by just hanging and letting go and hanging again. I'm not sure if grabbing the edge still reduces the amount of upb's that grab the ledge. ZSS can also use her up b multiple times so she has a lot of options.

It's an attempt. But it's not a successful attempt in terms of balance.

Like what? Plz tell me how you mean to solve this problem and still keep the sweetspot mechanic. Your's might not even be possible by coding ( not saying it won't).

Make it so the hitbox of the tethers stay out for much longer?

Whose to say final smashers are intended for us to use in competitive play? Ice climbers had wobbling in melee. Balancing 2 chars is extremely hard if you still mean to let them hit alternately. They probably missed this.

The game wasn't designed with competitive play in mind. This is obvious. And it's obviously not balanced. For one thing, FS:es are far from balanced. Some are overpowered, some suck (Lucario's, anyone?). It's just life.

Dunno I hardly played yoshi. His up be gains height though and can be done repeatedly. He might have seen fumi and thought yoshi was way too good XD. How is he gimped since I don't exactly know.

He doesn't gain much height and he can't recover from below by spamming Up B. He's gimped because there's no CC and no DJC. And he wasn't improved that much, so he's obviously gimped.

Like what?

Why must I look everything up for you?

Or because you don't understand how a game is created ( I don't blame you hardly anyone does untill they get involved with it them self).

I must not understand how to program a game or how to design it from scratch. I can still know how to balance a fighting game.

Cause I hardly play them. I play pit, diddy and snake, PT mostly right now. I never got the idea they were top tier. I don't see them as unbeatable when I play them with pit or any of my other chars. On the first day of play Ivo sayd that Pit was broken, then a week latyer he lost to biscuit's metakhight and said that one was broken. Coen says Ike is broken. We can't agree on 1 char being the best in this game at all yet. When we first saw snake we thought he was too good cause he had so much stage control and a good recovery but we know better now.

Yes, the Dutch are obviously the go-to guys for everything Brawl! You guys know more than everyone else!

Pit and Meta-Knight are Great characters, but not Amazing. Far from broken. What the heck is wrong with Coen?! Ike broken? He wishes.

Marth, Toon Link, Olimar. Play them, learn them, then talk. It's obvious you guys (including, of course, you) haven't played the game much or at least read up op and explored it much if this is what you think ("Ike is overpowered").