Thanks! that cleared things up
-
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Brawl Information Compendium & Social
- Thread starter WindMajor
- Start date
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
I could have sworn that marths tipper dair couldnt be meteor canceled either...
I've meteor canceled it myself using ZSS Up-B and Snake's Cypher.
This ain't NTSC Melee.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
I switch between the 2 games a lot, so forgive my mixing of each's mechanics.
teluoborg
Smash Otter
Footstools don't put you in hitstun so it's an exception.
Footstools are just one of the many ******** mechanics of Brawl coughedgeslipcough.
Footstools are just one of the many ******** mechanics of Brawl coughedgeslipcough.
Ookami Hajime
Smash Ace
When you jump you go higher which takes you a little farther from side screen death zone and more towards the corner.
i dont see whats so confusing about it, double jumping moves you sideways
once you accept the physics behind double jumping being possible for someone without wings or a jetpack, it makes sense that it counters knockback and keeps you alive longer
once you accept the physics behind double jumping being possible for someone without wings or a jetpack, it makes sense that it counters knockback and keeps you alive longer
Heartstring
Smash Legend
Agreed, Plus it makes for the intriguing thought process of 'Am I going to survive without jumping? Can I afford to use my second jump now?'
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
http://smashboards.com/threads/braw...ead-not-sure-ask.266590/page-46#post-15647583
Since I already answered this on the last page.
Since I already answered this on the last page.
Bobwithlobsters
Smash Journeyman
Actually that doesn't explain it. This is similar to the sdi versus di topic. If it doesn't give momentum it would have to essentially change your angle that you got when you first received knockback as the distance from the side blast zone is completely independent from your vertical movement.this is a situation where you have to understand there are x-axis and y-axis forces and your angle of first knockback. Also I'm fairly certain jumping doesn't retroactively change your initial knockback angle.
Simply put jumping either changes your x-axis momentum or it retroactively changes your knockback angle for it to result in you living longer.
Heartstring
Smash Legend
well, TECHNICALLY what Ookami said could be correct, If i was to bother creating a picture of a triangle showing angles, hypotenuses and other crap like that, It would show his logic makes sense.
...it just happens that's its not how it actually works
...it just happens that's its not how it actually works
Regarding the Omnigay move performed in the doubles match-up. I'm a Metaknight who plays in the 4th controller slot, which means I have priority regarding FSA. Sometimes the omnigay kills me as well as my opponent. I thought the move should be guaranteed to kill my opponent (who has been upthrowed) and keep me alive, but that didn't happen apparently. Any idea on how to guarantee the opponent kill without SDing?
NickRiddle
#negativeNick
You cannot SDI, you die on the first frame after getting hit by the move.
It's 100% dependent on the frame you get hit in the magnifier... Good luck.
It's 100% dependent on the frame you get hit in the magnifier... Good luck.
So ideally it should be delayed as much as possible? Or is mainly luck dependent?
NickRiddle
#negativeNick
I do not know the specific frame data, as that isn't important to me.
It's probably luck dependent.
It's probably luck dependent.
BlueXenon
Smash Lord
How should you DI peach's fresh Fair?
I die to it at 100% too often.
I hate this move so much. I can predict it at least 80% of the time but I still get hit by it because I get shield poked
I die to it at 100% too often.
I hate this move so much. I can predict it at least 80% of the time but I still get hit by it because I get shield poked
BlueXenon
Smash Lord
Thankyou. Now I know what my mistake was. I was only holding up.
only holding up will keep you alive pretty long against most things, the vast majority of attacks just send you up and out while allowing for DI within a 90 degree cone
i dont see how peach could kill you at 100% without you holding down or momentum cancelling poorly.
i dont see how peach could kill you at 100% without you holding down or momentum cancelling poorly.
BlueXenon
Smash Lord
Is it possible I could be killing myself by jumping?
Pikabunz
Smash Hero
Yes, you can kill yourself by jumping. Some b moves can kill you too.
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
Here's a video demonstration to follow up on what Pikabunz just said
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njcYW0rFmUg
Also, something a lot of newer players tend to forget is that they're supposed to fastfall after throwing out the aerial to momentum cancel. Throwing out an aerial without fastfalling it is equivalent to not doing anything at all.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njcYW0rFmUg
Also, something a lot of newer players tend to forget is that they're supposed to fastfall after throwing out the aerial to momentum cancel. Throwing out an aerial without fastfalling it is equivalent to not doing anything at all.
