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"Brawl+ is getting out of hand..." [MODERATORS PLEASE CLOSE!!!]
- Thread starter XSilvenX
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shanus
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Nov 17, 2005
- Messages
- 6,055
I feel this post is way too reactionary given that things are obviously in testing and you see things come and go very quickly based on community feedback. Did this need its own thread? No, we have a thread made for its own purpose already.
On your points, I agree with a lot of what you say, and a lot of it is already in the works. For example, Ivy's upB: We agreed we weren't going to keep it in its infinite form, but buff its hop effect slightly akin to the height of olimars. Rather than implement it in the old gravity code, Almas is making a new version of the code which will make this change trivial to implement and we will do it when he finishes it.
Rather than posting with what I agree with, I'll post with what I disagree with:
Lucario's upB change: In its current implementation, it is somewhat too good. I feel, as do the 15 or so others I spoke with at BtL about it, that it wasn't in that it can be attacked out of, but that its travel speed was enhanced. I plan on removing it as such as that is what I think is the true core problem surrounding it and truly adds probably one of what I think is the richest changes we have made to a enhance a character. I personally would be sad to see this go as I think many others would given how much it adds to his diversity and variety.
Falco's Shine: I'm truly indifferent on this, but falco is very beatable in his current state and I feel his shine before was much more limited than you suggest. I don't really care which direction it goes in, I just want to do whats best for the character and therein its viability.
However, the sheer fact that some people here are so reactionary is a bit perplexing. Given that I think we are fairly forum active and pretty receptive towards feedback makes this seem a bit overhyped, especially in that we have taken on the responsibility of balancing a game which is, while calculated, sometimes a guess and check process. I appreciate the candor in your feedback, but just saying that this process is by no means facile and is an elaborate work in progress.
On your points, I agree with a lot of what you say, and a lot of it is already in the works. For example, Ivy's upB: We agreed we weren't going to keep it in its infinite form, but buff its hop effect slightly akin to the height of olimars. Rather than implement it in the old gravity code, Almas is making a new version of the code which will make this change trivial to implement and we will do it when he finishes it.
Rather than posting with what I agree with, I'll post with what I disagree with:
Lucario's upB change: In its current implementation, it is somewhat too good. I feel, as do the 15 or so others I spoke with at BtL about it, that it wasn't in that it can be attacked out of, but that its travel speed was enhanced. I plan on removing it as such as that is what I think is the true core problem surrounding it and truly adds probably one of what I think is the richest changes we have made to a enhance a character. I personally would be sad to see this go as I think many others would given how much it adds to his diversity and variety.
Falco's Shine: I'm truly indifferent on this, but falco is very beatable in his current state and I feel his shine before was much more limited than you suggest. I don't really care which direction it goes in, I just want to do whats best for the character and therein its viability.
However, the sheer fact that some people here are so reactionary is a bit perplexing. Given that I think we are fairly forum active and pretty receptive towards feedback makes this seem a bit overhyped, especially in that we have taken on the responsibility of balancing a game which is, while calculated, sometimes a guess and check process. I appreciate the candor in your feedback, but just saying that this process is by no means facile and is an elaborate work in progress.
Blank Mauser
Smash Champion
Which has horrible startup time and is pretty worthless considering the risk of getting combo'd and when Sonic has much better options. You have to go out of your way to use it, but its hardly ever worth it. What Sonic "needed" was a kill move. Usmash set up for that in a little more indirect way. Predicting aerials and then a tech for a kill move sounds like a pretty good deal for a character who has trouble approaching and good reading is essential to making use of him.
Also, how people can be so adamant about giving Falco, a pretty amazing character, a quick, decent-ranged setup, but then be so against giving Ivysaur a useful projectile is beyond me.
Unfortunately people only see the worst in everything. Its a good move, it must encourage spamming!
