Brawl - More balanced than Melee? Lie or truth?

[Repryx]

Yuna Did you read my arugument on page 16 I beleive?

please address it

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=149606&page=16

 

[Yuna]

So yeah, you totally scored perfectly - a.k.a "(possibly Amazing-tier if the Amazings are nerfed or we find out some Amazing combos with him)" and "(if anyone figures out how to do that Chainthrow I saw)" totally refer to the present. Yeah. So much for "Current is the vital point" eh?

"Possibly Amazing Tier"-yeah. He is possibly Amazing Tier. But I put him in Great tier. I just meant that he's close to Amazing from what we know insofar. But if we find out more, then his place will change.

Still doesn't change the fact that I put him in Great Tier and not Amazing Tier because that's where I feel he belongs at the current metagame.

The IC's is a maybe because I'm not sure about them. I tried the chaingrab out and couldn't do and maybe I just suck. I'll research it more. It looked guaranteed but I don't know enough about it yet, though. And why should I? I'm not perfect. It was a mistake to put them there, however, I'll admit to that. But my tierlist hardly failed because of that one mistake nor did I only score 10% off of Alphazealot's little meter because of it.

So, how about it, eh?

I did one thing wrong. So did you when you (erroneously) used my cliff notes about Lucas as an example of why I fail. Does this mean you automatically fail as well?

To answer your final question:
You, still you, and always you. (sorry if you take offense, it isn't meant, I just mean to say that you have, in this instance, failed to prove your point to me.)

And you, apparently.

Seriously though, dude, I don't have a problem with you. You make me laugh, and I am totally cool with that.

Seriously, dude, I have a problem with you.

 

[Repryx]

^^Yuna do you own the game?

 

[Yuna]

^^Yuna do you own the game?

I know three people who do, I constantly go to their houses to play and I'm constantly trying to explore the metagame while doing it. It's more than a lot of people (most people who argue about Brawl here on Smashboards have only seen videos).

 

[Repryx]

^^mmkay now are you gonna address my wall of text on page 16?

Lolz this is like a smash Debater challenge

 

[Yuna]

I skipped a whole bunch of pages due to a lot of spam overnight.

IMO Marth is gonna get his own Tier(lolz)....but Marth Aside I beleive the game is more balanced due to certain moves being nerfed as well as the Stale move Negation Knockback reduction.

Certain broken Melee moves being nerfed does not automatically make the game more balanced. We have a whole bunch of new characters and some moves were nerfed too much while others were barely nerfed. Likewise, certain moves were actually buffed.

It's called change. Change does not automatically mean balance.

The new Stale Moves is also constant for everyone. Unless we find a character who's only playable if you use only 3 or so moves, no character is gonna suffer generally more than others from this. It's just another thing to keep track of.

Certain characters also have a much larger arsenal of good moves to use than others.

However...Yuna its really too early to tell We Exploited certain things in melee and we are gonna expliot stuff in brawl its inevitable...

Where in "From what we know insofar" do I exclude the chance of us finding out new things? It's still a discussion about what we know insofar.

Also I beleive certain stages make it balanced (as far as counter picks in tourneys) I.E Pit on his own stage or Sonic on larger stages with less gaps...Once again IMO Marth works on all stages...Fair,Fair,FairBLAH

Counterpick stages matter in Melee as well. How does this mean that Brawl must be more balanced than Melee?

Pit's stage will have to be banned due to the new Tether Recovery. Break the floors and characters who can only recover using Tether Recovery will be dead once they get smashed off the stage and can't recover using Air Control alone. Imagine semi-spikes against such characters on Pit's stage! Dead!

Also the fact that a bunch of ADV Techs arent in the game closes the gap in the player sense balancing the gamePLAY at this point (I use ADV Techs ALOT so dont think Im an advocate for people who cant)

What does this have to do with anything? The gap between Casual and Competitive players has been reduced. And? Does it make the game more balanced?

The Difficulty in combos Definitly balances the "I hit you with this attack or grab now I will 0 to death you from said attack or grab"

This does not mean balance. This means it's harder to combo... except for a select few who can still do it... which actually means it's less balanced since so few can combo. The ones who can will be really good.

The Airdodge post activity negates alot of dumb kills from one missing a tech as well as creates new strategies. Rather than having to know a bunch of button combos now you actually have to THINK.

Does not balance the game more. Makes it deeper, sure.

Also The characters that cant combo are normally the ones that KO at retartedly low percents (Ike Bowser Dedede....ROB)

Too bad this does not automatically mean balance either. It all depends on how it's all integrated. Ike is really, really slow. His strongest moves as so slow you'll almost never hit with them.

And then there are those who can't combo or KO.