Jamwa
Smash Champion
is fastfalling beneficial in all situations?
as in if you were being sent upwards and diagonally, wouldn't fastfalling decrease the amount of vertical distance to the blastzone?
teluoborg
Smash Otter
Not if you're sent horizontally and have a poor recovery obviously.
But the thing is ideally, you want to DI towards the upper corner of the blastzone, so to avoid dying vertically it is mandatory to fastfall.
Now what v115 said is not completely true, the main utility of doing an aerial is that you are able drift during it and to jump after it ends, which drastically reduces your horizontal momentum.
For the complete course about survival I invite you to read this
http://smashboards.com/threads/a-complete-guide-to-di-and-survival-updated-mar-6th-2009.221969/
It's from 2009 but it's still extremely relevant, though a bit outdated on some parts.
But the thing is ideally, you want to DI towards the upper corner of the blastzone, so to avoid dying vertically it is mandatory to fastfall.
Now what v115 said is not completely true, the main utility of doing an aerial is that you are able drift during it and to jump after it ends, which drastically reduces your horizontal momentum.
For the complete course about survival I invite you to read this
Aerials
When you are sent flying, in the first part of hitstun, you cannot do anything, and by now you should ALREADY have DI-ed since it is done on the last frame of hitlag. In the second part however(which has no visual difference with the first part), you can do any aerial or airdodge, but any momentum shift you input(i.e. pressing toward the stage) will not be registered. It is also impossible to jump, do any special attack, or footstool. You should do an aerial in the air as soon as possible when you are sent flying, for an aerial allows you to directly make a transition from the 2nd part of hitstun to the 3rd part, which is the one where you can make substantials savings on overall knockback. This is because the 3rd part of momentum basically allows you to do anything that you usually would. It is suggested to use the aerial that ends as soon as possible. It is also worth nothing that you can also throw a projectile that you had in hand to get out of the 2nd phase of hitstun, which comes out usually fairly fast and end instantly.
Momentum Shifting
First of all, one must notice that the whole momentum you gain can be separated into horizontal and vertical. Now we need to be able to reduce both of these, which implies fast falling and pressing towards the stage. Each character has 3 variables that will influence these 2 components. Weight of a character dampens(reduces) the initial vertical AND horizontal momentum but does not have any effect on the deceleration. Weight is however a very misleading term, and is now often referred to as launch resistance, because many people think that launch resistance only affects vertical knockback or is confused with falling speed. This is however the case for falling speed, which basically sets the deceleration speed of the vertical speed. If you can fastfall, then you automatically higher your falling speed which gets even higher gradually until it reaches a maximum, and this will therefore counteract the vertical momentum gave away by the move thus slowing you down and saving you. The second one is actually drift speed. Unlike for falling speed, everyone has the same basic resistance to horizontal knockback if you do not press toward any direction. However, everyone has a different drift speed. This can be easily seen when you compare Wario's aerial control with the one Ganondorf has. This drift speed cannot be used to reduce your horizontal momentum once you are in control of your character(which you are not until the 2nd part of hitstun). However, jumping seems to give you an horizontal boost if you press towards the stage, which in my opinion(this has yet to be proved) is because you can actually break this rule once you jumped, and counteract the effects of the knockback using your drift speed which is higher than the base horizontal resistance. The higher your drift speed, the faster you can counteract these effects.
Characters with disproportionate horizontal and vertical momentum canceling speeds have a slightly different DI system which should be used when they are sent flying in an unknown direction. This will later on be called best character DI value(BCDI) and is explained in the Various section . The first and foremost utility to doing an aerial is that it allows you to start fastfalling as soon as 1 frame after you pressed, which implies that by fastfalling you are reducing any vertical momentum left for after the aerial(which can often save you from imminent death). This is one of the two reasons why airdodge is not used anymore, for not only can you fastfall only after it, but it often lasts a lot longer than aerials by most characters. Directly after fast falling, you can jump and then start pressing towards the stage because you are in control and this allows you to counter the effects of horizontal momentum. If you do not jump, you may sometime look as if you would survive but then suddenly die because you had a little bit too much of horizontal momentum left. It is however important to notice that the jump will give you all your momentum that you canceled using fast fall back, and it will give you additional height because of the jump. However, the height gained from the jump CANNOT kill you, since you can never die of jumping too high. Therefore, only the momentum gained back from fastfall can, and it is often not big enough to kill you because you have waited after the aerial, which means you are already much lower thanks to the fastfall AND the basic falling speed, meaning you will probably not die because you will only gain back the fast fall momentum you had previously canceled.