Arkaether
Smash Ace
Yeah. I'm personally of the opinion that the WBR needs at least one good main of every single character. For example, I support the opinion of the Falco mains because they're Falco mains. I wouldn't trust an Olimar main with a Jigglypuff change, and I wouldn't trust a crazy good player who mains Fox with my Falcon proposal for change.
@Black Mauser: I agree that falco is already a good character which is why he doesnt need to bee "touched"..
Sonic's uSmash is fine the way it normally was. which sets up for aerials and such. Leave the sonic buffs in the hands of those who do amazingly with him. And since when dos Sonic have a hard time apporoaching? With his speed? come on.
Sonic's uSmash is fine the way it normally was. which sets up for aerials and such. Leave the sonic buffs in the hands of those who do amazingly with him. And since when dos Sonic have a hard time apporoaching? With his speed? come on.
I'd just like to note that in Brawl, Lucario's wall cling is **** and can be easily punished by a simple stagespike/death, or simply hitting him in the 5 years it takes to start up Extremespeed/the 10 years he stays stuck to the ground in lag after landing/the year he spends completely vulnerable while moving because he has no protection at all ever.
I'll also note that Lucario thrives on the fact that kill moves are hard to land in Brawl, and the existance of kill combos sorta ruins him to hell and back, so I don't see how a recovery buff is unfair or even unnecessary.
Also, in Brawl, Extremespeed has lag.
Someone explain to me how the **** that's supposed to make sense.
Also, recovery was never his major downfall. <<
I'll also note that Lucario thrives on the fact that kill moves are hard to land in Brawl, and the existance of kill combos sorta ruins him to hell and back, so I don't see how a recovery buff is unfair or even unnecessary.
Also, in Brawl, Extremespeed has lag.
Someone explain to me how the **** that's supposed to make sense.
Also, recovery was never his major downfall. <<
The funny thing is,nobody asked then to make Falco Shine to be a combo starter or something lika that,after the buff,and removing,they now say
''He needed this,this add a new amount of depth and actually became more useful''
''He needed this,this add a new amount of depth and actually became more useful''
CountKaiser
Smash Lord
While I support experts talking about their characters, we should be careful to know if these experts know how their characters work in brawl+. People come in saying a character sucks, or that a change is OP, without even trying it, let alone extensively trying it to see if it is indeed broken.
Ray_Kalm
Smash Master
I don't play brawl +, so I can't complain about any of those things in the opening page.
But, I am catching some unusual stuff in peoples posts, such as backing up certain characters on certain aspects, while where others that have the same problem (I caught a few stuff from reading like over 30 posts about brawl +) are being left out by them.
But, I am catching some unusual stuff in peoples posts, such as backing up certain characters on certain aspects, while where others that have the same problem (I caught a few stuff from reading like over 30 posts about brawl +) are being left out by them.
^ this x9000
Nobody would complain with what they got until they get something better or lose it completly.
Clever_Sleazoid
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Mar 9, 2008
- Messages
- 188
The backroom people disagree enough with how many there are now, adding more would be madness...
Lucario's upB has to stay, but I agree with returning it to it's original speed, or at least 1.25x instead of the 1.5x. It makes him so much more fun, and gives him so many more opportunities, yet he is still easily beatable. I, quite frankly, hate the conservative argument. If we can make turn adequate into awesome, I'm for it.
Falco's shine is easily techable. It only combos at certain %, other times it only leads into tech chases. It also hardly makes Falco too good, it makes him just right IMO. I never was into Falco, but with this new change I am in love with him because he is now so unique.
Also, what's with criticizing the test builds as if they were final? Seriously. Everyone knew the Ike B> was stupid, and it was taken out. THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS. It's tested, it's broken/too good, it's taken out. Geez. The latest change was one I enjoyed the most since... ever. Right now it sounds like a lot of people just don't like change.
This feels like the election all over again.
