"Brawl+ is getting out of hand..." [MODERATORS PLEASE CLOSE!!!]

[Almas]

Let's take talk away from any links to the apartheid. By the way, you misquoted me at some point Skip. I never mentioned my opinions on any specific changes.

I'm sorry that you're enjoying the game less, but you have to appreciate the difficulties. Given a flood of opinions, you cannot tell which is more useful when they are all presented in the same form.

 

[Revven]

Heres what I think shouldve been done with Brawl+ nightly releases.

1) Should focus on ONE character and one alone. That way we can get all the news about whats cool and what aint cool.

2) Focus on one gameplay changing element. (gravity and such if needed) that way we can test out our characters and report what we find on the character boards without the need for asking for buffs and nerfs.

3) DONT restart B+. The coders have worked hard to get to this point and its not like EVERYTHING is flat out messed up. Captain Falcon is awesome, the chaingrabs are due to the fact that hitstun was added and theres little to do against that without changing the game engine.

4) More reliable testers giving suggestions. Now im not saying that because you dont have a combo vid on youtube that your oppinon isnt worth it, im saying that we should listen to people who suggest things that are fair and balanced. Not the whole "ZOMG ___________ needs more speed because ______ smash attack that can kill at 50% is too hard to hit with". The backroom should look at ideas test them out and if they are ridiculous then dont add it, or if you dont know weither its good or not, talk to some players you know. Its a community project right?

1) wut?
2) Already did that, months ago, you missed the boat on this if you just came here in March/April (Though we can go back over it if people seriously are seeing problems with gravity for some characters).
3) We aren't going to.
4) Hey, for awhile all we had were people who supposedly mained someone and said they were pretty good with'em. We didn't have pros like NL way back in Feb. or March testing ****. So we relied on who we had, you can't really expect to force better players into Brawl+.

The thing that annoys ME is everyone in EVERY Brawl+ thread comes into it and posts something like this EVERY. DAY.

"Hey! X character is X and ***** X so nerf him please, kthxbi." "Hey! Fix this problem! Fox's Dair is so broken even though you can SDI it and avoid a lot of the stuff Fox has! AND even though he can be combo'd really badly and gimped offstage SO easily!" "HEY BUFF IKE BCUZ I SAID SO BCUZ LOOK AT THE PICTURE IN THE BOTTOM LEFT. SEE? I MAIN IKE!"

It isn't fun to read endless posts about nothing but buff X character and nerf Y characer because said player isn't playing right or isn't very good at all. Basically, no real meaty feedback and just people focusing on the future is annoying.

 

[GHNeko]

Not enough testing happens imo.

That's the general jist of it. It doesnt matter how much bad advice you get, if its bad, tests and results WILL show.

We need to take our time with testing to get as many solid results as possible before taking another step.

Though what everyone needs to realize...

AS LONG AS PROGRESS IS BEING MADE, WE WILL EVENTUALLY GET THERE.​

Simple as that.

You want to change something? Get support. Get data. Get Facts in a form we can all utilize on the lowest level. (ie get videos of something broken, something being exploited, etc etc.)

Keep building towards what you are trying to change, and approach it with patience.

Anything and everything should be tested.

Things need to be added to a queue of what should be tested. And results need to be recorded and archived for later use.


This project needs more of a scientist/lab approach to it, imo.

Data is an end all absolute for something like this. Needs moar research.


AND We need to list everything that is possible and isnt possible.

The reason why Google is successful as **** is because they take a "Data over preference" approach to things. If you suggest something in google, they want data to back it up, or they wont let it fly.

 

[~CPU~]

I think people just need to give the devolpers time. vbrawl didnt take 3 months to become what it is now.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Its a collaborative effort. If developers are going to spend more time on the game, players need to spend more time being considerate and understanding to it, and also providing logical and thoughtful feedback with results to back it up.

Things should be communicated with that co-operative mindset, not one that encourages undermining X persons knowledge on a subject or just showing off your own to demand changes.

 

[Yingyay]

Not enough testing happens imo.

