Brawl Information Compendium & Social

[infiniteV115]

Can somebody tell me which of these hitboxes is the sweetspot? (It has 35 BKB and 100 KBG, according to this thread)

Edit: If the sweetspot is not in this video for some reason, could you get me a diagram?

 

[Paroxium]

So I've noticed that that you can bdacus with Falco out of grab release, if you react fast enough. Also, When you don't use the C-stick method of doing a dacus (Basically using method to correctly dacus with sheik) you travel a similar length to a Bdacus (A bit shorter, not much). I was wondering whether this could be used on characters such as Metaknight, Fox, Falco, and other characters with air releases with that weird trajectory.

I've did a little playing around with metaknight in training mode and vs. a comp, and it took me no more than 15 minutes to get the hang of both Dacus-ing and BDacus-ing out of grab release, which leads me to ask two questions.

1. Is Grab release > BDacus a viable kill option on MK, since it always hits unless you mess up or there's an obstacle (Frame data would be fantastic, but opinions help too.)

2. Grab release > Dacus can hit metaknight, but can he escape if you preform it, say, 3-6 frames after ASAP?

These 2 questions can possibly change the MU against MK to 45:55 or possibly even! With damage racking lasers and the ability to kill at ~120-130%, all falco needs to worry about is spacing and recovering (hence, 45:55, but lets be hopeful )

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Grab-release would have to be an air-release, which would require the Meta Knight to press a Jump command at a certain point during the grab. As a result, it usually won't happen if the Meta Knight is informed.

 

[infiniteV115]

And the Falco MU with MK is already arguably 45:55 or even...lol.

Falco probably does better against MK than any other character (excluding the ditto of course)

 

[Ayce God]

^^ marth

 

[infiniteV115]

I was told recently that the length of a BDACUS will vary depending on where in the buffer window the inputs are registered. Is this true?

I was aware that DACUS lengths vary with timing, but I did not think this was the case with BDACUSs....and every time I BDACUS with Falco, it is (or, it appears to be) of consistent length.

 

[Luigi player]

With bdacus you only buffer the dash attack which will always be the same. When the buffer ends and the dash attack comes out you input the usmash. Depending on the frame you do it it can vary in leangth.

 

[teluoborg]

You can actually buffer the whole Bdacus (the dash attack and the Usmash). Being late with the second Cstick input will cause you to not buffer the Usmash and risk to reduce the lenght of the bdacus (or not bdacus at all).

 

[Ayce God]

how is it that peach is able to interrupt Marths dancing blade with her nair, if theres no invincibility frames on start up for that move?

 

[Luigi player]

You can actually buffer the whole Bdacus (the dash attack and the Usmash). Being late with the second Cstick input will cause you to not buffer the Usmash and risk to reduce the lenght of the bdacus (or not bdacus at all).

you cant buffer 2 moves lol

 

[-LzR-]

how is it that peach is able to interrupt Marths dancing blade with her nair, if theres no invincibility frames on start up for that move?

Because it comes out on frame 3. And are you sure she can do that as I'm pretty sure that's not possible.

 

[Ayce God]

yes, when I'm using dancing blade she punishes it with nair oos. perhaps I'm not doing it fast enough.

 

[sGale]

Does a move stale if it hits a counter?

 

[teluoborg]

@GlacierRyu : no, since counter isn't a hurtbox

@nova_9 : anyone can punish DB from their shield, especially the last 2 hits. I heard Ike could even shield drop jab between the 3rd and 4th hit, but I haven't checked.
So the practical answer is stop DBing shields.

@LP : yes you can buffer 2 moves lol, as long as the first move is shorter than 10 frames. You can buffer SH aerials so why wouldn't dacus work ?

 

[Tesh]

There is like a 12+ frame window between the 3rd and 4th hit. So if you are shielding it, you can shield drop jab him with most characters (if you are close enough) and quick aerials oos will work too.

 

[Luigi player]

@GlacierRyu : no, since counter isn't a hurtbox

@nova_9 : anyone can punish DB from their shield, especially the last 2 hits. I heard Ike could even shield drop jab between the 3rd and
4th hit, but I haven't checked.
So the practical answer is stop DBing shields.

@LP : yes you can buffer 2 moves lol, as long as the first move is shorter than 10 frames. You can buffer SH aerials so why wouldn't dacus work ?

well but dash+attack is already 2 "moves" then.

 

[teluoborg]

Well you can buffer a dash SH aerial if the number of moves is all you care about. heck you can even buffer a standing pivot grab, which is 5 inputs.
Pro tip : the number of inputs is not what's important when you think about buffering.

 

[infiniteV115]

I think he meant two attacks

 

[-LzR-]

No I was confused because I though he mean't Peach can interrupt sideB on HIT. It's not really called interrupting if you do it OoS. It's just punishing a crappy thing to do in that situation.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Well I guess the Peach could also have good SDI and nair him out of the multihit move. :U
But pretty much what LzR said.

 

[Pikabunz]

You can't even sdi dancing blade.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

What, why? Is the SDI multiplier turned off for the move? o_O

 

[infiniteV115]

Fairly certain you can...I SDI out of it all the time so that the 4th hit whiffs and then I punish with a ZSS dsmash

Either that or I'm not SDIing at all and DB is just a bad move that pushes you away on its own at any given percent.

Also, what is ZSS' ftilt like on shield?