Many Characters can approach safely one way or another....I'll use Ike as an example...A Running Bair has good range...is pretty fast and can get you inside for a quick jab combo

Not really, no. You must not shieldhop a lot. The new Shielding System also screws it up. Less shieldstun and much easier to Powershield. You see a bair? PS into punish.

When I set up certain matches (Barring Marth again) I Have a hard time. I.E. My Pit Vs. Olimar. My Pit gets pwned(and thats my main) YEt when I put Sonic or Ike up against Olimar I Have an easy time. Yet My Pit PWNs an Ike and my Falco PWNs a Sonic. Its not a Matter of Tiers now but its almost like the weapon triangle in Fire Emblem...Certain Characters have a harder time against other characters and Vice Versa....When I finally get the game Ill see if I can make you a chart maybe.

Maybe that Olimar is just a bad player. And of course individual matchups count, they always do.

What th-? I hope you arent saying that gimping people w. edgeguarding made Melee Balanced.....BTW Ill tell you how many of those people can do those 5 things....

No, I said that since you no longer can edgeguard easily, KO-cambility, comboability, comboability into KO-moves, approach and damage racking has become vital.

And extremely few characters have all of these attributes or even 4 or 3 out of them.

All but Ike (He doesnt combo well) But really...does Ike need combos when he has the most knockback in the smash series?

Really, how often do you see Ike landing an fsmash?

The balance doesnt lie in character match-ups Yuna...Rather in Strengths...Weaknessess....Stage/terrain advantage and the player being forced to think!

"The players being forced to think" = Balance?

Didn't you just argue character matchups being important to balance above, as well?

Also normally Casual players see a move that kills once I.E Knee, Then they Spam said Move to K.O....not in Brawl though...a casual player wont figure this out until someone tells them.

This means more balance how?

When we talk about balance, we're assuming that the players in the hypothetical fight are highly skilled players, not Casual Spammer #51.

Also Someone who plays brawl for a week will never beat one who is playing 4 a year....just not gonna happen Yuna I mean really...Teach someone to do all the same things I can do yet if they dont think and if they dont know their character... AND MINE....they are doomed.

This does not mean balance. When did I say anything that's even close to this?

Also, since the skill gap is apparently smaller now (by your own admission), it's easier for new players to do well against more experienced ones (by your own admission). Stop arguing against yourself.

Now If you have anymore qualms against brawl...please raise them I'll be happy to

A. Refute you or
B. Inform you of Brawls true nature

C. Argue against yourself
D. Provide random off-topic things
E. Argue things I never argued for/against
F. Provide me with inane or invalid arguments already done to death or at least laughably bad

I know you may not call me reliable but I do go to MANY Tourneys (I Just came from Chu Dats house last week) So I consider myself Reliable
BTW Zelda conters Marth pretty well so Im convinced Marth may not be as good as I originally thought(Only played the game ALOT.....still need to sit with it tho)

I'd call you a reliable source for debate if you'd actually give me valid discussion.

How about eloborating on why Zelda counters Marth instead of just stating it as if it were fact?

IMO you are going to see the balance as months go by....

There it is again, the "We'll see it later! Because I believe so!"

-Ciao

Abientôt.

 

[Hitzel]

I haven't seen a trend in Brawl videos showing that characters greatly counter others. At least not so much that no character(s) can be the "Amazing ones" because they have no chance against their counters.

For people who have Brawl:

Do you think that characters counter other characters significantly more than what was seen in Melee? What about to the point where there are no "Amazing" characters despite their obvious potential?

 

[Yuna]

I haven't seen a trend in Brawl videos showing that characters greatly counter others. At least not so much that no character(s) can be the "Amazing ones" because they have no chance against their counters.

For people who have Brawl:

Do you think that characters counter other characters significantly more than what was seen in Melee? What about to the point where there are no "Amazing" characters despite their obvious potential?

I have yet to see this either. An Amazing character stops being very amazing if they have matchup that's just impossible for them to win. Then they're bumped to Great.

 

[Repryx]

I skipped a whole bunch of pages due to a lot of spam overnight.


Certain broken Melee moves being nerfed does not automatically make the game more balanced. We have a whole bunch of new characters and some moves were nerfed too much while others were barely nerfed. Likewise, certain moves were actually buffed.

It's called change. Change does not automatically mean balance.

The new Stale Moves is also constant for everyone. Unless we find a character who's only playable if you use only 3 or so moves, no character is gonna suffer generally more than others from this. It's just another thing to keep track of.

Certain characters also have a much larger arsenal of good moves to use than others.


Where in "From what we know insofar" do I exclude the chance of us finding out new things? It's still a discussion about what we know insofar.


Counterpick stages matter in Melee as well. How does this mean that Brawl must be more balanced than Melee?