That's the general jist of it. It doesnt matter how much bad advice you get, if its bad, tests and results WILL show.

We need to take our time with testing to get as many solid results as possible before taking another step.

Though what everyone needs to realize...

AS LONG AS PROGRESS IS BEING MADE, WE WILL EVENTUALLY GET THERE.​

Simple as that.

You want to change something? Get support. Get data. Get Facts in a form we can all utilize on the lowest level. (ie get videos of something broken, something being exploited, etc etc.)

Keep building towards what you are trying to change, and approach it with patience.

Anything and everything should be tested.

Things need to be added to a queue of what should be tested. And results need to be recorded and archived for later use.


This project needs more of a scientist/lab approach to it, imo.

Data is an end all absolute for something like this. Needs moar research.


AND We need to list everything that is possible and isnt possible.

The reason why Google is successful as **** is because they take a "Data over preference" approach to things. If you suggest something in google, they want data to back it up, or they wont let it fly.

This >= what i tried to say in my post lol

 

[Skip2MaLoo]

Let's take talk away from any links to the apartheid. By the way, you misquoted me at some point Skip. I never mentioned my opinions on any specific changes.

I'm sorry that you're enjoying the game less, but you have to appreciate the difficulties. Given a flood of opinions, you cannot tell which is more useful when they are all presented in the same form.

yeah you're right i feelz ya. but in the meantime i wont be going to any tournies for this. i understand its still in testing and all, but some test i like more than others. so ill just be playing melee in the meantime

 

[GHNeko]

I think people just need to give the devolpers time. vbrawl didnt take 3 months to become what it is now.

Pretty much. Changes need to be tested for a long time, and need to take place in real life scenarios IE tourneys and smashfests.

Touney results, in my opinion, provide the most solid data you can get. They should take priority over all else.

If you really want to back something up, get tourney results and tourney matches as solid proof.

Then changes should be made, and tests should held, and more results need to come in to see what the output is.

From there, you test more and continue looking at results until a reasonable point is found and decided upon as the standard, in which small tweaks are made til the move is generally as optimal as allowed.

 

[Turbo Ether]

Restart Brawl+.

1. Nerf and buff a little here and there.
2. Drop the idea of drastically altering fundamental game mechanics.
3. That's it.

Sirlin had the right idea when his team rebalanced Street Fighter. You guys, on the other hand, tried to make a totally new game. Just tweak what the original developers gave you, instead of throwing it out and creating a whole new set of balance issues.

 

[CountKaiser]

The Ivy up-B thing is nigh useless, as it stops all of Ivy's momentum, and the hop does almost nothing for Ivy.

Falco shine was brought in due to the falco community. Sonic usmash was taken out due to the Sonic community. If you want to take issue with the new shine, yell at the Falco mains who want it in.

As for Sonic mains saying such and such, I want them to play brawl+ for about a week or so spending time with their main only, then they can come to us and *****. I mention this because Hylian complained about G&W in brawl+ without actually knowing how to use the character now that brawl+ has changed some things around. The problem was that he was using G&W exactly like he did in brawl. You can't do that. I'm sure Sonic has some actual techchase options now that being forced to the ground puts the opponent in a bad situation.

As for testing, thats why we have these tournaments, so that we can test new things.

 

[Glitch-Mew2]

I havent tried the latest version so its obvious that I dont have much to say on the whole situation. However, i was personally happy with the 1st brawl+ i played (whatever version it was called). it was fun, it was a nice update that had its flaws and all but i was still enjoying it. Especially when it came to certain stages actually becoming playable. I havent been playing at all because I realized "why would I play a game thats going to keep getting updated over and over again and I'll have to relearn it again" its just a frustrating concept to me. For the mean time, I'll play if the game is available for me to try. I'll truly return when finally a version comes along that commits to the almighty goal of a fighting game that allows pros to be pros which initially hosts a fair and balanced world.

