• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Brawl - More balanced than Melee? Lie or truth?

Status
Not open for further replies.

rageagainst

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 23, 2007
Messages
257
Wow, get with the times.

First you talk about how Azen isn't one of the top guys any more, now you're talking about tournaments in 2006, lol.

Mew2King's Marth wrecked PC's Falco four games in a row before barely beating his Peach, then winning against his Fox for two consecutive 3-0 set wins at FC-Diamond.

Mango's Jigglypuff went on a rampage through the loser's bracket at *pound* 3.

Cort consistently places very high maining Peach.

Chu gets top3 spots and sometimes even first place with Ice Climbers.

Fox isn't the only dominant character in Melee, and he wasn't the top placing character by the end of the last major Melee tourney, either, lol.
your stating specific examples, which should not at all be done when trying to look at the whole, MOST tournies were won by a top/high tier, of which fox placed consistently high in. The tier list is based on the frequency a certain character is winning tournies, and fox/falco were TOP TIER throughout most of melee history, meaning most of the time they won tournies.

The amount of tournies won by low/bottom tiers is so insignificant is that there isn't a set placing for those characters in the tier list because there isn't enough info to draw from (one of my key arguments against using the tier list as the ultimate character ranking system)
 

Dark Sonic

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 10, 2006
Messages
6,021
Location
Orlando Florida
The tier list is based on the frequency a certain character is winning tournies, and fox/falco were TOP TIER throughout most of melee history, meaning most of the time they won tournies.
Actually, Shiek won more tournaments than Falco, and Marth won even more, rivaling and even maybe surpassing the wins of Fox.

IMO Marth and Shiek should've been above Falco.
 

SrL04

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 3, 2006
Messages
97
I think that brawl is less balanced than melee-

Melee:
Although it is true that wavedashing and SHFFLing made low tiers stand a chance, it also improved the high tiers. Fast gameplay.

Brawl:
Some low tiers have no "combo" potential whatsoever, some are really slow, and high tiers can take advantage.

My argument is that low tiers in melee could actually stand a chance with new techniques (fortress hogging, WD, and stuff like that), but in brawl, you could say everything is balanced because there is nothing there. But really, having nothing there makes it so that the low tiers don't have anything to stand back with. So far, brawl is super slow, and with melee's fast gameplay, there is more of a chance to mindgame, more of a chance for even low tiers to execute good combos, and to apply more pressure. Also, the gap for punishing mistakes is even smaller in brawl in that you regain control of your character really fast from hitstun, rolls, up B cancel edge hog, etc. (and of course, you hardly see techs nowadays, even wall techs).

How about you people don't talk about how you "feel" that the game is more balanced, and give examples and some facts... And don't say it's too early to tell, that's not helping.
 

Taymond

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 4, 2007
Messages
494
Location
UIUC/Chicago South Suburbs
Yuna the HUGE flaw in your thread is that your comparing Brawl to the PAL (final) version of melee, which was come to by the designers after testing several other versions. That was the FINAL version of melee, this is the SECOND version of Brawl, you can't compare them just yet (you may never be able to compare them if nintendo keeps patching Brawl).

Also people have problems with your argument because in their head they are comparing the current Brawl to the melee that they usually play, which is not the PAL one but probably a much earlier version (mabye .2? I'm not sure)
Keeps patching Brawl? The only possible patching they can do is in new releases. We've already got our releases, these are the ones we're gonna be playing, forever. The wii can't handle the level of patching now, and even if peripherals allow patching, its very unlikely that Nintendo will patch Brawl. Patching Brawl doesn't make them any more money, it doesn't make sense to waste energy and resources on patching it. They've already got everything they need out of Brawl.

Hate to break it to you, but this is the final version, excluding possible later-release changes.
 

Tyr_03

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 4, 2008
Messages
2,805
Location
OH
Marth has infinite chaingrabs against Lucas and Ness along with unconfirmed others possibly making them both completely worthless in tournaments. The game is getting LESS balanced as time progresses and not more. Melee is more balanced.
 

Mr.C

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 22, 2004
Messages
3,512
Some characters in Brawl are unplayable. Actually, comparing most of the characters to MK and Snake almost all of the characters in Brawl are unplayable.
 