Pit's stage will have to be banned due to the new Tether Recovery. Break the floors and characters who can only recover using Tether Recovery will be dead once they get smashed off the stage and can't recover using Air Control alone. Imagine semi-spikes against such characters on Pit's stage! Dead!


What does this have to do with anything? The gap between Casual and Competitive players has been reduced. And? Does it make the game more balanced?


This does not mean balance. This means it's harder to combo... except for a select few who can still do it... which actually means it's less balanced since so few can combo. The ones who can will be really good.


Does not balance the game more. Makes it deeper, sure.


Too bad this does not automatically mean balance either. It all depends on how it's all integrated. Ike is really, really slow. His strongest moves as so slow you'll almost never hit with them.

And then there are those who can't combo or KO.


Not really, no. You must not shieldhop a lot. The new Shielding System also screws it up. Less shieldstun and much easier to Powershield. You see a bair? PS into punish.


Maybe that Olimar is just a bad player. And of course individual matchups count, they always do.


No, I said that since you no longer can edgeguard easily, KO-cambility, comboability, comboability into KO-moves, approach and damage racking has become vital.

And extremely few characters have all of these attributes or even 4 or 3 out of them.


Really, how often do you see Ike landing an fsmash?


"The players being forced to think" = Balance?

Didn't you just argue character matchups being important to balance above, as well?


This means more balance how?

When we talk about balance, we're assuming that the players in the hypothetical fight are highly skilled players, not Casual Spammer #51.


This does not mean balance. When did I say anything that's even close to this?

Also, since the skill gap is apparently smaller now (by your own admission), it's easier for new players to do well against more experienced ones (by your own admission). Stop arguing against yourself.


C. Argue against yourself
D. Provide random off-topic things
E. Argue things I never argued for/against
F. Provide me with inane or invalid arguments already done to death or at least laughably bad


I'd call you a reliable source for debate if you'd actually give me valid discussion.

How about eloborating on why Zelda counters Marth instead of just stating it as if it were fact?


There it is again, the "We'll see it later! Because I believe so!"


Abientôt.

Okay Im going to jump around I really apologize for being informal.

Well Yuna I ran thru and found random things you were talking about so my bad for not switching subjects but I not only talker about your balance thing but a few other mini arguments you have gotten into with other people....go check it out!


Also personally I DO beleive that the gap between casual and competitive players is actually part of the balance of the game (as far as some of our ADV techs go).

BTW Zelda counters Marth because she can make the area a a Mine Feild (Dins fire). Zelda's range has been increased to an extent also spacing with her is much much easier(IMO she is better than sheik)

About Ike, Its about how you use his strongest moves...not how often you can use them.

And yes being forced to think DOES Require balance, Why? If I write down a shoo-in combo...you can go practice it with your little bro and go to a tourney and tak a stock from grabbing or shining someone.

Think of it THIS way...I have a one hit kill(or combo) meanwhile you got speed and teh phire (or w.e). You are comboing me I roll out and kill you with the one hit. V2 the one hit(or combo) is there but its slower...rather than pressing the button combo to execute it I have to think how to get inside you and pull it off.

Which verion is more balanced?



You seem to be concerned with the lack of combos. Why? Just Curious. Combos do not balance the game especially when I can 0-death you...plain and simple. I thought I said this before but combos are now "on the fly" you HAVE to make them up by actually knowing you character as well as your opponents character.


Name those Characters that have more of an arsenal and I can tell you why they do have better moves.

Yuna you say people arent really going to suffer from the stale move negation? Have you ever been triple kneed across Final D? I have...self-explanatory


I dont think Pits stage is going to be banned because hugging the ledge will gimp a tether recovery as well...


Im not saying anyone factor contributes to balance. Here were the top things I looked for when my friend first turned on that Wii console


*Marth
*Fox(gimping)
*Comboability(receiving and giving)
*KO moves
*Surefire Kills(0-to death)
*How much I actually had to think
*How light certain characters were
*where the advangages were(stagewise)

To be honest Ill say that FS:es make the game unbalanced...yet with no Items...ITs WAY more balanced than Melee


Also How can you get upset with "its too early to tell"?

It IS to early...a Tier list hasnt even been made and MOST of the World hasnt touched it.


BTW Casual people are just as important as highly skilled players IMO because the game can be imbalanced to casual people who marth fair but perfect to tourney goers who set traps around the stage with snake.

Also IMO Its how you look at it...I know I probably cant change ur opinion but I think its Imbalance when I beat someone cuz I spammed lasers all day then Shine comboed him to death.

Where an example of Balance is Marth grabbed my Falco....and Im still alive.

The game is Balanced because Characters and stages are balanced...(does one of your friends use Marth?)