Now, you know that you can use fast falling and jumping while pressing towards the stage to remove all sorts of momentum, but there are other ways to cancel momentum. First of all, it is important to notice that you can also use the throwing of an item to grant yourself the ability to go in the 3rd part of hitstun. This is faster than any aerial if you down throw because you get instant fast fall or almost, and also get the ability to jump directly out of this if required to save yourself from horizontal momentum because throws are faster than any aerial. This is why some characters like Diddy and Peach can momentum cancel very fast with their projectiles(Snake has a risk of killing himself with his grenades). There are also some special moves(as of now only 1 is known) that alter the speed at which you are going simply by setting new base momentum values and deceleration speeds. This is the case for Game and Watch bucket, which led to the popular practice known as bucket braking. This is simply done by using the bucket to set a new momentum whenever you have regained control of your character after you are sent flying. Many other moves used to be thought of being capable of momentum canceling, such as Fox's shine, Marth and Ike's counter moves, Peach's floating ability. However, these only act as normal B moves, giving you back the momentum you tried to canceled with fast falling, and do not stop any sort of horizontal movement. As of now, throwing a projectile is the best momentum canceling there is unless you play Game and Watch.
Note: You should not use any B move after reducing your momentum with fast falling because you will immediately gain it back, nor should you fast fall if you think you will need the height to recovery properly( IE snake must recover high sometimes versus metaknight).
A video guide of how to momentum cancel has been made by infzy! You can watch it here:
Momentum Canceling by infzy
Summary
After regaining control of your character, fastfall during the aerial. Then jump and press towards the stage. Some characters are however better off using momentum canceling move instead of jumping.
When you are sent flying, in the first part of hitstun, you cannot do anything, and by now you should ALREADY have DI-ed since it is done on the last frame of hitlag. In the second part however(which has no visual difference with the first part), you can do any aerial or airdodge, but any momentum shift you input(i.e. pressing toward the stage) will not be registered. It is also impossible to jump, do any special attack, or footstool. You should do an aerial in the air as soon as possible when you are sent flying, for an aerial allows you to directly make a transition from the 2nd part of hitstun to the 3rd part, which is the one where you can make substantials savings on overall knockback. This is because the 3rd part of momentum basically allows you to do anything that you usually would. It is suggested to use the aerial that ends as soon as possible. It is also worth nothing that you can also throw a projectile that you had in hand to get out of the 2nd phase of hitstun, which comes out usually fairly fast and end instantly.
Momentum Shifting
First of all, one must notice that the whole momentum you gain can be separated into horizontal and vertical. Now we need to be able to reduce both of these, which implies fast falling and pressing towards the stage. Each character has 3 variables that will influence these 2 components. Weight of a character dampens(reduces) the initial vertical AND horizontal momentum but does not have any effect on the deceleration. Weight is however a very misleading term, and is now often referred to as launch resistance, because many people think that launch resistance only affects vertical knockback or is confused with falling speed. This is however the case for falling speed, which basically sets the deceleration speed of the vertical speed. If you can fastfall, then you automatically higher your falling speed which gets even higher gradually until it reaches a maximum, and this will therefore counteract the vertical momentum gave away by the move thus slowing you down and saving you. The second one is actually drift speed. Unlike for falling speed, everyone has the same basic resistance to horizontal knockback if you do not press toward any direction. However, everyone has a different drift speed. This can be easily seen when you compare Wario's aerial control with the one Ganondorf has. This drift speed cannot be used to reduce your horizontal momentum once you are in control of your character(which you are not until the 2nd part of hitstun). However, jumping seems to give you an horizontal boost if you press towards the stage, which in my opinion(this has yet to be proved) is because you can actually break this rule once you jumped, and counteract the effects of the knockback using your drift speed which is higher than the base horizontal resistance. The higher your drift speed, the faster you can counteract these effects.
Characters with disproportionate horizontal and vertical momentum canceling speeds have a slightly different DI system which should be used when they are sent flying in an unknown direction. This will later on be called best character DI value(BCDI) and is explained in the Various section . The first and foremost utility to doing an aerial is that it allows you to start fastfalling as soon as 1 frame after you pressed, which implies that by fastfalling you are reducing any vertical momentum left for after the aerial(which can often save you from imminent death). This is one of the two reasons why airdodge is not used anymore, for not only can you fastfall only after it, but it often lasts a lot longer than aerials by most characters. Directly after fast falling, you can jump and then start pressing towards the stage because you are in control and this allows you to counter the effects of horizontal momentum. If you do not jump, you may sometime look as if you would survive but then suddenly die because you had a little bit too much of horizontal momentum left. It is however important to notice that the jump will give you all your momentum that you canceled using fast fall back, and it will give you additional height because of the jump. However, the height gained from the jump CANNOT kill you, since you can never die of jumping too high. Therefore, only the momentum gained back from fastfall can, and it is often not big enough to kill you because you have waited after the aerial, which means you are already much lower thanks to the fastfall AND the basic falling speed, meaning you will probably not die because you will only gain back the fast fall momentum you had previously canceled.