If the updaters listen to the community im sure we'll end up with that smash utopia we all want, or at least close to it. We just have to listen to each other and stop being babies

 

[Yingyay]

I think the version used in Silven's combo vid and the current version ( minus the lucario, Ivysaur, sadly Zelda-chan v_v recovery buffs. And Falco's shine buff. most thnk it should be used as a means to push the opponent away) should work fine.
-Link feels great this time around.
-Sheik cant wreck you in one tilt combo
-Fox feels great.
-Ness has a means to getting back on the stage better
-Captain Falcon can proudly say YES again.

I agree with Neko. More data from players would help better than requesting buffs and whatnot. One problem I think is that alot of players cant read frames that well. I would like to help more but im a Frame reading noob. v_v

 

[King Funk]

Shine pulling in as opposed to pushing away. Falco combos enough already, not to mention his zoning game (via lasers) is amazing. Giving him an even easier way to start combos is a little bit of an overbuff some people think. I'm naturally against making move property changes unless it's ABSOLUTELY necessary which in this case it's obviously is not...changing it because it's "better" is the lamest excuse ever. There was nothing wrong with the original, it worked like it should. Why would any shine pull you in..?

An ideal fighting game, since I think that is actually what the community is trying to create, should have characters use all of their moves. All of the moves in the game were created for a certain purpose: the developers don't create them for professional gamers, but for the average buyer (definition: someone who will innocently play the game the way it was supposed to be played, trusting every single move in the game). Here in smashboards, we make a dissection of the game. We study every case wisely, and take what's best in order to use it for competitive play.

It's obvious that some moves should be better than others, that some should be over-used and others situational, but there's a point where situational is ridiculously bad. By that I speak of Falco's shine. You can use it to reflect projectiles. Wow. That's it? It has so much lag, you aren't able to follow it with anything once you reflect a laser/arrow/etc.. Many people say Falco is too good to have a buff. That's complete bogus. How do we even know that he's "too good"? Do we have a big number of reliable tournament results to tell us so? No.

You said that "Falco combos enough". Sorry, but no too. Falco has a very shallow combo game which consists of abusing dair and utilt, and follow it with bair and nair. That's not a bad situation, I may agree. Most characters have gotten a lot better with the new physics, and most of the characters tweaks have been given to mid/low tier characters. But the fact that Falco was top tier in vBrawl doesn't mean he is still going to remain awesome in Brawl+, because what we have here seems like a whole new game. How many buffs has he received since vBrawl? Almost none except with u-tilt speed-up, and other changes. Oh and by the way, nerfing the lasers (3% -> 2%) compensates a LOT the shine change, you have no clue how often Falcos use it, and how much damage they deal with it.

Falco still has a huge weakness that balances everything out: recovery. One of the easiest characters to gimp if you can predict his side-b, and up-b trajectory, and most pros can.

Using Skip2MaLoo's concept, Falco is a dangerous bird of prey onstage, and a helpless lamb offstage.

 

[Team Giza]

Ice Climbers

-Blizzard pulling in. This was interesting...we all know this move is supposed to throw out neutral stun and works well as a keep away move but now it pulls you in for an almost guaranteed grab. It helps ice climbers get one grab = death stuff going. Not all chaingrabs will be taken out. Just don't let lain get his hands on this...he won't lose ever.... Please remove this.

I've mentioned it in the backroom before but it wasn't been changed. I was the one who put it in originally but it was clear to me shortly after it came out. However I do not think a complete removable of the change would be good. I would say the best change is making it so it has a trajectory of 290. So it doesn't pull you in but you can't DI up quite as much. We should probably remove it completely until we can work out all the infinites though.

Captain Falcon

-Not sure if this is a bug or whatever but he gets chaingrabbed by a lot of characters because of his physics.... That's just wrong and is the opposite to what Brawl+ is supposed to be going for.

Which throws do this? Just need some more information so we can do some tests on changing his physics so he won't get changed thrown as bad but also won't wouldn't change his playstyle too much.

