Brawl - More balanced than Melee? Lie or truth?

[Lecto2007]

brawl is 1000X more balanced than melee

 

[Fawriel]

brawl is 1000X more balanced than melee

I'd like you to try and justify this claim with some specific facts that are not "I feel it is" or "everyone has a chance now" or "X used to have no chance against X but does now".

I'm so sincere right now. I want to see your reasoning.

 

[Bronze]

No she's not. You must be referring to some reaaaaally outdated tierlist. I also don't remember there even being an official PAL tierlist.

Or, he could be referring to this stickied topic.
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=97627
You know, the up to date one, which is named 'Official PAL Tierlist'

 

[Yuna]

Or, he could be referring to this stickied topic.
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=97627
You know, the up to date one, which is named 'Official PAL Tierlist'

I forgot about that one. A tierlist decided by the opinions of 22 people... and quite a contrast to the NTSC-one.

Sheik's been nerfed considerably, Falco's barely been nerfed, yet Sheik's better than Falco now, magically? A lot of people disagree on Sheik's placing. BTW, the list might have been skewed by the fact that the very best player in Europe for a while now (he wins most major tournaments) is Amsah, who mains Sheik. And before him, for a long while there until Ek took over with Marth, the European champion was The Doug, also a Sheik player.

Falco's matchups against the others haven't worsened, Sheik's matchups against others (like Peach and Marth) have. Marth lost the Ken Combo being a spike-combo, however, but Peach lost nothing. Hence, Sheik lost more than Falco in the transition.

Fox lost power from his Upsmash, yes indeedy, so that's a one-up for Sheik, but, hey, it's not like Fox could never Upsmash Falco. Sheik lost a whole deal against Peach due to the Dthrow being horribly nerfed against Peach and the Upair no longer KO:ing Peach easily.

Falco's non-spiking Dair isn't useless, however. With the wrong DI, it sets up perfectly for an actually spiking Dair.

 

[Aussierob123]

There's still alot to learn about brawl. I mained snake, and yeah, he is WAY too strong, he has no short commings to his incredible power on ground. However I argue that there is still alot to learn because there are ways to even beat snake (His air game is horrible if you can manage to avoid his bair, uair and dair. Any good snake player can agree that when they are knocked up, the first thing they want to try is to return to ground)

Is brawl more balanced than melee? To be honest I can't say, I didn't know enough about the lower tier characters in melee. Why? because I didn't give them effort. I wouldn't argue that brawl is more balanced though, because a character like snake compared to a character like say perhaps peach is definately noticeable. Snakes power actually lead me to stop playing him

 

[Samochan]

Falco's non-spiking Dair isn't useless, however. With the wrong DI, it sets up perfectly for an actually spiking Dair.

And while I may add, the soft hitbox from falco's dair opens up many comboes, even if you hit with it by accident. Only at the lowest % it does not combo into anything, while at medium and higher it comboes into whatever you might wanna do since there's still quite load of stun. I'd say it's on some cases even better than his ntsc dair, because you can mostly do all the same stuff you can with ntsc dair as with pal dair.

I could go on saying pal version of melee is the most balanced one out of the bunch (if ssb64 is not included) due to sheik not ****** half of the cast anymore with simple dthrow, and peach's matchups being considerably easier and balanced. Lots of chars are played widely on pal regions, albeit some countries favor some characters (like dutches mainly use sheik and frenchies go with falco and jiggs). How many crew matches actually feature 3 good jiggs in a row?

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

brawl is 1000X more balanced than melee

Snake and Meta-Knight say hi.


Just taking a short glance at Ankoku's topic, and realizing that Snake and Meta Knight are just making everyone their backyard *****es is sickening. You cannot honestly back up the fact that Brawl is more balanced than Melee at this point, and I'm Pro-Brawl.

 

[St. Viers]

I'm too lazy to read all 62 pages--I'm guessing the conclusion has been that except for snake and MK, brawl is more balanced.

Or is it "brawl teams are the most balanced"

but yeah, I just looked at Ankoku's topic, and snake/mk are ****-stomping everyone else by over 100 points

 

[DiasFlac]

Brawl > Melee

 

[St. Viers]

^^not the point of this thread, (^_^)

 

[DiasFlac]

Look ppl we knew that Bowser would be making everyone their ****** someday but their no point in arguing about it.