Smash G 0 D

Leave Luck to Heaven
BRoomer
Joined
Oct 5, 2005
Messages
3,571
Location
Charlottesville, VA
Those chaingrabs go straight into killing moves for Marth and some other characters too. This is one reason that we might have to revert to teams being the main event at tourneys >.>
 

Resident_Smash_Genius

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 12, 2008
Messages
280
Location
Rochester, Michigan
I agreed with the OP all the way at the beginning. The gap is HUGE.

I'd pin 10 characters or so as top teir, IC's at god tier, and the rest as "meh". Well... and gannondorf at the bottom... lol.
 

VulgarHandGestures

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 18, 2008
Messages
326
Some characters in Brawl are unplayable. Actually, comparing most of the characters to MK and Snake almost all of the characters in Brawl are unplayable.
oh please. snake and metaknight are the lamest "unbeatable" characters in the history of fighting games. they're pretty nasty yes, but WARIO has more tournament wins that metaknight last time i checked. how many people are even considering wario for top tier? this game, for having 35/37/39 characters, is pretty well balanced.

Marth has infinite chaingrabs against Lucas and Ness along with unconfirmed others possibly making them both completely worthless in tournaments. The game is getting LESS balanced as time progresses and not more. Melee is more balanced.
that's how most video games work. besides, melee had about 7 tournament viable characters... you know people want to place about that many characters in brawl's top tier alone?

I agreed with the OP all the way at the beginning. The gap is HUGE.

I'd pin 10 characters or so as top teir, IC's at god tier, and the rest as "meh". Well... and gannondorf at the bottom... lol.
it's funny you should mention ic's as "god tier", because i've seen a captain falcon take a chain grabbing, desynching (read: someone who knows what they're doing with the ic's) ice climber player to the last stock and medium percent before dying.
 

Zankoku

Never Knows Best
Administrator
BRoomer
Joined
Nov 8, 2006
Messages
22,906
Location
Milpitas, CA
NNID
SSBM_PLAYER
oh please. snake and metaknight are the lamest "unbeatable" characters in the history of fighting games. they're pretty nasty yes, but WARIO has more tournament wins that metaknight last time i checked. how many people are even considering wario for top tier? this game, for having 35/37/39 characters, is pretty well balanced.
Using my character rankings list for this crap is moronic. Wario winning more tournaments is only because the Meta Knight and Snake players that had been winning their respective tournaments didn't go. Locally, in Canada Wario is amazing. In East Coast Dedede places top. In Texas some guy's winning with Sonic. When it all comes together, though, I'm pretty sure character "viability" will be much more clearly defined.

that's how most video games work. besides, melee had about 7 tournament viable characters... you know people want to place about that many characters in brawl's top tier alone?
Stop talking like you know anything about Melee, please. Also, please stop talking like you know anything about Brawl's metagame.

it's funny you should mention ic's as "god tier", because i've seen a captain falcon take a chain grabbing, desynching (read: someone who knows what they're doing with the ic's) ice climber player to the last stock and medium percent before dying.
I've seen a moronic Meta Knight player lose to a Sheik - MY Sheik. The top level of Brawl's metagame is what matters to most of us, not isolated events of some bottom tier player going even with some as-of-yet not high tier character in some silly local tournament where people are playing Captain Falcon seriously to start with.
 

lethminite

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 2, 2007
Messages
163
one thing is clear to me reading this tread, everyone keeps listing different characters as the top tier, or saying that "so and so isn't bottom".
if there is so much disagreement about who is at the very top, and who is at the very bottom, then it is clear that the difference between very high and high, and very low and low, is small.
it also shows that there is room for movement.

people also talk about peach sucking untill some pro used her a few years after melee's release. meaning, characters that suck now could join the top tier ranks later.

i don't care how good of a meta-game reader you think you are, or how skilled melee has made you at knowing what brawl will be like, it's too early to tell.


to take an abstract example, lets look at magic:the gathering, which is a game with many 1000s of people studying the meta game. A few years ago there was a card printed called tooth and nail, this card was petty much thrown away by most pros, it was considered absolute trash. while a direct comparison can't be made, think of it like ganon's Utilt, really powerful, but too slow to be of any use to pro players. One day a pro takes a deck based on tooth and nail to a tournament, it was made to do what was obvious, cast it as fast as possible, and win with it. thousand of players had looked and this card and thrown it into a pile of trash, yet some how the deck won, due to the exact way it was made, then won, and won, and won, and won.
the meta-game readers of magic have been reading meta games for well over 10 years, but no one can tell the future perfectly.

it is just far far too early to say who will be strong and who will be weak.


as for if melee or brawl was more balanced, i'd say at the moment brawl is more balanced simply because it is new, and everything is up in the air. but we can't tell for sure atleast for a few years.
 