Ivysaur

-Razor leaf...are you serious? Gurukid purposely camped Basic Sausage in the tourney set (on the livestream tv) to show how stupid it was. Yes he told me this himself (a PT main). It's easily an overbuff. Ivysaur was always an amazing character and the Brawl+ physics just made everyone realize his potential even more so why does he get a ridiculous razor leaf buff. The move combos into itself with a few characters if you get hit in the air..I don't know if you guys saw this but anyone who played either Cape or Guru's Ivy should know about this.

-Multiple up-b's. This is heavily debated so prepare for a long read, but a lot of people seem to think Ivy is already too good and doesn't need multiple up'b's for balance reasons. For example, Olimar = crazy ground game but what helps him not be too ******** is his mediocre recovery. It was similar for Ivysaur except now he has multiple upb's. Oh and did I mention the fact that it can be used to stall in the air along with dair? I guess the bad Ivy players didn't know that dair helps with recovery and stalls just enough to bait someone to roll onto the stage in attempts to gain invuln. frames against's Ivy's upb. This might be going over a lot of people's heads so let me flesh it out a little.

I think the razor leaf should be slowed down a little but not back to its original form. I've been playing a lot of Ivysaur lately and I do agree that the multiple up Bs is a bit much with all the other buffs. It is definitely not necessary. I am not against the razor leaf buff myself but after the recovery buff it makes Ivysaur a bit too godly.

Lucario

-Extreme speed or w.e...his recovery move. I didn't hear of any Lucario mains complaining about not being able to attack out of it. It's incredibly buggy and it's implemented in such a haphazard fashion that you might as well take it out for those reasons alone. Seriously though, whatever happened to extreme speeding to wallcling and recovering that way. There was nothing wrong with his upb. It's the way it is because Lucario is already beastly. You guys are trying too hard to make characters perfect...character recovery flaws should be left in just due to the fact that Lucario is already an amazing character. I mean did you not see Ninjalink 4 stock the cape? What else kind of proof do you need. Lucario is amazing, he certainly does not need an up-b buff. It was good to know that in vBrawl Lucario's major downfall was a somewhat lame recovery but now since he can attack out of it and for some reason he gets boosted 50% or more in height (this is what I mean by buggy when I mentioned it earlier) when he goes straight up that is no longer true. So now Lucario has...good ground game, amazing projectile and zoning, gets stronger as he takes damage, and an amazing recovery. How's that for character balance.

I think the balance issue here has nothing to do with being able to attack after his up+B. The balance issue seems to have a lot more to do with his lag being taken off the end of his recovery which makes him be able to recover way too far.


I have not heard anything about freezing Yoshi Story since Orca was trying to get it frozen awhile ago.

 

[Kain6th]

As mentioned before. This is a whole new game. There is no tier list.

Ok, but im talking about the existing tier list, just emulate it and buff and nerf where need apply.

 

[Revven]

Restart Brawl+.

1. Nerf and buff a little here and there.
2. Drop the idea of drastically altering fundamental game mechanics.
3. That's it.

Sirlin had the right idea when his team rebalanced Street Fighter. You guys, on the other hand, tried to make a totally new game. Just tweak what the original developers gave you, instead of throwing it out and creating a whole new set of balance issues.

lolno.

10chars

 

[ETWIST51294]

The only thing that is extremly broken to me in B+ is wolf's shine. The other stuff isn't as broken as that. I mean, it's a combo breaker and it starts combos.

 

[Turbo Ether]

lolno.

10chars

Yeah, those suggestions are incredibly unreasonable! Let's just make a totally new game for no reason! Let's take the most difficult, possible route for rebalancing a game and throw developer's completely out the window!

 

[~CPU~]

The only thing that is extremly broken to me in B+ is wolf's shine. The other stuff isn't as broken as that. I mean, it's a combo breaker and it starts combos.

not all the time...

 

[Kuga]

Of course Falco mains will disagree about Removing Falco Shine buff,they just say he need this and blé blé blé.
Falco is a great character? Yes
Let's make his Greater? Sure -.-'
If you want his Shine better,ok,just make it better for Reflecting projects,not for Combos.Like reducing the winddown,so this will be less punishable,but keep with eletric effect,and 0 Hitstun >_>

 

[Yingyay]

An ideal fighting game, since I think that is actually what the community is trying to create, should have characters use all of their moves. All of the moves in the game were created for a certain purpose: the developers don't create them for professional gamers, but for the average buyer (definition: someone who will innocently play the game the way it was supposed to be played, trusting every single move in the game). Here in smashboards, we make a dissection of the game. We study every case wisely, and take what's best in order to use it for competitive play.

It's obvious that some moves should be better than others, that some should be over-used and others situational, but there's a point where situational is ridiculously bad. By that I speak of Falco's shine. You can use it to reflect projectiles. Wow. That's it? It has so much lag, you aren't able to follow it with anything once you reflect a laser/arrow/etc.. Many people say Falco is too good to have a buff. That's complete bogus. How do we even know that he's "too good"? Do we have a big number of reliable tournament results to tell us so? No.

You said that "Falco combos enough". Sorry, but no too. Falco has a very shallow combo game which consists of abusing dair and utilt, and follow it with bair and nair. That's not a bad situation, I may agree. Most characters have gotten a lot better with the new physics, and most of the characters tweaks have been given to mid/low tier characters. But the fact that Falco was top tier in vBrawl doesn't mean he is still going to remain awesome in Brawl+, because what we have here seems like a whole new game. How many buffs has he received since vBrawl? Almost none except with u-tilt speed-up, and other changes. Oh and by the way, nerfing the lasers (3% -> 2%) compensates a LOT the shine change, you have no clue how often Falcos use it, and how much damage they deal with it.

Falco still has a huge weakness that balances everything out: recovery. One of the easiest characters to gimp if you can predict his side-b, and up-b trajectory, and most pros can.

Using Skip2MaLoo's concept, Falco is a dangerous bird of prey onstage, and a helpless lamb offstage.

Okay but by using the reflector arent you still going to be using the same aerials? If the reflector pops the opponent in the air, what else is going to cahnge that you'll be using dtilt, ftilt, or watever? you'll still use the same thing. And dont forget Falco's great range game.

 

[ShiftingShadows28]

I think we need a thread for ever individual aspect of the game instead of discussing it all in the brawlplussery etc. were it goes on for 400 pages and is completely un organised.

It would hlep with feedback

 

[ETWIST51294]

not all the time...

Most of the time.

 

[Rudra]

Everything.

This. Falco's shine was nothing more than a mediocre spacing tool in VBrawl, and it was incredibly punishable in contrast to the little reward upon actually landing it. Now with the increased speed of Brawl+ and character buffs going left and right, I cant understand why his shine buff is a bad thing. It only adds more variety to his already shallow combo game and finally makes his Shine more than just a poor spacing tool. Hell, its not even remotely OP or anything since the opponent can always DI enough to prevent themselves from falling prey to combos/kills, and this is the case (even moreso) should the shine be spaced poorly.

@ Yingyay: . While his aerials will still be used to start/maintain/end combos, Falco wont always have to rely on them to start them at least (Lasers>follow up aside). Dtilt (and Ftilt imo) are actually more useful than his old shine was.

 

[Kuga]

Its too much buff for a great character.

 

[King Funk]

Of course Falco mains will disagree about Removing Falco Shine buff,they just say he need this and blé blé blé.
Falco is a great character? Yes
Let's make his Greater? Sure -.-'
If you want his Shine better,ok,just make it better for Reflecting projects,not for Combos.Like reducing the winddown,so this will be less punishable,but keep with eletric effect,and 0 Hitstun >_>

You haven't read my post. How do you know Falco is a great character? Tournament results, please? And don't you think every move should be more useful in the game?

