Brawl+ (Competitive Hacks): Codes, Videos, and Discussion (THREAD OUT OF DATE)

[Team Giza]

It's clear that you're not thinking along the lines of making the game more competitive, rather you want the game to be more fun for you.

L-canceling doesnt make the game more competitive in the long run, it only does it the short term. We need to make a game with more situations and options if we are gonna make the game stay competitive in the long run. Random technical barriers are not gonna help with this. If anything they are going to hurt it because it makes the game less likable by a wide variety of potential players of brawl+. The more players, the more competition, the more competition the faster people learn new tricks and improve their play styles. Once again, its better to work on making the game have more situations and more reason options available then adding technical barriers for no reason.

Another major point here is that auto L-canceling will take up less code (even if just slightly). This will give us a bit more room to put in more important features. And from what I have been hearing l-canceling code causes issues online with desyncs because they l-cancel on one side but not on the other. I am not sure of this online problem but I have seen people say something about it awhile back. In order to have the same standard offline as online it seems even more of a no brainier to have the automatic version on.

Technicality is one of the best elements of a technical game.

Wow... just... wow.

 

[zxeon]

Ok. Then tell your supporters to do the same.

I recognize characters are better than others. With that logic, you are saying that the characters in melee and 64 were equal because they all had to l cancel equally, but in brawl some characters are better than others because some dont have to l cancel....

Please answer the parts of my posts that was directed at you. You have been avoiding it for too long

Avoiding what(No, you seriously are going to have to point it out to me.)? That same tired reason you post every time this comes up? Why don't you save me the trouble and go ahead and post my response from when you first posted about that?

 

[MBlaze]

Seriously.... tl;dr...

 

[kupo15]

Avoiding what(No, you seriously are going to have to point it out to me.)? That same tired reason you post every time this comes up? Why don't you save me the trouble and go ahead and post my response from when you first posted about that?

I would post that response but I havent gotten it yet.

Answer me this:

"Are you ok that there is auto l canceling in the game already?"

I want a yes or no. Thats it. No long explanation about how characters are not created equal to beat around the bush. yes...or no?

You also didnt respond to these:

(first bolded) Well lets see, top melee players are in favor of auto l canceling. In fact, making broad statements like this is the most idiot thing I has ever read. yea, because noone will favor auto l canceling..

(underline) Ok. Lag canceling works whether its manual or auto.

(second bold) It remedies the situation because it gives those without the luxury of auto l canceled moves auto l canceled moves whereas the characters with auto l canceled moves still have the adv of having auto l canceled moves even with manual l canceling.

Seriously.... tl;dr...

Srsly..what does that mean?

 

[zxeon]

I would post that response but I havent gotten it yet.

Answer me this:

"Are you ok that there is auto l canceling in the game already?"

I want a yes or no. Thats it. No long explanation about how characters are not created equal to beat around the bush. yes...or no?

You also didnt respond to these:




Srsly..what does that mean?

Concerning auto-canceling being in the game already: yes, I am ok with it. Check again I think I did respond to those points.

 

[kupo15]

Concerning auto-canceling being in the game already: yes, I am ok with it. Check again I think I did respond to those points.

If you are ok with it being in the game, why are you against this hack? It makes no sense how you oppose this soo greatly when it is in the game and you are ok with it.

 

[MBlaze]

Srsly..what does that mean?

It means too long; didn't read.

 

[kupo15]

It means too long; didn't read.

well that is just great. You will have great credibility arguing here without reading what ppl have to say.

 

[storm92]

well that is just great. You will have great credibility arguing here without reading what ppl have to say.

kupo, the reason he didn't read was because he knew the giant wall of text would completely discredit what he's said and believes, as the logic you use tends to prevail over pure opinion.
I don't see why people who support L-canceling are against auto-L-canceling. It's a button press. We used to have to hold in towards the ledge to grab onto it in Melee, but Brawl took that out and replaced it with an auto-snap. I realize that we are editing the game here and there wasn't much we could do about it then, but we have the chance here to better the existing L-canceling system. It's really just unnecessary.

And MuBa, his name is leafgreen, not greenleaf. ._.

 

[zxeon]

If you are ok with it being in the game, why are you against this hack? It makes no sense how you oppose this soo greatly when it is in the game and you are ok with it.

Some characters are better than others at some things (this sentence sounds oddly familiar.)cry me a river, but having auto-canceling doesn't make them the best characters in the game. I'm fine with the idea of some characters having almost lagless airials, I just believe nothing should just be handed to the other characters just becaus those few set the curve. On the extreme end of this logic one would propose to give everyone multiple jumps and that's just favoritism towards characters that can't jump more than once in midair. See where I'm going with this?

Oh by the way Storm92 auto snap is one of the worst things to happen to Smash Brothers and no one likes it at all. '08ers by golly.

 

[storm92]

Some characters are better than others at some things (this sentence sounds oddly familiar.)cry me a river, but having auto-canceling doesn't make them the best characters in the game. I'm fine with the idea of some characters having almost lagless airials, I just believe nothing should just be handed to the other characters just becaus those few set the curve. On the extreme end of this logic one would propose to give everyone multiple jumps and that's just favoritism towards characters that can't jump more than once in midair. See where I'm going with this?

Honestly, that's an absurd insinuation. Not to mention completely off-topic. Please stop the arguing like a politician by making bad connections and then trying to use it as justification for your argument. Just propose your point and back it up. So far I haven't seen the second one happen, but much too much of the former.
Also, I hope you realize all characters are getting L-canceling. We're not picking favorites and giving the chars who don't need it (Sheik, MK, etc.) a "nerf" per say to bring them down while boosting the slower characters, it's simply L-canceling. Look at Sheik or Peach in Melee. Both of them were high tier, yet didn't use L-canceling at all really. We're just making L-canceling an easier, more practical application in the game.
As kupo has highlighted over several times, L-Canceling wasn't the thing that separated skilled players from the simply experienced. In Melee and even more so in Brawl, due to an improved DI system, the good players will stand out by being able to read other player's and continue to combo them as well as the defending player being able to DI correctly out of combo opportunities.
Once again though, to get the point across: we are not bringing other characters up to the level where characters not needing L-canceling are by implementing auto L-canceling. You are unconsciously arguing against the very essence of L-canceling, which is to cut the lag on laggy moves and speed up play.

By the way zxeon, I may be an '08er but at least I don't have to resort to petty "insults" (if you could even call it that) to try to get a point across. Try using persuasion instead. Maybe with valid points?

 

[kupo15]

Some characters are better than others at some things (this sentence sounds oddly familiar.)cry me a river, but having auto-canceling doesn't make them the best characters in the game. I'm fine with the idea of some characters having almost lagless airials, I just believe nothing should just be handed to the other characters just becaus those few set the curve. On the extreme end of this logic one would propose to give everyone multiple jumps and that's just favoritism towards characters that can't jump more than once in midair. See where I'm going with this?

No I dont. And your beating around the bush by saying some characters are better than others with this technique. Like MK deserves auto l canceling and ganon or pit or whomever does not. I think that its such bull how you think that what separates good characters from bad characters is having auto l canceled aerials. We already have attributes like speed, power, size, weight, projectiles and such to determine where characters are placed on the tier list. I never thought Id see the day when a fundamental, universal aspect of the game play favorites to add to how "good" a character is. Its like saying "mk is a good character which is why he was programmed to have auto teching"

(bolded) Those few? Sorry, but the curve has been made throughout the cast, not 5 characters. I see you still haven't done the research....

And you said its best to keep with tradition and whats been working? Well, that would mean that not even one aerial should have l canceling programmed in it. And you are ok that characters have auto l canceling in even though it doesnt "stick with tradition" and it wasnt a factor that "made characters better than each other" so I am confused....

Speaking of auto teching, your making it sound like auto l canceling will break the game similarly to how auto teching would. I never knew that one button that is timed on your watch, that you control and will work 99.9% of the time and that you do all the time without question would add depth and skill to the game. This is news to me...