VulgarHandGestures

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 18, 2008
Messages
326
Using my character rankings list for this crap is moronic. Wario winning more tournaments is only because the Meta Knight and Snake players that had been winning their respective tournaments didn't go. Locally, in Canada Wario is amazing. In East Coast Dedede places top. In Texas some guy's winning with Sonic. When it all comes together, though, I'm pretty sure character "viability" will be much more clearly defined.
... didn't some wario player completely shut down dsf's snake at a recent tournament in california? of course, that's just what i've heard, that may be completely false. please, correct me if i'm mistaken.

Stop talking like you know anything about Melee, please.
no.

Also, please stop talking like you know anything about Brawl's metagame.
no.

I've seen a moronic Meta Knight player lose to a Sheik - MY Sheik. The top level of Brawl's metagame is what matters to most of us, not isolated events of some bottom tier player going even with some as-of-yet not high tier character in some silly local tournament where people are playing Captain Falcon seriously to start with.
so you automatically know that both players were trashy and nowhere near the level of their respective character's metagame without even looking at the video. that's great. you sound like a very intelligent person who's also open minded and accepting of possibility. you'll go far with that sort of mind set.
 

Zankoku

Never Knows Best
Administrator
BRoomer
Joined
Nov 8, 2006
Messages
22,906
Location
Milpitas, CA
NNID
SSBM_PLAYER
Farther than people will go with little anecdotes of what they've seen. :p

This is why I like facts and data, then people can't tell me my opinion is wrong because it's not my opinion to begin with.
 

VulgarHandGestures

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 18, 2008
Messages
326
Farther than people will go with little anecdotes of what they've seen. :p

This is why I like facts and data, then people can't tell me my opinion is wrong because it's not my opinion to begin with.
so, no real response? just an insinuation that you have all the facts and data and i have nothing, even though that doesn't address the issue of a wario beating a major snake player in california (which, by the way, is not the same as canada) and your petulant assumption that anybody who might bring evidence against your position is a "nobody" and therefore not worth paying attention to?





that's kind of disappointing.
 

Zankoku

Never Knows Best
Administrator
BRoomer
Joined
Nov 8, 2006
Messages
22,906
Location
Milpitas, CA
NNID
SSBM_PLAYER
so, no real response? just an insinuation that you have all the facts and data and i have nothing, even though that doesn't address the issue of a wario beating a major snake player in california (which, by the way, is not the same as canada) and your petulant assumption that anybody who might bring evidence against your position is a "nobody" and therefore not worth paying attention to?
Wrong. Rather that I don't have all the facts and data and thus I'm irritated at people who also don't but act like they do. It might be pointed at you, but I dunno. Lots of stuff happening today that I have to play catchup with because I was gone most of the day, and practically none of it is positive.
that's kind of disappointing.
Are you trying to start a fight? Because if you are...

Then you win. I don't care enough to defend points I don't have enough information on yet.
 

ellelaby's younger brother

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 8, 2008
Messages
134
Brawl is unbalanced. Characters like Olimar and Falco get absolute control and just dominate everyone outside of Marth/Toon Link/few others. Falcos new lasers make it so you opponent stays on the ground, within grab range or far enough away so he cant get tippered/grabbed. His new shine helps with this too. You can chain grab with his down grab too.

Olimar is just ****ing nasty. He can camp like a ***** and spam Pikmin or just **** you with Fair to Dair combos. His grab range is also ridiculous. It's like Marth and Peach had a baby while doing drugs. HE'S JUST THAT CRAZY.

I'm not even going to talk about Marth because well all know how gay he is.

Yeah, Falco is TOO GOOD and the way things are going in Brawl, more people will play him and he'll be winning tourneys like crazy.

Your wrong. Olimar is not a Marth and Peach had a baby while doing drugs. It's more like there was a huge orgy with Diddy Kong, Pikachu, Kirby and Peach.... while doing drugs. You just don't know who the father is.
 

ellelaby's younger brother

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 8, 2008
Messages
134
... didn't some wario player completely shut down dsf's snake at a recent tournament in california? of course, that's just what i've heard, that may be completely false. please, correct me if i'm mistaken.



no.



no.



so you automatically know that both players were trashy and nowhere near the level of their respective character's metagame without even looking at the video. that's great. you sound like a very intelligent person who's also open minded and accepting of possibility. you'll go far with that sort of mind set.