*learn2writen'spell - red = funny grammatical errors*

 

[~CPU~]

Of course Falco mains will disagree about Removing Falco Shine buff,they just say he need this and blé blé blé.
Falco is a great character? Yes
Let's make his Greater? Sure -.-'
If you want his Shine better,ok,just make it better for Reflecting projects,not for Combos.Like reducing the winddown,so this will be less punishable,but keep with eletric effect,and 0 Hitstun >_>

one thing that gets on my nerve is how long the reflect a projectile effect last they need to shorten that...

 

[Revven]

Yeah, those suggestions are incredibly unreasonable! Let's just make a totally new game for no reason! Let's take the most difficult, possible route for rebalancing a game and throw developer's completely out the window!

For one, the whole reason why this project as started was because of two things.

1) Brawl breaks the Smash formula
2) Brawl has too many problems to stand as its own competitive game. (Even though it IS standing, it doesn't mean it is good at what it does, does it?)

If we went back, after MONTHS of work, dropping hitstun, ALR, shieldstun, teching, gravity, and etc. and focused on characters instead the game would be less appealing. Regular Brawl players wouldn't care for it, regardless of if it is just rebalancing the game or not. Brawl+ does more then rebalance the game, it makes it new, fun and exciting. I don't think someone like NL is playing Brawl+ just for better characters, he's playing it because it is more fun than regular Brawl and less stupid in a lot of ways (but still kinda dumb in some other areas).

If you wanna rebalance Brawl the way it is, you can go and do that in a different project. This isn't what Brawl+ is all about. Yeah, it's to make Brawl a better game competitively, but what comes with that is the Smash formula, which includes hitstun, shieldstun, NASL and etc. Without any of that, there's no real depth at all.

 

[Yingyay]

one thing that gets on my nerve is how long the reflect a projectile effect last they need to shorten that...

This should be the only thing that gets changed. A shorter cool down time.

 

[ShiftingShadows28]

This should be the only thing that gets changed. A shorter cool down time.

I would 2nd that

 

[Kuga]

You haven't read my post. How do you know Falco is a great character? Tournament results, please? And don't you think every move should be more useful in the game?

*learn2writen'spell - red = funny grammatical errors*

My english is bad,and i forgot to edit my post to fix some words,and i think some moves need to be what they was supposed to be.If you want his Shine better,Fine,but dont make his Shine to be another thing,he's a great character,i know because i know err,and alot os people agreed with this.

And if you think the gramatical erros is funny,Good for you champz,ur teh best.

This should be the only thing that gets changed. A shorter cool down time.

Agreed. =P

 

[King Funk]

one thing that gets on my nerve is how long the reflect a projectile effect last they need to shorten that...

No... We already got a buff for combos, we don't want people to complain about it being too fast now. The shine is now a very good punishing tool, therefore it must be neither abusable nor unpredictable.

EDIT: you can DI out of it, it's not a lethal move!

 

[Roxas215]

I think the main problem brawl+ has had recently is that they are buffing already good chars. Some of the buff's i agree on. Like say link's and ness recovery. But lucario,ivy,sonic's buffs? There completely unneeded. Then u have what i think they called "trade off's" for example they nerfed zss over b but buffed fsmash? WTF? Any good zss player wont ever do dsmas to fsmash in brawl+ as you can do dsmash to dtilt then "insert combo here" Stupid ideas like this needs to go.

I dont want to see brawl+ start all over. Alot of good has come out of the past year on this project. But if the creators honestly think that they are nearing a final codeset with all the broken stuff in the game then someone else needs to take over.

 

[Yingyay]

I think the main problem brawl+ has had recently is that they are buffing good chars. Some of the buff's i agree on. Like say link's and ness recovery. But lucario,ivy,sonic's buffs? There completely unneeded.

I dont want to see brawl+ start all over. Alot of good has come out of the past year on this project. But if the creators honestly think that they are nearing a final codeset with all the broken stuff in the game then someone else needs to take over.

I think they meant that they're closer to releasing an offical beta version. Just a few things needed to be tweaked out and indeed its just a few

 

[King Funk]

Okay but by using the reflector arent you still going to be using the same aerials? If the reflector pops the opponent in the air, what else is going to cahnge that you'll be using dtilt, ftilt, or watever? you'll still use the same thing. And dont forget Falco's great range game.

It's much deeper than that. I can't really give you any examples right now because I'm only basing what I say on theory. We don't have the Falco shine buff for PAL yet. I'm sure Orca will come to explain to all of you the potential and usefulness of the new shine. I gotta go... Good night.

 

[Turbo Ether]

For one, the whole reason why this project as started was because of two things.

1) Brawl breaks the Smash formula
2) Brawl has too many problems to stand as its own competitive game. (Even though it IS standing, it doesn't mean it is good at what it does, does it?)

If we went back, after MONTHS of work, dropping hitstun, ALR, shieldstun, teching, gravity, and etc. and focused on characters instead the game would be less appealing. Regular Brawl players wouldn't care for it, regardless of if it is just rebalancing the game or not. Brawl+ does more then rebalance the game, it makes it new, fun and exciting. I don't think someone like NL is playing Brawl+ just for better characters, he's playing it because it is more fun than regular Brawl and less stupid in a lot of ways (but still kinda dumb in some other areas).

If you wanna rebalance Brawl the way it is, you can go and do that in a different project. This isn't what Brawl+ is all about. Yeah, it's to make Brawl a better game competitively, but what comes with that is the Smash formula, which includes hitstun, shieldstun, NASL and etc. Without any of that, there's no real depth at all.

I have a MUCH more conservative perspective. I'm the type of guy that would rather see a few reasonable changes here and there. Condense character disparity a bit. Nothing crazy. Which is why i'm not a fan of Brawl+, although, the concept is intriguing. Like I said, Sirlin and his team rebalanced Street Fighter with the right mindset, they didn't try to make a totally new game.

 

[Revven]

I'm apart of the WBR and I believe we are not done, but, I know some people in the WBR want to be done, which is why it may seem this is a bit rushed. But, fear not, I don't believe we will rush it, I'll make sure of that.

The issue is that, all the good players don't give feedback fast enough or fall on deaf ears due to other people excessively posting every day. It'd be nice if we got some of ya'll in the WBR but, we don't have that power as Almas said earlier on.

You just need to be patient, everyone right now I think is either tired from BtL yesterday or busy right now. It's not the end of the world, the issues and/or complaints will be taken care of some time.

 

[Yingyay]

This. Falco's shine was nothing more than a mediocre spacing tool in VBrawl, and it was incredibly punishable in contrast to the little reward upon actually landing it. Now with the increased speed of Brawl+ and character buffs going left and right, I cant understand why his shine buff is a bad thing. It only adds more variety to his already shallow combo game and finally makes his Shine more than just a poor spacing tool. Hell, its not even remotely OP or anything since the opponent can always DI enough to prevent themselves from falling prey to combos/kills, and this is the case (even moreso) should the shine be spaced poorly.

@ Yingyay: . While his aerials will still be used to start/maintain/end combos, Falco wont always have to rely on them to start them at least (Lasers>follow up aside). Dtilt (and Ftilt imo) are actually more useful than his old shine was.

You always got ur throws.
So basically the problem is that falco mains dont always wanna do one thing that leads to another? I dont mind that but like I said, Falco has lasers to bait them, throws work wonders as well. Also DACUS is great at lower percents.

 

[Kuga]

It's impossible to convince Falco Mains.

Well,about Ivy Razor Leaf: i thing this need to be a bit slower,its TOO spamable right now,and for Lucario New Up-B,hmm,he has teh autosweetspot xD

 

[Yingyay]

It's impossible to convince Falco Mains,

Well,about Ivy Razor Leaf: i thing this need to be a bit slower,its TOO spamable right now,and for Lucario New Up-B,hmm,he has teh autosweetspot xD

Nah, its just a mater of having people realize ALL their tools.
Im a Sheik main and i came to terms with that fact that her stilt got nerfed to heck AND her Fair doesnt kill like it used to. Maybe this will change maybe not, but if its for the sake of balance and wont make her a pain in da *** to use like it was in vBrawl then im for it.