Brawl Information Compendium & Social

[infiniteV115]

He said fsmash

Most characters seem to have very slow fsmashes (at least compared to their other smashes). The fastest ones seem to be Wario's, Marth's, Sheik's, Pit's (Pit probably the fastest actually)....lemme check the ones that seem fast based off of memory

Diddy - Frame 12
Fox - Frame 13
ICs - 12
Kirby - 12
Luigi - 12
Marth - 12
Oli - 11
Pit - 6 (damn)
ROB - 13
Sheik - 5 (damn)
Wario - 9
Wolf - 10

Well there you have it. Assuming that the info on smashboards is correct, Sheik has the fastest fsmash (ie one with the least startup)

If you want info like this, go to the top right of the screen (scroll to the top) and click the INFO button with the Bowser icon, then click Complete Frame Data directory.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

The information I have says that Sheik's starts on Frame 9.

 

[Luckay4Lyphe]

Wow I knew Pit's was super fast, but not that much faster than everyone else lol. thx

 

[MEOW1337KITTEH]

How does hitstun work? I am looking for very heavy information (or a method to find out information if it hasn't been researched)

 

[da K.I.D.]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njcYW0rFmUg

dont knoe if thats everything you want but I figure its a good place to start.

 

[teluoborg]

Source : http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=221969

 

[MEOW1337KITTEH]

How long does hitstun last? Does it change from move to move? Does it vary from character to character? Does it change as percent increases?

Or is it always the same amount of time?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Changes as percents increase, and I think that is affected by weight, too. If I'm not mistaken, the more knockback you receive, the longer hitstun lasts.

You can airdodge or use an aerial to cancel hitstun (airdodge is at 14 frames, I forget; aerial is 26 frames). You'll still have to deal with the knockback, though.

 

[infiniteV115]

Airdodge is 14 according to the Smash Lab's video on DI (1st one in the series)

 

[Luckay4Lyphe]

what does iasa mean and what exactly do iasa frames do? can you buffer moves earlier or something?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

"Interruptable As Soon As" is what it means.

If a move's animation lasts 50 frames, but the IASA frame is 45, it means you can jump, walk, attack, or whatever at that time to cancel the rest of the animation. For all intents and purposes, you go to neutral position at frame 45, but if you don't go into another move/animation, the previous animation ends on frame 50 (purely visual effect).

In this example, you can cancel it on any frame at/past frame 45. That makes frame 45 the "real" move end, but the animation keeps going for a bit longer if you don't try to do something else. Yes, moves can be buffered out of IASA frames in the same way that a regular move end would.

 

[infiniteV115]

Not sure if you can buffer IASA frames, but basically (this is gonna sound stupid) IASA frames allow you to cut your move short, or end before they 'should'. IASA stands for 'interruptible as soon as'

eg Marth's dtilt lasts for 47 frames (with the hitbox on frames 7-13) but IASA frames start at frame 21, meaning if he inputs something (eg another dtilt) on frame 21, the dtilt will cancel (or be 'interrupted') and on frame 22 he will begin his 2nd dtilt.

Now you might be thinking "How can you say the move ends on frame 47 but you can end it on frame 21? That doesn't make any sense!"

I'm fairly certain what this means is that Marth's dtilt has a 47 frame ANIMATION (I guess he has to stand back up and ****) but you can cancel the animation, and AFAIK no move has IASA frames while a hitbox is out.

In other words, 47 frames long in terms of appearance, 20 frames in practical terms.

Edit: Ninja'd by Reflex. You can buffer IASA frames? Cool.
I assumed so cause I can buffer uairs with ZSS and her uair has IASA frames.

 

[Squeaker101]

I was wondering on what the fundamentals in this game were? I've never played this game competitively, and wanna get somewhat good at it. I've only really side-stepped/dodged for fundamentals.

 

[infiniteV115]

Spacing, zoning, cross-ups, juggling, anti-airing, baiting, edgeguarding, edgehogging, recovering, teching, camping, planking, shield pressure

That's all I can think of.

Edit: Scrooging, sharking

 

[BSP]

You forgot "pick a good character"

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Isn't that implied from sharking and scrooging?

 

[infiniteV115]

k nobody is answering my question on what ZSS' ftilt is like on shield so can someone tell me how to calculate it?
Do moves on block provide the same amount of hitlag for the user and the target? (Assuming no powershield)
If so, then it would simply be a matter of how many frames exist for the move after the hitbox disappears right?

Cause I have access to ZSS frame data, it says her ftilt hits on frames 6-8, the move lasts for 40 frames but has IASA frames on frame 29 and onward, so... 29-6 = -23 on block? Is that how it works?

Or does the target suffer from shieldstun that eats into this 23 frame window and makes it smaller? Cause -23 on block sounds pretty bad lol

 

[C.J.]

k nobody is answering my question on what ZSS' ftilt is like on shield so can someone tell me how to calculate it?
Do moves on block provide the same amount of hitlag for the user and the target? (Assuming no powershield)
If so, then it would simply be a matter of how many frames exist for the move after the hitbox disappears right?

Cause I have access to ZSS frame data, it says her ftilt hits on frames 6-8, the move lasts for 40 frames but has IASA frames on frame 29 and onward, so... 29-6 = -23 on block? Is that how it works?

Or does the target suffer from shieldstun that eats into this 23 frame window and makes it smaller? Cause -23 on block sounds pretty bad lol

Frame (dis)advantage = Move's duration - frame the hitbox comes out on - shield stun (- optional shield drop frames)

For landing aerials:
Frame (dis)advantage = Move's AC window - frame the hitbox comes out on - shield stun (- optional shield drop frames)

 

[da K.I.D.]

Or does the target suffer from shieldstun that eats into this 23 frame window and makes it smaller? Cause -23 on block sounds pretty bad lol

yes this.

i dont know how much shield stun zss's forward tilt does though, but since its not a very strong move, im assuming not much. so probably around -15 on block or something like that.

 

[BSP]

Isn't that implied from sharking and scrooging?

Nope

 

[Ayce God]

who are the top five characters with the best spot dodge, froll and air dodge. ?

also can someone link me to a thread that explains the mechanics of sdi.? I tried searching but couldn't find anything.

sorry for all the questions and thank u

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I assume the "top" part in the first question is redundant, and you mean, "What characters have the best spotdodge, etc." This thread doesn't tell you the distance, but you can load up Brawl and mess with it to see. Few characters get a really long distance on their rolls.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=225510

Here's some info on SDI--
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=221969

As an aside, both of these threads were available on the OP of this thread.

 

[infiniteV115]

Low angled ftilt actually does 9% (whereas regular and high-angled do 6%) so I assume this means low-angled is safer (or less unsafe) on block?

 

[Luckay4Lyphe]

-23 on block means what exactly

 

[infiniteV115]

It means if you hit your opponent's shield, basically you suffer from 23 more frames of lag than they do.

So your opponent has 23 frames to do whatever they wish. The 24th frame would be the attacker's first available frame (and since shields come out on frame 1 they would be able to shield on this frame)

So let's say you hit Snake's shield with a move that's -23 on block. He has 23 frames with which to punish. He can choose one of the following options.
-He drops his shield, shield drop takes 7 frames (assuming he didn't powershield the attack) so now he has 23-7= 16 frames. Now if he uses any attack ASAP and it comes out in 16 frames or less, you are guaranteed to get hit.
-He shieldgrabs. Snake's grab comes out on frame 8, so you're definitely gonna get grabbed unless you've spaced well or he is slower than a mother****er.
-He jumps OoS. Snake's jumpsquat is 10 frames, so now he has 23-10 = 13 frames to hit you. All of his aerials can hit you except for fair, which takes 23 frames (remember, he only has 13 free frames after jumping OoS)

 

[teluoborg]

Frame advantage on block says, after hitting your opponent's shield with a particular move, how many frames you have before the shieldstun ends and he can move again.

-23 on block means that you have a -23 frames advantage, which means that your opponent has 23 frames to punish your move if he shields it.

Only a handful of moves have a good (>-7) frame advantage on block.

Edit : ninja'd

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Low angled ftilt actually does 9% (whereas regular and high-angled do 6%) so I assume this means low-angled is safer (or less unsafe) on block?

If I'm not mistaken, shieldlag and hitlag are the same (in that both the attacker and the defender experience the same amount of "freeze"), so as far as the next actions are concerned, it's just as unsafe either way.

There MIGHT be slightly more shieldlag on the 9% hit, but, that just means that the opponent has ~1 frame longer to react to it, since you're both frozen in place from the hit slightly longer. It's pretty much negligible unless it's a huge difference in damage or the shieldlag is very large (pretty much only a thing with some Smashes, between uncharged and charged).

 

[C.J.]

Shieldlag and hitlag are the same (basically), but there's also shieldstun which is, AFAIK, affected by damage of the move.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

For the purpose of your asking, though, all angles of ZSS's F-Tilt are pretty much as unsafe as each other.

 

[infiniteV115]

Can I get an exact number? >.<

 

[C.J.]

Don't have a wii to test and I don't know the formula for figuring out stun based on damage/kb.

If you have a wii, the easiest thing to do is go to the mods subforum, find the frame-by-frame code, and hit a shield w/ ftilt, immediately unshield on the other controller. Count the number of frames that go by, subtract 7 and you'll get your answer.

Make sure you take shield hitlag into consideration (you'll know when you're in shiled hitlag as that'll be the time period that you can ISSDI

 

[teluoborg]

You should've asked your boards first dude.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=305271
-21 for normal and upwards, -18 for downwards
Too much to think about pressuring with it, but I think you already knew that.

 

[infiniteV115]

Huh...completely forgot about that thread. Thanks.
I was/I] actually thinking of using it for pressure, but now I can see it won't work...unless my opponent is scared.

Or maybe if it's like the back of Olimar's shield or something.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I don't understand how there's a difference in (dis)advantage if the IASA is the same, too.

 

[C.J.]

Because shield stun varies based on % and knockback of the move. As the different angle deal different %, then the shield stun varies which creates different (dis)advantage.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Three frames' worth of difference over 3% damage, though? It just seems extreme to me.

Also, why does downward have better frame advantage when upward F-Tilt deals more damage? I thought it worked the opposite way.

 

[teluoborg]

Well yeah, anyway you better use Dsmash, -4 on shield is awesome.

Also just saw this :

I was wondering on what the fundamentals in this game were? I've never played this game competitively, and wanna get somewhat good at it. I've only really side-stepped/dodged for fundamentals.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=188459
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=226635
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=221969
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=209309

To sum it up :
-Learn to zone so that you can hit/kill without getting hit yourself
-Learn to space your moves to be effective at what you do
-Learn to SDI, DI and Momentum Cancel to avoid dying

 

[infiniteV115]

Also, why does downward have better frame advantage when upward F-Tilt deals more damage? I thought it worked the opposite way.

It doesn't. Upward and regular deal 6%, downward deals 9%.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

That makes a lot more sense. I was so confused; it called into question a lot of the things I knew, hah.

Well, I can't imagine it's "1% extra = 1 extra frame," either...Any ideas? Does someone have the formula?

 

[sGale]

Are there any moves that can't be B-reversed?