I agree with you. The guy that told you that **** is a 2006 noob. People who have just started playing Brawl are as good as the pros that have been playing for Melee for ages. Everyone knows that. On top of that, just because people have join dates and haven't ever gone to a RL tournament, doesn't mean they don't know about smash - for all we know, people with join dates of 2008 (me) and haven't ever gone to a RL tournament (me) may have been following the Smash series since the release of SSB. (me). The only reason why I've never competed in RL is that I have more important things to do (that nerds could only dream of) and even if I made the time somehow to go to a tournament, I wouldn't go anyway because everyone is a nerd... Not saying you nerds are bad people... it's just I would stand out incredibly so much if I did. Not everyone is a nerd that goes to tourneys... Are they?

Anyway, I'm interested in seeing how Brawl's metagame develops. I'll most probably be playing Brawl from time to time (not too much) and checking out these boards from time-to-time so I'll be keeping up with everything. But yeah, it would be wonderful if someone suddenly discovered a few techniques that made the game so much faster and better.

However, Brawl is more balanced simply because everything is up in the air... there quite a few different characters winning tournaments and other reasons people have stated.
 

Zankoku

Never Knows Best
Administrator
BRoomer
Joined
Nov 8, 2006
Messages
22,906
Location
Milpitas, CA
NNID
SSBM_PLAYER
People who have just started playing Brawl are as good as the pros that have been playing for Melee for ages.
Uh, aren't they the same people? Or at least, everyone who's been playing Melee for ages just started playing Brawl, too.

And skill level does not always directly relate to knowledge of the game or metagame. I'm just upset at people taking my data and using it improperly. Join date or whatever had nothing to do with it; when people say something wrong about Melee and use it as support for some other point about Brawl, I get upset, especially if part of that had basis in information I gathered which demonstrated an entirely different point.

Whatever. I'm still a 2006 noob and nothing will ever change that, because I can't alter the fact that I joined Smashboards in 2006. :p
 

SamuraiPanda

Smash Hero
Joined
May 22, 2006
Messages
6,924
to take an abstract example, lets look at magic:the gathering, which is a game with many 1000s of people studying the meta game. A few years ago there was a card printed called tooth and nail, this card was petty much thrown away by most pros, it was considered absolute trash. while a direct comparison can't be made, think of it like ganon's Utilt, really powerful, but too slow to be of any use to pro players. One day a pro takes a deck based on tooth and nail to a tournament, it was made to do what was obvious, cast it as fast as possible, and win with it. thousand of players had looked and this card and thrown it into a pile of trash, yet some how the deck won, due to the exact way it was made, then won, and won, and won, and won.
the meta-game readers of magic have been reading meta games for well over 10 years, but no one can tell the future perfectly.
I really like this example.

And it looks like I'm a 2006 noob too, Ankoku :D
 

ellelaby's younger brother

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 8, 2008
Messages
134
Uh, aren't they the same people? Or at least, everyone who's been playing Melee for ages just started playing Brawl, too.

And skill level does not always directly relate to knowledge of the game or metagame. I'm just upset at people taking my data and using it improperly. Join date or whatever had nothing to do with it; when people say something wrong about Melee and use it as support for some other point about Brawl, I get upset, especially if part of that had basis in information I gathered which demonstrated an entirely different point.

Whatever. I'm still a 2006 noob and nothing will ever change that, because I can't alter the fact that I joined Smashboards in 2006. :p

So what if you had been using an account since 2004... and then you forgot the password so you made another account in 2006? Would you then still be a 2006 noob?? :p
 

Zankoku

Never Knows Best
Administrator
BRoomer
Joined
Nov 8, 2006
Messages
22,906
Location
Milpitas, CA
NNID
SSBM_PLAYER
So what if you had been using an account since 2004... and then you forgot the password so you made another account in 2006? Would you then still be a 2006 noob?? :p
Yes. Join date is join date. If you get your 4-digit SteamID banned and have to get a new one, you're an 8-digit now.