Yeah yeah Bowser is god tier but I think we can all look back on this and say "I tried"

 

[Radical Dreamer]

In melee the "best character" was Fox and most if not everyone used Fox so that they would have the best possible chance of winning.

In Melee there is no universal agreement that Fox is the best character, only that he is one of the best characters.

The two worst characters in Melee are slightly worse than Brawl's. That being said, Brawl's best character is much better than Melee's best. Still, there's a much more balanced middle.

God, this is what I mean by ******** people who don't know a thing. Mewtwo is worse than Brawl's worst characters, despite his ability to death combo space animals? And Captain Falcon can do what to Snake, or any of the other really good characters for that matter?

 

[Neverender]

brawl is 1000X more balanced than melee

Says you untill you get ***** by some random wolf, marth, ike, *insert OP other Unbalanced chars here*

 

[Toesrus]

Choose your character!

Olimar!

Luigi!

2 minutes later.

The winner is...
Olimar!

Melee is much more balanced.

 

[BrianShepard]

The Reason

You all go on and on about how Melee is more balanced than Brawl, or visa versa. You need "reliable" or "competitive" gamers to back up their evidence, because that's a credible source. It's all dumb. Do you realize that wave dashing, and L-canceling, and pretty much any other move/combo related to those two "techniques" are actually GLITCHES in Melee? MELEE WAS A BROKEN GAME. If you didn't know what an L-Cancel was, or a Wavedash was. You were not pro. End of story. You couldn't beat anyone. That just goes to say that any "Pro" Melee player was actually someone who abused a glitch in the game. So, if you're going to say that "omgz sum1 uzed infinite grabz n00bz h4x!!!!1!!!" You're pretty **** ********. You say Brawl isn't balanced, because 10 characters are better, or whatever argument you say. I say Melee isn't balanced, because if you didn't 1. figure out how to L-Cancel or Wavedash on your own, or 2. Learn how to L-Cancel or Wavedash from someone else. YOU COULD NOT WIN A TOURNAMENT. That's the fact. In Brawl, you can play at home against a level 9 computer, and if you really got good enough just by doing that, you can actually do decently in a tournament. That's my point. Melee was a broken game. The winners were abusing a glitch, and Brawl's winners seem to be doing the exact same thing. Only this time, it's only 10 characters with a glitch instead of all of them. That might mean that Brawl is more unbalanced, but as for me. I like Brawl better. It's newer, and there is much more variety. Say what you will. Just about everyone on here is under 17, and likes to flame at people for sucking. That's why I try not to post on here often (I'm not that good), but at least I realize that Melee was a broken game. I'm not saying Melee would be better if there wasn't L-Canceling, or Wavedashing. I'm just saying, that those "techniques" were never intentional by the developers. You should all know that when deciding which game is more balanced.

 

[Zankoku]

Do you realize that wave dashing, and L-canceling, and pretty much any other move/combo related to those two "techniques" are actually GLITCHES in Melee?

Yes, because there's a glitch in Melee where pressing L, R, or Z 6 frames before landing on the ground would cause landing lag to be cut in exactly half.

MELEE WAS A BROKEN GAME. If you didn't know what an L-Cancel was, or a Wavedash was. You were not pro. End of story. You couldn't beat anyone. That just goes to say that any "Pro" Melee player was actually someone who abused a glitch in the game. So, if you're going to say that "omgz sum1 uzed infinite grabz n00bz h4x!!!!1!!!" You're pretty **** ********.

I could've sworn I asked people who were new to Melee/not good at Melee to give their opinions as facts, 'cause they're usually wrong. : (

You say Brawl isn't balanced, because 10 characters are better, or whatever argument you say. I say Melee isn't balanced, because if you didn't 1. figure out how to L-Cancel or Wavedash on your own, or 2. Learn how to L-Cancel or Wavedash from someone else. YOU COULD NOT WIN A TOURNAMENT. That's the fact.