Oh and the Skill Gap I speak of is the Technical one not the mental one sorry!


-Ciao

 

[Samochan]

Funny how certain things made peach, for example, only a high tier on ssbm...

1. Not much legimate comboes
2. Has hard time to actually KO people off screen
3. Has hard/even matchups against lots of chars

See the trend here? Now peach is only mid tier at best cause gasp, her edgegame has been greatly nerfed due to new mechanics, her comboability due to new mechanics and her new moves is also a lot tougher and due to her own nerfing (no fc, buffed shield and her new attacks lack priority and range) and buffing certain chars (coughmarthcough) she's gonna have hard matchups. >_> Same things apply in brawl, only that they've been changed. Projectiles for example are not highly importance on brawl, but things like low% KO's and vertical KO options and if you can actually set up to those are very important. If someone (marth) can not only reliably combo you into KO at low% (or lower than most chars can Ko things), but also stop you from even approaching him safely (up B, range, moves) or edgeguarding him... if a character cannot do all the same things that make marth so good, they're not as good characters and therefore, lower on the tier list. Kinda like the fox on ssbm, so little disadvantages and still he had it all compared to the poor pichu who had all the disadvantages and so little advantages.

 

[Yuna]

"Also personally I DO beleive that the gap between casual and competitive players is actually part of the balance of the game (as far as some of our ADV techs go)."

This is not balanced. I stopped reading your latest post after this. You're clearly misguided and unaware of the true meaning of game balance and as such, discussing it with you would be pointless. Please look up what game balance is for future reference.

 

[Yuna]

Funny how certain things made peach, for example, only a high tier on ssbm...

1. Not much legimate comboes
2. Has hard time to actually KO people off screen
3. Has hard/even matchups against lots of chars

See the trend here? Now peach is only mid tier at best cause gasp, her edgegame has been greatly nerfed due to new mechanics, her comboability due to new mechanics and her new moves is also a lot tougher and due to her own nerfing (no fc, buffed shield and her new attacks lack priority and range) and buffing certain chars (coughmarthcough) she's gonna have hard matchups. >_> Same things apply in brawl, only that they've been changed. Projectiles for example are not highly importance on brawl, but things like low% KO's and vertical KO options and if you can actually set up to those are very important. If someone (marth) can not only reliably combo you into KO at low% (or lower than most chars can Ko things), but also stop you from even approaching him safely (up B, range, moves) or edgeguarding him... if a character cannot do all the same things that make marth so good, they're not as good characters and therefore, lower on the tier list. Kinda like the fox on ssbm, so little disadvantages and still he had it all compared to the poor pichu who had all the disadvantages and so little advantages.

And even Peach could at least rack up damage fast, another important thing in Brawl.

 

[Repryx]

Why dont you tell me?

 

[Samochan]

And even Peach could at least rack up damage fast, another important thing in Brawl.

Yea dat thing too, she could rack up loads of damage especially against space animals and edgeguard them on ssbm, but now she cannot rack even decent damage to anyone. >_>

It's been established on many occasions that jack of all trades > those that do not have it all. There are characters like this on brawl and thus, it's not completely balanced. But I cannot really tell or make claims about how imbalanced it's compared to ssbm.

 

[kin3tic-c4jun-3]

I think Yuna was saying that THIS discussion is regarding what we know insofar, but I do agree that it will take time to determine all this balancing stuff - that's undeniable.

I haven't hada chance to REALLY play Brawl yet, but it's my understanding that certain tether recoveries will do damage (Zamus ^b?), and you could therefore not edgehog against it. If that's the case then Sky World becomes less viable based on the previous arguments.

 

[Cisne]

Balance....

Every char has some autocanceled air atacks. So almost all chars have combo moves and KOing moves. Maybe ganon is one those chars that wont make it to finals in tournaments. The rest, i think every1 is fine. I know some chars have weird autocanceled attacks ( peach fair ? ) but some1 will find an use for them.

The problem got a name , actually 2 , olimar and marth.

 

[comboking]

yah the slow characters are better in this game then in melee take Ike for example!

 

[Yuna]

Balance....

Every char has some autocanceled air atacks. So almost all chars have combo moves and KOing moves. Maybe ganon is one those chars that wont make it to finals in tournaments. The rest, i think every1 is fine. I know some chars have weird autocanceled attacks ( peach fair ? ) but some1 will find an use for them.

The problem got a name , actually 2 , olimar and marth.

"Everyone has them" does not mean balance if some people are still better than others.

Some people can't combo well, even with auto-cancels because people fly too far or their moves are too easily DI:ed so they fly too far for comboing. Others have moves that allow them to combo at almost any %s 'til 100% or so.