to take an abstract example, lets look at magic:the gathering, which is a game with many 1000s of people studying the meta game. A few years ago there was a card printed called tooth and nail, this card was petty much thrown away by most pros, it was considered absolute trash. while a direct comparison can't be made, think of it like ganon's Utilt, really powerful, but too slow to be of any use to pro players. One day a pro takes a deck based on tooth and nail to a tournament, it was made to do what was obvious, cast it as fast as possible, and win with it. thousand of players had looked and this card and thrown it into a pile of trash, yet some how the deck won, due to the exact way it was made, then won, and won, and won, and won.
the meta-game readers of magic have been reading meta games for well over 10 years, but no one can tell the future perfectly.
Tooth and Nail didn't become viable until cards in later sets were printed. Sudden changes to the metagame like the introduction of new sets/blocks and removal of old ones... doesn't seem very applicable to Brawl. There are some discoveries that do in fact alter the metagame a decent amount - Snake's metagame development could be comparable to Tooth and Nail's evolution from Onslaught-Mirrodin to Mirrodin-Kamigawa, I suppose, where the best options changed, but the overall style remained the same.

Also, the people studying the metagame of MtG did get one thing right - Ravager Affinity was broken. The response was banning pretty much all the cards that defined Ravager Affinity in the first place. And I would very much not like such a final solution as banning an entire character in Brawl just to maintain balance among characters - it'd pretty much undermine the point of Smash, in my opinion.
 

ellelaby's younger brother

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Apr 8, 2008
Messages
134
It would be cool if Snake got banned... he shouldn't have been in Smash the first place. It should have been restricted to Nintendo only characters. Snake seems to make the game "dirty." Get it? Yeah? Get it? Hes from PlayStation....

Imagine how nice the game would be without him... everything... beautiful. Btw, I own snake... hes not that good anyway,
 

Bocom

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 16, 2007
Messages
106
Location
Sweden
It would be cool if Snake got banned... he shouldn't have been in Smash the first place. It should have been restricted to Nintendo only characters. Snake seems to make the game "dirty." Get it? Yeah? Get it? Hes from PlayStation....

Imagine how nice the game would be without him... everything... beautiful. Btw, I own snake... hes not that good anyway,
... nooooooooo, he's from the MSX. And he's been on the NES too. And the GameCube of course.


Anyway, to the point. I don't really care if it's more balanced than Melee. They are different games. I still play both (more Brawl because I sadly didn't own a GameCube, so I don't own Melee, but some of my friends do), because that varies it all a bit. They are balanced in their own spectrums: Melee has a smaller cast, thus the Tier gap wasn't as big, but some characters were broken as all hell, especially if you are playing someone who are WAAAY better than you! Brawl has a slightly larger cast, and some of the oldies are now balanced out a bit, so they aren't too bad, nor too godly (Marth's an exception of course. ;)), and as long as the FSs are off (NO, we won't go there now!), then, in my opinion, it's balanced enough (the "Space Animals-fly-off-screen-with-people-on-it-FS-technique" is even lamer than Kirbycide in my eyes).

Besides, both Melee and Brawl are more balanced than 64. And as long as it's more balanced than 64, then it's pretty much all good by me. :)
 

Zankoku

Never Knows Best
Administrator
BRoomer
Joined
Nov 8, 2006
Messages
22,906
Location
Milpitas, CA
NNID
SSBM_PLAYER
I'm pretty sure Smash 64 is seen as the most balanced game of the three.
 

Corigames

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 20, 2006
Messages
5,817
Location
Tempe, AZ
one thing is clear to me reading this tread, everyone keeps listing different characters as the top tier, or saying that "so and so isn't bottom".
if there is so much disagreement about who is at the very top, and who is at the very bottom, then it is clear that the difference between very high and high, and very low and low, is small.
it also shows that there is room for movement.
No, it just shows that there are a lot of people talking about what they don't know which makes for very large amounts of error.
 

Atmapalazzo

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Messages
48
I love brawl, don't get me wrong on that part. However, it is an unbalanced game to me. For me it's this reason:

It has more exploitable techniques (such as chain-grabbing or the IC neutral b lock).

Something to remember though is perspective. You may see something as "unbalanced" and "cheap" while others may look at it as "deep" and "a key technique".

...****** Yuna! Why'd you have to sway me :(

However let's use another Magic: The Gathering example.