Lucario's upB has to stay, but I agree with returning it to it's original speed, or at least 1.25x instead of the 1.5x. It makes him so much more fun, and gives him so many more opportunities, yet he is still easily beatable. I, quite frankly, hate the conservative argument. If we can make turn adequate into awesome, I'm for it.
Falco's shine is easily techable. It only combos at certain %, other times it only leads into tech chases. It also hardly makes Falco too good, it makes him just right IMO. I never was into Falco, but with this new change I am in love with him because he is now so unique.
Also, what's with criticizing the test builds as if they were final? Seriously. Everyone knew the Ike B> was stupid, and it was taken out. THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS. It's tested, it's broken/too good, it's taken out. Geez. The latest change was one I enjoyed the most since... ever. Right now it sounds like a lot of people just don't like change.
This feels like the election all over again.
leafgreen386
Dirty camper
This thread appears to be full of a couple things (and I don't just mean the first post): misunderstandings, overreactions, and some actually legit concerns.
First things first, for those of you who see this thread as a way to vent about how brawl+ has taken its general mechanics changes too far... I'm sorry, but I guess brawl+ just isn't for you. The general mechanics have been in place since the beginning of brawl+, and are really brawl+'s defining features - the whole reason it exists in the first place. Brawl+ is not simply a rebalanced brawl; it's practically a whole new game, where even if we didn't edit each character individually, would still see very different prevailing tactics than vbrawl. The specific character changes done after these global changes are done to balance the game and increase each character's depth of gameplay.
Which brings me to my second point: although a character may play "fine" without changes, if the character can be edited to be deeper and more enjoyable for those who main the character while still retaining balance, it should not be rejected. For example, falco's shine buff: Falco mains were willing to trade a nerf to his laser for this buff, in order to retain balance, and were in fact very enthusiastic about it. The shine change adds so much more depth to falco's game, making him a more interesting and fun character. Subjective? Of course. But seeing as the falco mains obviously agree with that statement, it can't really be argued. If the shine change broke falco, then we would not be able to implement it (or at least in its current form). You may not like seeing the way a character's moves work being completely altered, but unless it threatens game balance or if you main said character, you really shouldn't be complaining. I reiterate, falco's lasers were nerfed to facilitate the shine buff. We all have characters we hate to fight, but we shouldn't let that get in the way of making this game deeper or to cloud our judgments of balance.
Now, for the actually legit concerns... I would like to stress the point that brawl+ is not a finished project. We try new things. Sometimes they work. Sometimes they don't. Sometimes they just need more tweaking. I'll be the first to admit that we make mistakes: we're only human. Things may seem right at first glance, and then it's revealed after some testing that something isn't working properly. We're glad to hear feedback on these types of things, such as zelda's upB, sonic's dsmash, ivy's multiple upBs, the ICs' blizzard, or lucario's recovery, which I will address below.
Zelda's upB and Sonic's dsmash - It's not very hard to accidentally overbuff or overnerf something, and then still fail to correct it on the second try. Some things require quite a bit of testing and tweaking to get right. We will most certainly be reviewing these changes again and seeing about making them more punishable.
Ivy's multiple upBs - On this one, we were already aware of the problem. As has been mentioned, we're going to try to just give him a slightly bigger hop when he upBs and remove the infinite upBs, which seem to be causing more problems than anything.
ICs blizzard - This is new. Well... newish. I'm not entirely sure how this one got passed our radar, as it was in our list of things to go back to and fix, but somehow got forgotten in the midst of everything else. So thank you for bringing this back up to our attention.
Lucario's upB - I think the problem is with the speedup of the upB, itself, rather than being able to attack out of it. We gave the actual movement a speedup, which seems to have allowed lucario to gain more distance with it than before. The primary reasoning for the upB's inclusion was actually for the offensive options and variety it grants lucario, rather than as a recovery buff. Although it does indeed aid in recovery, that was not the fundamental reasoning for its inclusion. As such, it would be most reasonable to remove the portion that caused it to become too good as a recovery move rather than remove its other functions that served to make the move interesting.
If there are any specific complaints I missed please let me know and I will address them.
First things first, for those of you who see this thread as a way to vent about how brawl+ has taken its general mechanics changes too far... I'm sorry, but I guess brawl+ just isn't for you. The general mechanics have been in place since the beginning of brawl+, and are really brawl+'s defining features - the whole reason it exists in the first place. Brawl+ is not simply a rebalanced brawl; it's practically a whole new game, where even if we didn't edit each character individually, would still see very different prevailing tactics than vbrawl. The specific character changes done after these global changes are done to balance the game and increase each character's depth of gameplay.
Which brings me to my second point: although a character may play "fine" without changes, if the character can be edited to be deeper and more enjoyable for those who main the character while still retaining balance, it should not be rejected. For example, falco's shine buff: Falco mains were willing to trade a nerf to his laser for this buff, in order to retain balance, and were in fact very enthusiastic about it. The shine change adds so much more depth to falco's game, making him a more interesting and fun character. Subjective? Of course. But seeing as the falco mains obviously agree with that statement, it can't really be argued. If the shine change broke falco, then we would not be able to implement it (or at least in its current form). You may not like seeing the way a character's moves work being completely altered, but unless it threatens game balance or if you main said character, you really shouldn't be complaining. I reiterate, falco's lasers were nerfed to facilitate the shine buff. We all have characters we hate to fight, but we shouldn't let that get in the way of making this game deeper or to cloud our judgments of balance.
Now, for the actually legit concerns... I would like to stress the point that brawl+ is not a finished project. We try new things. Sometimes they work. Sometimes they don't. Sometimes they just need more tweaking. I'll be the first to admit that we make mistakes: we're only human. Things may seem right at first glance, and then it's revealed after some testing that something isn't working properly. We're glad to hear feedback on these types of things, such as zelda's upB, sonic's dsmash, ivy's multiple upBs, the ICs' blizzard, or lucario's recovery, which I will address below.
Zelda's upB and Sonic's dsmash - It's not very hard to accidentally overbuff or overnerf something, and then still fail to correct it on the second try. Some things require quite a bit of testing and tweaking to get right. We will most certainly be reviewing these changes again and seeing about making them more punishable.
Ivy's multiple upBs - On this one, we were already aware of the problem. As has been mentioned, we're going to try to just give him a slightly bigger hop when he upBs and remove the infinite upBs, which seem to be causing more problems than anything.
ICs blizzard - This is new. Well... newish. I'm not entirely sure how this one got passed our radar, as it was in our list of things to go back to and fix, but somehow got forgotten in the midst of everything else. So thank you for bringing this back up to our attention.
Lucario's upB - I think the problem is with the speedup of the upB, itself, rather than being able to attack out of it. We gave the actual movement a speedup, which seems to have allowed lucario to gain more distance with it than before. The primary reasoning for the upB's inclusion was actually for the offensive options and variety it grants lucario, rather than as a recovery buff. Although it does indeed aid in recovery, that was not the fundamental reasoning for its inclusion. As such, it would be most reasonable to remove the portion that caused it to become too good as a recovery move rather than remove its other functions that served to make the move interesting.
If there are any specific complaints I missed please let me know and I will address them.
Blank Mauser
Smash Champion
With its lag, it didn't set up for anything. And even if it did, why use Usmash when you can use Uair, which is disjointed and is faster? Why not just grab and Uthrow? Why not Dtilt which is a way better approach?
Nobody ever wants to see the good uses of a move. As for being amazing with Sonic, like I said before thats a wrong mindset to take. I'd say I'm pretty amazing with Sonic though.
5ive
Smash Champion
Same can be said for Wolf. I would love to see Wolf's upward shine back.
I'm certain that at one point or another, someone looked at his shine, saw just how poor of a tool it is, and then suggestions were made to make it useful. The result? The creation of an amazing tool that brought depth to Falco while making his Shine useful in a non overpowered way.
Even if they did, bringing damage stale into play (I still have hope) would essentially bring it back to 2-1% damage after constantly spamming it.Bright Falco 3% Laz0rzs back
goodoldganon
Smash Champion
First off, for any huge project dealing with the balance of a game you don't have 80 some people balancing a 40 person cast. Too many people and ideas and nothing would ever get accomplished. There are usually about 20 (no more then 25+) balancing even the biggest competitive games out there. (WoW, Street Fighter, Soul Calibur, Halo, amongst other games) Anyway, to answer your question the Back Room consists of:
- Goodoldganon
- Shanus
- Almas
- The Cape
- Kupo
- ChiboSempai
- Yeroc
- MuBa
- Falco400
- Leafgreen486
- Dark_Sonic
- Paprika_Killer
- Mookie Rah
- Spunit262
- Alopex
- RyokoYaksa
- Foxy
- KishSquared
We have been trying to get the following people into the backroom, but as Almas highlighted earlier this hasn't exactly worked out.
- JCeasar
- SHeLL
- GHNeko
I may have missed some names, it's been a long weekend. I apologize if I have missed some names. Now, know that not everyone takes part in character balancing. For example, Spuinit262 pops in from time to time (or he did) with code updates and helped us work out any bugs. Amongst the Backroom, every character except a very select few have someone maining or seconding them.
Clever_Sleazoid
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Mar 9, 2008
- Messages
- 188
I don't want THAT ONE back, but I do want a revamped version.
XSilvenX
Smash Lord
Yeah so I want this thread closed...
Alright, so a lot of you people made amazing points and good counter arguments throughout. I have PM'd the majority of you guys who brought up strong counter points and explained why I held a particular opinion in detail. The reason for that is because I actually want this thread closed. The way it's going now it's just gonna be another plusery thread which is not needed. I originally made it to bring to light many of the crazy stuff that was put in so people can think twice about the legitimacy of many of them. Now I know I'm not 100% right and a lot of these ideas are not only coming from me so please get that straight but for the most part I hope a lot of you guys can see where we're coming from.
I think everyone understands that these are test builds and that's exactly why I found it worth my time to writeup this thread. I wanted to voice a lot of players' concerns on some of the things they were actually thinking about keeping in the game that scared a lot of Brawl+ advocates. I heard countless times that "Brawl+ is getting stupid" or "Brawl+ is is doomed" and stuff like that because of the crazy changes and I felt I needed to make a thread listing every major controversial issue.
Finally this thread will become useless as things are fixed and the OP is outdated. I feel the thread has more than done it's job and I would be happy if it was closed and used just for reference in the future because people made a lot of good points in this thread and it shouldn't be disregarded, but leaving the thread open any longer will just put more of a burden on the developers to check one more thread to see what people are saying. I don't want to add to their burden so once again if any mod is reading this just close the thread.
And like people stated earlier I would hate to start a string of threads where people complain about things with a huge list similar to this. That would be very detrimental to the smash workshop section of these boards and would be annoying to moderators.
Alright, so a lot of you people made amazing points and good counter arguments throughout. I have PM'd the majority of you guys who brought up strong counter points and explained why I held a particular opinion in detail. The reason for that is because I actually want this thread closed. The way it's going now it's just gonna be another plusery thread which is not needed. I originally made it to bring to light many of the crazy stuff that was put in so people can think twice about the legitimacy of many of them. Now I know I'm not 100% right and a lot of these ideas are not only coming from me so please get that straight but for the most part I hope a lot of you guys can see where we're coming from.
I think everyone understands that these are test builds and that's exactly why I found it worth my time to writeup this thread. I wanted to voice a lot of players' concerns on some of the things they were actually thinking about keeping in the game that scared a lot of Brawl+ advocates. I heard countless times that "Brawl+ is getting stupid" or "Brawl+ is is doomed" and stuff like that because of the crazy changes and I felt I needed to make a thread listing every major controversial issue.
Finally this thread will become useless as things are fixed and the OP is outdated. I feel the thread has more than done it's job and I would be happy if it was closed and used just for reference in the future because people made a lot of good points in this thread and it shouldn't be disregarded, but leaving the thread open any longer will just put more of a burden on the developers to check one more thread to see what people are saying. I don't want to add to their burden so once again if any mod is reading this just close the thread.
And like people stated earlier I would hate to start a string of threads where people complain about things with a huge list similar to this. That would be very detrimental to the smash workshop section of these boards and would be annoying to moderators.
Ohhh,so,you just want the buffs that you Like huh?
Explain more why do you dont wanna his Shine back. o.o'
XSilvenX
Smash Lord
Please stop posting debates in this thread, if anything carry them to their dedicated sections. Debating here is useless because the thread will be closed soon...if any mods are on. By the way Kuga your post earlier about the Falcos never asking for the shine was genius.
Arkaether
Smash Ace
You know what I want? A Gold version. That way people can stop whining about changes and just shut up and deal, and the metagame can actually develop (Oh my god what a revolutionary concept).
Just throwing that out there before the thread is closed.
Just throwing that out there before the thread is closed.
Clever_Sleazoid
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Mar 9, 2008
- Messages
- 188
I want his shine to hit up still. But his old shine was waaay too good and made him too much a monster, and hence why it was taken out.
I want his shine to hit up, but not be as useful as the old one was.
Also, I want the buffs that I like AFTER I test them and see how they work intensively, yes. Way to make yourself look obnoxious.
Blank Mauser
Smash Champion
Good things can grow from unexpected places. Never know until you try, which is how Brawl+ was started in the first place.
Andarel
Smash Apprentice
Arkaether, not going to happen until there's at least a decent level of satisfaction, which won't happen until there is enough ability to edit things without brute-forcing *coughthrowscough*.
Arkaether
Smash Ace
Yeah, I know it's not going to happen for a while yet. It'd be nice, though. And while we're on the topic, I'd like a unicorn, as well. A flying unicorn.
Dan_X
Smash Lord
QFT!!
I could not have put it better myself, excellent Leaf, excellent.
BBQ°
Smash Champion
Honestly if the codemakers for Brawl+ keep changing things to "balance" everything out, then Brawl+ will never be completed. I talked to some people, and they're like, "yeah brawl+ is cool but it will never do well on a large scale, so I probably will never take it seriously". This is because Brawl+ is constantly changing with all the buffs and nerfs, so how is anyone supposed to develop a metagame? Brawl+ codemakers need to wrap up what they are doing, forget about balancing the game (because that's impossible), and get realistic. If people want to get serious about getting Brawl+ as a tournament viable game then standards are going to be needed and we can't have standards if Brawl+ is an ever-changing game.
So basically I agree with the OP in that Brawl+ is getting out of hand with all the unnecessary changes, etc.
So basically I agree with the OP in that Brawl+ is getting out of hand with all the unnecessary changes, etc.
XSilvenX
Smash Lord
BBQ your post is appreciated but this has been stated many times already and I'm certain they know that. I'm hoping for a finalized 4.1 pretty soon so tournaments can go ahead and start up with confidence that things won't change.
Also please if there are any mods reading this, CLOSE THE THREAD ALREADY. It's getting too long and my point has been made. Refer to my earlier post.
Also please if there are any mods reading this, CLOSE THE THREAD ALREADY. It's getting too long and my point has been made. Refer to my earlier post.
Clever_Sleazoid
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Mar 9, 2008
- Messages
- 188
God, then all those stupid people missing out can wait UNTIL IT IS FINISHED.
RELEASING AN UNFINISHED "FINAL" VERSION IS JUST DUMB.
RELEASING AN UNFINISHED "FINAL" VERSION IS JUST DUMB.
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