So in Brawl, there are 10 characters that automatically have a better chance of winning than the rest, and in Melee, you had no chance of winning unless you practiced...? What's the argument of balance, then? CLEARLY game advantages are much more balanced than skill advantages.

In Brawl, you can play at home against a level 9 computer, and if you really got good enough just by doing that, you can actually do decently in a tournament. That's my point.

You're dead wrong.

Melee was a broken game. The winners were abusing a glitch, and Brawl's winners seem to be doing the exact same thing. Only this time, it's only 10 characters with a glitch instead of all of them. That might mean that Brawl is more unbalanced, but as for me. I like Brawl better. It's newer, and there is much more variety. Say what you will. Just about everyone on here is under 17, and likes to flame at people for sucking. That's why I try not to post on here often (I'm not that good), but at least I realize that Melee was a broken game. I'm not saying Melee would be better if there wasn't L-Canceling, or Wavedashing. I'm just saying, that those "techniques" were never intentional by the developers. You should all know that when deciding which game is more balanced.

I'm not going to bother looking at the rest of this, because it looks like a repetition of the above.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Says you untill you get ***** by some random wolf, marth, ike, *insert OP other Unbalanced chars here*

You failed the second you said Ike was overpowered.


Seriously, Learn how to Block and Roll. Ike is terrible.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Dude, Ankoku, you need to stop responding to posters that have no idea what they're talking about. I know its annoying when they think they're right, but no matter how many you prove wrong, another one will pop up right after.

 

[Mr.C]

You all go on and on about how Melee is more balanced than Brawl, or visa versa. You need "reliable" or "competitive" gamers to back up their evidence, because that's a credible source. It's all dumb. Do you realize that wave dashing, and L-canceling, and pretty much any other move/combo related to those two "techniques" are actually GLITCHES in Melee? MELEE WAS A BROKEN GAME. If you didn't know what an L-Cancel was, or a Wavedash was. You were not pro. End of story. You couldn't beat anyone. That just goes to say that any "Pro" Melee player was actually someone who abused a glitch in the game. So, if you're going to say that "omgz sum1 uzed infinite grabz n00bz h4x!!!!1!!!" You're pretty **** ********. You say Brawl isn't balanced, because 10 characters are better, or whatever argument you say. I say Melee isn't balanced, because if you didn't 1. figure out how to L-Cancel or Wavedash on your own, or 2. Learn how to L-Cancel or Wavedash from someone else. YOU COULD NOT WIN A TOURNAMENT. That's the fact. In Brawl, you can play at home against a level 9 computer, and if you really got good enough just by doing that, you can actually do decently in a tournament. That's my point. Melee was a broken game. The winners were abusing a glitch, and Brawl's winners seem to be doing the exact same thing. Only this time, it's only 10 characters with a glitch instead of all of them. That might mean that Brawl is more unbalanced, but as for me. I like Brawl better. It's newer, and there is much more variety. Say what you will. Just about everyone on here is under 17, and likes to flame at people for sucking. That's why I try not to post on here often (I'm not that good), but at least I realize that Melee was a broken game. I'm not saying Melee would be better if there wasn't L-Canceling, or Wavedashing. I'm just saying, that those "techniques" were never intentional by the developers. You should all know that when deciding which game is more balanced.

You're an idiot.

First of all L-canceling is not a glitch they explain how to ****ing L-cancel the the **** howtoplay guide you idiot lol. So pretty much what you're saying is Brawl takes no skill? "In Brawl, you can play at home against a level 9 computer, and if you really got good enough just by doing that, you can actually do decently in a tournament." Because I completely agree, when compared to Melee which took dedications and massive amounts of practice Brawl to Melee is like Hello Kitty compared to Counter Strike.

I'd also like to point out, even if such "techniques" weren't put into the game intentionally (although Lcanceling was) doesn't mean the game is worst, actually those techniques made Melee even more in-depth and overall a better game.

That's my point. Melee was a broken game. The winners were abusing a glitch

We were winning because we used what the game had to offer? lol you're just plain dumb.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Because I completely agree, when compared to Melee which took dedications and massive amounts of practice Brawl to Melee is like Hello Kitty compared to Counter Strike.