We have a card called Tarmogoyf, A playset (4 of them) is worth more than a Nintendo Wii. However, it was originally discarded as a 2/3 for two that grew larger and capped off at about 5/6. It was barely worth anything at first. However, people started to realize that despite it's lack of evasion, it's sheer power for it's casting cost was phenomenal. Now almost every green deck will play Tarmogoyf. This moral is that we very well may not know the full potential of individual characters and techniques yet. It is also an example of how brawl may potentially be balanced in the future, we don't know yet however because a character like Mr. Game and Watch may have a well hidden but easily exploited weakness or a character like Yoshi may have an insane AT. The last moral is this though... buy cards early, regret buying them later.
 

Lord Viper

SS Rank
Joined
Sep 26, 2007
Messages
9,023
Location
Detroit/MI
NNID
LordViper
3DS FC
2363-5881-2519
Shouldn't this thread have a conclusion yet. :p

It's been over a month, we all should know if the game more/less balanced becasue of the items, stages, and characters that we play with. Someone talley them up now, becasue I'm too lazy. XD
 

FrostByte

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 15, 2006
Messages
1,075
Location
London, England
Oh shi-! Then I guess that I am pretty differentiated in opinion! xD
It has the best character balance. Every character has the potential to **** and to be *****, it was just a little easier for some characters than others (Link's recovery comes to mind).
 

Bocom

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 16, 2007
Messages
106
Location
Sweden
It has the best character balance. Every character has the potential to **** and to be *****, it was just a little easier for some characters than others (Link's recovery comes to mind).
You can say that, yeah, but my opinion stays like it is. The game 64, to me, what most elitists would call a scrub or a n00b (because of my join date or some other reason), is pretty balanced in characters, but some attacks are just plainly "WTFGODLY!", like a rising Dair by C.Falcon or a "spike-on-almost-every-hit" Dair from Kirby, and Fox is an example of a character that I wouldn't want to meet. Why? Because I am not that good at the game.

I mean, hell, I don't really care for balancing, unless it's, like, BROKEN (which it isn't in my opinion). I mean, I main Mario and C.Falcon in every game for crying out loud. xD
Even though I main C.Falcon, doesn't mean that I am a godly and manly beast at the games. To be honest, if I join the UppCon:09 Melee tournament (if there will be one, hint hint, Yuna? :<), then I will most likely get my *** kicked. Hard. I probably won't stand a chance. But I will still sign up for the tournament. Why, you ask?

Because it's a fun game. All of them are. To me.


Oh, and please don't flame me too much on this post, I don't like being burned. ;)
 

Zankoku

Never Knows Best
Administrator
BRoomer
Joined
Nov 8, 2006
Messages
22,906
Location
Milpitas, CA
NNID
SSBM_PLAYER
The attack balance is pretty decent as well, because almost all characters have their set of broken attacks. It's part of what makes Isai able to take character selection requests from the audience and still JV7 a lot of people in a 6-stock game.
 

Sundown

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 13, 2006
Messages
218
Brawl is more unbalanced as melee, for a very simple reason.

There is only like 5 or 6 characters that can PUNISH MISTAKES the way mistakes are supposed to be punished in a FIGHTING GAME. In Brawl you can play recklessly vs almost every character and fear nothing cuz the only punishment is one grab that leads to nothing (yay for unexistent hitstun) or a hit that also leads to nothing (unless you are at killing percentage... then you loose a stock but im talking 50% or something like that here). That is the reason this game will be incredibly unbalanced and the difference between the different tiers will be HUGE. Just because of the fact that some characters actually have the ability to punish (through chaingrabs most of them, or Zamus dsmash chain vs very very few characters... or Zamus dsmash -> guaranteed bair at 80% +) so that makes it lets see... i think if i say 7 characters that can actually punish correctly is already a bit of an exageration...

Just the reason that very few characters can actually punish in this game will unbalance this like crazy.
 

Xiivi

So much for friendship huh...
Premium
BRoomer
Joined
Aug 31, 2006
Messages
20,342
Location
somewhere near Mt. Ebott
Smash 64 is easily the most balanced in that virtually every character has the ability to perform a 0-death combo. The only difference in the N64 tiers stems from how easily these characters can pressure each other into said combos and how well the character can execute them. Pikachu for example can easily continue his combo very far off the stage and recover once it is finished. However, Link does not have this luxury of being able to continue the combo far past the edge. All combos are situational, however, for Pikachu the situation is almost always there and for Link it is not.