 

[Hypnotoad]

Id say that right now brawl is both less balanced and more balanced than melee right now. Let me explain before you ignore what i have to say, from what ive seen(ill admit its not much, ive only played brawl for about a half hour and seen a bunch of videos) the difference between the top and everyone else in brawl is LESS balanced than melee while everyone else compared to each other seems MORE balanced. However this overall leads to a less balanced game now cause cause the top is that much better and everyone will just be using Marth, Toon Link, and Olimar for tourneys. That imo is what its at right now but it will hopefully change over time.

 

[Skalor]

From what i've played I feel the game is more balanced then Melee. I don't own the game my mate does, so ive probably only played the game for about 40-50 Hours worth.

Yeah im no big shot or anything but from what ive played this is why I feel its balanced. G&W Improoved, Fox and Falco not as super as before, Zelda Improoved, Sheik little nerfed, pretty much all new characters are on par with these.

Atm I can see any character being in the Top Tiers apart from: Link Yoshi Bowser(even though he seems improoved) and Kirby. And Yes I do actually like the Ice Climbers!

So when people say Brawl is more balanced, I definatly see where theyre coming from, but in a few Months that might be a different story, which is probably why a lot of Top players dont like to openly say it.

I certainly hope the game is balanced though, more characters being used = more interesting!

 

[Falling Whistness]

Ultimately it's just too soon to tell. After about 12 hours of play with friends the game strikes me as much more balanced than Melee. But the deep imbalance in Melee only became apparent to me after months of play.

 

[Cisne]

The problem is , Yuna , that you cannot have the same moves for every char and this prevent the game of being totally balanced.

Since i can actually beat sheik with more chars than sheik, "marth" and fox, i think this game is more balanced than melee. This is just an example another one is " you want a heavy char ?, choose one , he´s not going to be the sandbag of the match anymore"

 

[Froilen]

So...

SSBB - Marth = balanced?
theter recovery

 

[Yuna]

The problem is , Yuna , that you cannot have the same moves for every char and this prevent the game of being totally balanced.

Where did I bring this up? Of course a game cannot be completely balanced, no matter how much the Guilty Gear-makers are trying to balance the XX-series.

Since i can actually beat sheik with more chars than sheik and fox, i think this game is more balanced than brawl. This is just an example another one is " you want a heavy char ?, choose one , he´s not going to be the sandbag of the match anymore"

Yeah im no big shot or anything but from what ive played this is why I feel its balanced. G&W Improoved, Fox and Falco not as super as before, Zelda Improoved, Sheik little nerfed, pretty much all new characters are on par with these.

It's a new game. Sheik's been nerfed... a lot.

Of course you can beat her with more characters can Sheik or Fox now. She's been nerfed. She's a much worse character now than in Melee. Does that automatically mean the game's more balanced?

Yes, the old Tierlist has been changed. Characters have been made worse, others betters. But this doesn't necessarily mean Brawl is more balanced than Melee, just that the balance has shifted. What if they made two characters two are just leaps and bounds better than the rest? What if the Bottom Tiers just suck testicles? What if the tiers are still far apart?

Changing the tierlist does not automatically mean making the game more balanced. It's all in how the change is made.

Atm I can see any character being in the Top Tiers apart from: Link Yoshi Bowser(even though he seems improoved) and Kirby. And Yes I do actually like the Ice Climbers!

Did you mean bottom tier? Because Yoshi's really, really bad. Link's so-so and I'd say Bowser's pretty Meh, too.

 

[Yuna]

The problem is , Yuna , that you cannot have the same moves for every char and this prevent the game of being totally balanced.

Where did I bring this up? Of course a game cannot be completely balanced, no matter how much the Guilty Gear-makers are trying to balance the XX-series.

Since i can actually beat sheik with more chars than sheik and fox, i think this game is more balanced than brawl. This is just an example another one is " you want a heavy char ?, choose one , he´s not going to be the sandbag of the match anymore"

Yeah im no big shot or anything but from what ive played this is why I feel its balanced. G&W Improoved, Fox and Falco not as super as before, Zelda Improoved, Sheik little nerfed, pretty much all new characters are on par with these.

It's a new game. Sheik's been nerfed... a lot.

Of course you can beat her with more characters can Sheik or Fox now. She's been nerfed. She's a much worse character now than in Melee. Does that automatically mean the game's more balanced?

Yes, the old Tierlist has been changed. Characters have been made worse, others betters. But this doesn't necessarily mean Brawl is more balanced than Melee, just that the balance has shifted. What if they made two characters two are just leaps and bounds better than the rest? What if the Bottom Tiers just suck testicles? What if the tiers are still far apart?

Changing the tierlist does not automatically mean making the game more balanced. It's all in how the change is made.