So how many thousands of dollars have you won at Brawl tournaments? I mean, its so easy to play that you can wipe the floor with everyone else, right?

Oh wait, thats a complete and utter lie.

 

[Vro]

Because I completely agree, when compared to Melee which took dedications and massive amounts of practice Brawl to Melee is like Hello Kitty compared to Counter Strike.

Guys, didn't you know? Hello Kitty can be competitive! We just need to level the playing field so any scrub has some chance of placing anywhere!

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Either way, either game is not easy to play at a competitive level.

People who says Brawl is "Too easy" honestly should be placing 1st in the wide majority of tourneys they attend, because I mean, Brawl is easy right? Owning all the "Noobs" should be little challenge to someone who says it's "Easy.


Unless your like the Kobe Bryant of Brawl, Brawl being too easy is not a viable reasoning for sayng Brawl is bad.

And I have to agree with Mr.C somewhat. Shepard is probably terrible at smash, and L-canceling is stated in the howtoplay guide AND it was in 64. Wavedashing Sakurai admitted his testers found out pre-release, but they decided to leave it IN. That says something. The reason he removes it is because he didn't want Brawl to be too hard for casuals with the Technical depth it provides, which was a bad idea in the competitive sense

 

[Vro]

The problem, nobody can be the Kobe Bryant of Brawl. There is nothing one person can do that is absolutely unique or impressive. Everyone is on the near same level. The game may be easy, but it's easy for everyone.

 

[Mr.C]

So how many thousands of dollars have you won at Brawl tournaments? I mean, its so easy to play that you can wipe the floor with everyone else, right?

Oh wait, thats a complete and utter lie.

That's like asking Silent Spectre why he never won any money from MLG, even though he is regarded as one of the better players in the states, there are better people placing above him.

That's kind of like how I am, a very skilled player, actually I've been one of the best Texas smashers for years, and I've earned quite a bit of money over my smash career. I admit there are better people that live in Texas who usually take top 1-3 therefor winning the cash, but that doesn't make me bad or belittle my knowledge of the game.

Don't even try to deny when comparing Brawl to Melee the game is blatantly "easier" to play at the games highest level.

The game may be easy, but it's easy for everyone.

True, and that is where natural talent, knowledge of the game, and experience come into play. Just because something is "easy" doesn't mean that person will be the "best"

 

[Amarkov]

That's like asking Silent Spectre why he never won any money from MLG, even though he is regarded as one of the better players in the states, there are better people placing above him.

That's kind of like how I am, a very skilled player, actually I've been one of the best Texas smashers for years, and I've earned quite a bit of money over my smash career. I admit there are better people that live in Texas who usually take top 1-3 therefor winning the cash, but that doesn't make me bad or belittle my knowledge of the game.

Don't even try to deny when comparing Brawl to Melee the game is blatantly "easier" to play at the games highest level.

Right now, the game is easier to play at its highest level. Right now, the game has also only been out for a couple months. Just because nobody knows how to play at a higher level yet doesn't mean that level doesn't exist.

Remember, wavedashing wasn't discovered for about two years after the release of Melee. Melee without wavedashing would be only marginally harder than Brawl to play.

 

[Neverender]

Right now, the game is easier to play at its highest level. Right now, the game has also only been out for a couple months. Just because nobody knows how to play at a higher level yet doesn't mean that level doesn't exist.

Remember, wavedashing wasn't discovered for about two years after the release of Melee. Melee without wavedashing would be only marginally harder than Brawl to play.

Your wrong. Wavedashing WAS discovered a WEEK after melee came out, but they said that it had no use.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

They were obviously wrong weren't they?

 

[Mr.C]

Right now, the game is easier to play at its highest level. Right now, the game has also only been out for a couple months. Just because nobody knows how to play at a higher level yet doesn't mean that level doesn't exist.

Remember, wavedashing wasn't discovered for about two years after the release of Melee. Melee without wavedashing would be only marginally harder than Brawl to play.