Brawl is already shaping up to be the least balanced of the three games. We are already finding ways to make characters unplayable. Not 'unplayable' in the sense that Mewtwo was terrible, he could still compete with the best, however had the most serious flaws. However unplayable in the since that Ness/Lucas cannot do anything against a huge portion of the cast of characters. If we are already discovering ways to make characters near-useless then the game is not balanced. Ness/Lucas will never be able to go anywhere in competitive play when their opponent has a wide selection of characters that has an easy infinite on them from a grab that is due to faulty programming of their escape animations. Brawl was not tested properly at all. It was tested to ensure that Player A could beat Player B just easily as Player B could beat Player A rather than testing that Character A could beat Character B just as easily that Character B could beat Character A. This allows for many things to go overlooked and in the end many characters will not have a chance in competitive play. Mewtwo had a chance, TaJ proved that Mewtwo could beat any other character when played to full potential. However, no matter what potential you want to play Ness at, he can never win against a large portion of the cast. Brawl is incredibly more unbalanced than Melee due to this.
 

Lucario2k8

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 26, 2008
Messages
62
Location
somewhere far away think its called hyrule
seriously wait at least 8 months, fora couple majors are played and a tier list, the game is still new-ish and to early to clarify balances.this wasnt an issue with melee as there wasnt much expection/not many people cared about balances, but since the competitive melee scene flourished more has been expected from the game to be balanced.IMO brawl has a lot of pressure to be tight and perfectly developed.
 

SmashChu

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Jul 14, 2003
Messages
5,924
Location
Tampa FL
I do believe this game is more balanced.

For one, every character has enough pros to at least balance out the cons. This was not true in Melee and a lot of characters got ignored. In Brawl, that is not the case. Each character has some kind of advantage and some even large then others.

Let's look at Capt. Falcon and Ganondorf. These two are considered the lowest tiers as of now. But they don't suffer as much as Pichu, Mewtwo or the rest of the low tiers. They have no real glaring disadvantage to them. Ganondorf is slow but has some of the strongest moves. I've seen him easily KO foes at less then 100%. Capt. Falcon doesn't have the same strength from Melee but is still quite powerful. He has some killer air more, a spike, the knee and some stronger specials. His only big weakness is it's not Melee, where is pros are king.

We'll have to see how the game develops to see who is best. One thing to remember (that everyone forgets) is tiers are very subjective, and can never be 100% true. They can only make a best guess and hope they are right or close. This is evident as the tier list changes constantly. Those who are higher on the tier list are the ones who are used more. They get more attention and more stuff is found for them. So a characters like Falcon may in truth be the best character, but since the initial reaction is that he sucks no one tries to figure out his potential.
 

Sundown

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 13, 2006
Messages
218
SmashChu all i can really tell you is that you should read Xiivis post, its the one just abover the post above you. Take into consideration and tell me how can Brawl be more balanced, when all Marth (dont knowabout rest of the cast, but im sure about Marth) has to do to **** Ness and Lucas is get ONE GRAB per stock and mash A button and regrab till Ness oder Lucas are at 200% or something lol...

I mean it doesnt even matter who you main (and this is only in the case that only marth can do that... again i think more can but im not sure), if youre in a tourny and you have to fight a ness or lucas player all you have to do is switch to marth and get one grab, there goes 2 characters out of the window from competitive play, MUCH MORE out of the window than mew2 ever was.
 

Ludwig von Kill U

Smash Rookie
Joined
May 3, 2008
Messages
1
Location
Russellville
Hey im new to smashboards so my opinion may not count much but i agree with the Yuna guy. ive had the game since it came out and for a while now ive noticed that the game is actually highly unbalanced. I get that you can no longer change your momentum when you air dodge but being able to dodge several times in the air is a little much. Tripping is stupid, some characters are just nimble and overpowering which is unfair, and naturally the stage builder options are a little shallow. There are a bunch of glitches in the game. One time is was actually caught in Toon Links final smash and i was kicked out of it. This other time my friend was link and he used his special, the triforce things came out and caught his opponent and then just disappeared without having any effect whatsoever.
 

NESSBOUNDER

Smash Master
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
3,167
Location
somewhere sunny
I used to think Brawl was more balanced until this Lucas/Ness chain grab came about.

But I love the feel of Brawl way more than Melee or 64. What am I going to do? ;_;
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom