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"Brawl+ is getting out of hand..." [MODERATORS PLEASE CLOSE!!!]

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Revven

FrankerZ
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It's impossible to convince Falco Mains,

Well,about Ivy Razor Leaf: i thing this need to be a bit slower,its TOO spamable right now,and for Lucario New Up-B,hmm,he has teh autosweetspot xD
If it went down to 1.4x, I think it would be fine, even 1.35x. Then remove the Up B buff to Ivy (even though all of his combos are DIable... -_-).

Lucario Up B just needs to be slowed down. Don't know about getting rid of its ASL, Phantom Wings said when he made the code that Lucario's Up B was write-protected. Meaning, untouchable to get rid of ASL. And who knows what would happen if we did get rid of ASL, he may just slide against the ledge like Ness and Lucas already do, which would be very very bad. Depends on if NASL will be easily editable to include Lucario and see what happens. Right now though, we can't simply do it, we need someone like Almas or PK to do it.

In other words, you guys need to be patient.
 

Big O

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I agree and think it has gotten out of hand. Some things were fine and didn't really need changing. I like stale moves, fast falling with the c-stick, and the way the ledge works in vBrawl. I was excited to see what the community could do to Brawl with extensive hacking. I loved all the extra features that came out of it like infinite replays, textures, triple jump fixes, no tripping and all that jazz. I hacked my Wii just to try it out. I tried 4.0 and really did not like where it was going. To be honest I felt that almost every change in general gameplay mechanics made was making it more like Melee. It really isn't surprising considering some of the first major codes were directional airdodging and L-canceling.

I play DK and he was mostly unaltered aside from a much faster fastfall and a shorter short hop. His up b is so much less intuitive without auto sweetspotting. It just doesn't grab the ledge until after the move is over and it just doesn't make sense. Changes like that were just unnecessary. Most aerials didn't need auto L-canceling. Hitstun and shieldstun didn't need to be so much higher. I remember people arguing for all of these changes for the sake of balance. Those things didn't balance the game. It just changed around the tier list. Some of the things put in like momentum which also came from Melee were actually pretty cool. I just feel that most of the other things were unnecessary changes. I think some of the major mechanics like hitstun shouldn't be globally changed. I would rather see Brawl+ be a rebalanced Brawl with some cool and interesting tweaks for all characters. As it is now it would be better to call it SSBB Melee style. I'm sure that's more fun for a lot of you guys but I think something more along the lines of a rebalanced Brawl with some fun tweaks and changes would appeal to a wider audience. SSBB Melee style isn't the kind of change I was looking forward to. I'm sure there would be room for both anyway with enough support.

Sorry if anyone is offended. I know a lot of you guys are sensitive to the whole Melee 2.0 thing. I just feel it is a valid criticism IHMO.
 

Revven

FrankerZ
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Big whining post
If you don't like anything about Brawl+ (the core mechanics) why bother posting feedback in this thread? Posts like that are just annoying and make people like you less, especially when Brawl+ has had all of that stuff for months and 90% of the people who like Brawl+ LIKE that stuff because it ADDS to the game. It is extremely necessary to have hitstun and shieldstun because otherwise it degenerates to a camp filled game, and I'm sorry if you like that type of game but, that isn't what Brawl+ is about.

DK is ****ing awesome, I cannot understand how a DK main like yourself would whine, DK is obviously way better. lrn2recover with him if you are having problems. He *****, I don't understand you, at all.

This thread wasn't about starting over or whatever, it's about KEY issues that need to be addressed before 4.1 is officially released. It's not about Brawl+ as a whole and why you or your friends don't like the gameplay mechanics put in the game.
 

lonelytraveler8

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 5, 2006
Messages
259
I'll admit, I didn't read every post. I did read the main post completely (minus Ivysaur's recovery explanation). From the OP, there's only one thing I disagree with. I don't think people who don't go to tournaments should be completely disregarded:

1) Some, like myself, are unable to go. I don't play Brawl competitively, for one. I also smash "competitively" with a select group of friends, and we typically play melee anyhow.

2) Everyone who gives input is someone who wants to enjoy the game. This is the weaker point, as, in my opinion, a well built competitive game will likely also be a well built casual game. Melee is the epitome of this.

This isn't addressed to anyone in particular. So please don't take it personally. I only wanted to address something that gets tossed around that really bothers me. I'm not an incompetent player. Far from it. I just can't attend tournaments right now. And I don't think I'm the only one in that situation. So, please, be more careful about what you say and have a little more respect for the community as a whole. I know the community is "saturated," but that's no reason to immediately judge someone as incompetent. Sorry for the random rant. I'll bring directly related Brawl+ material to my part of the conversation next time.

Edit: Before I get called a whiner, I only felt it necessary to say this because I already feel like I've been lumped into the "ignore this player" category and I've only just recently had the privilege of playing Brawl+ and thus have not been able to contribute yet. I do apologize if this was not the place to put this, though.
 

Yingyay

Smash Ace
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Dec 4, 2008
Messages
693
I'll admit, I didn't read every post. I did read the main post completely (minus Ivysaur's recovery explanation). From the OP, there's only one thing I disagree with. I don't think people who don't go to tournaments should be completely disregarded:

1) Some, like myself, are unable to go. I don't play Brawl competitively, for one. I also smash "competitively" with a select group of friends, and we typically play melee anyhow.

2) Everyone who gives input is someone who wants to enjoy the game. This is the weaker point, as, in my opinion, a well built competitive game will likely also be a well built casual game. Melee is the epitome of this.

This isn't addressed to anyone in particular. So please don't take it personally. I only wanted to address something that gets tossed around that really bothers me. I'm not an incompetent player. Far from it. I just can't attend tournaments right now. And I don't think I'm the only one in that situation. So, please, be more careful about what you say and have a little more respect for the community as a whole. I know the community is "saturated," but that's no reason to immediately judge someone as incompetent. Sorry for the random rant. I'll bring directly related Brawl+ material to my part of the conversation next time.
I kinda brought this up around page 3, and no one here thinks less of people who cant attend a tournament as to people who yell NERF or BUFF without any good reason. I think that it wouldve been better to say, people with a less biased opinion on the game and characters are the ones who provide better posts.
 

doom dragon 105

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 17, 2006
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1,487
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Miami
Too bad after all this buffing and nerfing Ike still is horrible xD

I partially agree with TC some of the buffs were unnecessary like Falcos shine and IC thing.

Certain characters get alot more buffs and other like my main Ike are pretty much untouched. We as a community should consider getting experts in each character on a staff to decide what needs to be done.
 

lonelytraveler8

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 5, 2006
Messages
259
I kinda brought this up around page 3, and no one here thinks less of people who cant attend a tournament as to people who yell NERF or BUFF without any good reason. I think that it wouldve been better to say, people with a less biased opinion on the game and characters are the ones who provide better posts.
Ha! Then I apologize for getting defensive.
 

Yingyay

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 4, 2008
Messages
693
Too bad after all this buffing and nerfing Ike still is horrible xD

I partially agree with TC some of the buffs were unnecessary like Falcos shine and IC thing.

Certain characters get alot more buffs and other like my main Ike are pretty much untouched. We as a community should consider getting experts in each character on a staff to decide what needs to be done.
Thing is though, certain characters are near impossible to buff without breaking them or making them worse.
Ike for example. His recovery is poop, his onstage performace requires mindgames most of the time as well. Buffing his recovery would make him a little too much. Making his moves faster would actually break him as well and he'll became a stronger version (and manlier) version of marth
 

Rudra

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Jul 12, 2008
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Bahamas
Nah, its just a mater of having people realize ALL their tools.
Im a Sheik main and i came to terms with that fact that her stilt got nerfed to heck AND her Fair doesnt kill like it used to. Maybe this will change maybe not, but if its for the sake of balance and wont make her a pain in da *** to use like it was in vBrawl then im for it.
You've come to terms that her tilts and fairs arent as effective as they used to be, and thats fine. However, they're still useful. Her tilts may not be able to combo to hell and back like they used to but they are still usable for setups and a few combos. Her Fair may not kill like it used to, but it can still set up for an edgeguard (one of her specialties) and kill at higher percents right? The point is that the aformentioned moves are still good, even if they have been nerfed.

I really can not understand what is wrong with making one of the very moves that define a Space Animal something more than a tool to reflect projectiles, especially when its not an overpowerful change to a relatively poor spacing tool...

one thing that gets on my nerve is how long the reflect a projectile effect last they need to shorten that...
Thats a first. :ohwell:
 

goodoldganon

Smash Champion
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Mar 17, 2008
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Cleveland, Ohio
*Read the topic*
*Agrees with some points, doesn't on others*

I'm not going to make a lengthy comment here, anyone who is mildly involved in this project knows my stance on changes. The fact is, we got excited when we started Smash God and go to the actual rebalancing of characters once our physics were in place. There have been a lot of bad changes made, many of us know that. But there have also been a lot of great changes made that have improved the metagame for that character and brought them up to par.

Give us time to go back through the changes and view the results from our first big 2 tournaments. What I would like to see is more well thought posts like the OP. Though not everything is true (lol CGs on CF) it is at least a start. Give us data (numbers are great and so are vids) if something is wrong. I apologize to those that aren't having fun with B+ now, I'll admit we have gotten out of hand. I can promise you that I will do what needs to be done to get us back on track.

You have to try something new to get something great and though not everything turned out great, there are some real diamonds. If you have any comments/questions/complaints feel free to PM me and we can talk. Just remember, you can't please everyone. When we finally get a final set, not everyone will be happy. But please test the sets and give us feedback. Thanks and have a good evening guys.
 

Big O

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If you don't like anything about Brawl+ (the core mechanics) why bother posting feedback in this thread? Posts like that are just annoying and make people like you less, especially when Brawl+ has had all of that stuff for months and 90% of the people who like Brawl+ LIKE that stuff because it ADDS to the game. It is extremely necessary to have hitstun and shieldstun because otherwise it degenerates to a camp filled game, and I'm sorry if you like that type of game but, that isn't what Brawl+ is about.

DK is ****ing awesome, I cannot understand how a DK main like yourself would whine, DK is obviously way better. lrn2recover with him if you are having problems. He *****, I don't understand you, at all.

This thread wasn't about starting over or whatever, it's about KEY issues that need to be addressed before 4.1 is officially released. It's not about Brawl+ as a whole and why you or your friends don't like the gameplay mechanics put in the game.
Lol okay. I came in here because I agree with the OP. I'm not complaining that DK sucks just because I think his recovery is stupid now. He is still better than most other characters but that is besides the point. I just said changes like that were examples of Brawl+ getting out of hand and mentioned what I would rather see it be. I never insulted you guys or insisted that you had to cater to my ideas. My post wasn't all about hating on Brawl+ as a whole and everything it stands for. It was about not liking where it's going. It was about questioning how they "fixed" certain problems. I do like some of what it did add as I mentioned, but I said things went a little overboard. I never said I hated Brawl+ at all.
 

goodoldganon

Smash Champion
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Certain things will never change about Brawl+. Though values can be tweaked things like:

-Dash Dancing
-Dash Canceling
-Higher gravities
-No ASL
-Hitstun
-Frozen WW and PS2
-and I'm sure a few others

Many of the mechanics are too ingrained into B+. If you have problems with those mechanics, feel free to express them, but also realize you will fall on deaf ears 99% of the time.
 

teh_spamerer

Smash Master
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Jan 8, 2006
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Good luck Mario
-Shine pulling in as opposed to pushing away. Falco combos enough already, not to mention his zoning game (via lasers) is amazing. Giving him an even easier way to start combos is a little bit of an overbuff some people think. I'm naturally against making move property changes unless it's ABSOLUTELY necessary which in this case it's obviously is not...changing it because it's "better" is the lamest excuse ever. There was nothing wrong with the original, it worked like it should. Why would any shine pull you in..?
I agree with almost everything you said except this. There was NEVER a reason to use Falco's shine the way it used to be. Pitiful damage and it resets the situation to neutral. While Falco does have good combos, his lasers just aren't good enough by themselves and he has very few other good moves.
 

abcool

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Oct 6, 2007
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871
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The Bahamas
I completely understand this and I think Brawl+ Version 4 is worse than Version 3.

What I don't understand is that the nerfed Jigglypuff's killing attacks (Fair, Rollout, Dash) and made Rest a 1 hit kill. Now all Jigglypuff does is up air rest. Theres nothing cool about that, even out the killing moves for gods sake.

Fox can now camp with lasers, is as fast as Sonic, and all of his moves do huge amount of damage and kill very early.
I agree with the jigglypuff comment, But i must say nothing has been altered about fox's lasers...he could have always camped in the game, the only difference is the stale move system..
 

Turbo Ether

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 12, 2006
Messages
3,601
If you have problems with those mechanics, feel free to express them, but also realize you will fall on deaf ears 99% of the time.
Which is why I generally don't participate in Brawl+ discussions, but this thread is interesting.
 

Big O

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Certain things will never change about Brawl+. Though values can be tweaked things like:

-Dash Dancing
-Dash Canceling
-Higher gravities
-No ASL
-Hitstun
-Frozen WW and PS2
-and I'm sure a few others

Many of the mechanics are too ingrained into B+. If you have problems with those mechanics, feel free to express them, but also realize you will fall on deaf ears 99% of the time.
I appreciate the upfront and polite response. Thanks for letting me know what will and won't change. I figured there was still room for discussion on some of those things but I was clearly mistaken. Thanks for the heads up too.
 

Plum

Has never eaten a plum.
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There has to be one key understanding with this thread, that when I feel like I don't see reading the posts of people complaining.

All of these changes are in public test builds.

The changes that are put into the builds are for experimental purposes.
The whole idea of the test builds is to get feedback and find out what is a good or bad idea.
You can't just sit and nag the WBR and anyone involved with the creation of the test builds like everything you see in there is permanent.

At the same time, if you actually look at every post in the Workshop regarding the Plussery (something I can claim I keep up with very well) then you will understand how split the community is on changes. For every person who complains about a change, there is always another who argues for why it has to stay.

Take the infinite Up B change to Ness and Ivy.
When I first saw it, it looked like a fine change, and when I actually went and tested it with my friends I changed my mind; I felt that those changes held the hand of the player too much.
NASL put strategy back into recovering that Melee and Smash 64 had. Aim to sweetspot the edge and risk edgehogging, or go above the edge and risk being attacked out of your Up B.
In my opinion the buffs to recovery is going in the opposite direction of this, not to a great degree by any means but it is something I don't want to see happen.
Ivy was a fine character even with a poor recovery, and she had ways to overcome it; stall out the invincibility frames with Dair, Razor Leaf the edge free, Up B. Problem solved. She didn't really need a change.
Ness had the same exact problem since Smash 64, and was able to work around it just fine in those games. DJC helped him get around it because his combo game was that much stronger, and while I don't want to see DJC back in the game, if he is really such a bad character like some players complain I would rather see him buffed in other areas then some Up B change that in the end doesn't solve anything.

So I can give my reasons for why it doesn't belong in the game, but as soon as I do another 5 players (who more than likely are the "dis is broked and dis needz buffs, Imma not give resons y but u gotsa do it neways" type of people) say that the character needs it. I can do my best to give some educated response to the test builds, but when it gets flooded by the other responses then you have to imagine that it becomes hard to sort out what is actually good responses.

Also, if so many people have complaints then why don't I see these people in the IRC talking about it? Why is it that all I ever see in the IRC is people playing the word scramble game, or talking about how to set something up, or just chatting? Why don't I see these people in the Weekly Build thread, and giving their concrete evidence as to why this is broken? I have only seen one person go out and try to prove a point and that was Guru with Ivy's Razor Leaf being a bit too fast.
 

Bladefist137

Smash Cadet
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Aug 30, 2008
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55
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The Netherlands
While some people here made good points on what is going on with Brawl+, to starting massively QQing about stuff ain't gonna work out this way :S.

If we gonna keep doing this, soon more and more people will make more hate/QQ threads to just ***** about every single **** thing they don't agree with and then the whole board gets flooded by that crap >.<
If you think I'm overreacting here, i'm playing WoW for a long time now and i have seen how unbelievable ******** and unreasonable some (alot) people can be when one/more change(s) got made and they were absolutely not pleased with it.

And what they then do is flood the forums with their QQing crap and start a online fight with almost everyone that disagrees with them and blames the game developers for breaking their class or other crap they are not pleased with (you should visit a WoW website and see it for yourself) and then literally the whole point of posting stuff on the forums is pointless because some god**** FLAME WARZZZ is going on there and they WILL try to drag you into their QQing crap aswell.

So people what I want to say is, Don't let this happen to this board aswell guys, I know some changes are unreasonable as stated by most people but all of this can STILL change as this ain't WoW, This is BRAWL+ something that can be changes anytime, There is a reason why the codesets still has BETA in it and they mean with that is that they would be get some (usefull) feedback aswell as how the hell are they suppose to balance everything then? :S

As stated before, you don't have a Brawl expect/hardcore player for your opinion to count and don't be afraid to say anything either, you wont get gayly FLAMED (in most cases) for just saying something.
The people on this board are very friendly and you can just normally talk with them like real people lol as long as you don't just say random crap (which some people fail to see -.-) about stuff you don't know about.

That was about everything i wanted to say and with that i will end my long *** post :p
Just my 2 cents x)

P.S I know my spelling sucks arse so don't complain about that.
 

MK26

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http://www.mediafire.com/?zj2oddmz0yy for ZSS fix!
Thing is though, certain characters are near impossible to buff without breaking them or making them worse.
Ike for example. His recovery is poop, his onstage performace requires mindgames most of the time as well. Buffing his recovery would make him a little too much. Making his moves faster would actually break him as well and he'll became a stronger version (and manlier) version of marth
If we shouldn't make his moves faster, make them stronger. This goes for all the heavyweights. I saw a list around here of characters that seem to make up a sort of 'top tier', and none of those were heavyweights. None of those were even close.

I applaud what the WBR has done with Brawl+. All in all, they have kept a level head in dealing with things, and they have made good changes that none of us outsiders would have dreamed of. However, several small things (many of which have already been stated here) irk me a little bit, but that's to be expected with such a large and diversified list of changes. (Ganondorf's Down-B Jump Recovery and scar jumping come to mind)

What's being done is great, but Brawl+ is failing in one crucial aspect. Though the intent was to make every character tournament viable, that doesn't seem to have happened. It could be simply a collective lack of experience, but I see a very small minority of characters dominating and a vast number just not getting much exposure.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not ranting that my character sucks (note the icon), but what the Brawl+ project needs is a focus. We're adding things in the hopes of attaining the idea of character balance, but what does that mean? That all characters are equal? That everybody can be counterpicked to hell and back? That any character can beat any character on any given day? Brawl+ needs a concise, clear mission statement, something that the community can look at and say "this is what we all want out of this." Something that the coders and WBRers can look at each time they make a change and ask "does what we're doing help us get closer to this?". Something that we can cite when a newcomer or flamer or curious Smash lover asks "what are you trying to turn Super Smash Bros. Brawl into?" We don't need to restart. We need to refocus.

======

And now for something completely different: should I threadcromance the stage discussion to talk about the WWR, or is there another place where it's being discussed?
 

CloneHat

Smash Champion
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Jan 18, 2009
Messages
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Montreal, Quebec
A pointless buff is proposed. You disagree. The argument carries for pages, and unless you fight it out, the buff will usually get implemented, due to increasingly drastic ways either side uses to vindicate its argument. IMO, take out lots of this new hitbox stuff. My outlook has been: "It makes them better, but they don't need to be better." Buffs should be used more to balance out the roster, not give them tweaks just for mundane reasons. In other Smash games, we couldn't make anything better; if someone had a bad recovery, you just have to deal with it. Zelda and Lucario's recoveries had nothing wrong, they just weren't the greatest. For now, I'd say stick to 4.0, have lots of tourneys, and have the players point out issues that arose/were spammed.
 

cman

Smash Ace
Joined
May 17, 2008
Messages
593
What's being done is great, but Brawl+ is failing in one crucial aspect. Though the intent was to make every character tournament viable, that doesn't seem to have happened. It could be simply a collective lack of experience, but I see a very small minority of characters dominating and a vast number just not getting much exposure.
The lack of lots of play does not mean that they are necessarily underpowered. Many characters just aren't very popular. For example, samus is very good now, and she is decently well balanced, but still doesn't see much play, partly because not much has changed about her character.
 

Andarel

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Apr 16, 2009
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New York City
When tiers and tournament success are defined solely by character popularity, then something's going pretty right. Characters aren't getting much exposure because...well, not all that many people are playing B+. Chars that got insanely huge buffs (Squirtle, Falcon, Ivysaur, Fox) see a good showing because they're much more fun now. Characters that are similar (Pit, Snake) or just not as flashy or fun-filled (Yoshi, Ike) see less play but are still pretty ****ed good.

We're going to have to just live with that.
 

~CPU~

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Jan 31, 2009
Messages
76
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Georgia
When tiers and tournament success are defined solely by character popularity, then something's going pretty right. Characters aren't getting much exposure because...well, not all that many people are playing B+. Chars that got insanely huge buffs (Squirtle, Falcon, Ivysaur, Fox) see a good showing because they're much more fun now. Characters that are similar (Pit, Snake) or just not as flashy or fun-filled (Yoshi, Ike) see less play but are still pretty ****ed good.

We're going to have to just live with that.
take out al the overused chars and make people play with underused ones until they become mega ownage
 

Dan_X

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
1,335
Location
Boston, MA
Regarding Falco, and yes... I read the ENTIRE OP...

Falco shine was brought in due to the falco community. Sonic usmash was taken out due to the Sonic community. If you want to take issue with the new shine, yell at the Falco mains who want it in.

As for testing, thats why we have these tournaments, so that we can test new things.
Many of the Falco mains, including myself, feel that the shine change is a great addition to Falco... I'll further explain later.

I have not heard anything about freezing Yoshi Story since Orca was trying to get it frozen awhile ago.
I'm confused. I never said I want Yoshi Story frozen. I did however say that I wouldn't mind having Pictochat frozen, as I find it amazing that it's allowed for tournament play. Way too much BS happens on that map, and it's otherwise a joke.

An ideal fighting game, since I think that is actually what the community is trying to create, should have characters use all of their moves. All of the moves in the game were created for a certain purpose: the developers don't create them for professional gamers, but for the average buyer (definition: someone who will innocently play the game the way it was supposed to be played, trusting every single move in the game). Here in smashboards, we make a dissection of the game. We study every case wisely, and take what's best in order to use it for competitive play.

It's obvious that some moves should be better than others, that some should be over-used and others situational, but there's a point where situational is ridiculously bad. By that I speak of Falco's shine. You can use it to reflect projectiles. Wow. That's it? It has so much lag, you aren't able to follow it with anything once you reflect a laser/arrow/etc.. Many people say Falco is too good to have a buff. That's complete bogus. How do we even know that he's "too good"? Do we have a big number of reliable tournament results to tell us so? No.

You said that "Falco combos enough". Sorry, but no too. Falco has a very shallow combo game which consists of abusing dair and utilt, and follow it with bair and nair. That's not a bad situation, I may agree. Most characters have gotten a lot better with the new physics, and most of the characters tweaks have been given to mid/low tier characters. But the fact that Falco was top tier in vBrawl doesn't mean he is still going to remain awesome in Brawl+, because what we have here seems like a whole new game. How many buffs has he received since vBrawl? Almost none except with u-tilt speed-up, and other changes. Oh and by the way, nerfing the lasers (3% -> 2%) compensates a LOT the shine change, you have no clue how often Falcos use it, and how much damage they deal with it.

Falco still has a huge weakness that balances everything out: recovery. One of the easiest characters to gimp if you can predict his side-b, and up-b trajectory, and most pros can.

Using Skip2MaLoo's concept, Falco is a dangerous bird of prey onstage, and a helpless lamb offstage.
Great post! I agree 100%!

This. Falco's shine was nothing more than a mediocre spacing tool in VBrawl, and it was incredibly punishable in contrast to the little reward upon actually landing it. Now with the increased speed of Brawl+ and character buffs going left and right, I cant understand why his shine buff is a bad thing. It only adds more variety to his already shallow combo game and finally makes his Shine more than just a poor spacing tool. Hell, its not even remotely OP or anything since the opponent can always DI enough to prevent themselves from falling prey to combos/kills, and this is the case (even moreso) should the shine be spaced poorly.

@ Yingyay: . While his aerials will still be used to start/maintain/end combos, Falco wont always have to rely on them to start them at least (Lasers>follow up aside). Dtilt (and Ftilt imo) are actually more useful than his old shine was.
Again, great post, I agree entirely!

I'm sure Orca will come to explain to all of you the potential and usefulness of the new shine. I gotta go... Good night.
Here I am... :p

First of all, you can either read my New Shine proposal, found in my Falco+ thread here, or you can read my upcoming rant.

It seems the new goal of Brawl+ is to disregard the balance decisions Nintendo/Hal/whoever the hell developed this game has laid out and override them just because some random complains about it.
For one, none of this matters AT ALL because said game was "balanced" around entirely different game properties. Simply put, Brawl+ is increasingly different from vBrawl, and the same "balances" that worked for vBrawl don't translate well into Brawl+. Because of this, we are responsible, we have to step in. Let's think of this in terms of hitstun for a moment. Characters in vBrawl weren't necessarily designed to combo, as there was no hitstun (or so little anyway), now that there is hitstun, we have to make it so each character works the best that he/she can with it. For some characters such as Captain Falcon and Fox the transition was simple, they adjusted nicely. Their moves naturally worked well with each other, with this new found hitstun. Other characters didn't have it so easy, and some were changed and changed again. For example, we worked on DDD and Bowser to give them more comboing potential. Brawl is NOT Brawl+, we have to make sure that what we implement works well with the entire cast. Silven, perhaps you've forgotten that these developers over at Nintendo, these "balancers" also incorporated tripping? They didn't design this game with a competitive mindset in any way, shape, or form... With that said, why then would you side with how the developers designed a move? Their "balancing" was so "amazing" in vBrawl that there were Locks, no brainer CGs, Grab Release Chains, and otherwise nearly unplayable characters. Tell me, how realistic is it for a Captain Falcon or Bowser, whatever, to beat a Snake or MK in a tournament, and win the entire tournament in vBrawl? Surely the game is built upon Nintendo's stunning design, their amazing balancing ways. If that's the case, each character is surely tournament friendly, right?

Falco

-Shine pulling in as opposed to pushing away. Falco combos enough already, not to mention his zoning game (via lasers) is amazing. Giving him an even easier way to start combos is a little bit of an overbuff some people think. I'm naturally against making move property changes unless it's ABSOLUTELY necessary which in this case it's obviously is not...changing it because it's "better" is the lamest excuse ever. There was nothing wrong with the original, it worked like it should. Why would any shine pull you in..?
I highly disagree with you. I too go to tournaments, though I haven't played a Brawl+ (I will be soon) I can say that there's no reason to outright reject his new shine.

Falco's combo game in Brawl+ is somewhat shallow, in addition, his uTilt is not always the most reliable move-- especially when the enemy is behind you, as it will not afflict them, failing to throw them up. In addition, uTilt is one of his best set-ups for his combo game. Having a new and improved shine fixes quite a few things for Falco. For one, it gives him another set-up for combos, which is ENTRIELY DIable. If the enemy DIs correctly, Falco may still be able to hit them with an attack, but he will not be able to follow up (and combo) as nicely as he would have with his uTilt. It facilitates an expanded combo game. You can do single hopped (short or full) shines to pull the enemy back in, perhaps from a combo, and continue the combo with use of your 2nd jump. It get's creative, and more skillful. His original shine was so terrible that it served almost no purpose beyond reflecting. It was VERY punishable, and didn't work as well as a spacing as his lasers do. His new shine comes out twice as slow, which makes it EVEN more difficult to land, however, now you can work into it and be rewarded for actually landing it. What was the reward for landing it before? I've been playing Falco since the game's launch, and I can say it didn't put Falco in a better position, even when connecting with the enemy, as you couldn't follow up at all (or hardly at all). There's simply NOTHING wrong with changing his shine. Just because the devs did one thing doesn't mean we shouldn't do another. After all, it was their developing and balancing that left vBrawl a joke, why should they be taken seriously?

Falco's combo game consists of this. Utilt to Utilt again (if possible) to Bair, Bair, Bair, Bair, and if your enemy DI's poorly you may, though rarely, execute a Dair spike. His Bair can be DIed away from, and in most cases, the stun isn't long enough to effectively link the attack. Most characters in midst of this attempted combo can neutral air before a 2nd Bair hits. Meaning, in some cases it doesn't work very well at all, unlike Mario's Uair chase, or Marths Fair, or Falcon's Uair. The other half of Falco's combo game ends in Dairs, which are entirely techable-- which ends the combo. For example, a Falco might uTilt, uTilt, Bair, then Dair the enemy. If your enemy fails to tech it might be useful, however, at the very least, it's no true combo to begin with.

Falco's new Shine is more difficult to land than ever, and is more rewarding to land, it's a good trade off. It's a great punishing tool. It also gives Falco the opportunity to play differently, which is by no means a bad thing. For example, you can be a slight bit more in your face, however, even still the shine can be blocked much more easily. He can however mind game the enemy into a situation where his shine will punish them... which is nice.

Another reason that the new shine is good, and fit for Brawl+ and Falco, is because it adds to his relatively weak edge game. Against many characters, Falco can use his Dtilt at the edge, and its effectiveness ranges with the character he's fighting. Oftentimes it's very punishable, as it's range isn't that great, and the enemy can hit you pretty easily (generally with the recovery attack hitboxes) In general, it's not the best edge guard, and Falco is instead better off spamming his lasers, or jumping off the stage and attempting a Dair spike. The new shine is more rewarding for the ledge game in that it can punish poorly executed recoveries. For example, if Fox shoots up past the ledge, he'll get pulled in by the shine. Is this unfair? No. A player recovering in a poor fashion SHOULD be punished anyway, so this is fine. A certain hitbox, and good timing, with the shine will result in a scenario where by the recovering character will be sent away at an angle, not pulled back to Falco, which makes for an exciting edgegame because it's a sort of "spike" so to speak. It often knocks the opponent away from the stage quickly and at and angle. However, the enemy can potentially return from this too.

In the end, Falco's new shine means more options. More options is not a bad thing. It just diversifies him a bit. There's more to learn / master with him. It's important in Brawl+ that we maintain character weakness, if not all of them, most of them. Certain obvious weaknesses have to be dulled down. For example, Bowser, and Ike were very slow in vBrawl, and otherwise no where near as useful as they are now in Brawl+. Their weakness came in the form of slow attacks, and longer landing lag. This landing lag made many characters terrible. Obviously we need to speed up the slow characters, no matter how much we speed them up they won't be as fast or combo friendly as fast characters like Fox anyway. Falco's new shine does not drastically change him. It has not done away with any of his inherent weaknesses. His off the edge game is shaky, and as others have pointed out, he has a crappy recovery. His firebird has terrible distance, and it has plenty of start up lag with which to punish. His phantasm is easily halted by projectiles, which can spell death many times, and it's otherwise predictable-- easy to counter. He's still not the most combo heavy character, and never will be. He still relies heavily on his now weaker lasers, but can combo more efficently / edgegard more efficiently with his new shine.

There's NOTHING wrong with his new shine. There's no reason not to have it.

here was nothing wrong with the original, it worked like it should. Why would any shine pull you in..?
I don't know, I'd consider it trash. No reward for connect, VERY PUNISHABLE, almost to the point where one should never use it, and not effective at edge guarding.

Why would any shine pull you in..?
Why wouldn't one? Is there a certain way a shine should act? Falco's shine in Brawl is the first shine to be thrown out, not just activated around himself. It's different. Why not make it a staple of Falco? Why not make it a more defining feature, while keeping Falco's weakness in tact, and making the shine more difficult to land yet more rewarding in the process?

In the end, you can't say that Falco is "too good" already, because there's no conclusive evidence backing that notion. Don't dare tell me about vBrawl Falco, and his torunament success. This is Brawl+, and without a boatload more tournaments, you can't prove anything. Other characters have gotten SO MUCH BETTER than their vBrawl incarnations, where is Brawl+'s Falco has fallen behind many characters--- no longer is this the case with a better uTilt and better shine. There's simply nothing wrong with Falco's new shine.
 

skstylez

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 3, 2009
Messages
357
Location
California
I disagree with falco's shine change, i wouldn't even call it a combo starter. the angles are very diverse, and it takes skill to follow up. I am glad they made it useful (no, i do not main falco). I have seen incredible tournaments in B+, and even if falcon "CAN" (which is what DI is for) be chain grabbed, he still does very well in brackets. I don't have much trouble with his physics and i main falcon. Honestly, i think the problem with this thread is you notted all the bad stuff and forgot to mention what works and what doesnt work for what reason.

I agree with all your suggestions at the bottom except for grab escape. Anyone that thinks B+ should start over needs to study coding and do it themselves.

And comparing Brawl+ tournies to regulars, + exceeds on so many levels. Brawl u see the same few characters: snake, falco, and.... oh yea , metaknight. + you see pretty much whatever character the person likes, and how well they use them is outstanding... so for me, + is fine and i like where it's going. (and + is a lot more interesting to watch...)
 

~CPU~

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 31, 2009
Messages
76
Location
Georgia
can somebody please explain to me the reason for making robs side-b cover the distance of about 100 final destinations?
 

cman

Smash Ace
Joined
May 17, 2008
Messages
593
can somebody please explain to me the reason for making robs side-b cover the distance of about 100 final destinations?
It was a side effect of the momentum code, and no one saw a need to remove it.
 

Rocann

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 25, 2008
Messages
1,317
Location
bustin 5 knots wind whippin out my coat
I think Brawl+ people trying to turn this into the standard and/or hosting Brawl+ events on the same day as normal Brawl events is bad for the community.
Inui, there are tournaments every weekend. There's nothing else we can do. Besides, the community in the end is about people having fun and people will go where they have more fun, whether it's for the people or the game. It isn't that B+ "steals" attendance as some like to think... talk to the people that make the choice to go to those tournaments and tell them that them having more fun and enjoying themselves is bad for the "community" (why do I keep wanting to put "wallet" here?) and you can imagine the response.

Something I said in the chat last night; the game is great. But you coders REALLY think you can just keep making changes, big or small, every few days until you're ready for a "final" one to let sit out for 6 months? That's really REALLY not efficient, and think about it, it's the same problem makers of these games do that don't allow competitivity. They change it til the end and that's it; there's no real time for testing these changes. Instead of thinking you know everything and letting something sit for 6 months after it hasn't sat at all is ridiculous. Monthly codesets are the way to go. You can't expect to have a product that can survive for half a year after never really testing it in the first place. You might think, "well what progress can we make with that sort of pacing?" IT'S NOT ABOUT PROGRESS. The game is fine as it is! Stop making drastic changes to moves that don't need it just because you can and unknown players wished it so. That's what it boils down to.
 

Sukai

Smash Champion
Joined
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Messages
2,899
Location
turn around....
Okay, I understand that this is a legit thread of criticism, but it's entirely wrong to bash on a nightly build, it's a beta, a temporary, a test, half of me is wondering why was a nightly build used in a tournament? I'm sure shanus made it clear that nightly builds are not tournament standard, so of course there were gonna be issues!
However, the other half understands, because it is a nightly build, such feedback is required more than ever, and solid tournament results was just what the WBR was asking for, so they'd know what to improve or develop on. It's nice and all that the "pros" finally decided to put their two cents in the mix, but seriously, where were you guys before? I recall several things concerning an experienced player discussing changes, but their claims and grounds for them were as obscure as the "wifi mains" Not to mention that it's not as if you guys were super active before. I find it a bit arbitrary to come to the community and just start *****ing in detail when you have never done so before, the WBR isn't a perfect marvel of geniuses who rank single digits in tourneys on the dailys and people have to understand that comments are coming from all directions, and as a nightly build is supposed to do, such suggestions are implemented for testing purposes, and feedback is always encouraged, recommended and appreciated.
Where were you "pros"?

You also have to understand that code composition is not a basic little ordeal, these people work hard to get these codes to function the way people want them to, and I see here is sudden negativity. Now don't misunderstand me, I agree with most of these points, but you shine them in such a negative light over these people, it's just plain mean. These people work hard for free, show some subtlety! If you "pros" contributed more to the community earlier, this thread wouldn't exist, because it would be unnecessary. These guys can quit right now and walk away, nothing is stopping them. Again, you made good points, but stop scolding these guys as if you've been telling them for months.

It's a nightly build, used for testing.
Testing
Not high level tournaments.
And even so, if your suggestions pull so much credentials, then suggest more often and elaborately.
All the same, this isn't "pro city" EVERYONE has a say in the matter, bash them all you want, it's a community, not an exclusive club of prestige.
 

PanzerOceania

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 2, 2008
Messages
640
Location
Salem, Oregon USA
Okay, I understand that this is a legit thread of criticism, but it's entirely wrong to bash on a nightly build, it's a beta, a temporary, a test, half of me is wondering why was a nightly build used in a tournament? I'm sure shanus made it clear that nightly builds are not tournament standard, so of course there were gonna be issues!
However, the other half understands, because it is a nightly build, such feedback is required more than ever, and solid tournament results was just what the WBR was asking for, so they'd know what to improve or develop on. It's nice and all that the "pros" finally decided to put their two cents in the mix, but seriously, where were you guys before? I recall several things concerning an experienced player discussing changes, but their claims and grounds for them were as obscure as the "wifi mains" Not to mention that it's not as if you guys were super active before. I find it a bit arbitrary to come to the community and just start *****ing in detail when you have never done so before, the WBR isn't a perfect marvel of geniuses who rank single digits in tourneys on the dailys and people have to understand that comments are coming from all directions, and as a nightly build is supposed to do, such suggestions are implemented for testing purposes, and feedback is always encouraged, recommended and appreciated.
Where were you "pros"?

You also have to understand that code composition is not a basic little ordeal, these people work hard to get these codes to function the way people want them to, and I see here is sudden negativity. Now don't misunderstand me, I agree with most of these points, but you shine them in such a negative light over these people, it's just plain mean. These people work hard for free, show some subtlety! If you "pros" contributed more to the community earlier, this thread wouldn't exist, because it would be unnecessary. These guys can quit right now and walk away, nothing is stopping them. Again, you made good points, but stop scolding these guys as if you've been telling them for months.

It's a nightly build, used for testing.
Testing
Not high level tournaments.
And even so, if your suggestions pull so much credentials, then suggest more often and elaborately.
All the same, this isn't "pro city" EVERYONE has a say in the matter, bash them all you want, it's a community, not an exclusive club of prestige.
well said knux I couldn't have put it better myself.
 

Dan_X

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
1,335
Location
Boston, MA
Okay, I understand that this is a legit thread of criticism, but it's entirely wrong to bash on a nightly build, it's a beta, a temporary, a test, half of me is wondering why was a nightly build used in a tournament? I'm sure shanus made it clear that nightly builds are not tournament standard, so of course there were gonna be issues!
However, the other half understands, because it is a nightly build, such feedback is required more than ever, and solid tournament results was just what the WBR was asking for, so they'd know what to improve or develop on. It's nice and all that the "pros" finally decided to put their two cents in the mix, but seriously, where were you guys before? I recall several things concerning an experienced player discussing changes, but their claims and grounds for them were as obscure as the "wifi mains" Not to mention that it's not as if you guys were super active before. I find it a bit arbitrary to come to the community and just start *****ing in detail when you have never done so before, the WBR isn't a perfect marvel of geniuses who rank single digits in tourneys on the dailys and people have to understand that comments are coming from all directions, and as a nightly build is supposed to do, such suggestions are implemented for testing purposes, and feedback is always encouraged, recommended and appreciated.
Where were you "pros"?

You also have to understand that code composition is not a basic little ordeal, these people work hard to get these codes to function the way people want them to, and I see here is sudden negativity. Now don't misunderstand me, I agree with most of these points, but you shine them in such a negative light over these people, it's just plain mean. These people work hard for free, show some subtlety! If you "pros" contributed more to the community earlier, this thread wouldn't exist, because it would be unnecessary. These guys can quit right now and walk away, nothing is stopping them. Again, you made good points, but stop scolding these guys as if you've been telling them for months.

It's a nightly build, used for testing.
Testing
Not high level tournaments.
And even so, if your suggestions pull so much credentials, then suggest more often and elaborately.
All the same, this isn't "pro city" EVERYONE has a say in the matter, bash them all you want, it's a community, not an exclusive club of prestige.
QFT! Thanks! You've summed up much of what I was going to in my text posts on this thread...
 

Arkaether

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 18, 2009
Messages
680
Location
North Carolina
Alright! Great! Time for me to talk about how I feel about this project, which of course will be ignored and deemed the exact same as the other hundreds of opinions which have been stated and will be stated. But that's what you get when you have a community-based project. It's sad when the best way you have to call attention to your post is to state that nobody will pay attention to your post. Also, disclaimer: I have actually read the OP in its entirety and all the insane ramblings of other posters in the 8 (as of now) pages. (By the way, "insane ramblings" is meant in a joking manner and not as a serious derogatory term. Just making sure everybody knows that.)

Anyway, the idea of a democracy is that a million crazed monkeys is somehow more intelligent than one learned man. The idea of a monarchy is that a single biased madman is somehow more intelligent than a million hardworking men with common sense. My point? Have the community propose ideas, and any idea that is voted in by the general populace with a decent amount of support (say, perhaps, at least 1/3 supporters or something similar) will be reviewed and ultimately determined by the WBR. Have the WBR consist of one or two of the best players of each character, or just the best players in general, who will have the ultimate and final, irrefutable say in each idea. So basically, I'm trying to turn this into a government. Why? Because that's really the only true way to organize a very very large community. What with all these complaints and talks flying about willy-nilly, with new and bad players complaining about combos that they could escape with simple DI, we need organization most of all.

Now, as to the character-specific buffs. I'm not really a conservative. However, I'm also not a foaming-at-the-mouth rabid Sakurai hater. I like what he did, I just didn't like some of the physics. Now, as for what some of the Brawl+ changes are? ZSS Fsmash buff at the expense of Forward-B? Seriously? Why? What ZSS main honestly goes out of their way to use Fsmash instead of Forward-B? However, Falco shine buff? That's what I'm talking about. Falco's shine is a totally worthless move. It is absurdly situational to the point that using it requires conscious effort. It is on my list of utterly useless moves, others of which are Mario FLUDD, Jigglypuff Dtilt, and Jigglypuff Sing. I support buffing these moves, since they are moves which are in need of buffs. Sonic Usmash buff? What in the name of sweet mother-loving tap-dancing Edgar Allen Poe is the need? Usmash is not worthless, despite the legions of haters; it has a HUGE hitbox, lasts for quite a while, and works wonders for anti-air. Don't go change-crazy and start beating at it with YOU MUST CHANGE sticks. Go change-crazy against moves that need change. Not moves that don't need change. Speed things up. Slow things down. I don't care, people more qualified than me are making those decisions. Cause a major and drastic change in the playstyle of a character that I play? Now I'm suddenly caring, and caring quite a bit.

I do know that nothing I say will be taken particularly to heart, and that I am not furthering the community or the will to change through my words. However, to state my opinion is the beginning of change, and it is my hope that you will take this vain, deluded, unimportant, worthless 09'er's opinion and perhaps actually consider my points.
 

cobaltblue

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 8, 2007
Messages
455
Reading this topic. The definition of beta needs to be reviewed by some.

Agree with points from both TC and Knux.
 

cman

Smash Ace
Joined
May 17, 2008
Messages
593
Anyway, the idea of a democracy is that a million crazed monkeys is somehow more intelligent than one learned man. The idea of a monarchy is that a single biased madman is somehow more intelligent than a million hardworking men with common sense. My point? Have the community propose ideas, and any idea that is voted in by the general populace with a decent amount of support (say, perhaps, at least 1/3 supporters or something similar) will be reviewed and ultimately determined by the WBR. Have the WBR consist of one or two of the best players of each character, or just the best players in general, who will have the ultimate and final, irrefutable say in each idea. So basically, I'm trying to turn this into a government. Why? Because that's really the only true way to organize a very very large community. What with all these complaints and talks flying about willy-nilly, with new and bad players complaining about combos that they could escape with simple DI, we need organization most of all.
This reminds to say something that I have been meaning to for a while. The wbr NEEDS experts on every single character. It can't just have several good people who each use a lot of different characters. I don't know how many, or exactly who, is in the wbr, but it seems to be around 10-15, which is not nearly enough. If I'm mistaken, and there are actually a lot, it would be nice to have a list of the all the people in the wbr.
 
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