Now, you know that you can use fast falling and jumping while pressing towards the stage to remove all sorts of momentum, but there are other ways to cancel momentum. First of all, it is important to notice that you can also use the throwing of an item to grant yourself the ability to go in the 3rd part of hitstun. This is faster than any aerial if you down throw because you get instant fast fall or almost, and also get the ability to jump directly out of this if required to save yourself from horizontal momentum because throws are faster than any aerial. This is why some characters like Diddy and Peach can momentum cancel very fast with their projectiles(Snake has a risk of killing himself with his grenades). There are also some special moves(as of now only 1 is known) that alter the speed at which you are going simply by setting new base momentum values and deceleration speeds. This is the case for Game and Watch bucket, which led to the popular practice known as bucket braking. This is simply done by using the bucket to set a new momentum whenever you have regained control of your character after you are sent flying. Many other moves used to be thought of being capable of momentum canceling, such as Fox's shine, Marth and Ike's counter moves, Peach's floating ability. However, these only act as normal B moves, giving you back the momentum you tried to canceled with fast falling, and do not stop any sort of horizontal movement. As of now, throwing a projectile is the best momentum canceling there is unless you play Game and Watch.
Note: You should not use any B move after reducing your momentum with fast falling because you will immediately gain it back, nor should you fast fall if you think you will need the height to recovery properly( IE snake must recover high sometimes versus metaknight).
A video guide of how to momentum cancel has been made by infzy! You can watch it here:
Momentum Canceling by infzy
Summary
After regaining control of your character, fastfall during the aerial. Then jump and press towards the stage. Some characters are however better off using momentum canceling move instead of jumping.
http://smashboards.com/threads/a-complete-guide-to-di-and-survival-updated-mar-6th-2009.221969/
It's from 2009 but it's still extremely relevant, though a bit outdated on some parts.
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
Well what I meant was that the reason you momentum cancel with an aerial rather than an airdodge is because you can initiate a fastfall during an aerial (which you can't do during an airdodge), and that outside of that there isn't really a difference because you can also drift during airdodges, and (because of the 12-frame headstart) you can jump earlier with an airdodge (in most cases) than with an aerial.
But yeah I suppose what I said about not using an aerial = doing nothing at all, isn't entirely true.
teluoborg
Smash Otter
Nah, ends earlier than aerials for only 4-5 characters at max.
See one of my posts 1 or 2 pages before.
See one of my posts 1 or 2 pages before.
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
I assume you're talking about this?
It's actually 17 chars, but still a lot less than I thought lol
yoshi8984
Smash Lord
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How do you maintain a lead in general? It's one thing I always have trouble with.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
dont do really punishable things.
play more conservatively. focus more on punishing mistakes than creating opening.
focus more on not getting hit and less on hitting.
play more conservatively. focus more on punishing mistakes than creating opening.
focus more on not getting hit and less on hitting.
Drifting isn't actually a thing that helps, it doesn't exist.
You can't affect your horizontal momentum just by holding left/right until knockback ends.
You use an aerial because, it allows you to fast fall which makes you live longer vertically (and so you can DI further up, living longer horizontally too), and for almost every character (not Ike/Snake), you can jump the soonest out of hitstun (while you can air-dodge sooner than aerial, most character's fastest aerials still end sooner than an airdodge would).
You maintain a lead by doing the stuff that got you a lead
Though generally forcing your opponent to approach you and taking advantage of how that limits their options is good.
BlueXenon
Smash Lord
I think to maintain a lead you should focus less on reading your opponent and more on limiting their options and punishing. When you read your opponent, you are basically guessing what they will do next or the option that they will pick. If you guess wrong (you will never guess 100% right), you can get punished and lose your lead. If you only attempt to make small reads that aren't too risky, you will most likely take less damage.
Imagine if your opponent tries to approach with an fair on your shield and you shield grab him for it and you're using metaknight. Once you grab him you use dthrow. When you throw your opponent, you can read what they will do for another hit. A risky thing to do would be to dash grab at them for an air dodge read because any a move can hit you. A safe thing to do would be short hop fair or tornado, because if you miss you're unlikely to be punished and you would still have stage control.
There are many ways to limit your opponents options. If you send your opponent offstage, don't let them take a shortcut and just jump back on stage. Try to make them go to the ledge. You can use (and space) a move/s that will beat whatever landing option they have to force them to go to the ledge. Metaknight can use a tornado near the ledge so if his opponent tries to land on stage, it would hit him. If your opponent is on a platform above you and failed to tech, tornado would be a good thing to do because I think it would beat rolling left and right, standing up, but would only lose to get up attack. If you know your opponent will use get up attack, then you can wait for it before going in with tornado.
I know that you main Ness from playing you on wifi, but most of my experience is from metaknight experience so I can't help with Ness or other characters.
Frame traps are also very good if you can execute them perfectly.
Thankyou. You were right, I was forgetting to fast fall. I played a Marth yesterday on wifi and I di'd a lot of his moves that would usually kill me.
Ookami Hajime
Smash Ace
I try to force my opponent into a predicament where they are rushing to wrap up my stock (thunder jolt camping, hit-and-run tactics, etc.) They're more predictable that way. Camp; you don't really need to approach if you have the lead. Everybody plays a different way.
Is it commonly known that you can fake drop-through, on moving platforms (AKA, those than can be platform cancelled on) by tapping down and then C-sticking down? I was playing around with platform cancelling and related things, and I noticed this - I couldn't find it in the AT thread, so I figured I'd inquire here. It seems to be lag-free as well.
And, after some further testing (I initially was just using Marth to mess around with this), it seems like not all characters function the same way. I only tested the top row of characters, but of them all but G&W and Pika worked the same as Marth. G&W and Pika both executed an instantaneous Dair on top of the platform, dealing damage and etc. as usual. The timing on G&W was about the same as the other characters, but the height that his Dair started at varied a little with the distance between the input of down and C-Down. If I got it just right, it seemed to cancel altogether, but the timing was quite a bit trickier than the others. Pika, on the other hand, required tricky timing just to do the Dair, and had no variety in the height of it. It seems like maybe characters with Dairs that add downward momentum act differently...and perhaps the fall-then-stall mechanism accounts for the change in G&Ws height.
Edit: Stall-then-fall does seem to be the factor that messes with this. Also, you can perform this by holding down and pressing A - by doing this, you can also have a little more control over how much of the drop-through animation occurs before cancelled, and you can also continue to hold down after the cancel to crouch/perform Dtilts. It's a little trickier, though, than C-Sticking it. The timing is just slightly slower than a Dsmash, and down should be held for just a tiny bit longer than if you just flicked it down.
And, after some further testing (I initially was just using Marth to mess around with this), it seems like not all characters function the same way. I only tested the top row of characters, but of them all but G&W and Pika worked the same as Marth. G&W and Pika both executed an instantaneous Dair on top of the platform, dealing damage and etc. as usual. The timing on G&W was about the same as the other characters, but the height that his Dair started at varied a little with the distance between the input of down and C-Down. If I got it just right, it seemed to cancel altogether, but the timing was quite a bit trickier than the others. Pika, on the other hand, required tricky timing just to do the Dair, and had no variety in the height of it. It seems like maybe characters with Dairs that add downward momentum act differently...and perhaps the fall-then-stall mechanism accounts for the change in G&Ws height.
Edit: Stall-then-fall does seem to be the factor that messes with this. Also, you can perform this by holding down and pressing A - by doing this, you can also have a little more control over how much of the drop-through animation occurs before cancelled, and you can also continue to hold down after the cancel to crouch/perform Dtilts. It's a little trickier, though, than C-Sticking it. The timing is just slightly slower than a Dsmash, and down should be held for just a tiny bit longer than if you just flicked it down.
Jamwa
Smash Champion
Yeah Pika's dair works like that because it has a landing hitbox (not sure if any other dairs have this, hence why it acts like that)
I think you can platform cancel normally though with him using another input like just down on the analog stick or down grab or something...
I know I've read about this somewhere
I think you can platform cancel normally though with him using another input like just down on the analog stick or down grab or something...
I know I've read about this somewhere
infiniteV115
Smash Hero
Not all chars whose dairs have a landing hitbox will produce it when platform cancelling with C-stick down (eg ZSS doesn't) so maybe there's more to it.
Also it's 2013, you shouldn't be platform cancelling with C-stick down anyway.
http://www.smashboards.com/threads/platform-cancel-stuff.323822/
Also it's 2013, you shouldn't be platform cancelling with C-stick down anyway.
http://www.smashboards.com/threads/platform-cancel-stuff.323822/