And honestly, who is your target audience? From what was said before about separating noobs from advanced, it appears that noobs are a part of your argument. An advanced player can beat a noob without lag canceling. And you know what..even in brawl without l canceling, advanced players are still beating noobs and it has nothing to do with l canceling I can tell you that. So if advanced players are still beating noobs without manual l canceling now, then what is separating them?

On the flip side if your not talking about noobs (I really hope your argument doesn't include noobs at all), what separates advanced players from advanced players in brawl without manual l canceling? How is it that Ninjalink's diddy can beat m2k's MK or Azen beating the top MK players with lucario? Or how is it that Anther can compete at a high level with Pikachu?

Some stats:
MK= 3 auto l canceled aerials
Diddy= 2 auto l canceled aerials
Lucario= 1 auto l canceled aerial
Pikachu= 0 auto l canceled aerials

 

[zxeon]

Oh, Storm you kill me, but wasn't that kind of long for a joke? I think you might be a little confused here. I am not the one that has to prove anything here L-Canceling has been proven to add to the game (despite how small and insignificant some would make that difference out to be). You are the one that must prove how just putting characters on turbo without asking anything of the player will even add to anything.

Btw Kupo let me just make sure we are on the same page here. When you say auto-cancel do you mean moves that have very landing little lag, moves that end before the character touches the ground, or do you actually group those two things under auto-canceling?

 

[SketchHurricane]

Well this could go on forever since no one is willing to concede. The best thing to do is sum up the pros of each side.

(this will continue to update, unless I end up making a thread)

Manual L:
Pros:
- speeds up the game
- buffs offensive play
- rewards technical skill
- time-tested game mechanic
Cons:
- unfairly unnecessary by some chars (see auto canceled aerials)
- skill requirement arguably moot
- adds a foreign mechanic

Auto L:
Pros:
- speeds up the game
- buffs offensive play
- prevents technical barrier
- better wi-fi performance
- less code (significantly?)
Cons:
- laggy chars get better for free


Notes
Depth:
The "depth" argument is null - depth is created by options, and since one will always choose to L-cancel rather than not, there is no added option, and thus no added depth. The only real argument is whether or not L-canceling is needed as a technical barrier.

Button Requirement:
Saying that pressing a single button doesn't require significant skill is a bad point. In reality, our entire ability to play relies on us constantly timing our button presses. Doing the right thing, but at the wrong time, will get you killed. Manual L rewards consistency and timing, which is undoubtedly a good thing.

Skill Separation:
The need to further separate player skill in Brawl is arguable. The success of veterans has shown us that this is unnecessary. What Brawl really needs is speed and depth, and L-cancel delivers on the speed front. However, this doesn't mean that further skill separation would not be beneficial if created.

My conclusion:
Though Manual L-cancel seems to have more cons, the cons are generally weak IMO, and the extra (last two) pros on the Auto side are questionable to the grand scheme of things.

 

[zxeon]

Thanks for making sense of all that Sketch. Lets all just weigh the pros and cons for a little bit.

My head hurts.

 

[kupo15]

Btw Kupo let me just make sure we are on the same page here. When you say auto-cancel do you mean moves that have very landing little lag, moves that end before the character touches the ground, or do you actually group those two things under auto-canceling?

Auto canceled aerials= Finishing a move before landing
Auto l canceled aerials= moves with l canceling programmed in them

I know what im talking about

I also edited my last post zxeon to add some stuff, please read it

Hurricane: You should create a new thread about this debate

2 things: Lag canceling provides speed, it doesn't matter how you get there since both have the same result. This is under the Pro auto side.

Also, you forgot to mention that characters have moves with auto l canceling programmed which makes manual l canceling not as balanced a mechanic as auto l canceling which has been proved many times over. This should be added in your Pro manual. "Like it rewards consistency of timing, but some characters can compete without l canceling because its programmed in their moveset...." Or something like that

 

[storm92]

Your mentality is actually somewhat humorous to me, I must say. I put points forward, type out a few paragraphs detailing why my opinion actually has merit behind it, but then because you have nothing left to work off of, you try to ad hominem argument your way out of this. Stop trying to talk to me like a kid, as I believe my arguing is slightly more mature than anything you're posting here. I'm not the one making personal jabs in order to discredit the opposition.
I believe we've outlined how it would add to the "anything". That might be in how it is an unnecessary button press, DI is more important for proving skill (therefore nullifying a so-called point of your side), less coding area would be taken up, and Wi-Fi might allow for auto L-canceling over the glitches we have now. Ever played Melee? Notice how even if L-canceling is a habit to you, it still takes more steps to be able to combo? Yeah, that's what we'd have in Brawl+.
Honestly, I don't see how I continue to argue with you. You don't argue, you just ask senseless rhetorical questions without once proving anything for your side.

Now since two can play this game, you are now the one that must prove, I don't know, a single argument.

EDIT: Hurricane, might want to change your wording slightly as it does bias the Manual L-cancel side in saying auto L-cancel "prevents a technical barrier". That's completely untrue, as L-canceling is a reflex, not a skill.

 

[Team Giza]

How many people have been using the l-cancel code online? Because awhile back I know I heard some people complaining about how it would desync sometimes when using it online. Can anyone confirm/unconfirm this?

 

[zxeon]

I'm tired of posting the same thing and people posting the same bull****. go back and read the thread from the begging an you'll see this same argument a few pages back. I don't owe anything to someone who hasn't fully educated themselves on the content of this matter. Storm92.

Here's a point for you storm I'll site president: Melee, 64.
What have you got, Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo?

 

[SketchHurricane]

EDIT: Hurricane, might want to change your wording slightly as it does bias the Manual L-cancel side in saying auto L-cancel "prevents a technical barrier". That's completely untrue, as L-canceling is a reflex, not a skill.

I disagree. It might become a reflex after mastery, but mastering the timing in different situations (shot hop, full hop, whether or not it's fast-falled, ect) is where the skill comes in.

I will, however, edit my post by adding in some pros on each side that I overlooked.

 

[kupo15]

I'm tired of posting the same thing and people posting the same bull****. go back and read the thread from the begging an you'll see this same argument a few pages back. I don't owe anything to someone who hasn't fully educated themselves on the content of this matter. Storm92. wut?

Fixed:



You are quite an excellent debater zxeon....

What says you about this?

And honestly, who is your target audience? From what was said before about separating noobs from advanced, it appears that noobs are a part of your argument. An advanced player can beat a noob without lag canceling. And you know what..even in brawl without l canceling, advanced players are still beating noobs and it has nothing to do with l canceling I can tell you that. So if advanced players are still beating noobs without manual l canceling now, then what is separating them?

On the flip side if your not talking about noobs (I really hope your argument doesn't include noobs at all), what separates advanced players from advanced players in brawl without manual l canceling? How is it that Ninjalink's diddy can beat m2k's MK or Azen beating the top MK players with lucario? Or how is it that Anther can compete at a high level with Pikachu?

Some stats:
MK= 3 auto l canceled aerials
Diddy= 2 auto l canceled aerials
Lucario= 1 auto l canceled aerial
Pikachu= 0 auto l canceled aerials

Sketch: I think that post should be the OP of another thread. I feel its going to get lost here ^_^

 

[storm92]

zxeon, I've been updated with this thread. I'm sorry I've only been able to check it a few times this week, so I didn't see your other posts where you most likely did this same thing.
How am I not fully educated on this matter? This is the logic I don't understand. In the past few posts I've laid out several examples of how auto L-cancel would help the game competitively, yet you say you're the one talking with someone uneducated when you can't lay out a simple point.
Not one.
Also, why are you still trying for the ad hominem? It's not going to work. You're attempting to discredit me by having me say something stupid by egging me on, but it's not working and will continue to not work. I'm pretty sure kupo's had to type the same things over and over, yet he does. Why can't you? Arguing isn't about saying something and moving on, you have to provide examples for your beliefs and points to persuade people. Right now all you're attempting to do is to deflect and dodge.

EDIT: @Hurricane- It is slightly different in situations, but you don't actually think about it eventually after practicing. You see your character starting to hit the ground and subconsciously you hit L/R to L-cancel. If there is a skill involved, it is minimal and things like DI are much more demanding. Don't get me wrong though, I agree with your post.

2nd EDIT:

Here's a point for you storm I'll site president: Melee, 64.
What have you got, Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo?

What does that even mean?

 

[zxeon]

Lol nice use of the scorethrough.

I'm afraid I have some more bull**** for you.

What I think of that?
...

I lost my train of thought. Sorry.

 

[Team Giza]

Here's a point for you storm I'll site president: Melee, 64.
What have you got, Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo?

Have you ever played Melee or 64 with the cancels being automatic? Your post really doesn't make sense. And personally if SSF2T is the example for our side then I think we are ahead since people have been playing that game competitive in tournaments all over the world for over a decade. Not that I understand why you state any of this. Actually I don't even know WTF you mean.

 

[kupo15]

What I think of that?
...

I lost my train of thought. Sorry.

Translated: Your right and I dont want to concede so I won't respond and hope it goes away. I have nothing that can refute that.

Have you ever played Melee or 64 with the cancels being automatic? Your post really doesn't make sense. And personally if SSF2T is the example for our side then I think we are ahead since people have been playing that game competitive in tournaments all over the world for over a decade. Not that I understand why you state any of this. Actually I don't even know WTF you mean.

Seconded

 

[zxeon]

Have you ever played Melee or 64 with the cancels being automatic? Your post really doesn't make sense. And personally if SSF2T is the example for our side then I think we are ahead since people have been playing that game competitive in tournaments all over the world for over a decade. Not that I understand why you state any of this. Actually I don't even know WTF you mean.

My bad, I confused Street Fighter Turbo with Hyper Fighting somehow.

And I really did have a good response kupo I was typing it out and just lost it. I swear it was THIS big.

 

[MuBa]

How about we make a code that will give everybody like 300 frames of landlag and warlock punch as their only attack?

 

[zxeon]

Have you ever played Melee or 64 with the cancels being automatic? Your post really doesn't make sense. And personally if SSF2T is the example for our side then I think we are ahead since people have been playing that game competitive in tournaments all over the world for over a decade. Not that I understand why you state any of this. Actually I don't even know WTF you mean.

What I meant there was that a manual L-Cancel worked then and will probably work in Brawl as well.

****, My Wii remote is dead looks like that's it for me Later.

 

[aho43]

I spent the past few days messing around with brawl hacks. I played with meep, infernoOmni, and g-regulate. all very well known in the MD/VA smash scene for brawl. we all agreed that we preferred s-cancelling to l-cancelling. can't say anything about auto l-cancels as there is no code for that yet. s-cancelled brawl was definitely superior to l-cancelled. if you're looking for a game that allows for more shield pressure and offensive play, s-cancel satisfies that better than l-cancelling. the laggy moves in the game are still not very usable even when l-cancelled, primarily due to the low amount of shield stun in brawl and the fact that grabs have super armor.

 

[Yeroc]

+1

This is exactly what I tried to say (in fewer words) a month ago.

 

[SketchHurricane]

I made a thread, but I'll continue to read here for more insight. Hopefully it won't get closed because it "should be in here" But I wouldn't be surprised.

 

[Oracle]

Basically, what leafgreen has been saying is that they're almost exactly the same. I ask then, why not just put in manual?

 

[MuBa]

Basically, what leafgreen has been saying is that they're almost exactly the same. I ask then, why not just put in manual?

B/c he believes it's a pointless task, and some characters require the hard work of Manual L-canceling while the others don't....which imo is not a valid argument since everyone who supports manual L-Cancel is ready for pressing L.

 

[leafgreen386]

Basically, what leafgreen has been saying is that they're almost exactly the same. I ask then, why not just put in manual?

I ask then, why not just put in auto? If you agree that they're effectively the same, then you shouldn't have an issue with it.

What I meant there was that a manual L-Cancel worked then and will probably work in Brawl as well.

It was an l-cancel. That was what mattered. You're arguing that you know this "works." We know that halving lag "works," too. We also know that people almost always got this halved lag, and that there was no time when a person didn't attempt to halve their lag. If it helps, stop thinking about this as l-canceling, and just as speeding up the game through half-lag aerials. If you didn't have to press a button to l-cancel in melee and 64 you would never have thought about the idea of adding that button press in brawl+. It's just a silly concept.

B/c he believes it's a pointless task, and some characters require the hard work of Manual L-canceling while the others don't....which imo is not a valid argument since everyone who supports manual L-Cancel is ready for pressing L.

So just because someone is willing to press a button every time for something means that they should have to? I don't mind l-canceling in melee. I just do it. If manual l-canceling got implemented into brawl, then it would be exactly the same (at least after I'd gotten used to pressing L all the way in >_>). However, why go through the extra hassle of it all when we can have a shorter code that actually works online and will achieve the same end result as the manual l-cancel code?

I'd respond to a bunch more posts, but I'm leaving shortly and those posts have already been sufficiently buried...

 

[sagemoon]

I spent the past few days messing around with brawl hacks. I played with meep, infernoOmni, and g-regulate. all very well known in the MD/VA smash scene for brawl. we all agreed that we preferred s-cancelling to l-cancelling. can't say anything about auto l-cancels as there is no code for that yet. s-cancelled brawl was definitely superior to l-cancelled. if you're looking for a game that allows for more shield pressure and offensive play, s-cancel satisfies that better than l-cancelling. the laggy moves in the game are still not very usable even when l-cancelled, primarily due to the low amount of shield stun in brawl and the fact that grabs have super armor.

lol how a notable player says something then is ignored. I know what you mean though about the lag time not matching up with shield stun. However, I think what the people are trying to do is to add shieldstun/hitstun to attacks, then deciding whether or not l-canceling should be auto...

 

[aho43]

lol how a notable player says something then is ignored. I know what you mean though about the lag time not matching up with shield stun. However, I think what the people are trying to do is to add shieldstun/hitstun to attacks, then deciding whether or not l-canceling should be auto...

adding hitstun is cool with me.

also to the people supporting "manual" l-cancelling. the timing for the shield input isn't very good. l-cancelling by itself was not what made melee technical. being able to string together attacks accurately and quickly is what made melee technical. stuff like wd outta shield and pivot smashes, pivot tilts, wavelanding, dash dancing, bla bla, is what made melee more technical than brawl.

the tech skill in brawl is mostly in spacing, shielddroping, and buffering, and certain character specific techniques like mortar dashing and glide tossing. along with various b-move stuffs. l-cancelling won't make a big technical difference in the game.

if you really want to make brawl more technical lobby for the following things: running aerial momentum, longer initial dashes.

also the melee airdodge code is kinda meh. this is coming from a person who loves melee. brawl is better without it, melee airdodge that is.

s-cancel, hitstun, no tripping, those are the only existing codes out there that i like for making brawl faster.

 

[IM_A_HUSTLA]

only thing i dont like about the s-cancel is the ugly shield coming out

 

[jmlee337]

hey, hey, new hitstun code
http://board.gscentral.org/showpost.php?p=129282&postcount=2978

 

[kupo15]

hey, hey, new hitstun code
http://board.gscentral.org/showpost.php?p=129282&postcount=2978

Its been posted on the hitstun thread

 

[kupo15]

We have Auto l canceling folks

Auto L-Cancel: (Phantom wings)
80000000 80623320
80000001 00000000
60000006 00000000
60000003 00000001
4A001000 00000000
4A101001 00000000
36000000 00000032
58010000 00000004
DE000000 80008180
58010000 00000060
DE000000 80008180
92210002 0000007C
92210003 00000014
58010000 000000C4
92210004 00000010
4A000000 805A0100
92210005 00000000
88A00004 00000005
4A001002 00000000
30000036 00000018
4A001003 00000000
92210005 00000040
88900005 00000004
94210005 00000040
E2000001 00000000
80100001 00000008
62000000 00000001
E200000F 00000000
80000001 00000000
80100000 00000244
62000000 00000000
E0000000 80008000