Atm I can see any character being in the Top Tiers apart from: Link Yoshi Bowser(even though he seems improoved) and Kirby. And Yes I do actually like the Ice Climbers!

Did you mean bottom tier? Because Yoshi's really, really bad. Link's so-so and I'd say Bowser's pretty Meh, too.

 

[Koga]

It's a new game.

Ha! you admit it, i caugt you!!

no but in all seriousness, I think Brawl is more balanced in a strange way.

The gap between the good characters and the bad characters is A LOT bigger now, however, the group of Good characters is A LOT bigger this time around. So there is more Balance on average than there was in melee, With the random button you have a better chance of getting a good character than you had in melee.

 

[DarkKnight077]

I'll say that Ness, Kirby, Pika, Bowser, and even Zelda got some help. Link is still the same, just a tad faster and weaker. Fox is still good no matter how look at him.

It's balanced but when you compare someone like Bowser to Dedede where there is the balance in that? Dedede is the only one so far with a chain grab and plus he actually better than most of the heavy weights.

I kind of call that foul, that Sonic is decent but you have Yoshi who plain suckage once again.

 

[Cisne]

Sheik is worse , thats for sure , but its not bottom tier"".

Look at zelda now, shes actually playable, as many others chars that in melee needed an extreme effort put into their gameplay to reach victory. Now we could say its even.

 

[DarkKnight077]

Sheik is worse , thats for sure , but its not bottom tier"".

Look at zelda now, shes actually playable, as many others chars that in melee needed an extreme effort put into their gameplay to reach victory. Now we could say its even.

Yoshi is soooo playable. He's terrible actually. Link didn't get much love either. Toon Link is actually better than Link. Pika got love too. Falcon looks even weaker than freaking Snake. There is a balance between like I guess the upper Tiers like Dedede than from someone like say Ike.

Since there is no tier list I'm guessing from the vids I watched so far. Ike looks like to be a low tier.

 

[s2kpacifist]

If balance in any given Smash game is to be believed as an equilibrium of five things :KO Ability, Combo into KOs, Ability to Combo, damage racking, and approach...spread out over as many different characters as possible, then melee may well be determined to be more balanced than brawl due to the discovery of ATs over the years. (ATs augmented almost everything of those five, save raw KO ability)

I've had the pleasure to play Brawl extensively since it's initial release and while I do believe these five things to be important, if not the most important aspects of characters within SSBM they are not necessarily the defining characteristics of a balanced character within Brawl.

For example have any of us Melee players mastered the use of a footstool jump in brawl? Does KO ability matter (such as Marth's tipper) more than quick movement ability to chase an opponent offscreen quickly and yet recover with ease (Sonic /Meta/etc)? What is the significance of moves that do no damage and yet push characters? Have you seen SA frames being used to perfection during competitive play - hell is it even possible? What are the implications of Brawl's far-more-important airgame in comparison to melee?

What I'm getting at is although a certain seemingly lowtier character may be heavily lacking in traditional melee strengths I believe their potential has yet to be discovered. I've seen that ATs are often used sparingly to moderately in matches I've witnessed personally or online, therefore I believe players' abilities to utilize characters close to their fullest potential (i.e. how pros play SSBM now) will not be displayed for a long time simply because the ATs to make it happen simply aren't there yet.

This is however an assertion that gameplay-altering ATs will be discovered, much like Yuna's subjective assertions on Melee being more balanced, or the numerous assertions that Brawl is far more balanced than Melee.

With the game still so young, I think discovery and incorporation of more ATs may give characters more balance than most people think. That is IF more AT are discovered. Whether Melee or Brawl has more balance is yet to be seen.

 

[Metzger]

I don't think you're going to know the answer to this question for many months. Melee did not seem as horribly unbalanced as it really is in it's infancy as a competitive game. I think anyone claiming one way or the other is pretty naive; we haven't hardly scratched the surface of Brawl's competitive potential; next week a tech could be discovered that dashes the competitive game to the point that only a few characters are worth playing in a "play to win" tournament scene. What then?

Who knows. I will say that it wouldn't take much to make Brawl "more balanced" than Melee in the 1v1 scene. If the metagame somehow doesn't evolve beyond what we know right now, I'd probably put Brawl just above Melee, if only on virtue that there are more competitive characters on the high end. But we all know the face of the game now is going to be nigh unrecognizable in a year or two, just as it was with Melee.

Speculation isn't going to hurt anyone, but making any kind of serious claims right now is basically taking an indefensible position unless you're comparing Melee's perceived balance in this same time frame to Brawl. Otherwise you're just throwing pasta at a wall for the sake of seeing what sticks.

 

[Yuna]

For example have any of us Melee players mastered the use of a footstool jump in brawl? Does KO ability matter (such as Marth's tipper) more than quick movement ability to chase an opponent offscreen quickly and yet recover with ease (Sonic /Meta/etc)? What is the significance of moves that do no damage and yet push characters? Have you seen SA frames being used to perfection during competitive play - hell is it even possible? What are the implications of Brawl's far-more-important airgame in comparison to melee?

The footstool jump is something everyone has. And it works the same for everyone. If everyone has a footstool and Toon Link has a lot of things the majority doesn't, then Toon Link's obviously better (well, there's more to be said about this, but still).

Also, the footstool jump is in itself broken. Toon Link can negate shielding by footstooling someone and immediately Dairing. Sounds fair?

Most SA-frames for attacks that have a lot of them cannot be "used to perfection" since they often don't last for that long or at the very start of the attacks. And Ike's Aether sucks as an attack.

Sonic's hardly one of the better characters to chase recoveries with. His Up B covers no horizontal distance. Anyway, but that's an important part of the new game as well. Only the majority of characters can chase people off the stage now due to the new floatiness. But they can't do it that well, either, due to the new floatiness.

DI + floatiness = Win.

What I'm getting at is although a certain seemingly lowtier character may be heavily lacking in traditional melee strengths I believe their potential has yet to be discovered. I've seen that ATs are often used sparingly to moderately in matches I've witnessed personally or online, therefore I believe players' abilities to utilize characters close to their fullest potential (i.e. how pros play SSBM now) will not be displayed for a long time simply because the ATs to make it happen simply aren't there yet.

People don't use ATs much because there really aren't that many ATM. Also, I base my impressions on the balance off of the things you mentioned as well. I just didn't feel the need to go into every single thing about Brawl since that'd take forever.

This is however an assertion that gameplay-altering ATs will be discovered, much like Yuna's subjective assertions on Melee being more balanced, or the numerous assertions that Brawl is far more balanced than Melee.

I did say I could very well be wrong.

With the game still so young, I think discovery and incorporation of more ATs may give characters more balance than most people think. That is IF more AT are discovered. Whether Melee or Brawl has more balance is yet to be seen.

ATs won't necessarily balance the game. The "right" ATs will.

 

[ChewyChase]

My Theory: Read the last statement to get the point, supported by this wall of text.

The tiers are based on overall success people have with that character, and the consistency.

In Melee, which is VERY different than Brawl, beyond comparable, the top tier characters were Marth, Fox, and Shiek. They countered many other characters due to skills that none other had (E.G. Fox shining, waveshining, shine spike, etc.), overlooked and misbalanced, (Shiek... I think the dev team completely forgot to balance her/him/it), or very easy to play (Marth forward smash is a noob's best friend). It was so easy to use these 3 characters because of their strength, speed, and 'cheap' moves, they dominated tournaments before all others. When we discovered advanced techs, these characters remained able to perform those with great fluidity.

The high tier characters and above all have something in common: they counter and outdo a vast majority of those below them. The high tier 'circle', if you will, can't be broken once the characters have found their potential and their neutral matchups. If all the high tier characters are played in every tournament then middle tier char A, who counters top tier char B, can never place up there because top tier chars C and D will always destroy character A.

Balance may only be an illusion created by those who play. If most people can play easily and effectively Marth, then he will show up at tournaments. If everyone can chain throw with DeDeDe and KO with him, he will show up at tournaments. If tournament-goers can bair-combo with Toon Link before they master Sonic's ridiculous speed and to many impossible controls, Toon Link is then high tier. Sonic does not get the chance to be high tier because of his learning curve and difficulty. We were not able to figure out some of the 'lower tier chars.' fast enough before the 'quick and cheap' characters showed up and created a circle of high tier-ism that we cannot break.

Brawl, which has a learning curve from Melee to begin with, may be appearing more balanced because in fact it's easier to play more of the characters effectively. The ones that will require more time to learn, (Sonic, Ike, Jiggs, Snake, Ice C's) will start out in middle tier because of that hindrance.

When you match up a strange abnormal character, let's say Olimar, with one that is tried and polished, dare I say, Marth, assuming both people were highly competitive Melee players, who would win?

Olimar is ridiculously different than anything we have seen before in Smash. Marth was top in Melee. We already sort of know how Marth works, or so we think, but we have barely scratched the surface of Olimar's mindgames and playstyle.

Tiers are based on learning curve, and how fast they start dominating tournaments with other high tier characters, until an in-counterable family of characters is created that walls the characters below them.

Balance is determined by the players, and tiers are also relative to a player's skill with a given character, and the time it takes to develop it fully and comparably.

 

[Froilen]

I think taht all is just to subjetive, we cant, determinate if brawl is balanced or not for now until we get some feedback from tournaments. It is subjetive, and relative this way: maybe for yuna sheik is nerfed, maybe for me yoshi is buffed, maybe for gimpyfish62 MK is better than bowser... and so, if a n00b pikachu can beat a n00b Ike in a brithday party, or an Advanced Sheik mainer can beat an Advanced Falco mainer 2 of 3 times in a national tornament once, doesnt tell us anything, and neither...

and for now until, well... with all the fanbased player who chose the favorite character... maybe there wont be any "gimpyfish" players, because tere wont be any low tiers characters, or, the botom tiers character will be determinated for their own populariti, instead of their gameplay...


sorry for the misspeling

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

Sonic's hardly one of the better characters to chase recoveries with. His Up B covers no horizontal distance. Anyway, but that's an important part of the new game as well. Only the majority of characters can chase people off the stage now due to the new floatiness. But they can't do it that well, either, due to the new floatiness.

Small note: That's what Spin Dash/Homing attack is for.

 

[orintemple]

Ha! you admit it, i caugt you!!

no but in all seriousness, I think Brawl is more balanced in a strange way.

The gap between the good characters and the bad characters is A LOT bigger now, however, the group of Good characters is A LOT bigger this time around. So there is more Balance on average than there was in melee, With the random button you have a better chance of getting a good character than you had in melee.

This is pretty much what I was thinking. It seems like a lot of the characters are good now but there is a VERY CLEAR distinction between the good and the bad, and the middle ground seems almost non-existant except maybe a select few.

 

[Sliq]

First of all, a person with extensive melee knowledge/skill is not more qualified to discuss balance in Brawl. Why is this? Well first of all, casuals and people who do use ATs but don't necessarily go to tournaments are not morons. Balance is easy to see, whether you're competitive or not.

You do realize we are talking about the same people who thought wavedashing was unbalanced, right? I'd say their ability to perceive balance is pretty off.

Trust me, once Brawl comes out, people who may have dominated Melee may not even be high up in tournament rankings.

Sort of how someone good at 3rd Strike can't be good at Guilty Gear or Marvel vs. Capcom. Justin Wong says hi, by the way.

There is a certain mentality behind a seasoned tournament player that puts him in a position to be leagues ahead of other people without ever playing the game.

I don't expect you to understand. I'm basically asking you to trust my experience on this one.

Skill in Melee means **** in Brawl. How do I know this? Well the fact that I was able to win at least half of the Brawl matches I played against Melee pros is a good indicator.

I love when people claim to have beaten pros and then leave it at that, like NO ONE is going to ask who the pros that they beat are.

Who did you beat that was pro?

I'm not a casual player. I use ATs in Melee and am very good with them. I've been to 3-4 tournaments but have never placed very high. If people who win Melee tournaments often cannot beat me more than half of the time in Brawl, it's only logical to assume that skill in Melee does not necessarily mean skill in Brawl.

If you base your assumption off of the fact that the people you beat were actually pro and not some random guy.

Now that that rant is over, I'll get on topic. I've played Brawl. Although I haven't played it as extensively as some other members have, I have also spent a great deal of time watching people play Brawl at a smashfest. From what I have played and seen personally, there is no character that tends to come out on top most of the time. I don't know exactly what you're looking for when you say you want proof of balance. I guess you can watch Brawl videos and keep track of who beats who and how often. I'm not going to do your work for you.

However, this balance may only be temporary, caused mostly by our lack of experience in Brawl. Tiers may be defined more rigidly in the future, but as of now, every character seems to be able to beat any other. Once we learn how to play characters to their fullest potential, tiers may adjust and the game may prove to be less balanced than Melee and SSB64. However, for now, it feels balanced.

Also, you cannot ask people to prove you wrong when you haven't presented anything for them to argue against. You ask for proof of balance, but what proof do you offer for the contrary?

I really hate the "wait it out and see" approach to debates, as it seems like a cop out. Just base your argument off of what is currently known.

 

[Lord Viper]

The balance on the game is out of wack to me. There are more chaotic stages than they were on Melee, (Spear Piller x_x). But character wise, it's still not that balance, but at least you can win with just about anybody in the rouster. I need to play the game once again to fully explain my answer to this question. But so far, you have to count items, stages, characters etc. to say if the game is more balance than Melee.

 

[Doomgaze]

I've had the game since day 1. Been playing pretty much on a daily basis.
Me and all of my friends can tell this game is less balanced than melee ever was.

I agree completely with Yuna.

 

[Yuna]

Small note: That's what Spin Dash/Homing attack is for.

What I mean is that most of the time, the best he can do is one-two attacks and then he has to recover. He's hardly much better than the average character or on Pit's or Meta-Knight's level.

A lot of people also forget that the new floatiness allows people to attack back while recovering more all the while not risking too much by it due to it being easier to recover now.