Also do buffer windows exist for IASA frames? eg if a move is normally 30 frames long but has IASA frames starting on frame 20, does that mean I can input something on frame 11 and it will come out on the first available IASA frame? (Frame 20)
If so, please factor in any existing IASA frames into ZSS' ftilt's frame disadvantage on shield...if you weren't planning to already.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Thank goodness. I thought I was going insane being able to punish it and what not.

 

[Pikabunz]

You can sdi the last hit of db but not the first 3 hits. The first 3 hits of db have no hitlag and you can only sdi in hitlag. You could however normal di out of it similar to how you can just hold up to escape Pikachu's dsmash. Maybe that's what you're doing.

 

[-LzR-]

Oh then that explains why it's so hard to SDI out of.

 

[infiniteV115]

Oh normal DI, gotcha.

...But I'm fairly certain there's a bunch of hitlag on Pikachu's dsmash and it's sdiable...don't all electric moves have extended hitlag?

And it seemed like different inputs (ie different ways to SDI out of Pika's dsmash) had different results.

 

[Tesh]

Nah, you can definitely SDI pika's downsmash, he was just saying that you can hold up to get out quite easily without SDI.

 

[Ayce God]

I meant oos too. just tried it. if u catch peach in db on the third hit peach can nair out of it. sup wit that

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Dancing Blade is bad on shield.

 

[Ayce God]

lol I meant even when peach is not shielding if you db her on third hit she can magically nair. eh. I just thought it was weird.

 

[-LzR-]

You mean the crappy green version?

 

[Ayce God]

nope, the hit right before u choose the last hit. which knocks em either back, up or does the crap green multi hit

 

[Luigisama]

does every character have the same frame count or speed for going through a platform?

ANSWER MY QUESTION.

 

[da K.I.D.]

no. some characters vertical rising speeds are different, fox and falco compared to samus for example.

some character are also far larger than others, affecting the time it takes them to pass through a platform, kirby and DDD for example.

 

[C.J.]

^^ marth

Not. At. All. IC probably has the best MK MU, assuming somewhat conservative stage list. Falco is likely top 3. Marth is behind IC, Falco, Olimar/Diddy/Snake

I was told recently that the length of a BDACUS will vary depending on where in the buffer window the inputs are registered. Is this true?

I was aware that DACUS lengths vary with timing, but I did not think this was the case with BDACUSs....and every time I BDACUS with Falco, it is (or, it appears to be) of consistent length.

BDACUS says all inputs are in before the buffer window is over so it'll be the same length every time.

You can actually buffer the whole Bdacus (the dash attack and the Usmash). Being late with the second Cstick input will cause you to not buffer the Usmash and risk to reduce the lenght of the bdacus (or not bdacus at all).

This

how is it that peach is able to interrupt Marths dancing blade with her nair, if theres no invincibility frames on start up for that move?
DB is AWFUL on shield. HORRENDOUS on shield. Also, DB does have a few frames, on hit, where it's possible to punish. I've been hit out of DB (the first 3 hits when poorly spaced) by, MK's Nair, uair, Peach nair, Diddy uair.

you cant buffer 2 moves lol

You can if one cancels the other AFAIK.

Because it comes out on frame 3. And are you sure she can do that as I'm pretty sure that's not possible.

It's very possible =(

yes, when I'm using dancing blade she punishes it with nair oos. perhaps I'm not doing it fast enough.

Shield makes DB bad.

There is like a 12+ frame window between the 3rd and 4th hit. So if you are shielding it, you can shield drop jab him with most characters (if you are close enough) and quick aerials oos will work too.

Yeah, pretty much. That's why it's pretty much 100% necessary to use DB3D so that Marth takes a step back putting more space there.

No I was confused because I though he mean't Peach can interrupt sideB on HIT. It's not really called interrupting if you do it OoS. It's just punishing a crappy thing to do in that situation.

She can at times *sigh*

You can sdi the last hit of db but not the first 3 hits. The first 3 hits of db have no hitlag and you can only sdi in hitlag. You could however normal di out of it similar to how you can just hold up to escape Pikachu's dsmash. Maybe that's what you're doing.

Pretty much this.
Related: If you know you're about to get hit by DB, assuming they do the lazy version (SSSS) you can hold up and into Marth and have a pretty good chance of getting out after the second hit/landing a super quick aerial (see above). It's stupid =(
(has to be poorly spaced though).

 

[infiniteV115]

BDACUS says all inputs are in before the buffer window is over so it'll be the same length every time.

I knew it. I was told otherwise by a dude from my region.

But he has also told me false things in the past like you have to be frame perfect for KPrime mashing to be effective, or that if I don't 'buffer dash attacks properly' when I'm using the DAL with ZSS then Marth can upB out.

 

[C.J.]

Now, if you only buffer MOST of the inputs and then the second C-stick input comes out after the buffer window, you can get different lengths. But if you buffer each of the inputs, then the game reads them all in order and starts doing what you told your character to do on the FAF.

 

[infiniteV115]

So I'm assuming regardless of whether you input the dash, up on C-stick and 2nd up on C-stick on frames 1, 3 and 7 respectively of the buffer window, or on frames 1, 1 and 9 respectively, the dash and the first C-stick input will come out on the FAF and the 2nd C-stick input will come out on the SAF, correct?

Is that how buffering works? Or does it maintain the amount of time between the inputs?

 

[C.J.]

Well, 1, 1, 9 wouldn't be possible I think (one action input per frame iirc).

But AFAIK what you outlined is consistent with everything I've tested/the only thing that makes sense. Nothing I know/have tested/have seen suggests that the time between inputs is preserved.