We have been playing Melee for years and understand the general knowledge and meta-game of the series. Comparing the time the games have been out is kind of childish. When Melee first came out there was hardly a community, now that we have a community of hundreds of thousands of people things evolve much quicker, not to mention Melee's game engine allowed for such things to be discovered and used, while Brawls engine limits the things you can do within the game itself. Nothing will change in Brawl dramatically. The only thing that will change is people practicing certain match ups to counter-pick better lol.

WD'ing was known from the start of Melee, it just wasn't put to good use until later years.

 

[Amarkov]

We have been playing Melee for years and understand the general knowledge and meta-game of the series. Comparing the time the games have been out is kind of childish. When Melee first came out there was hardly a community, now that we have a community of hundreds of thousands of people things evolve much quicker, not to mention Melee's game engine allowed for such things to be discovered and used, while Brawls engine limits the things you can do within the game itself. Nothing will change in Brawl dramatically. The only thing that will change is people practicing certain match ups to counter-pick better lol.

WD'ing was known from the start of Melee, it just wasn't put to good use until later years.

If nobody uses a technique, the game is not functionally different than if it isn't there. Melee with nobody us

And I don't claim that we should wait two years before saying Brawl has no advanced techniques in the ilk of wavedashing. Obviously, there is now a larger community, so it shouldn't take two years to discover anything game-changing. But it's still going to take longer than a few months.

 

[Messiano]

The only factor that could be seen at every Weeklie and every tourny that shows how balanced they tried to make this game its their is MORE Overused characters. lol yes i know sounds like im complaining but i honestly don't care but a lot of Toon links, Snakes, Meta knights, Pits, Rob, Falco, Fox, Wolf, hell i've even seen a lot of gannons online.

 

[hippochinfat!!]

Says you untill you get ***** by some random wolf, marth, ike, *insert OP other Unbalanced chars here*

Ike is sub-par.

 

[Vro]

hell i've even seen a lot of gannons online.

Popularity =/= High Tier

 

[leafgreen386]

Popularity =/= High Tier

This. I don't care how fun he is to play. Ganon SUCKSSSSSSSSSSS competitively.

 

[Resident_Smash_Genius]

Stuff

Everything you post sucks.

 

[Fletch]

If nobody uses a technique, the game is not functionally different than if it isn't there. Melee with nobody us

And I don't claim that we should wait two years before saying Brawl has no advanced techniques in the ilk of wavedashing. Obviously, there is now a larger community, so it shouldn't take two years to discover anything game-changing. But it's still going to take longer than a few months.

Then what is the threshold we establish that would merit a worthwhile look at Brawl's metagame? You really think there is some technique hiding out there that is going to make the game competitive? I really don't think anything is going to come up to change the lack of hitstun (Brawl's most limiting competitive factor right now), and thus combos will never exist, and thus there will be a very lacking punishment game, making for an awful competitive game. I hope I'm wrong, but realistically, I don't think a technique exists to change that.

 

[Fawriel]

I know a technique. I call it HostileTakeoverOfNintendoToForceThemToMakeABetterVersion.

 

[Yuna]

OK, one more time:
Wavedashing was discovered immediately following Melee's release (because how long did you think it'd take before someone airdodged into the ground?). People said "It has no use".

Wrong? Yes.

But this was 7+ years ago. The Smash scene was tiny and full of mostly technical n00bs. Most techs were deemed "useless", etc. People didn't actually actively look for new techs on a regular basis. The scene is nothing like that now. There are people actively searching for new techs every day, the scene is now huge and if a new tech is discovered and posted about on Smashboards, people will be all over it in a heartbeat.

There will be no taking 2 years to discover something unless said thing is an obvious glitch and really, really weird and hard to perform unintentionally. There will be no deeming techs useless before looking at them closely. At this point in time, most techs have probably been found out.

 

[Empy]

No she's not. You must be referring to some reaaaaally outdated tierlist. I also don't remember there even being an official PAL tierlist.

Yes she is, I'm sure, the list is not that outdated at all, I thought from somewhere last year. Let me look it up.

Edit: there it is, stickied at Europe regionals.
here

You posted there yourself. Also, it was from the start of last year and I think the NTSC tier list is even older.

 

[Mr.C]

Your quote sucks lol.

 

[DiasFlac]

Brawl > Melee